Who Gets Your Vote as.. - the patron saint of capitalism?

[Comrade Gorley]

Without a doubt, my vote goes to:

http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/images/rockwell.gif

George Lincoln Rockwell
(1918-1967)

Son of vaudeville performer "Doc" Rockwell, he was the founder of the American Nazi Party. He hated Jews, blacks, Orientals, and everyone else not of Anglo-Saxon descent. He was also an uber-conservative, who was violently opposed to all social protest. On top of that, although he faithfully went to church every Sunday and wrote a "Battle Hymn", Rockwell admitted in private that Christianity was all a facade used to stimulate the crowds- or, if you will, an "opiate for the masses". A while back, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation celebrated ther 50th aniversary by showing clips from their programs throughout the decades one week (the 50s on Monday, the 60s on Tuesday etc.) During the 60s was a controversial talk show/news program entitled "This Hour Has Seven Days". Rockwell was one of their most controversial guest stars, and in their clip (I have it taped) he admitted that, although he wasn't "a religious man", he said that if he was he would think Hitler was "the Second Coming". He also smoked a trademark corncob pipe to remind people of General MacArthur. He embodied brainless American patriotism.

Here is some information about him from the web:


Arrogant traitors parade through American streets burning American flags, and flying enemy Vietcong flags, the flags under which enemy troops are now killing American boys. I try to get the American Legion, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Birchers, Klan - anybody - to help stop this unspeakable outrage. Nobody will do a thing except talk about it. So I - George Lincoln Rockwell - go out and tear down the first enemy flags in the District of Columbia. And I go to jail for it! My brave lads in Los Angeles, Seattle, Dallas, New York - everywhere - keep tearing down the commie red flags - and going to jail! So the American Legion passes resolutions condemning us as "tied in with the Communists." So do the Birchers!

-"White Power", Chapter 1


"I called Rockwell at his Arlington, Virginia, headquarters and relayed PLAYBOY's request for an exclusive interview. After assuring himself that I wasn't Jewish, he guardedly agreed. I didn't tell him I was a Negro. Five days later, as my taxi pulled up in front of Rockwell's 'International Headquarters,' a nine-room white frame house in Arlington (since padlocked by the Internal Revenue Service, which is currently investigating the labyrinth of Nazi financial backing), I noticed a billboard-sized sign on the roof reading: WHITE MAN FIGHT -- SMASH THE BLACK REVOLUTION! I couldn't help wondering what kind of welcome I'd receive when they got a look at my non-Aryan complexion. I didn't have long to wait,- the khaki-clad duty guard at the door stiffened as I stepped out of the cab and up the front stairs. When I identified myself, he ushered me uncertainly inside and told me to wait nearby in what he called 'the shrine room,' a small, black walled chamber dimly lit by flickering red candles and adorned with American and Nazi flags, adjoining portraits of Adolf Hitler and George Washington, and a slightly larger, rather idealized painting of Rockwell himself -- a self Portrait. On the table beside my chair sat a crudely bound and printed copy of Rockwell's self-published autobiography, 'This Time the World'; I was leafing through it when a pair of uniformed 'storm troopers' loomed suddenly in the doorway, gave the Nazi salute and in formed me coolly that Commander Rockwell had ordered them to take me in one of the Party staff cars to his new personal headquarters.

"Fifteen minutes later, with me and my tape recorder in the back and with two chaperons in the front, the car turned into a narrow, tree-lined road, slowed down as it passed a NO TRESPASSING sign (stamped with a skull and crossbones) and a leashed Doberman watchdog, and finally pulled up in front of a white, 16-room farmhouse emblazoned at floor -- and second-story levels with four-foot-high red swastikas. About a dozen Nazis stared icily as the guards walked me past them and up the stairs to Rockwell's door, where a side-armed storm trooper frisked me expertly from head to toe. Within arm's reach, I noticed, was a wooden rack holding short combat lengths of sawed off iron pipe. Finding me 'clean,' the guard ceremoniously opened the door, stepped inside, saluted, said, 'Sieg heil!' -- echoed brusquely from within -- then stood aside and nodded permission for me to come ahead. I did.
-Alex Haley, from the famous "Playboy" interview


The distinction must be made, however, between "Christianity" as it is used and interpreted by white supremacists and legitimate, mainstream Christianity. No legitimate Christian theologian gives credence to the white supremacists' interpretation of Christian dogma.

Rockwell never viewed Christianity as anything more than a marketing tool. In fact, he despised Christianity and everything it represented. To him, Christianity was a "feminine" and weak religion. Notions of forgiveness and charity and loving one's enemies were anathema to him and he despised those who embraced those beliefs.

If Rockwell had any personal religious beliefs, they were closer to Germanic Odonism.
-www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/ 2003/1/23/140519.shtml

(As a Christian, I apologize for all the cappie bullshit done in the name of Jesus.)

Rockwell was eventually shot, not by a minority, but by fellow white supremist John Patler, who was kicked out of the ANP after accusing Rockwell of not being active enough. How the mighty have fallen.


(Edited by Comrade Gorley at 11:10 pm on May 6, 2003)

[hazard]

some interesting stuff

my vote would go to some capitalist racist sob too. I just don't give a face to the nme if I can help it. that way I can wadde through their ranks without any pangs of conscience.

[The Muckraker]

Let's not forget about Ayn Rand, though. She exemplifies capitalism right down to her whacko philosophy whose only adherents are privileged white kids with no real world experience.

[HankMorgan]

Quote: from The Muckraker on 1:59 am on May 6, 2003
Let's not forget about Ayn Rand, though. She exemplifies capitalism right down to her whacko philosophy whose only adherents are privileged white kids with no real world experience.

You beat me to it. When I saw the title of the thread I was going to add Rand to the list if she hadn't already been added. I like the way she understands the different philosophies and is able to predict the consequences of each. Rand predicted the great lootings of our time such as the tobacco settlement (I don't smoke and my Dad is suffocating from his 40yrs of smoking).

I read "Atlas Shrugged" in my mid-twenties and I'm still a fan now than I'm in my early forties. While I'm white, I'm certainly not privileged and I do have plenty of real world experience. I guess I just don't fit your stereotype, Mudraker.

[synthesis]

Me, I'm gonna go with....

http://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/june98/hitler.jpg

Hitler, of course! What better exemplifies capitalism than his imperialist aggression, vitriolic racism, and utter contempt for the working class?

“We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order.”

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/graphics1/AmericaNaziFlag.gif

[kidicarus20]

My vote goes to Ayn Rand

http://www.strangewords.com/archive/ayn.html

Is Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged really reviewable as literature?

Of course, on a surface level. It's a lengthy science fiction of the lengthy and wordy sort, with stories and characters. It has two glaring flaws which pull it from the realm of the literary. It is firstly almost unreadable for anyone with a brain, filled with weird, pathological agendas and bad writing. It is also a story masquerading as a philosophy. Ayn's strange brew of foiblistic belief and Bund politics is only truly accessable to the naive, the blind ignorant, or the benightedly self-interested. On one level, Atlas is an excellent polemic of individualism vs. collectivism, a critique of democratic/socialistic politics which falls off into shrill hyperbole. Rand's caricature of social/democratic forces is reminiscent of fascist propaganda of the 1920's and 1930's, with her silly-named, badly postured anti-capitalist stooge bad guys. Let us tally some points.

Capitalistic Fascism: One wonders if the bizarre capitalism Rand espouses is a Vision or merely a poke-in-the-eye-with-a-sharp-stick to the Bolsheviks who caused her to be booted out of the Soviet Union. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, Randian capitalism, with its Leader Principle of the natural leadership of the Competent Capitalists, and her "A is A" one-truth belief system, show a fascistic bend echoed in her propagandistic portrayal of the hobbling of the Brave Capitalists by the whining toadies of mediocrity and the collective good. The one thing Rand truly hated besides altruism was collectivism. She is clearly uncomfortable with the tenets and "weakness" of democracy. Fascism may be a strong label, but Rand's economics are forthrightly anti-democratic and exclusionary, with much regard for the Man At the Top and little for the masses beneath. Her "greed is good" philosophy is taken to ridiculous lengths in its simple minded equation of money making with competence to lead.

Intellectual Naa-Naaism: The smart folks, seeing the stupid democratic/collectivist world wishes to economically destroy them because it is "unfair" that individuals should become rich from their brilliance, take their toys and leave, letting the world sink into a medieval, Luddite squalor until it comes to its senses. Please. "Brilliant" people, so smart that they would let us millions die and our societies collapse until we would say that they were right and say we're sorry, please come back and shepherd us...this is sophistry without any of the cleverness.

Sham Philosophy: Rand's central tenet, that "A is A", the existence of one truth, is ridiculous to the point of absurdity. That you might simply define a problem, then look for the one correct answer, is an escapist philosophy with little practical or intellectual value. It is a reaction to the true complexity of the world, the distillation of the messy uncertainties down to an absurd and unsupportable level. "A is A" is a leap of faith more characteristic of the more fundamentalist religions than a reasoned philosophical tenet upon which to build any kind of a system.

Fetishism: Ayn's thinly veiled fetishism is sometimes silly, and sometimes a bit scary. Her vision of the eroticism of steel being poured is a kind of decadent version of Socialist Realist art, with its red glow of blast furnaces as "life giving as a sunrise". Perhaps Ayn's idea of a good time was a drive down to Pittsburg. There is also a continuous thread of nearly pathological sexuality in the sadomasichism of the book's characters. Rand fetishizes rape as a ritual of ownership, as the correct relatiionship of the Titan of industry with his women. Ayn women are surprisingly anti-feminist players, as mere vessels for the savage power of rich and brilliant men. Ayn Rand was a singularly strong woman, yet her male sexual totalitarianism shows some kind of deep conflict that belies it.

Cult of Selfishness: Most disturbing is Rand's disdain for altruism. To Ayn, altruism is evil incarnate. Her hatred of weakness is a libertarianism gone bad, a naked selfishness that may work if you're a have, but will not if you are a have-not. Commentators have made much of the hypocrisy of a woman who owed her life to the altruism of others in effecting her escape from the Soviet Union, disavowing the kindness of strangers when she no longer needed it. It seems that there is something within Ayn Rand which could not tolerate weakness in others, and herself. This something leveraged itself into a broader economic nihilism that only recognized the self interest of the individual. It is difficult to imagine with any desire a Randian world of greed and insularity, a world without charity and lacking in compassion. It is clear why so many high school and college kids have a fling with Randism. In the most selfish period of one's life, what is more natural than exploring a "philosophical" system built around selfishness?

Is this a philosophy? Not really. It is more of a set of rules-of-thumb to rationalize greed and pathological sef-interest. Is it morally bankrupt? No more so than fundamentalist religions, with their narrow-minded interpretations of ambiguous fabalistic parables. It is more of an intellectual bankruptcy, a shrill reaction to a complex world informed by a burning desire for money and a pathological "me first" worldview that disdains the weak. It is not a better-world vision, but a worse

[Liberty Lover]

Adam Smith gets my vote. He made a major contribution to the belief that the economic powers of governments should be limited and that there exists a natural order of liberty applicable to the economy. It was Smith who opened the way for industrialization and the emergence of modern capitalism in the 19th century.

kidicarus20,

Thanks for the paranoid propaganda article. It was a good laugh.

[von Mises]

I thought this was a serious topic but if people starting to call Hitler the saint of capitalism........

Von Mises gets my vote ex aeqo with Friedman.

[Liberty Lover]

DyerMaker's post was an exceedingly lame and ignorant attempt to discredit capitalism.

Economic activities in Germany were all brought under Nazi authority, with existing social, economic, and professional organizations taken over by individuals either already in the party or who would quickly join it. This is in stark contrast to the fundamental characteristics of capitalism that a minimum of government supervision is required in business affairs and that the government’s only role is to protect society from foreign attack and uphold the rights of private property.

However, the inevitable path communism takes towards the strict regimentation of national and individual lives, and the adjustment of conflicting interests by total subordination to the service of the state and unquestioning loyalty to its leader, is very much like Hitler’s fascist model.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 10:05 am on May 6, 2003)

[The Muckraker]

Liberty Lover,

Actually, capitalism has always depended upon the State to protect the Ruling Class. If your insistence is true, then please explain how George W. Bush's grandfather Prescott was able to profit so very much by doing business with the Nazis, business he continued to conduct even after war was declared. So much for the "patriotism" of capitalists, eh?

The facts are clear: US capitalists, like Prescott Bush, aided and abetted the Nazis every step of the way. There's nothing to argue about here. That's the historical fact. Prescott Bush's company was taken under the Trading With The Enemy Act. There simply is no denying this.

Somehow, capitalists made a ton of money in conditions you say are in "stark contrast" to what capitalism is all about. How can that be? It can be because you are demanding a type of capitalism which has never existed, and one which the capitalists themselves do not want. You're spouting philosphy with no basis in reality, it would seem. Pipe dreams have replaced the real world in your post.

I suggest you continue your studies and broaden your horizons a bit.

[CubanFox]

I'm with LL. Adam Smith.
http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/clyde_adamsmith.jpg

The Hitler garbage wasn't neccessary. The whole cappies = nazis thing is just silly. I'm a leftie, but that doesn't make me a die hard Stalinist.

[The Muckraker]

Cuban Fox,

If you're referring to my post, I didn't say that capitalists equal Nazis. I said that the Nazis came to power with the aid of US capitalists, and Prescott Bush is a very good case in point. Unlike Henry Ford, who harbored at the very least Nazi sypmathies, I do not think that Prescott Bush was a Nazi at all. Rather, he was a capitalist and when push came to shove he continued doing business with the Nazis even after the US was at war with Germany. That can't really be questioned, it's a matter of historical fact. Now, you could argue about whether Prescott Bush was a Nazi sympathizer or not, that's just my opinion, as I stated, but there's no doubt that his company was taken under the Trading With The Enemy Act. We know that it was.

If you weren't referring to me, forgive me, but if you were, please read more carefully.

[CubanFox]

I was referring to the Hitler post made by DyerMaker. My apologies.

[The Muckraker]

Cuban Fox,

No problem, and my apologies as well. Sometimes it gets a bit confusing with all these posts as to whom someone is addressing. No offence meant.

[von Mises]

Muckracker,

The communists in Russia were also financed by Wall Street so cut the crap. Do you even have a basic common sense that you need to put all your efforts in at least partly abolishing goverments instead of systems?

[Comrade Gorley]

Everyone,

first of all, I apologize for posting twice; I didn't see this post come up, so I tried again. :cheesy:

Second of all I didn't think Hitler should be nominated because he's not American and could at least pretend to be socialist. The "perfect" capitalist (the epitome of capitalism) would be American and pseduo-patriotic and besides that would wallow in capitalism. And be an idiot.

Hazard, you're right, maybe a more proper term would be "grand Puba" or something, but patron saint is the commonly used term for a "hero" of a cause (ie the Beatleheaters "patron saint" is Yoko Ono, see here /www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/1014/ (http:///www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/1014/)) and I think that, even if they don't admit it, the capitalists all have elements of GLR.

Grr, I lost my library book on communism. Gotta go find it. (More just to finish reading it than to not get in trouble with the library as I'm in heavy debt with it anyway, lol.)

[Comrade Gorley]

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/patrons.asp

They have quite a few for capitalism: businessmen, businesswomen, accountants, bankers, etc.

All very amusing.

They have a patron saint for TELEVISION! ROFL!

[The Muckraker]

von Mises,

What crap? I simply gave a few historical facts, easily confirmed ones at that. You seem to be flailing wildly at me, to the point that your second sentence is a bit, well, uniquely constructed. Maybe you should switch to decaf.

[synthesis]

This is in stark contrast to the fundamental characteristics of capitalism that a minimum of government supervision is required in business affairs and that the government’s only role is to protect society from foreign attack and uphold the rights of private property.

By your definition, the United States would not be capitalist.

Interestingly, America's economic model seems to resemble the Fascist economic policy of Corporatism much more than it resembles Smithian/Randian 'pure' capitalism.

is very much like Hitler’s fascist model.

Hitler wasn't a Fascist. Fascism and National Socialism are two seperate things, although they are both totally dedicated to preserving private property and the status quo - much like Bush or Reagan today.

The whole cappies = nazis thing is just silly.

You'll notice that I never said that the two were equal. I don't believe for a minute that all capitalists are inherently Nazis, but National Socialism is, despite its name, intrisically capitalist.

I suppose I should clarify that I was only semi-serious by making that post. If I was trying to actually make a case, I wouldn't have put the American flag with the swastika there.

I stand by this statement, though.

What better exemplifies capitalism than his imperialist aggression, vitriolic racism, and utter contempt for the working class?

[HankMorgan]

Quote: from kidicarus20 on 4:12 am on May 6, 2003
My vote goes to Ayn Rand

http://www.strangewords.com/archive/ayn.html

Is Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged really reviewable as literature?



Thanks, kid, for posting the entire web page AND the URL. Nice use of the copy and paste.

Of all the pages on the web devoted to Rand and "Atlas Shrugged", it's interesting to me that you choose someone who reviews science fiction.

The author of the quote you posted missed the point of "Atlas Shrugged" which can be thought of as another version of the "It's a Wonderful Life" story. What happens when the individual goes on strike, leaving the collectivist no one left to feed on? The book is long but it shows a step by step progression of how the central flaw of communism erodes and finally destroys a society.

Hey kid, I hear the tabloids do some excellent book reviews. Try again.

[Comrade Gorley]

Hey, Hank, I like your sig. Did you write it, or did you see/hear it somewhere?

[HankMorgan]

Comrade Gorley,

Those are my words. Others here at che-lives, where left is right and right is wrong, have pointed out that the three lines aren't always correct. Perhaps they are correct but the three lines are good foundation bricks to build a government on.

[Comrade Gorley]

The only one I would argue with is the first one as there will always be idiot conformists in the world. Also realistically speaking, Number 2 can never be achieved in a capitalist world (or, let's be honest, a communist world either) although it is ethically true.

[Liberty Lover]

DyerMaker,

"Interestingly, America's economic model seems to resemble the Fascist economic policy of Corporatism much more than it resembles Smithian/Randian 'pure' capitalism."

Although Smith's views have undergone considerable modification by economists in the light of historical developments since his time, many sections of The Wealth of Nations, notably those relating to the sources of income and the nature of capital, have continued to form the basis for theoretical study in the field of political economy. The Wealth of Nations has also served, perhaps more than any other single work in its field, as a guide to the formulation of governmental economic policies.

"Hitler wasn't a Fascist. Fascism and National Socialism are two seperate things"

I was always of the understanding that National Socialism was a variant of Fascism, as Stalinism is a variant of communism.

[onepunchmachinegun]

I think Hitler but the danish prime minister Fogh is also a very good example...

[Harmless Games]

Rockafeller or Columbus, the of 1 million native cubans can be attributed to Columbus and his search for gold.

[Comrade Gorley]

Quote: from Harmless Games on 10:33 pm on May 7, 2003
Rockafeller or Columbus, the of 1 million native cubans can be attributed to Columbus and his search for gold.

I would disagree with you here, because Columbus was something of a liberal. After all he discvered that the earth was round, and besides that had all the bravery and spirit of adventure of communism. However by no means am I calling him a socialist, he was still very cappie (patriotic, gold loving) but I also am opposed to him being called a "patron saint" of capitalism as I have too much respect for him.

[Dirty Commie]

Columbus didn't discover that the earth is round, the Greeks and Romans and all the educated people in the world knew it was round. He simply got lost and started a chain of events that got us to this point.

He was a murderous barbarian, he wasn't adventurous, he was greedy.

[synthesis]

I was always of the understanding that National Socialism was a variant of Fascism, as Stalinism is a variant of communism.

The two are both totalitarian, but National Socialism was a more moderate economic system, while Fascism was totally to the right.

Check out the analysis that Political Compass has on their website. It explains it better.

[synthesis]

I also am opposed to him being called a "patron saint" of capitalism as I have too much respect for him.

A genocidal monster and nothing more.

[von Mises]

Fascism was first seen in Italy thanks to Mussolini who was kicked out of some left wing party for being too extreme. So I don't suppose anyone would make such a switch to the other side of the spectrum.

Come on, there are better ones. Smith, Nozick, Rothbard, Von Mises, Rand, Hayek, Friedman. Clearly, as you all know so well what is wrong with the fundamentals of capitalism, you must have read their books in order to get a thourough understanding of its principles?

[Harmless Games]

You like columbus? Read the book "A peoples history of the US" by Howard Zinn, very good read and spits in the face of the American public as it has idolized Columbus as a great and selfless man. Goes into detail about just how capitalist Columbus was. He forced native Cubans to find at least 3 ounces of gold every three months. When the "indians" would bring it to him he would give them a copper medal they would wear around there necks, if an indian was found without one they would kill him on the spot. I have no respect or gratitude for this man, he traveled for riches and nothing else.

[Anonymous]

I don't know what your talking about, but everyone in our class knows that Columbus exploited the Indians. Personally, I don't really give a goddamn what he did to them.

[CubanFox]

The Frogs wiped out an entire tribe of Amerindians, the Natchez, in Louisiana, in less than a year? Their crime? Pissing the French off :cool:

Random Fact: St Adrian of Nicomedia is the patron saint of ARMS DEALERS. Here's a list of patron saints: http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php

[Comrade Gorley]

OK, everyone, you've made your point, Columbus was a burgeoise bastard. But I still don't think he's legible for "patron saint of capitalism", in comparison to some other nominations.

[Harmless Games]

ok, i'll agree with you there i guess, but still read the book, it is very good. The first chapter coveres Columbus.