Obama is not one of us

[Chapaev]

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081022/BLOG8101/810220217?Title=Florida_socialist_says_Obama_isn_t _one_of_them


Republicans of all levels – from state and national leaders to the working class base – have ratcheted up the rhetoric in recent weeks that Barack Obama’s election would bring a crushing wave of “socialism” or “communism” to the country.

At least one Florida socialist said that’s crazy. Party for Socialism and Liberation state coordinator Emmanuel Lopez said Obama is as committed to protecting the wealthy corporations of this nation as any Republican.
“He is absolutely, 100 percent, not a socialist,” said Lopez on Tuesday. “If anything, he’s just another mold from the cookie-cutter of the major parties. He may be a different flavor of cookie, he still represents the rich ruling class of this country.”

Lopez said Obama’s health care plan only guarantees profits for insurers and pharmaceutical companies. The PSL would nationalize the health care industry and guarantee equal coverage for everyone.

Lopez said that the nation’s “illegal” immigrants who pay taxes should be allowed to vote. This “universal suffrage” would force the Democrats to pay more than lip service to the minorities and underprivileged the party claims to speak for, Lopez said.

Lopez said Republicans are using the word “socialist” as a pejorative in order to stunt the ideas that, in these difficult economic times, are gaining traction among the working class.

“They are very, very fearful of real socialist politics taking the street and hitting working class people when it’s the most potent time,” said Lopez.

[Pogue]

Obama is as much of a **** as the rest of these career politicians. Fuck him, fuck the system he represents and lets fucking hope those liberals who are getting all excited about his election wake up and realise that after 200 odd years, we can finnally wake up and realise bourgeoisie democracy is a fucking sham and aload of false and stupid hope. I'm passionate on this because it's fucking stupid that people still get revved up with the fucking pacifying wank these 'liberals' put out. He'll have as much blood on his hands after a week in office as the rest of them.

[FreeFocus]

Obama is as much of a **** as the rest of these career politicians. Fuck him, fuck the system he represents and lets fucking hope those liberals who are getting all excited about his election wake up and realise that after 200 odd years, we can finnally wake up and realise bourgeoisie democracy is a fucking sham and aload of false and stupid hope. I'm passionate on this because it's fucking stupid that people still get revved up with the fucking pacifying wank these 'liberals' put out. He'll have as much blood on his hands after a week in office as the rest of them.

Absolutely. Liberals cause my stomach to churn.

[Lenin's Law]

You know, in some respect it may be a positive thing that these Republicans are getting so desperate they're using the "s" word. It may cause some people to actually look it up and find out what it means which could lead to something for the most advanced workers/students.

[Kukulofori]

I watch Fox News, and I've noticed that their definitions of "socialism" are getting less and less completely nonsensical. Today I even heard the actual Soviet definition.

Makes me happy inside.

[Comrade B]

Of course Obama isn't one of us, but he beats McCain. If you are in a secure state, vote for La Riva or Nader or somebody, but if your state is on the border between another 4 years of radical right wing leadership and standard capitalism, we should chose the less dangerous of the two.

[Lenin's Law]

No: instead revolutionaries should tell the working class that they have no interest in ruling class squabbles and what is needed most of all is a break with the Democratic Party. How can any revolutionary justify voting for a openly pro-capitalist, bourgeois poltical party and then say with the same breath: "oh but of course we're against the Democrats and against capitalism, we're just voting for him cause the other guy's worse"

This is essentially no different than the liberal-left reformist line.

[ashaman1324]

socialism isnt gonna gain alot of traction in the US for a while. democrats are considered leftists to some people here.:crying:
once people actually get it through their thick fucking heads we dont have to stay trapped under the rich and ruling class i think well make some progress. mass public education is needed. especially for young people (30-)

[FreeFocus]

Obama, if elected, can potentially set the left back a decade or more. Don't underestimate his ability to, well, mindfuck people. If he's elected, people will get drunk on his bullshit version of "hope," rejuvenating their faith in capitalism, state terrorism, and imperialism.

Obama is more dangerous in the long term than McCain.

[alpharowe3]

I think its more beneficial to us if McCain gets elected... the longer the right is in power the larger the eventual backlash... the more people question the current state they are in and discover alternatives...

[Comrade B]

I swear, you guys will be complaining twice as much under McCain as Obama. What do you want people to do? Revolt? Right now?

Obama is bad, but I really don't see him as worse than the majority of the other pro-Israel, semi-bush supporting, weak assed democrats.

For every republican we got, we will slide further and further towards fascism.
The hole new republican thing of the "real America" is a lovely example of racism being reintroduced openly into politics. Look at the regions they consider the fake America, Like the DC area.

McCain will not only perpetuate the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, he also wants to fight Iran and Russia. He hates communism quite a bit, my guess is it would have to do with his time as a POW. His supporter's main problem with Obama is that he is "black," or some even think Arab, and that they think he is Muslim, not that he is a capitalist.

[alpharowe3]

I swear, you guys will be complaining twice as much under McCain as Obama. What do you want people to do? Revolt? Right now?

Obama is bad, but I really don't see him as worse than the majority of the other pro-Israel, semi-bush supporting, weak assed democrats.

For every republican we got, we will slide further and further towards fascism.
The hole new republican thing of the "real America" is a lovely example of racism being reintroduced openly into politics. Look at the regions they consider the fake America, Like the DC area.

McCain will not only perpetuate the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, he also wants to fight Iran and Russia. He hates communism quite a bit, my guess is it would have to do with his time as a POW. His supporter's main problem with Obama is that he is "black," or some even think Arab, and that they think he is Muslim, not that he is a capitalist.

Thats the point gathering support, riots & revolts is so much easier & likely under McCain, if Obama gets elected we stay in this cycle of political sedation satisfied with this meager win.

[Comrade B]

Thats the point gathering support, riots & revolts is so much easier & likely under McCain, if Obama gets elected we stay in this cycle of political sedation satisfied with this meager win.
I dislike this opportunistic view. We are supposed to support things because they are moral, not because in the end they will drive people into desperation and then to our views. This would also not really generate people fighting for our cause, just fighting against the old leadership.

Also, I think that severe police brutality against protesters is much more likely to accompany the would-be rioters under McCain.
Got to tell you, I am not a big fan of being beaten by clubs and having my eyes burn.

[alpharowe3]

I dislike this opportunistic view. We are supposed to support things because they are moral, not because in the end they will drive people into desperation and then to our views. This would also not really generate people fighting for our cause, just fighting against the old leadership.


I agree with you on that but I am worried that people are simply too discouraged to fight for what they feel is right... which is why we need McCain to be in office. It may be opportunistic but it may be our only chance... I envy the late 60s.

[Lenin's Law]

Sigh.

The "we must vote for Democrats because of Republican fascism!!" is the classic liberal-left argument that has been used for the past 50 years, since Goldwater and to what end?? Have the Democrats gone more the the left? NO! They have actually gone further and further to the right so much so that there is little that distinguishes them from the Republicans.

Obama is just as much a militarist as McCain; recall that most of our wars of the past 100 years were started by Democratic Presidents. In fact, Obama will probably be under more pressure to launch militarist strikes to show to the ruling class that he too can be just as brutal as serving US corporate interests as the Republicans (albeit with minor tactical differences such as being friendlier to the European ruling class, getting UN support, etc)

Obama has not ruled out war with Iran, goes further to antagonize Pakistan and Venezuela than McCain has. For instance: he's stated he would be willing to execute military strikes in Pakistan with or without the permission of the Pakistani government and that he favors sanctions against Venezuela. Biden (his VP pick, who interestingly has been one of the most ferocious hawks on the Democratic side: who has supported virtually every US military conflict including Iraq) stated recently how in the first 6 months of an Obama administration there would be a major crisis and the Obama administration will react in an unpopular manner that would shock even many of their supporters.

The difference between a McCain and an Obama administrations would be largely tactical and superficial in nature; not ideological or meaningful in any sense of the word. Just because 'revolution is not coming around the corner' doesn't mean we abandon our principles of being against bourgeois imperialist parties.

[Lenin's Law]

Also, I think that severe police brutality against protesters is much more likely to accompany the would-be rioters under McCain.Got to tell you, I am not a big fan of being beaten by clubs and having my eyes burn.

Really? Check out the protests surrounding the Democratic Convention of 1968 in (surprise) Chicago, Illinois.

Democratic Convention.
Democratic Mayor.
Democratic City Council.

Find out the anti-war protestors were treated.

Heck, you might as well look up how the protestors were treated during the DNC convention in Minneapolis, at least as brutal as the Republicans if not more so.

[Comrade B]

Really? Check out the protests surrounding the Democratic Convention of 1968 in (surprise) Chicago, Illinois.

Democratic Convention.
Democratic Mayor.
Democratic City Council.

Find out the anti-war protestors were treated.

Heck, you might as well look up how the protestors were treated during the DNC convention in Minneapolis, at least as brutal as the Republicans if not more so.
Yeah, sure, there are bastards on both parties, I am a communist damn it, not a democrat.

The modern republicans however, are much more violent than the modern democrats.


100 years were started by Democratic Presidents.
That is because Reagan decided it was better to just give guns to the leaders of countries fighting communists. Also, they could violate international law more easily with out it coming back to bite the US in the ass.

Much of what you say is based on the belief that these politicians don't lie. They will aim for the most middle stance during the campaign as possible. I doubt that most of the things Obama has said to appease the moderate republicans will really stick during his presidency.

[La Comédie Noire]

I hope Obama wins, it'd be funny to see the look on peoples' faces when capitalism acts exactly the same way. It'd go something like this:

Obama gets elected :)
The war continues :blushing:
The war expands :confused:
Benefits get dropped :blink:
Living standards fall :bored:
The state grows repressive :crying:
Class conciousness grows :mad:
The workers revolt :lol:
Communism :thumbup1:

[Trystan]

I spoke to a conservative on another forum who believes that Obama will try to stay in power forever. Lunatics.

[GPDP]

What most of you are forgetting is that without a mass, organized movement that demands radical change, it won't matter which of the two bourgeois stooges gets into power. Whether Obama could make it easier to organize, or McCain could repress us more so as to piss people off - these things mean squat without a movement to back them.

[JimmyJazz]

What most of you are forgetting is that without a mass, organized movement that demands radical change, it won't matter which of the two bourgeois stooges gets into power. Whether Obama could make it easier to organize, or McCain could repress us more so as to piss people off - these things mean squat without a movement to back them.

Yeah. And for the same reason, using my vote the exact "right" way (Green, Nader, PSL, SPUSA, abstaining, spoiling, writing in "fuck c:blackA:pitalism") just isn't as important as some on here make it out to be. No good candidate can win in this system, so the focus should be on organizing that mass/working class movement to change the system, not casting the absolute most perfect protest vote.

[GPDP]

No good candidate can win in this system

I actually found myself making this point to a liberal friend of mine.

I showed him a video of a segment of one of the Democratic primary debates (the Youtube one), and it had a guy ask Senator Mike Gravel whether he still thought the soldiers in Vietnam had died in vain, and if he was willing to say that out loud, else risk accusation of flip-flopping. Immediately and without hesitation, Gravel said with resounding force that he has never flip-flopped and would never flip-flop, and that indeed, the soldiers in Vietnam did die in vain, and the soldiers in Iraq are dying in vain. He finished off by stating that the only thing worse than a soldier dying in vain is more soldiers dying in vain.

This question was then fielded to Obama and Edwards, both of who weakly and expectedly said they did not die in vain, in the usual tone that a politician that only says uncontroversial things takes. In contrast to Gravel's forceful and honest answer, Obama and Edwards fizzled underneath their safe statements.

I then asked my friend what he saw in the candidates given their answers, and all he said was that he saw one unelectable candidate and two electable candidates. I then retorted that if such is the case, then no "electable" candidate is worth electing.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's unbelievable to me that anyone from the radical Left would even consider voting for Obama. Every once and a while I will even meet an anarchist who votes in the national elections. It boggles the mind. :blink:

Here's a man who bragged about "reforming" welfare in Chicago and talked about "re-evaluating" his stance on Iraq when the political wind ceased to blow in his favor for a bit on the issue, not to mention the fact that he was propelled in the early days of his candidacy by hundreds of thousands of dollars from Goldman Sachs. His record in Chicago politics is one of comfortable conformity.

This election is such a farce...

[bootleg42]

It does matter who wins because McCain is the farther right candidate. There are small differences, and in a HUGE country like the U.S., those small differences could mean millions of lives changing for the better or worse.

That being said, if Obama is elected, it means we (the real left) will have to work harder.

In fact I dare say we shouldn't get so caught up in the whole "OMG fuck Obama, etc". Instead we should be concentrating on what the labor movement (the little thats left of it) will demand in the next 4 years, we should care that gay rights, women rights, undocumented immigrant rights are preserved, we should push to healthcare to be national and an end to the private HMO's. Bottom line, we have more than enough work ahead of us.

We can't afford to just sit back and relax as the social movements, left movements and labor movements did under Clinton. That was a setback. Remember, real democracy is not in that ballot box but it's in the streets and what the people demand and it happens before November 5th and after it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

In fact I dare say we shouldn't get so caught up in the whole "OMG fuck Obama, etc".

How could anyone possibly get caught up in not voting for Obama?

[R_P_A_S]

Obama, if elected, can potentially set the left back a decade or more. Don't underestimate his ability to, well, mindfuck people. If he's elected, people will get drunk on his bullshit version of "hope," rejuvenating their faith in capitalism, state terrorism, and imperialism.

Obama is more dangerous in the long term than McCain.

i agree.. hmmm.

[R_P_A_S]

It does matter who wins because McCain is the farther right candidate. There are small differences, and in a HUGE country like the U.S., those small differences could mean millions of lives changing for the better or worse.

That being said, if Obama is elected, it means we (the real left) will have to work harder.

In fact I dare say we shouldn't get so caught up in the whole "OMG fuck Obama, etc". Instead we should be concentrating on what the labor movement (the little thats left of it) will demand in the next 4 years, we should care that gay rights, women rights, undocumented immigrant rights are preserved, we should push to healthcare to be national and an end to the private HMO's. Bottom line, we have more than enough work ahead of us.

We can't afford to just sit back and relax as the social movements, left movements and labor movements did under Clinton. That was a setback. Remember, real democracy is not in that ballot box but it's in the streets and what the people demand and it happens before November 5th and after it.

right on!

[GPDP]

I think a professor of mine put it rather well, concerning the economic crisis: "If McCain is elected, we're screwed. If Obama is elected, we have a small chance, but only if he turns out to be a Roosevelt. If he is a Roosevelt, we'll be fine. If he is a Kennedy, forget about it."

Roosevelt, remember, did not go into office promising to do all the things he did (New Deal, etc.), but did so because there was a HUGE public outcry for change.

So like I said, without a public outcry demanding radical change, Obama will be another Kennedy or Clinton, and the shit will hit the fan for us.

[KurtFF8]

I think its more beneficial to us if McCain gets elected... the longer the right is in power the larger the eventual backlash... the more people question the current state they are in and discover alternatives...

I don't know about that. Having someone openly hostile to the left is worse than someone who at least pretends to be an "ally to the left".

Having Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush II etc. didn't help the left so how would McCain?

[JimmyJazz]

I actually found myself making this point to a liberal friend of mine.

...

I've been finding lately that it's shockingly easy to make a big impression on people with just simple little points. For instance, someone recently asked me who I plan to vote for, and I said I would vote for any third party because I'm disgusted by the way the Republicans and Democrats both fight to keep all other parties off the ballot in every state. She was totally shocked, had no idea that they do that. Since then she's made a few cynical references to the 2-party system, which she had never done before that, at least that I heard.

[Lenin's Law]

That being said, if Obama is elected, it means we (the real left) will have to work harder.

No. We should be working just as hard; one ruling class bourgeois politician winning over another changes absolutely nothing fundamentally.





In fact I dare say we shouldn't get so caught up in the whole "OMG fuck Obama, etc".


Of course not, we should instead get caught up in the whole left-liberal "lesser evilism" pressuring the Democrats to be more left BS that has worked so wonderfully the last 40 years. :rolleyes:




We can't afford to just sit back and relax as the social movements, left movements and labor movements did under Clinton. That was a setback. Remember, real democracy is not in that ballot box but it's in the streets and what the people demand and it happens before November 5th and after it.


Who's "we"? Any revolutionary leftist that "sits back and relax" when a Democrat is President is not a revolutionary or a socialist but just another left-liberal apologist. The "we" you are referring to are exactly the left-liberals who dutifully, every four years, warns of "FASCISM" from the Republicans and a de facto call for a vote for the Democrats. Ignoring the lurch to the right and the abandonment of even the token populist rhetoric made during the campaign season is usually a prerequisite for this.

The setback were the rather stupid illusions that was fostered by the left-liberals into thinking the Dems would offer something progressive compared to the Republicans...you know, kind of what the Obama supporters are doing now.

[freakazoid]

NObama


Remember, real democracy is not in that ballot box but it's in the streets and what the people demand and it happens before November 5th and after it.

Remember remember the 5th of November...

:ninja:

[bootleg42]

No. We should be working just as hard; one ruling class bourgeois politician winning over another changes absolutely nothing fundamentally.

Ok I agree there.



In fact I dare say we shouldn't get so caught up in the whole "OMG fuck Obama, etc".Of course not, we should instead get caught up in the whole left-liberal "lesser evilism" pressuring the Democrats to be more left BS that has worked so wonderfully the last 40 years.

I wasn’t suggesting that. What I meant was that people shouldn’t waste so much time thinking of who wins. We should be spending time working with the worker unions, social movements, anti-war movements, etc. And whatever comes out of that would really help the society because THATS WHAT THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION WANTS.

I got news for ya......the overwhelming majority of working people and poor people in the U.S. is not looking forward, nor will they look forward to, a communist revolution where they set of a dictorship of the proletariat or any of that crap. People want things NOW that can save their lives. That doesn’t mean we’re going to turn into democrats or any shit like that. That means we should be working with the population to achieve their goals. Create REAL democracy (not the bullshit vote for "x" every four years) and get the population's (especially the poor's) goals achieved.


Who's "we"? Any revolutionary leftist that "sits back and relax" when a Democrat is President is not a revolutionary or a socialist but just another left-liberal apologist. The "we" you are referring to are exactly the left-liberals who dutifully, every four years, warns of "FASCISM" from the Republicans and a de facto call for a vote for the Democrats. Ignoring the lurch to the right and the abandonment of even the token populist rhetoric made during the campaign season is usually a prerequisite for this.

For “we” I speak of the left. Not the liberals. I speak of the democratic socialists, socialists, communists, anarchists, social democrats, greens, all the left. The real left. They were dormant during the Clinton era. In general overall I speak of.

I don’t refer to the liberals and I don’t even think there is fascism going on in the U.S. The roots are there (the whole evangelical Christian stuff) but the power structures are not moving in that direction.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I wasn’t suggesting that. What I meant was that people shouldn’t waste so much time thinking of who wins.

No one is wasting time worrying about who wins.


We should be spending time working with the worker unions, social movements, anti-war movements, etc.

You're preaching to the choir. We all advocate for those things.


And whatever comes out of that would really help the society because THATS WHAT THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION WANTS.

And the majority of the population doesn't want communism. Supporting something because "that's what the majority wants" is silly.


I got news for ya......the overwhelming majority of working people and poor people in the U.S. is not looking forward, nor will they look forward to, a communist revolution where they set of a dictorship of the proletariat or any of that crap. People want things NOW that can save their lives.

As long as people have faith in the electoral and legislative processes, there will never be any real change. It's as simple as that.


Create REAL democracy

And how are you going to do that? Certainly not within the present system, I presume.

[redsky]

Re Obama, our chances under: Remember 1933- Nach Hitler Kommen Wir! Didn't work out, and the KPD had to try to double down with the SPD. This isn't then, but an autonomous left would seem necessary. Redsky

[RHIZOMES]

In regards to people endorsing a vote for Obama - Oligatory disclaimer: I think Obama is full of shit. He is a shrewd careerist politician who knew exactly what to do to get himself into the position he is now. The only reason he's where he is right now is due to being able to tap into American frustration with the current state of things and link venting that frustration with voting for him instead of the other Democratic candidates, who were running more of a generic "X For President" campaign. He is hardly a "messiah". I would not vote for either side if I lived in a "swing state" in the US or in a normal state for that matter, I do see both parties as simply different sections of the ruling class vying for power. HOWEVER, If McCain dies, Sarah Palin becomes President. This truly scares me, she's a bigger right-wing theocrat than Bush by huge margins is, and stupider, and the idea that someone like Palin would be the leader of the most powerful imperialist state in the world truly scares me. And I don't think it's anymore morally right for leftists to endorse a vote for McCain as Obama, thinking quite undialectically that "It'll make people more revolutionary". How do you know that? That sort of logic in the past has just fucked over the working class and demoralized them, and is just as bad as saying you should vote for Obama since he's "not as bad". Actually I'd say it's worse. The 1970's in Britain was a time of quite high class consciousness, and guess who was in power! :rolleyes:

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Im suprised at the amount of people who are usually critical of the US state etc. are supporting him (usually just because he's black).

[lvatt]

Here's Obama in his own words, claiming he's not a socialist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMfeypnAz6k

[KurtFF8]

I don't see why it's even necessary to talk to other leftists to confirm this. It should be quite obvious. His website used to have a quote on the economy section praising capitalism as a great productive system that provides opportunity to all (or something along those lines).