After the US election

[KurtFF8]

It's interesting and sad to see how something that should be inconsequential to the left like a Presidential Election has displayed divides within the left in the US.

All of the talk of parties and organizations that take the stance that individuals ought to vote for the Democrats or not seems to be overemphasized, and I think that overemphasis is a result of the overemphasis of elections (esp. the US election) in America themselves.

When you think about it though, why are leftists worrying so much about whether other leftists are going to vote for Democrats or vote at all. When you compare the effort it takes to physically go vote compared to organizing a march or any other action, it seems to be as unimportant as posting an opinion of a politician on an internet message board. Yet the left spends so much time on this because some on the left say that one should "pick the lesser of two evils".

From the strategic voting perspective: yes this position actually makes sense. That's not to say that voting itself is a valuable expenditure of time, but that the argument itself is indeed being made by plenty of "radicals" and we shouldn't spend so much time continuing to split over it.

It is my hope, and prediction even that after the US election that there will be more of a sense of unity among the left, not as a result of an Obama presidency, but instead of this issue no longer being an issue. I may be too optimistic here or even overemphasizing this issue myself, but I've seen quite some effort spent by the left over the issue and it's quite frustrating. Now if the Communsit Party comes out and starts supporting Obama's initiaves as President, then perhaps it is indeed time to completley dismiss them (although many see them as already quite irrelevant, and justifably so). But until we see "revolutionary groups" openly supporting capitalist governments and their actions (not to be confused with saying that it is worth it to vote for the "lesser of two evils") then perhaps we shouldn't waste so much time worrying about it.

And as a side note for those curious: I'm voting for PSL ;) But mainly voting because there are referreunda on the ballot.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Whether or not you vote is irrelevant. It's not going to change anything. Communists criticize "leftists" who lead workers to the capitalist Democratic Party instead of fighting for the independence of the working class.

[jake williams]

The election is probably irrelevant because McCain has fucked his own campaign and Obama is like ten points ahead. If this election were actually as ludicrously close as some have been in the past, getting the "revolutionary left vote" out might actually be a worthwhile tactical decision. In that case the only relevant discussion would be about whether you want a worsened more blatant assault on working people or a quieter friendlier assault on working people. But by now it's almost irrelevant and not really worth the bother.

[KurtFF8]

Whether or not you vote is irrelevant. It's not going to change anything.

That's half of my point, it's not a big deal yet the left seems to be focusing on it, or at least getting caught up in the election to some extent which is also increasing (or perhaps just underlying) divisions)


Communists criticize "leftists" who lead workers to the capitalist Democratic Party instead of fighting for the independence of the working class.

And I think that's valid, but depending on what extent other "leftists" are arguing for support of the Democrats. If they say something along the lines of, "well if you're going to vote, you might as well vote democrat" that seems to make some sense at least, but if they actively go out and promote voting democrat (e.g. CPUSA) then there is indeed a problem there.


In that case the only relevant discussion would be about whether you want a worsened more blatant assault on working people or a quieter friendlier assault on working people.

Well put.

[ernie]

If they say something along the lines of, "well if you're going to vote, you might as well vote democrat" that seems to make some sense at least
I think this is still a sort of passive endorsement, especially if what you say has significant influence on others (e.g. Chomsky). We should be critical of anyone endorsing bourgeois politicians because it has a negative effect on working class consciousness. People must be sure that elections are a meaningless show before they opt for a revolutionary alternative.

On the matter of elections, the message of the left to the working class should be clear: voting will not improve your living conditions, ever! Anything less than that is, IMO, detrimental to our cause.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think there has to be a line, not necessarily a broad, bright line, but a line nevertheless, drawn between revolutionaries voting, and “revolutionaries” telling the workers to vote (this is sometimes, but not always, accompanied by “revolutionaries” putting forward a candidate of their own and telling the workers to vote for that specific candidate).

A revolutionary voting is, as Kurt and others have said, relatively harmless. Simply casting a ballot isn’t going to make a committed revolutionary question the whole structure of his or her worldview, if only because that worldview is entrenched in the revolutionary’s mind. Not only that, but revolutionaries are a pitifully small minority not just of the general population but of the working class itself, and as such are unlikely to change anything. Furthermore, voting in most bourgeois democracies is a fundamentally private act. Nobody need know you voted, and you could always lie.

A position that the working class (as far as revolutionaries are able to try to influence them and as far as the working class is open to the influence, which depends on a whole host of factors) should vote, either in general or for a specific candidate has a completely different character. Advocating participation in elections is fundamentally a public act, and it lets everyone, workers and capitalists (at least, those who are paying attention) know that you support the system of elections. Advocating a position is also a fundamentally organizational rather than an individual act; an organization advocating workers’ participation in elections is not a revolutionary organization. It is this position, that the working class as a whole has something to gain from the capitalist system, that provides that system with legitimacy and destroys the revolutionary credibility of an organization.

0.02