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Rosa Provokateur

23rd October 2008, 15:25

Leviticus 20:13

Sinner.:rolleyes:
Yeah I am, any Christian that says they arent is either ignorant or lying.

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." --Romans 3:21-24

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 15:39

Yeah I am, any Christian that says they arent is either ignorant or lying.

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." --Romans 3:21-24

So let me get this straight, lets assume that you are gay, and you go ahead and act on your sexuality, like you should. But you acknowledge said sexuality to be a sin? So you're saying God created homosexuals to be sinners? So what, they need to ask forgiveness right? But repentence means that you try (not necessarily succeed) to stop sinning. So you think homosexuals should at least try to stop being gay, and should ask for forgiveness whenever comitting a homosexual act? Will you be sure to pray for God's mercy after every night with your boyfriend?

Winter

23rd October 2008, 15:41

Green Apostle:

Be who you are. You may be bisexual if you find both members of the two genders sexually attractive. No need to jump into a relationship if you are unsure. Be young, be free, experiment I'd say.

I'm heterosexual, and cannot look at other men in a sexual way. If you feel this way about women, you may be gay. :)

Rosa Provokateur

23rd October 2008, 16:29

So let me get this straight, lets assume that you are gay, and you go ahead and act on your sexuality, like you should. But you acknowledge said sexuality to be a sin? So you're saying God created homosexuals to be sinners? So what, they need to ask forgiveness right? But repentence means that you try (not necessarily succeed) to stop sinning. So you think homosexuals should at least try to stop being gay, and should ask for forgiveness whenever comitting a homosexual act? Will you be sure to pray for God's mercy after every night with your boyfriend?
I don't know whether or not to say if its sin. I go by what Jesus said, that the entire Law hangs on loving God and loving people; if this brings people into loving relationships then I don't see how it could be sin.

If God made someone in a certain way then who is anyone to condemn them for something they had no choice in? My problem is that I don't know and I feel like I have to before doing anything. It's like crawling before walking, know before acting.

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 16:33

I don't know whether or not to say if its sin. I go by what Jesus said, that the entire Law hangs on loving God and loving people; if this brings people into loving relationships then I don't see how it could be sin.

If God made someone in a certain way then who is anyone to condemn them for something they had no choice in? My problem is that I don't know and I feel like I have to before doing anything. It's like crawling before walking, know before acting.

The bible is the word of God. The bible says homosexuality is a sin, you are a christian, yet you are willing to at least entertain the thought of sinning with the knowledge that it is a sin.

You might not know if you are gay, but you do know being gay is a sin. As a christian how can you make the choice to act on that sin?

Winter

23rd October 2008, 16:37

If God made someone in a certain way then who is anyone to condemn them for something they had no choice in? My problem is that I don't know and I feel like I have to before doing anything. It's like crawling before walking, know before acting.

The problem with Christianity is that the vast majority of it's followers do not share your sympaty for the homosexual community. For the most part, they believe homosexuality is a choice, and even after backing up scientific research that says otherwise, they'll refuse to listen because they are anti-science.

Depending on what kind of church you belong to I would suggest to watch out who you tell this information about yourself to. You can be ostracized and even harrassed. Have you ever considered checking out any alternatives to religion, or a non-theistic religion such as Buddhism?

I've been down this path before, and regardless what you personally believe Jesus may have taught is irrelevant, because you will always be bombarded by zealots. So I ask you: What's the point in finding solidarity and/or associating with these people?

Rosa Provokateur

23rd October 2008, 16:41

Post-Something

23rd October 2008, 16:45

Its like this; somedays I'll feel certain that I'm straight, other days that I'm gay, and then other days that I have no idea. They conflict with eachother constantly and I'm confused.

Doesn't everyone go through this at some stage? Give it a bit of time, and if you still feel attracted to the same sex, then go for it. Good luck :)

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 16:49

I've told my youth minister and he says he'll be there to support me. I've known him forever and his word is his bond, there was no mention of hell-fire etc. and the congregation I'm with is like family. There will be some that oppose me but with the youth group's support I'm in no danger.

Please adress the points I made in the last post.

Ultimately the way your youth pastor feels means fuck all in the religious scheme of things. The bible is the word of God and you either believe it (and are a christian) or you don't (and do not believe in Christ or the Christian god).

You can try and pick and choose what you like from it but that is bullshit, how do you decide what to believe and what is false? How do you know what is fact and what is parable?

Rosa Provokateur

23rd October 2008, 19:08

You can try and pick and choose what you like from it but that is bullshit, how do you decide what to believe and what is false? How do you know what is fact and what is parable?

Base it on what Jesus said, if it contradicts him then its no good. He said that to love God and to love everyone as much as you love yourself is the fulfillment of the whole Law, if two people enter into a loving relationship then I see it as fulfilling these two commands.

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 19:13

Base it on what Jesus said, if it contradicts him then its no good. He said that to love God and to love everyone as much as you love yourself is the fulfillment of the whole Law, if two people enter into a loving relationship then I see it as fulfilling these two commands.

But how do you know what Jesus said? Because its in the bible? So you believe it cause its in the bible, but not other things even though they are in the bible as well? You believe that Jesus said those things, why? Because you believe in the bible? But you only believe those parts of the bible which suit your twisted idea of both christianity and revolutionary politics.

Rosa Provokateur

23rd October 2008, 19:22

But you only believe those parts of the bible which suit your twisted idea of both christianity and revolutionary politics.
I believe them because I follow Jesus Christ, not Judaism.

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 19:33

I believe them because I follow Jesus Christ, not Judaism.

What the hell are you talking about here?

Are you a christian? What dictates christianity? Ultimately it is the bible, you can try and say it is the "teachings of christ" but the only records of such teachings are the damn bible, so ultimately your faith is based on the bible as a record of the teachings of christ. So why do you choose to believe some of those teachings and not others? How do you make the choice on which ones are good and which ones aren't? You pick and choose through each of them to meet your incorrect ideals of what christianity is and what anarchism is.

If you consider yourself a "christian anarchist" then you don't believe in either of those ideologies, because they are mutually exclusive.

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 20:43

What the hell are you talking about here?

Are you a christian? What dictates christianity? Ultimately it is the bible, you can try and say it is the "teachings of christ" but the only records of such teachings are the damn bible, so ultimately your faith is based on the bible as a record of the teachings of christ. So why do you choose to believe some of those teachings and not others? How do you make the choice on which ones are good and which ones aren't? You pick and choose through each of them to meet your incorrect ideals of what christianity is and what anarchism is.

If you consider yourself a "christian anarchist" then you don't believe in either of those ideologies, because they are mutually exclusive.

dude your not helping him out this thread is about his sexuality not his religious beliefs

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 20:52

dude your not helping him out this thread is about his sexuality not his religious beliefs

The two are related, to declare that he is a homosexual is the choose to sin! The bible, a text he bases his life off of as a christian says homosexuality is wrong. His god, (in his mind) is forgiving and will allow him to repent, but repentence entails turning away from that sin, and that means denying homosexuality. He must either be a homosexual or be a christian, you can't be both, just as he must either be a revolutionary or be a christian.

I'm not telling him which one to pick, just pointing out that the two cannot go together. If he wants to be a christian, then fine, I hope he is a kind and caring person like the Catholic Workers or Liberation Theologists, but ultimately he won't be a revolutionary because his ideas will be rooted in reactionary thought (religion). If he wants to be a revolutionary, thats great too.

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 20:58

^^^ i understand that, but hes obviously in turmoil at the moment about his sexuality and shouldnt we be trying to help him with that instead of giving him something else to worry about?

Forward Union

23rd October 2008, 21:12

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 21:19

i was just thinking if your protestant it dosnt matter as long as you accept jesus as the son of god i think its called 'justification by faith alone'...just a thought

apathy maybe

23rd October 2008, 21:21

You're a man yes? Go hang out in Gay bars, if you enjoy other men hitting on you and trying to pick you up, then go home with one of them. You don't have to jump straight into sex (and make this clear, probably before you go home with them), but could fool around a bit.

If you enjoy the experience, then repeat it.

Do the same for a "normal" bar, except with women. Make it clear you aren't interested in sex, but go home with them and fool around. If you enjoy it, repeat the experience.

Work out which one you like more, and if you like both equally, then great!

(I would suggest though, that if your 18 and you haven't worked out which gender you prefer more, that maybe you've been closeted by your family? Or maybe just a later bloomer? 'Cause most people work it out by the time they are 15 or 16. But whatever, just make sure you have fun and enjoy it. Don't feel guilty.)

Winter

23rd October 2008, 21:27

^^^ i understand that, but hes obviously in turmoil at the moment about his sexuality and shouldnt we be trying to help him with that instead of giving him something else to worry about?

He is helping him. He's trying to show him the contradictions between his situation and his religion.

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 21:32

He is helping him. He's trying to show him the contradictions between his situation and his religion.

but shouldnt we help him make up his mind and then leave the matter of his salvation up to himself?

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 22:04

but shouldnt we help him make up his mind and then leave the matter of his salvation up to himself?

Did it occur to you that his religion might be making this harder on him?

I do think he should explore his sexuality because that is healthy. And because he does seem like an ok guy, he just happens to have some reactionary ideas.

But I would hate to see him considering himself to be living in sin and continualy asking forgiveness from a bully in the sky just because he is in love.

i was just thinking if your protestant it dosnt matter as long as you accept jesus as the son of god i think its called 'justification by faith alone'...just a thought

Protestants still believe in the bible. All christians take the bible as the written word of god. According to christianity, just proclaiming your faith won't save you, you must actually believe, and if you were to commit a sin like homosexuality, you could be forgiven, but to continue to commit it would demonstrate that you don't actually believe it to be a sin. (because, afterall, if you did you would cut it out)

Its complicated. I spent every weekday of my life in a church for two years, I know a fair amount about christianity.

freakazoid

23rd October 2008, 22:18

Leviticus 20:13
Quote:
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Sinner.http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gifActually no, mistranslation. I have talked about this before in other threads.

but to continue to commit it would demonstrate that you don't actually believe it to be a sin.

To continue to commit a sin, not homosexuality, doesn't necessarily mean that you don't believe it to be a sin. Some people have problems with things that they need to put there faith in God to help them with. As long as they are actually trying. :)

apathy maybe

23rd October 2008, 22:30

A better idea: Rather then hang out at your local gay bar, find your local youth support group. You'll find other folks asking the same questions and going through the same process.

Hang out with them, and make out with the fellas from there. They are more likely to be sympathetic and understanding.

Hit The North

23rd October 2008, 22:35

I fear for you because you are drenched in guilt due to your religious faith, which from the outset fixes you in a gaze of hatred, piles sin upon sin on your head, and demands you apologise for your own nature.

You need to realise that all feeling is magnificent and it is the quality of your love, not its object, which will save you.

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 22:40

Its complicated. I spent every weekday of my life in a church for two years, I know a fair amount about christianity.[/quote]

if you know alot about christianity you will know that God loves us all individually and that he wants to accept us and forgive us for any sins we may commit in our lives i know this is kinda unfair to ask you but do you think God would forgive him for one sin he commited in his life and took in to account that he was a devoted christian?

you said he had some reactionary ideas ie. religion. thats kinda hypocritical coming from someone who spent every weekday in church for two years dont ye think?

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 22:44

Actually no, mistranslation. I have talked about this before in other threads.

To continue to commit a sin, not homosexuality, doesn't necessarily mean that you don't believe it to be a sin. Some people have problems with things that they need to put there faith in God to help them with. As long as they are actually trying. :)

Repentence entails turning away from your sin. You cannot turn away from the sin of homosexuality while continuing to engage in it. Thus you have not repented, and you have not followed god's law, and therefore demonstrate your lack of faith in god, and are not saved.

Ultimately in order to fall in line with god's law and to repent (and furthermore, be saved) you must supress your natural urges. Nonetheless, the urges themselves would be considered a sin to most christians.

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 22:46

if you know alot about christianity you will know that God loves us all individually and that he wants to accept us and forgive us for any sins we may commit in our lives i know this is kinda unfair to ask you but do you think God would forgive him for one sin he commited in his life and took in to account that he was a devoted christian?

you said he had some reactionary ideas ie. religion. thats kinda hypocritical coming from someone who spent every weekday in church for two years dont ye think?

I don't think anything about god except that he does not exist.

But the bible states that you must repent for your sins. Repenting means not just asking forgiveness but turning away from the sin. If he does not turn away from the sin then he has no faith in god.

I don't think it is hypocritical, I broke free from the religious chains that I was raised in.

Hit The North

23rd October 2008, 22:50

I believe them because I follow Jesus Christ, not Judaism.

Further, comrade, you need to start using your intellect. There is no independent evidence that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, in whom you place so much stock, actually existed. There is, in fact, no evidence that you are responding to anything except a work of fiction (no matter how true this fiction may dramatise real dilemmas within the human condition).

You've been raised (or you have volunteered to be) in a tradition which gives an irrational precedence to a group of narratives, claiming that these, above all other rival narratives, deliver the truth; moreover insisting that you should put to one side any recourse to the rational evidence you would usually demand from any other similar claims. In the parlance of a good old fashioned working class response to being cheated, you have been sold a bill of sale.

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 22:52

I don't think anything about god except that he does not exist.

But the bible states that you must repent for your sins. Repenting means not just asking forgiveness but turning away from the sin. If he does not turn away from the sin then he has no faith in god.

but God isnt trying to catch you out on every sin you commit he wants you to get into heaven so if he sins and he is sorry but its just its nature surely God will take pity being the forgiving god he is and allow him into heaven

I don't think it is hypocritical, I broke free from the religious chains that I was raised in.

so you were forced to spend five days a week in church and u didnt even belive?

Dóchas

23rd October 2008, 22:53

^^^ sorry im fukin up on the quote thingy

The Douche

23rd October 2008, 22:59

so you were forced to spend five days a week in church and u didnt even belive?

No, at the time I did consider myself to be a christian. I was homeschooled and had to go to work with my mother who was, and still is, a church secretary, so I spent those years in a church surrounded by church people learning about christianity and the church.

When I became a revolutionary I tried to rationalize the two, christianity and working class revolution. But ultimately they are in conflict with each other and the more sensible idea won out.

I do not deny that some religious people are good people and thier religion motivates them to hold a world view which is good. (i.e. liberation theology) However, thier ideas are ultimately founded on a reactionary idea (religion).

Yes you can be religious and advocate a better and more just world, but you cannot be a communist or anarchist and be religious.

Hostage

23rd October 2008, 23:37

Not to sound shallow or anything but.. when I had my doubts, the first thing I did was download a gay porno. Then see what happens. if you feel aroused i guess you're gay.. if you can't look at it then you're straight

turned out im quite straight haha

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 07:14

Further, comrade, you need to start using your intellect. There is no independent evidence that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, in whom you place so much stock, actually existed. There is, in fact, no evidence that you are responding to anything except a work of fiction (no matter how true this fiction may dramatise real dilemmas within the human condition).

I think that this is best saved for the religion section don't you think? This guy is trying to ask for help on finding out just where he stands and I don't think this talk is helping much.

politics student

24th October 2008, 09:54

I think that this is best saved for the religion section don't you think? This guy is trying to ask for help on finding out just where he stands and I don't think this talk is helping much.

Anarchism and Communism is atheistic as both are based on materalism.

I recommend he does some reading about the christian communists.

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 10:02

Anarchism and Communism is atheistic as both are based on materalism.

Doesn't have to be. Like me for example. I'm a Christian anarchist and I have been without any conflict.

I recommend he does some reading about the christian communists.

I found Leo Tolstoy to be a joy to read.

The Douche

24th October 2008, 15:15

Doesn't have to be. Like me for example. I'm a Christian anarchist and I have been without any conflict.

Yes it does. No, you are not a christian anarchist. You are one or the other. Anarchism requires a materialist analysis of the world, the idea that class struggle moves society forward, or the idea that the struggle of the oppressed against the rulers moves society forward (that last one is the base idea behind insurrectionary anarchism, which you lay claim to) but christianity claims that society moves forward at the will of god. The bourgeoisie are in power because that is god's plan, that is what you believe. Belief in god entails believing that the is an ultimate authority who has control over your life and the world, that is obviously anti-anarchist. Free will does not exist in christianity.

I found Leo Tolstoy to be a joy to read.

Tolstoy can eat a dick, and he's not an anarchist.

Os Cangaceiros

24th October 2008, 15:41

I see mankind as a herd of cattle inside a fenced enclosure. Outside the fence are green pastures ans plenty for the cattle to eat, while inside the fence there is not quite grass enough for the cattle. Consequently, the cattle are tramping underfoot what little grass there is and goring each other to death in their struggle for existence.

I saw the owner of the herd come to them, and when he saw their pitiful condition he was filled with compassion for them and thought of all he could do to improve their condition.

So he called his friends together and asked them to assist him in cutting grass from outside the fence and throwing it over the fence to the cattle. And that they called Charity.

Then, because the the calves were dying off and not growing up into serviceable cattle, he arranged that they should each have a pint of milk every morning for breakfast.

Because they were dying off in the cold nights, he put up beautiful well-drained and well-ventilated cowsheds for the cattle.

Because they were goring each other in the struggle for existence, he put corks on the horns of the cattle, so that the wounds they gave each other might not be so serious. Then he reserved a part of the enclosure for the old bulls and the old cows over 70 years of age.

In fact, he did everything he could think of to improve the condition of the cattle, and when I asked him why he did not do the one obvious thing, break down the fence, and let the cattle out, he answered: "If I let the cattle out, I should no longer be able to milk them"

- "Parable", Tolstoy

I admit, I like that one. Besides that, though, I don't have much use for Tolstoy as an "Christian anarchist".

(Although he did write War and Peace, widely considered to be one of the greatest literary works of the last 200 years.)

The Douche

24th October 2008, 16:05

^^^Like I said, I do not deny that religion motivates people to positive world views. But if you accept christianity then you reject anarchism and communism.

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 17:34

The bourgeoisie are in power because that is god's plan,

No.

Tolstoy can eat a dick, and he's not an anarchist.

I think he is eating worms right now, lol

But if you accept christianity then you reject anarchism and communism.

I base a lot of my anarchism off of my Christianity. Like for instance 1 Samuels 8.

Anywho, I don't think this is helping Green Apostle at all. My advice would be to seek the advice of those who are homosexualists, :D, on how they came to realize that they were.

The Douche

24th October 2008, 17:43

No.

Yes, nothing happens outside of god's will.

I think he is eating worms right now, lol

Thank goodness his effect on the anarchist movement was and has remained minute.

I base a lot of my anarchism off of my Christianity. Like for instance 1 Samuels 8.

Did you just post the wrong scripture? Haha, cause I happen to be familiar with that text off hand, and as I recall doesn't Samuel tell the Israelites in no uncertain terms "god is your king"? Haha, your anarchism is based off of submitting to a king?:laugh:

which doctor

24th October 2008, 17:57

Although the topic of this thread has drifted, I will address your initial concern about homosexuality.

Don't worry if you're gay or straight or bi or whatever. Don't lock yourself in to a specific sexuality while you're so young. I'm attracted to women and men, but I don't even like calling myself bisexual. You will be attracted to whomever you are attracted to. I used to be confused about my sexuality, but then I just stopped worrying about.

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 18:33

Yes, nothing happens outside of god's will.

I disagree... sort of.

Did you just post the wrong scripture? Haha, cause I happen to be familiar with that text off hand, and as I recall doesn't Samuel tell the Israelites in no uncertain terms "god is your king"? Haha, your anarchism is based off of submitting to a king?http://www.revleft.com/vb/help-t92745/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20samuels%208&version=31#fen-NIV-7386b)] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

Basically you are to submit to no earthly King, sounds like anarchism to me. While yes, God is to be "King", but what are you to fear? You don't believe in the "invisible sky fairy". :tt2:

Don't worry if you're gay or straight or bi or whatever. Don't lock yourself in to a specific sexuality while you're so young. I'm attracted to women and men, but I don't even like calling myself bisexual. You will be attracted to whomever you are attracted to. I used to be confused about my sexuality, but then I just stopped worrying about.

Sounds like sound advice to me. :)

The Douche

24th October 2008, 18:41

I disagree... sort of.

Then you are not truly a christian and those horrible secular anarchist thoughts will surely damn you to hell.

Basically you are to submit to no earthly King, sounds like anarchism to me. While yes, God is to be "King", but what are you to fear? You don't believe in the "invisible sky fairy". :tt2:

King...anarchism...no debate to be had here, totally illogical that there would be an unaccountable ruler in anarchist society. I tell you what, I'll let god be king if we get to ratify all his decisions through concensus after he discusses each of them with us and he's immediately recallable. But I don't think the "king of kings" will go for that one.

Not to mention you have interpretted that verse incorrectly. What the text says is that the Israelites have forsaken god (how dare they!!) and they seek and earthly king. This makes that dick up in the clouds mad, so he says "oh you'll get a king allright" and he sends a despot who makes the foolish Israelites sorry they ever left the side of the Lord their God.

So extend this to the real world, God sent Hitler to Germany to punish Germany from turning astray...

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 18:47

Then you are not truly a christian and those horrible secular anarchist thoughts will surely damn you to hell.

Show me the way brother cmoney, :lol:

totally illogical that there would be an unaccountable ruler in anarchist society.

Sure, if this uaccountable ruler was a human. But its not, it is God. :)

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 18:48

I really wish there was a way to delete posts. :(

cop an Attitude

24th October 2008, 18:56

I've told my youth minister and he says he'll be there to support me. I've known him forever and his word is his bond, there was no mention of hell-fire etc. and the congregation I'm with is like family. There will be some that oppose me but with the youth group's support I'm in no danger.

if you dont mind me asking what dinomination are you. I know of another pretty open group of christain protestants (mostly congrgational) called the United Church of Christ. I was a member for about 5 years until i became an atheist. I still dont agree with the idea of god but that paticilar oganzation was a good one and did a lot for the community. I still would go to some sermons for time to time to see friends, very nice and open people. there are even some large activist left movements within it, like pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro peace and even some anti-imperialists. I was just woundering since you seem to be pretty religious if you ever heard of it.

The Douche

24th October 2008, 19:05

Show me the way brother cmoney, :lol:

Sure, if this uaccountable ruler was a human. But its not, it is God. :)

So you're just giving up on having an actual debate about this topic.

You have abandoned a core tennet of christianity because it conflicts with your "anarchist" ideas. And you have abandoned a core tennet of anarchism because it conflicts with your "christian" ideas.

There can be no rulers, sky fairy or not.

How's the saying go? If god really did exist it would be necessary for man to abolish him.

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 19:11

So you're just giving up on having an actual debate about this topic.

Sure, this debate isn't helping Green Apostle at all with his problem. And in fact I think that it directs attention away from it.

You have abandoned a core tennet of christianity because it conflicts with your "anarchist" ideas.

I don't believe I have abandoned anything.

And you have abandoned a core tennet of anarchism because it conflicts with your "christian" ideas.

There are many different types of anarchists, with different things that they diverge on. And with Christian anarchists it is the belief in God. In fact it is this belief in God that is the bases of our anarchist beliefs.

Lenin's Law

24th October 2008, 19:27

Funny how this thread has the most replies and one of the most views. :laugh:

The Douche

24th October 2008, 19:31

Sure, this debate isn't helping Green Apostle at all with his problem. And in fact I think that it directs attention away from it

The religious factor does play in. Why is he apprehensive about the possibility he may be gay? Because it is a sin, which he does acknowledge.

I don't believe I have abandoned anything.

Do you deny that god has a plan for the world?

There are many different types of anarchists, with different things that they diverge on. And with Christian anarchists it is the belief in God. In fact it is this belief in God that is the bases of our anarchist beliefs.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. Some people claim to capitalist anarchists too, some even claim to national anarchists. But they are not anarchists because thier ideas run counter to anarchism, just as the belief in god runs counter to anarchism. You are either a christian or an anarchist not both. It doesn't mean you can be a radical or a progressive christian, but not an anarchist, no, that is simply not possible because you believe authority (the authority of god over his creations) to be correct. That is anti-anarchist.

Rosa Lichtenstein

24th October 2008, 19:35

One clue: you know you are gay if Christians start picking on you...:rolleyes:

The Douche

24th October 2008, 19:45

One clue: you know you are gay if Christians start picking on you...:rolleyes:

So is he going to pick on himself?

Rosa Lichtenstein

24th October 2008, 20:03

Probably: it's called 'guilt'.

freakazoid

24th October 2008, 20:41

The religious factor does play in. Why is he apprehensive about the possibility he may be gay? Because it is a sin, which he does acknowledge.

I don't know whether or not to say if its sin. I go by what Jesus said, that the entire Law hangs on loving God and loving people; if this brings people into loving relationships then I don't see how it could be sin.

If God made someone in a certain way then who is anyone to condemn them for something they had no choice in? My problem is that I don't know and I feel like I have to before doing anything. It's like crawling before walking, know before acting.

Sounds like he wouldn't have a problem with it if he was a homosexual, he just wants help in finding out if he is. And THAT is what I think needs to be focused on. His religiosness has no play in this.

The Douche

24th October 2008, 22:42

Sounds like he wouldn't have a problem with it if he was a homosexual, he just wants help in finding out if he is. And THAT is what I think needs to be focused on. His religiosness has no play in this.

He doesn't know if it is a sin or not.

Well its not a sin, cause there is no "sin" cause there is no god.

Glad I could help.:sneaky:

Rosa Provokateur

25th October 2008, 01:25

if you dont mind me asking what dinomination are you. I know of another pretty open group of christain protestants (mostly congrgational) called the United Church of Christ. I was a member for about 5 years until i became an atheist. I still dont agree with the idea of god but that paticilar oganzation was a good one and did a lot for the community. I still would go to some sermons for time to time to see friends, very nice and open people. there are even some large activist left movements within it, like pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro peace and even some anti-imperialists. I was just woundering since you seem to be pretty religious if you ever heard of it.

I go to Lake Cities Church of Christ, very autonomous and no two churches are the same. I've heard United Church of Christ mentioned but dont know anything about them.

Rosa Provokateur

25th October 2008, 01:26

sure, this debate isn't helping green apostle at all with his problem. And in fact i think that it directs attention away from it.

amen!

Dóchas

25th October 2008, 12:15

is it just me or is cmoney geting really annoying?

The Douche

26th October 2008, 04:18

is it just me or is cmoney geting really annoying?

Yeah, flame war instead of legitimate debate on issues at the core of revolutionary ideology...good plan.:thumbup:

freakazoid

26th October 2008, 06:33

lol, annoying... nah. I don't think he is right though. And I don't like getting into a disagreement with him, :( I think we need to go back to discussing firearms and burning cars, :thumbup:

Student of truth

26th October 2008, 19:07

If you call your self a christian, then you are in violation of the law of your own heart, however; people have double standards since all forms of sexual morality are considered sin. For example, people who fornicate and commit adultery, are in the same boat with homosexuals, but most don't know it. With that said, I pray and ask god to renew my mind so that I wan't be tempted to fornicate, but I have in the past. The difference between me and you is, that I know that fornication is surely a sin, but most people think homosexuality is not. Why would god destroy a whole city because of it? If I don't overcome fornication and you don't overcome homosexuallity, were both doomed. The truth hurts.

ÑóẊîöŉ

26th October 2008, 19:43

If you call your self a christian, then you are in violation of the law of your own heart, however; people have double standards since all forms of sexual morality are considered sin.

Only if you follow the laws of a bunch of racist patriarchal women-hating goat-herders.

For example, people who fornicate and commit adultery, are in the same boat with homosexuals, but most don't know it.Bullshit. Adultery is a violation of trust, homosexuality is a sexual orientation.

They are not the same.

With that said, I pray and ask god to renew my mind so that I wan't be tempted to fornicate, but I have in the past.Your god sounds pretty useless.

The difference between me and you is, that I know that fornication is surely a sin, but most people think homosexuality is not.That's because they're not bigoted assholes.

Why would god destroy a whole city because of it? If I don't overcome fornication and you don't overcome homosexuallity, were both doomed. The truth hurts.God as presented in the Bible is a spiteful, jealous piece of shit.

As long as you take precautions, there's no reason why "fornication" will "doom" you. The truth is that plenty of people are sexually active without dire consequences.

Green Apostle, don't let this preachy waste of flesh guilt-trip you into denying your feelings - explore them for yourself, frankly and honestly.

Student of truth

26th October 2008, 20:26

who erased my post, and why? I was talking to someone who is christian like myself according to what we believe in the bible. I am starting to see flaws in this system. All through the week I have been trying to convince family members and friends of the "benefits" of communism as opposed to capitialism, In which there first response was usaully about a lack of freedom. One family member immediately said "oh, you don't want to be able to serve god," to which I replied, "no, that's just how some exploited forms of communism have been." Now I'm coming to see that maybe what she said couldn't be to far from the truth, according to comments I have recieved in these forums. I can't get down with anything that is Anti-god. It is also hypocritical of those who believe in "No authority" to impose boundaries on freedom of speech, and expression of one's bielief, if it doesn't endanger the lively hood of someone else.:cursing:

Student of truth

26th October 2008, 20:32

The Bible or Noxion? which has more validity? Who will be with you until the end? :cool:

freakazoid

26th October 2008, 20:45

God didn't destroy it because of homosexuality. http://theoldbill.typepad.com/thebackroom/2005/10/things_james_do.html

The Douche

26th October 2008, 21:22

The Bible or Noxion? which has more validity? Who will be with you until the end? :cool:

Sadly I think the bible will outlast Noxion. I do wish it were the other way around though.

Rosa Provokateur

27th October 2008, 01:45

Green Apostle, don't let this preachy waste of flesh guilt-trip you into denying your feelings - explore them for yourself, frankly and honestly.

Let the brother speak. He may be wrong but his heart is in the right place and despite my disagreement with him, I still love him.

As for exploration I've decided to hook up with the local Gay/Straight Alliance and see where it goes from there. Thanks to everyone for their input and help, sorry it got so off topic.

The Douche

27th October 2008, 02:00

Let the brother speak. He may be wrong but his heart is in the right place and despite my disagreement with him, I still love him.

As for exploration I've decided to hook up with the local Gay/Straight Alliance and see where it goes from there. Thanks to everyone for their input and help, sorry it got so off topic.

He did speak, and this is what your "brother" had to say:

If I don't overcome fornication and you don't overcome homosexuallity, were both doomed. The truth hurts.

You need to "overcome" your (potential) homosexuality...

I can recognize that you are a radical and a socialist while being a christian(while not a marxist or anarchist), but this guy is a reactionary.

Rosa Provokateur

27th October 2008, 02:12

So let him be reactionary, a goal of mine is to win over reactionaries and bring them onto our side of the fense. Cant do that with him being restricted.

The Douche

27th October 2008, 02:17

Yeah you can, go see him in OI. Good luck.:closedeyes:

Vahanian

27th October 2008, 02:40

The Bible or Noxion? which has more validity? Who will be with you until the end? :cool:

The Bible will last longer But, Noxion has more validity. Hell, a Duengon & Dragons book has more validity:lol:

Labor Shall Rule

27th October 2008, 03:25

There is nothing derogatory about feeling attracted to a member of the opposite sex. It's healthy sexual behavior, and there is no text that can possibly refute that fact.

I'd argue that 'sex' does not become negative unless unconscious fetishes (such as, strangling your partner) is pushed on the other person without their consent.

ÑóẊîöŉ

27th October 2008, 03:31

Let the brother speak. He may be wrong but his heart is in the right place and despite my disagreement with him, I still love him.

You should not love those who do not love you back. To do so is to court misery on your part.

The Bible or Noxion? which has more validity? Who will be with you until the end? :cool:

Since I am a product of these times, whereas the Bible is not, I would say my opinions count for more than any expressed in the Bible.

No, I won't be with you (whatever that means) until the end (whatever that is), but the fact of the matter is that I am here right now, unlike Jesus who exists only in your head.

Demogorgon

27th October 2008, 04:00

Leviticus 20:13

Sinner.:rolleyes:

Well aren't we a nasty little bigot? You realise you are doing the exact same thing as homophobes, trying to make him feel bad for who he is? It is not for you to define what his beliefs are. There is no consensus as to what Christian means and mainstream Christianity does not base itself primarily on the Bible anyway.

He is free to believe as he wishes. He believes that homosexuality is not incompatible with his branch of Christianity, therefore there is no conflict there. If you think there should be conflict, then that is your problem, not his.

The Douche

27th October 2008, 04:11

Well aren't we a nasty little bigot? You realise you are doing the exact same thing as homophobes, trying to make him feel bad for who he is? It is not for you to define what his beliefs are. There is no consensus as to what Christian means and mainstream Christianity does not base itself primarily on the Bible anyway.

He is free to believe as he wishes. He believes that homosexuality is not incompatible with his branch of Christianity, therefore there is no conflict there. If you think there should be conflict, then that is your problem, not his.

If the word of the christian god does not define christianity then what does?

#FF0000

27th October 2008, 04:38

If the word of the christian god does not define christianity then what does?

Honestly, come off it. You aren't adding anything to the discussion, and you're de-railing the entire thread. Really, what do you aim to accomplish?

Demogorgon

27th October 2008, 07:26

If the word of the christian god does not define christianity then what does?

And what is the word of the Christian God? Certainly not the Bible, they don't believe it was written directly by God or anything like that. You can quote Levitical laws all you like, but the truth is they do not apply to Christianity because according to Christian teaching the laws in Leviticus were part of a Covenant between God and Moses that was fulfilled with the coming of Christ. That means that people are no longer bound to follow Leviticus. That is why Christians stopped practicing circumcision, to symbolise the covenant fulfilled.

Moreover, many theologians believe the laws of Leviticus were intentionally impossible to obey in order to show people that they are fallible. That, so the theory goes, is part of the reason why the harsher punishments are impossible to legally apply. The death penalty for instance is now thought by most Jewish Scholars to be outlawed by leviticus even though it is prescribed in theory for certain crimes. This isn't a new strain of thinking either, it has been the consensus for two thousand years.

At any rate, none of this is terribly relevant. What is happening here is that you are trying to make this poor fellow feel bad about his sexuality for the sake of you getting to score some cheap points at religion's expense. You are no better than a homophobe in my view.

The Douche

27th October 2008, 13:30

Honestly, come off it. You aren't adding anything to the discussion, and you're de-railing the entire thread. Really, what do you aim to accomplish?

You'll notice that I really hadn't made any posts discussing the topic (religion or homosexuality) for a little bit, until I was propmted demogorgan, I was done with the discussion, the point has been made. Christianity runs counter to marxism and anarchism. Christianity does not accept homosexuality, if the comrade was not hampered by reactionary ideas then perhaps it would be an easier descision for him to make, to explore his sexuality, the fact that he has to be afraid to explore his own sexuality is a testament to the reactionary ideas which still exist somewhere in his mind, even though he does not want them to.

And what is the word of the Christian God? Certainly not the Bible, they don't believe it was written directly by God or anything like that. You can quote Levitical laws all you like, but the truth is they do not apply to Christianity because according to Christian teaching the laws in Leviticus were part of a Covenant between God and Moses that was fulfilled with the coming of Christ. That means that people are no longer bound to follow Leviticus. That is why Christians stopped practicing circumcision, to symbolise the covenant

Blah blah blah, the debate has been had. The majority of christians do believe the bible, you are wrong, simple fact, the bible is the word of god written by man, even the OP acknowledged he believes in the bible (but only when it quotes jesus).

At any rate, none of this is terribly relevant. What is happening here is that you are trying to make this poor fellow feel bad about his sexuality for the sake of you getting to score some cheap points at religion's expense. You are no better than a homophobe in my view.

You chose to start it up again by attacking one of my posts once the debate had already slowed down/was stopping. I'm not making him feel bad about his sexuality, I'm pointing out to him the guilt imposed on him by his clinging to a reactionary idea. And I am not the only one who has done so, I am just the only one to defend thier arguements.

In short, fuck off, thread was done before you posted in here.

Demogorgon

27th October 2008, 15:42

Blah blah blah, the debate has been had. The majority of christians do believe the bible, you are wrong, simple fact, the bible is the word of god written by man, even the OP acknowledged he believes in the bible (but only when it quotes jesus).

No they don't. If you think that most of the worlds billion or so Christians believe that the Bible is the literal word of God then you have a serious trouble.

But by all means if you want to try and best me at theology...bring it on.

You chose to start it up again by attacking one of my posts once the debate had already slowed down/was stopping. I'm not making him feel bad about his sexuality, I'm pointing out to him the guilt imposed on him by his clinging to a reactionary idea. And I am not the only one who has done so, I am just the only one to defend thier arguements.

In short, fuck off, thread was done before you posted in here.
I shall do no such thing. You are a bully trying to use a person's sexuality against them in order to try and force them to adopt your position. The fellow is quite capable of reconciling his sexuality with his religion and does not believe that his God is homophobic. If you want to insist that he should go through personal anguish because of his sexuality and his religion that is your problem. But the hang-ups are yours, not his.

I am sorry, but you have riled me up here. I will not tolerate anyone trying to use another's sexuality to try and bully them into agreeing with this, that or the next position. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Demogorgon

27th October 2008, 15:46

Incidentally, as to the original question, you are a little older than is normal to be going through this, but you could well be a late bloomer. Anyway teenagers often do go through a phase where they will fuck a lamppost if that is what is available, which can make it hard to pin down a sexuality.

You have to remember though that sexuality is not binary and that you could well be bisexual. At any rate, you will know for sure with time. Don't leap into anything just yet.

The Douche

27th October 2008, 22:01

No they don't. If you think that most of the worlds billion or so Christians believe that the Bible is the literal word of God then you have a serious trouble.

I did not say literal. I said christians believe in the bible. This is a fact, if christians did not believe in the bible then where would they get thier religious ideas from?

You are a bully trying to use a person's sexuality against them in order to try and force them to adopt your position.

No I said that if wants to make exploring his sexuality easier then he should reevaluate his religious ideas. This is a valid point, I then demonstrated why his religion would interefere with rational thought in both the contexts of potential sexuality and as a revolutionary.

freakazoid

27th October 2008, 22:52

No I said that if wants to make exploring his sexuality easier then he should reevaluate his religious ideas.

HIS religious beliefs are not interfering with him trying to figure out which sex he is attracted to.

DreamWeaver

27th October 2008, 23:24

Haha this is golden! Is this funny or is that just the shrooms working? Nevermind...

My young friend, do not fear a book or what people have taught you over the years. Be what you are, most people in their teens worry at some point or another that they might be homosexual. I've been there, and right now I'm open to whatever drops on my doorstep. I know I'm far from gay, but I can't say I'm certain that I won't ever fall in love with a man. Who cares, get out there, experiment, and don't let others hold you back because they think it is wrong. The truth is out there :)

Rosa Provokateur

27th October 2008, 23:25

Good news everybody, I'M GAY! Yepper. Came out to one of my friends yesterday and I'm in the process of slowly making it public. God answered my prayers and lead me to my true identity and no, it doesnt conflict with my faith.

I want to say thanks to everybody for their help and the entertainment that cmoney has provided during the entire discussion. Sorry you're so bent up about my ideas cmoney but I love you anyway man. Peace:cool:

Holden Caulfield

27th October 2008, 23:26

well done, its a brave step, :thumbup:

but what does the bible say about your sexuality?

27th October 2008, 23:31

Good news everybody, I'M GAY! Yepper. Came out to one of my friends yesterday and I'm in the process of slowly making it public. God answered my prayers and lead me to my true identity and no, it doesnt conflict with my faith.

really god came an tell you that you are gay?Thats a new one, a job of god i have never heard again!:lol:

Fuserg9:star:

freakazoid

27th October 2008, 23:33

Congrats on figuring it out man, :)

Rosa Provokateur

27th October 2008, 23:40

The Old Testament calls it an abomination but I think Demogorgon has explained that that no longer holds. Jesus said that to fulfill the commandments you must love God and love everyone as much as you love yourself, I think by having a relationship with a guy (preferably a good looking one) I am fulfilling those commandments.

Rosa Provokateur

27th October 2008, 23:46

really god came an tell you that you are gay?Thats a new one, a job of god i have never heard again!:lol:

Fuserg9:star:
Well its been said that the Lord works in mysterious ways. He didnt say I was but said that He'd love me even if I was and that the love He's given me, I should share with someone else.

freakazoid

27th October 2008, 23:53

The Old Testament calls it an abomination but I think Demogorgon has explained that that no longer holds.

http://theoldbill.typepad.com/thebackroom/2005/10/things_james_do.html :) Also Demogorgon also speaks truth.

Rosa Provokateur

28th October 2008, 00:32

http://theoldbill.typepad.com/thebackroom/2005/10/things_james_do.html :) Also Demogorgon also speaks truth.
Excellent article, I advocate that everybody give it a read.

Demogorgon

28th October 2008, 06:18

I did not say literal. I said christians believe in the bible. This is a fact, if christians did not believe in the bible then where would they get thier religious ideas from?

There are a lot of sources, but let's suppose you are right. If Christians are basing their beliefs on the Bible, presumably they hod to the Biblical statements that the covenant with Moses has been fulfilled?

No I said that if wants to make exploring his sexuality easier then he should reevaluate his religious ideas. This is a valid point, I then demonstrated why his religion would interefere with rational thought in both the contexts of potential sexuality and as a revolutionary.
Quite plainly it is not. I say again, you are the one with issues here, not him.

And to Green Apostle, congratulations on coming out.

Decolonize The Left

28th October 2008, 07:00

http://theoldbill.typepad.com/thebackroom/2005/10/things_james_do.html :) Also Demogorgon also speaks truth.

All that article explains is how obscure and absolutely pointless it is to try and use the Bible as anything definitive.

Each and every note by the author is saying, 'well, this could be read this way or it could be read this way, we can't really say....' The author then actually points out how the Bible ought not to be used for any literal purposes given the amount of ridiculous statements within it!

One cannot logically conclude that because a text is too obscure to understand that it therefore supports X or doesn't support X - it's obscure! Given this fact it ought not to be used to justify anything for it cannot be accurately verified by any number of individuals occupying any number of positions.

- August