SWP in NYC

[magnus]

So the SWP in NYC has the tactic of making its members work in factories or minimum wage jobs so they can be "closer to the working class".
One member of the SWP that refused to work in a low paying factory job since he had a wife and kids to take care off, got expelled from the party.
Is this the real attitude of Leninist organizations?

On a side note the leader of the organization just sold his 2 million$ appartment!

[Saorsa]

The SWP are a nutty cult. Their members dues (and the revenue from Pathfinder Press in all likelihood) pay for the leaders apartment!

[magnus]

he SWP are a nutty cult. Their members dues (and the revenue from Pathfinder Press in all likelihood) pay for the leaders apartment!

I would say that their members are honest revolutionaries who want to change the world.
The leadership on the other hand in Greece(SEK) , in the US and in various other counties is lunatic.
For example in Greece they do not even support the guerillas of 1940-1949 who had popular support and fought against German, Italian, American and British imperialism!

[bretty]

Could someone please elaborate on this? I used to do tabling with the Communist league who was associated with the SWP. I'd like to know if this is trolling, or what.

[magnus]

Could someone please elaborate on this? I used to do tabling with the Communist league who was associated with the SWP. I'd like to know if this is trolling, or what

Well I found out about this from a comrade in the US. He is also a user on revleft and he told me to make an account here!
I don't know his username but he can confirm it.
Also from what I know this story and similar ones have created a lot of problems in the SWP. The leadership is bankrupt and the members are fleeing like sailors from a sinking boat.

[chicanorojo]

If you google for the NYT (IIRC) reg. their stories on uptown life you will get the info the SWP apts's and the $$$ from it. Of course, the article doesn't mention SWP, but reading the names you get the idea.

[JimmyJazz]

Funny, I just read about the $1.8 million apartment sale by Jack Barnes/Mary-Alice Waters on the SWP's wiki page this morning. I suppose it's possible they owned it for a long time and it went up in value or something, but I still don't like it much.

Comrade Alistair and chegitz guevara have both now called them a "cult", so I'm pretty much steering clear of them until I know a little more. I had been considering them alongside the PSL and SPUSA as good American parties to work with. They certainly have a lot of history (founded 1938, came partially out of the 1934 Teamster rebellion, helped form the Fourth International).

[Q]

The American SWP was a great force in the past but over the years degenerated sadly.
And Pathfinder is still owned by them? I thought it was a commercial press? Judging from the prices of their books it certainly looks that way!

[Saorsa]

I don't know, I assume they still own it, or at least have a certain amount of control over it.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

I used to be affiliated with SWP before I had a political reawakening, they are good people with their hearts in the right place I feel but simply have some archaic ideas about revolution (among other things), namely the whole "return to industry" tactic... Newsflash: most American workers are not in manual labor anymore, how can you expect to create a revolution when you are completely out of touch with the millions of Americans that work in different fields (e.g. the service industry)??

[Lenin's Law]

Sadly, this is all true. Their leader Jack Barnes tells its members to leave their own jobs and instead take poverty-wage jobs for $7 an hour while he himself has never worked in an industrial job and lives in a 2 million dollar apartment.

Sounds both cultish and incredibly hypocritical.

Oh and to answer OP's second question:

Hell NO this is not the attitude of Leninist organizations -it is the attitude of cults and sects who do great harm to the revolutionary left overall.

[Tower of Bebel]

Reminds me of AMADA (Alle Macht Aan De Arbeiders - All Power To The Workers), the first Belgian Maoist party of the late 60's and 70's (now the Belgian Labour Party). At that time they had the same idea of getting closer to the workers: become an industrial worker.

[Yehuda Stern]

Although Barnes really is scum, I don't like it when criticism of a left group bases itself on the corruption of that group's leaders. I think it is much more valuable theoretically and correct to first criticize the theoretical and political failings of a group and only then to show how they lead to personal corruption. In the SWP's case, certainly both their positions and the corruption of Barnes and co. show a great deal of cynicism and pessimism with regards to the building of a revolutionary world party and the workers' revolution.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Barnes in the SWP, and North in the SEP, run parties that are as "degenerated" as the Soviet state that they write polemics about.

[Magdalen]

I believe the Communist League, the Pathfinder Tendency's UK branch (or the Militant Mob, as I've heard them nicknamed), sends all its members to work in the meat packing industry.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That's not a New York specific policy. The SWP started its "turn to industry" in 1978. It sends party members to industries it views as key or prone to outbreaks of struggle against the bosses.

[Valeofruin]

So the SWP in NYC has the tactic of making its members work in factories or minimum wage jobs so they can be "closer to the working class".
One member of the SWP that refused to work in a low paying factory job since he had a wife and kids to take care off, got expelled from the party.
Is this the real attitude of Leninist organizations?

On a side note the leader of the organization just sold his 2 million$ appartment!

they arent leninist

[timbaly]

they arent leninist

They came off as very lenninist-trotskyist to me during my short association with them in New York.


If you google for the NYT (IIRC) reg. their stories on uptown life you will get the info the SWP apts's and the $$$ from it. Of course, the article doesn't mention SWP, but reading the names you get the idea.

Can you elaborate on this, I can't find it. I'm not sure why I can't, but maybe you could post a link.


So the SWP in NYC has the tactic of making its members work in factories or minimum wage jobs so they can be "closer to the working class".
One member of the SWP that refused to work in a low paying factory job since he had a wife and kids to take care off, got expelled from the party.
Is this the real attitude of Leninist organizations?

On a side note the leader of the organization just sold his 2 million$ appartment!

This story sounds a little crazy. I used to go to some of their meetings and I never heard about this policy, though I was never an official member. Get your friend to post the details on this thread as soon as you can.

As for the apartment value, I bet it's not as crazy as it looks. My parents bought in NYC in 1994 for somewhere between $250,000 and $280,000 and it's now worth $849,000. That's not even in Manhattan, the properties in Manhattan have often appreciated at even higher rates. So although it may be extravagant for SWP it's probably not as insane as it seems.

[bretty]

The people in the SWP when I was a part of the Young socialists were nothing but genuinely interested in political change. I heard Jack Barnes speak, he is a smart guy but I won't comment on his integrity or character considering I do not know him. But the organization itself has great people in it.

As far as the turn to industry, I did theoretical classes and tabling with them, and I believe it is true they do encourage this type of movement to jobs of the sort.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I hope the lessons of sectoral chauvinism are taken by the rest of the left. We don't need any more of this "workerist" crap.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

The people in the SWP when I was a part of the Young socialists were nothing but genuinely interested in political change. I heard Jack Barnes speak, he is a smart guy but I won't comment on his integrity or character considering I do not know him. But the organization itself has great people in it.

As far as the turn to industry, I did theoretical classes and tabling with them, and I believe it is true they do encourage this type of movement to jobs of the sort.

They don't just encourage it, they REQUIRE it of party members.

A lot of parties used to do the same thing, if I'm not mistaken even the RCP had a similar policy.

And the SWP is definitely a Leninist organization, simply more of a post-Trotskyist faction with close ties with the Cuban Communist Party.

[bretty]

They don't just encourage it, they REQUIRE it of party members.

A lot of parties used to do the same thing, if I'm not mistaken even the RCP had a similar policy.

And the SWP is definitely a Leninist organization, simply more of a post-Trotskyist faction with close ties with the Cuban Communist Party.

Yeah they do require it.

I'd also like to note, I got kicked out because I didn't go to enough activities. I'm sorry but should they really be kicking interested young students out of the young socialists because i'm busy with other commitments like a full course load at university and a factory job. Seemed kind of unfair at the time.

[Sam_b]

The leadership on the other hand in Greece(SEK) , in the US and in various other counties is lunatic.

I shoud just make a distinction here. The SEK are part of the IST, which is also what the British SWP is in. The SWP in America have nothing to do with us.

[Yehuda Stern]

That's not a New York specific policy. The SWP started its "turn to industry" in 1978. It sends party members to industries it views as key or prone to outbreaks of struggle against the bosses.

Is it true that the original PoWR / FPM members came from the SWP?


They came off as very lenninist-trotskyist to me during my short association with them in New York.

I would argue that it is neither, but even they don't claim to be Trotskyist anymore - they repudiated Trotskyism in the 1980s because according to them it has been proven by the Cuban revolution that Trotskyism is irrelevant. They really just carried the notion of a workers' revolution in Cuba to its final conclusion.


I hope the lessons of sectoral chauvinism are taken by the rest of the left. We don't need any more of this "workerist" crap.

Do you deny that the revolutionary party needs to make sure that its composition is mostly conscious workers?


I shoud just make a distinction here. The SEK are part of the IST, which is also what the British SWP is in. The SWP in America have nothing to do with us.

That name change in 1978 doesn't look that smart today, eh? : )

[timbaly]

I would argue that it is neither, but even they don't claim to be Trotskyist anymore - they repudiated Trotskyism in the 1980s because according to them it has been proven by the Cuban revolution that Trotskyism is irrelevant. They really just carried the notion of a workers' revolution in Cuba to its final conclusion.

That's interesting to know and surprising. The group in New York really fooled me, it seems like they still have some lingering elements of Trotskyism left in them.

What do you mean by that last sentence? I don't understand the end of it about the final conclusion.

[Yehuda Stern]

Yeah, the SWP don't have honesty as their strong suit unfortunately.

What I meant by the last sentence is that the meaning of accepting the Cuban revolution as having created a healthy workers' state logically leads to repudiation of the theory of permanent revolution. 'Trotskyists' who do not do this are simply inconsistent in their logic.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Yeah, the SWP don't have honesty as their strong suit unfortunately.

What I meant by the last sentence is that the meaning of accepting the Cuban revolution as having created a healthy workers' state logically leads to repudiation of the theory of permanent revolution. 'Trotskyists' who do not do this are simply inconsistent in their logic.

Very good point. Their bookstores sell pretty much everything Trotsky as well as Lenin and Marx but their party line is why I call them post-Trots. The book "Their Trotsky and Ours" that Jack Barnes wrote pretty much writes off the concept of permanent revolution, but it also called Nicaragua a genuine socialist state :lol:

[Sam_b]

That name change in 1978 doesn't look that smart today, eh? : )

Who cares? They're tiny and irrelevant. :p

[Yehuda Stern]

I love how every left group that has 3 people more than another calls their rivals tiny and irrelevant. That's just not stupid and sectarian at all.

[timbaly]

Very good point. Their bookstores sell pretty much everything Trotsky as well as Lenin and Marx but their party line is why I call them post-Trots.

So true. Their bookstore in New York is packed with Trotsky writings.

[Sendo]

Salting ain't bad, but it's silly to enforce it on people who have kids to feed. I knew some young adult in IWW who salted, which is going to workplaces for the purpose of plugging the Wobblies. AT least there, the dues are so low and stay local.

But the SWP is a nutty cult. Whereas the IWW at least sounds appealing, I can't imagine to many workers wanting to join some rambling, elitist, Trotskyist party. I'm sorry, but Lenin and Trotsky ramble and ramble. If you think Kapital is thick, good Lord, ANYTHING from those Russians is a brick wall. Reading them is a fucking chore.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Is it true that the original PoWR / FPM members came from the SWP?

No.


That's interesting to know and surprising. The group in New York really fooled me, it seems like they still have some lingering elements of Trotskyism left in them.

In 1982, Barnes delivered his "Their Trotsky and Ours" speech in which he called for the rejection of the label "Trotskyist" because it distanced the SWP from the revolutions in Cuba, Grenada, Nicaragua and El Salvador. He didn't call for the rejection of all of Trotsky's ideas, though he argued that the theory of "permanent revolution" was incorrect and that "anti-capitalist revolutions" would first produce "workers and farmers governments" which would deal with democratic tasks before moving on to socialist ones.

They still subscribe to a number of Trotsky's ideas, and they still print and sell a number of his writings.

[Jay Rothermel]

Building fractions of SWP cadre in targeted trade unions (UMWA, UFCW, and UNITE-HERE) is not a tactic. It has been party strategy wherever there are SWP branches for the last 30 years!

[Honggweilo]

Reminds me of AMADA (Alle Macht Aan De Arbeiders - All Power To The Workers), the first Belgian Maoist party of the late 60's and 70's (now the Belgian Labour Party). At that time they had the same idea of getting closer to the workers: become an industrial worker. I didnt see ludo martens living in a 2 million apartment though :rolleyes:. Peter Mertens is the only payed employee of the PVDA with a monthly income of 1400 euro's

But anyway, its a bit sad, if this story is true. I do respect the American SWP for some of their down to earth, least-sectarian trot positions, and their membership in the WFDY. I know alot of european communist parties made alot of income through the increasing value of their real estate which was aquired durring the resistance. But they never used it for anything else then social-centers, party offices, cheap housing for members, publishing houses, ect.


In 1982, Barnes delivered his "Their Trotsky and Ours" speech in which he called for the rejection of the label "Trotskyist" because it distanced the SWP from the revolutions in Cuba, Grenada, Nicaragua and El Salvador. He didn't call for the rejection of all of Trotsky's ideas, though he argued that the theory of "permanent revolution" was incorrect and that "anti-capitalist revolutions" would first produce "workers and farmers governments" which would deal with democratic tasks before moving on to socialist ones. Proves my former point