America is "Joe the plumber" And that's the problem!(repost)

[R_P_A_S]

TomK a OI RevLeft memeber contact me, and ask for me to post this thread here.

First of all let me begin by saying that I'm using "Joe The Plumber" as the an example mindset of the typical working and middle class American, and not THE ACTUAL person. We all know he's not licensed plumber and that he owes back taxes. Lets leave out his actual legitimacy and focus on the question and issue at hand.

+_+_+_+_+_+_+

During the third and final debate Barack Obama and John McCain were discussing taxes and health care, they used "Joe a plumber" as an example, a man who wants to start his own plumbing business.

I don't think I'm wrong or too far from the truth when I say that "Joe" represents many American's dreams and hopes, To one day be able to start and run their own business. I mean isn't this the main road towards the "American Dream"?

This is what we are taught since we are children and through college, this is what most of us pursuit till we die. To be independent, Achieve financial freedom and be successful via the "petty bourgeoisie" way.

After all, entrepreneurship and small business benefits Capitalism way more than the working class people in general. You can argue that they create jobs for people but who's working for you? Just more "Joes." Ultimately It just keeps breeding individuality & greed over and over.

America is where Capitalism is supreme king! Is not like other industralized countries where there are large democratic socialist parties or the economy is a mixed of socialist policies and capitalism. Most Americans don't know anything outside their economic model and consider welfare services, hight taxes, nationalization and their government alien to them.

I notice that many politicians love to use the word "BIG GOVERNMENT" to scare people away from the idea of universal Healthcare or any other socialist models and practices. Obviously in America Small government means more free enterprise and more "cut throat" capitalism. Then again this government is not a peoples government its just an elitist class of, capitalist. So there for is not meant to work for you and me. In a country with only two official political parties, with the same ideology (capitalism) which means NOTHING CHANGES for the well being of the majority, can you blame people for not wanting to trust "their government" with their healthcare? I think not.

SO! how do you get Americans, or all this "Joes" to realized that striving to become "independent" is not the answer to their problems. BUT the problem... Competition and individualism, the whole concept of "making it on your own and that one is free start their own business" bullshit that has millions of people trying to fit inside this tiny little door to "financial freedom and independence."

How does one make working Americans, who have been breaking their backs for years, realized that they should drop everything they worked towards and join their fellow workers in unity and demand REAL CHANGE, for all. And stop playing into this illusion that everyone "can make it"
Stop being convinced that this is all there is to life, The Capitalist way.


HOW?

I'm being realistic. I'm not asking the father of 3 and 15 years away from retirement to drop everything and start or join a "marxist revolution" BUT ask fucking questions for fuck sakes. Demand change OUTSIDE the capitalist model.


It hasn't worked.
Is not working for all.
It's not meant to work for all,
It's working for a mere 2% of the world.

[Bud Struggle]

This is one of the most insightful posts on the American system that I've ever read on RevLeft. The OP has naied down the "American problem" when it comes to Socialism or Communism. Both are "bad words" in the American lexicon--they mean the biggest of big government bureauocracy, no financial gowth and a static life for all involved.

Personally, I pretty much identify with Joe the Plumber and his view of the American dream--work hard and with a little luck you can succeed. As a poor kid of immigrant working class parents--I was expected to NOT follow in the footsteps of my father and work in a factory and join the union. I would have been a disapointment to my parents if I did. My parents did the best they could with who they could grasp of the American dream and I (and my brother) were expected to fo figure out how Capitalism in America worked and succeed. Being a "worker" in our family was never an end in itself it was a path to financial independance and success. It was my job to finish the success that my father started.

And I think that's the path most Americans follow and that separates us from Socialism--though many (most) people fail inreaching the dream of financial success--they like it to be an option. The idea of "class warfare" I think is vastly alien to the American psyche. My father never thought of himself as a working class proletarian--it sould have been insulting to him if you told him that--he just did what he did so his children could rise above that lifestyle.

When I was a poor HS or college kid, I certainly never thought of myself as comming from the proletarian class--though by the Socialist definition I certainly did.

And I don't think that was just me and my family--the American deeam is about finding independant financial success, and just enough people succeed in every generation to keep that hope alive for the next generation.

America has two identical parties not because there aren't any other options out there, but because that's all they want. The best and the brightest go into Democratic or Republican politics and they win office and they keep things on the status quo. That's not to say that there aren't bright people ibn the CPUSA or the SWP--but those organizations have a major disconnect with the American people.

There's a lot of freedom in the American way of life for those willing to go after it--and unlike Europe America is still a frontier nation. America is going to have to loose it's identity before Socialism could succeed here.

[RGacky3]

The "American dream" is ultimately the only dream available to people, which is why everyone has it, all the other options have been beaten off the table, the Socialist option was essencially destroyed in the 20's with the help of the FBI, and that dickehad lenin.

The American dream is what Americans want because they don't know any better.

What socialists need to is to Socialise that dream, that "american way of life" culture is manufactured, nad has been over the last couple dacades, its not natural.

What Socialists need to do is stop looking to Europe or Latin America and copy their style, and go back to what Socialists did in the 10s and 20s, the Origional Socialist party, the IWW, the smaller unions, make socialism for Americans, take joe the plumbers dream and make it a social dream, rather than an individual one. Instead of rising above the masses rise with them.

The Capitalist class in America have a better propeganda system than stalin could ever dream of, evidence of that is how the bialout was called Socialist.

America's "identity" is manufactured, and if done right can be turned on to Socialism.

One good step in that direction is most people are exreamly sinical about hte US state, and leftist have don some good in helping people realize that, Europeans still for the most part believe in their government, the next step is for them to be sinical about the American dream and Capitalism, which I can see happening, and is happening, the step after that is showing them the option of workers organizing and taking control themselves.

But step one for American Socialists is to stop trying to be European socialists or latin american socialists and stop treating americans with disdain, and understanding the way people think based on what they know and showing them another way.

[R_P_A_S]

This is one of the most insightful posts on the American system that I've ever read on RevLeft. The OP has naied down the "American problem" when it comes to Socialism or Communism. Both are "bad words" in the American lexicon--they mean the biggest of big government bureauocracy, no financial gowth and a static life for all involved.

Personally, I pretty much identify with Joe the Plumber and his view of the American dream--work hard and with a little luck you can succeed. As a poor kid of immigrant working class parents--I was expected to NOT follow in the footsteps of my father and work in a factory and join the union. I would have been a disapointment to my parents if I did. My parents did the best they could with who they could grasp of the American dream and I (and my brother) were expected to fo figure out how Capitalism in America worked and succeed. Being a "worker" in our family was never an end in itself it was a path to financial independance and success. It was my job to finish the success that my father started.

And I think that's the path most Americans follow and that separates us from Socialism--though many (most) people fail inreaching the dream of financial success--they like it to be an option. The idea of "class warfare" I think is vastly alien to the American psyche. My father never thought of himself as a working class proletarian--it sould have been insulting to him if you told him that--he just did what he did so his children could rise above that lifestyle.

When I was a poor HS or college kid, I certainly never thought of myself as comming from the proletarian class--though by the Socialist definition I certainly did.

And I don't think that was just me and my family--the American deeam is about finding independant financial success, and just enough people succeed in every generation to keep that hope alive for the next generation.

America has two identical parties not because there aren't any other options out there, but because that's all they want. The best and the brightest go into Democratic or Republican politics and they win office and they keep things on the status quo. That's not to say that there aren't bright people ibn the CPUSA or the SWP--but those organizations have a major disconnect with the American people.

There's a lot of freedom in the American way of life for those willing to go after it--and unlike Europe America is still a frontier nation. America is going to have to loose it's identity before Socialism could succeed here.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I don't claim to be very knowledgeable on theories and all the 'mambo-jumbo'. I, like you came up in a working class family, but my father never consider him self working class and wanted us to achieve what he couldn't etc. fair enough.

Life in general in America is good. But it comes at a price, like any other place. But "the American way" of life depends or should I say it heavily relies on the unfair free market policies of exploitation it imposes on the undeveloped world. It's also unfair for Americans. The current system's main objective is profits, not the development of life. It even neglects and throws out on the street their own people, I'm talking about Ford Motors moving their manufacturing plants to Mexico because labor is cheaper and with NAFTA labor laws are more lax. (To use one good example.)

RGacky3, I like what you said about the successful propaganda machine the ruling class has. The media, the communications sector its just formidable to say the least. It's an entire beast of its own. So successful and so efficient that not even Marx OR Lenin saw it coming. Unfortunately some of my 'comrades' can't seem to understand this as they hold on dearly to The Communist Manifesto word, and ways as it were written last week. DON'T get me wrong, the little book packs a BIG punch and it's very relevant today but it's shouldn't be treated as a prophecy or divine word. In other words don't go running up the rose garden with a stick and machete.

The issue is the same. but times are different, which calls for a fresh approach.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

And your alternative would be?

[R_P_A_S]

And your alternative would be?

not sure yet. but I'm positive that It's not going to be dogmatic.

[PRC-UTE]

RPAS is developing into a good comrade. He gets the subjective factors like cultural attitudes and also is developing a solid grasp of theory.


and unlike Europe America is still a frontier nation.

Just curious: what year do you think this is?



America is going to have to loose it's identity before Socialism could succeed here.

You have a point. American comrades have to begin by building their movement up amongst those most left behind by the American Dream. They have to identify their social base and pursue it with vigour. And I do'nt mean university students.

[R_P_A_S]

RPAS is developing into a good comrade. He gets the subjective factors like cultural attitudes and also is developing a solid grasp of theory.



Just curious: what year do you think this is?



You have a point. American comrades have to begin by building their movement up amongst those most left behind by the American Dream. They have to identify their social base and pursue it with vigour. And I do'nt mean university students.

Thanks for the kind words. I think you just help me realized why I have this views and i guess like you mentioned "grasp." Really quick let me tell you why I feel the member "TomK" identified with my thread. Because maybe we are both of the same origins, working class, but with conformed or even reactionary parents. Now I'm 27 years old. I ONLY started to learn and read about left wing politics 2 and a half years ago. So pretty much 25 years of my life all I've ever known was the capitalist class model. I am also a first generation immigrant, I've seen the effects of NAFTA in Mexico. I grew up in both an urban sprawl, like Mexico City and in farms and rural towns like Aguascalientes and Zacatecas-Mexico. I spent my late teens and half of college in SOUTH FLORIDA! out of all places. all this time I've been a child of working parents ages 53 and 55 who are struggling with a mortgage, and just BAD, BAD financial decisions and ventures. No pension, no fucking golden years. So "if i get the cultural factors" is because I lived them and I am constantly around them, EVERYDAY. Now in southern California.

I'm ready and anxious for politics to get back to the people. BUT with right wing politicians being so conservative and a class above me and my family, friends and co-workers I feel alien to it...

AND with the left wing fantasizing about personality cults and "dialectics" or arguing if Che was better than Mao or if Stalin was good or bad.. or Trotsky whatever.. I FEEL ALIEN TO THEM!

I just want SIMPLE, straight talk and action. I know. I know easier said than done.

[Plagueround]

America is going to have to loose it's identity before Socialism could succeed here.

If I had to pick the one thing I think has the potential to radicalize the working class, it would be the steady loss of jobs to other countries. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think any less of the people that do take those jobs, but to continue embracing capitalism while shifting all the capital out of the hands of your people will only create disaster. My only hope is the American people don't fall into the trap, blame the right people in the situation and don't continue to develop a protectionist hatred. This crisis has the potential to radicalize in either direction. :(




AND with the left wing fantasizing about personality cults and "dialectics" or arguing if Che was better than Mao or if Stalin was good or bad.. or Trotsky whatever.. I FEEL ALIEN TO THEM!

I just want SIMPLE, straight talk and action. I know. I know easier said than done.


You hit the nail on the head so hard it hurts.

[Wraith]

You socialists are so fucking stupid its too funny :rolleyes:

[Qayin]

Troll moar Wraith
Enlighten us please

[Schrödinger's Cat]

You socialists are so fucking stupid its too funny :rolleyes:

I find that calling someone "so fucking stupid" should require of the user proper grammar.

[GPDP]

To those claim that the American people are responsible for

1) extreme level of corruption and dominance by corporations and the ruling class
2) the constant threat of misery for common people,

please let me know if this isn't like blaming the rape-victim for the rape? Thanks.

Sadly, I usually get that shit from liberals, who think they're above other Americans because they just so happen to not be so susceptible to certain reactionary ideas like religious fundamentalism and the like. They more than make up their relative progressiveness with their naivete, though.

[Pogue]

Yes, we need plain talking, I emphasis this myself. Make it relevant.