what will happen if i kill someone in a communist society

[Elliot_R]

i'm curious because of the absense of a legal system. now marx said there would be no government, or temporary, however that would mean people are free to do as they please, free to do immoral stuff. so what will prevent me from not killing someone? say i really dislike this person and there would only a benefit from killing him. under our current structure, laws are put in place and punnishment as a consequence to defer people. so i would never kill anyone now because i dont want to go to jail for the rest of my life.

[Drace]

There will be a semi-state, controlled by the people.
There still will be authority, just in the hands of which people choose to give them, so
a legal system surely will be in place.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Are you seriously telling me that the only thing that's stopping you from killing is the fact that you'll go to jail if caught?

[Elliot_R]

"There still will be authority, just in the hands of which people choose to give them, soa legal system surely will be in place." but marx said there wouldnt be. who gets to be in authority? what kind of moral basis would there be to the legal system? "Are you seriously telling me that the only thing that's stopping you from killing is the fact that you'll go to jail if caught?" that defers people from killing. obviously people do it anyways, but there would be far greater if there were no legal ssytem because there would be no potential cost but only benefit

[GPDP]

You'd have to be a complete psychopath if you'd seriously consider killing a person in a society where there shouldn't be any material benefit for such an act.

In the case of such people, I don't see why the community wouldn't take action against an aggressor.

[Elliot_R]

yes there would be a benefit. not having that person plague society. what would the verdict be? without courts and stuff how would we know he is guilty? also what will happen to him? will he be killed?

[GPDP]

And who are you to say that that particular person is a plague upon society?

IMO, no one should be killed. Even the lowest of the low do not deserve death. Some would actually claim death is too benign a punishment for such people, but whatever. My particular view is that a society that decides the undesirable deserve death is a sick society.

[Elliot_R]

so then what would be the punnishment or potential punnishments that society would decide upon?

[GPDP]

I kinda like what they do over in Norway. The maximum sentence is like 23 years IIRC, and they put you in a nice little shack by the lake, where you're forced to do chores and manual labor.

[#FF0000]

I kinda like what they do over in Norway. The maximum sentence is like 23 years IIRC, and they put you in a nice little shack by the lake, where you're forced to do chores and manual labor.

One might not even get that in an anarchist society, because as stated earlier, one would have to be a psychopath to kill when there's no material to do so.

So, there will be rehabilitation, and a community organized trial. Or perhaps something else.

[Labor Shall Rule]

i'm curious because of the absense of a legal system. now marx said there would be no government, or temporary, however that would mean people are free to do as they please, free to do immoral stuff. so what will prevent me from not killing someone? say i really dislike this person and there would only a benefit from killing him. under our current structure, laws are put in place and punnishment as a consequence to defer people. so i would never kill anyone now because i dont want to go to jail for the rest of my life.

You'll be placed into a community release program where you'll be rehabilitated. I'd imagine that most murder cases in a classless, stateless world would be "love crimes" - or criminal acts carried out on another person to relieve great stress in one's personal and social life. It's primarily a genetic and neurological distress that needs to be met with the proper care.

I'd probably have doctors give you drugs that will raise levels of serotonin to calm aggressive behavior.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

We'd make sex on top of a commodity to increase it's use value.

[Bilan]

I would personally come and beat you up.

[Demogorgon]

One might not even get that in an anarchist society, because as stated earlier, one would have to be a psychopath to kill when there's no material to do so.

There will always be material reasons to kill, No anarchist or Communist society can abolish jilted lovers, drunken rages and so forth. It is simply naive to think that only sociopaths will kill.

Anyway as for murderers. hey ought to go to jail until such time as they are rehabilitated. I don't believe people should have to spend life in prison except in the most extreme circumstances, but certainly murderers should expect to spend considerable time in jail.

[#FF0000]

There will always be material reasons to kill, No anarchist or Communist society can abolish jilted lovers, drunken rages and so forth. It is simply naive to think that only sociopaths will kill.

That's true. Many murders are crimes of passion.

[GPDP]

Indeed. I suppose what I meant are material reasons arrived at through rational thought. Cold, calculated murder, if you will. That seems to be what Elliot is referring to, not some mere spur-of-the-moment slaughter.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Are you seriously telling me that the only thing that's stopping you from killing is the fact that you'll go to jail if caught?

God Good unleash the floodgates of Hell!

[Ken]

You'd have to be a complete psychopath if you'd seriously consider killing a person in a society where there shouldn't be any material benefit for such an act.




IMO, no one should be killed. Even the lowest of the low do not deserve death. Some would actually claim death is too benign a punishment for such people, but whatever. My particular view is that a society that decides the undesirable deserve death is a sick society.

you really are an anarchist idort.

[Hiero]

"There still will be authority, just in the hands of which people choose to give them, soa legal system surely will be in place." but marx said there wouldnt be.

Where?

The state is an apparatus to manage class conflict.

The practical side is taken up in another way. You kill someone, you will be judged by your community.

[Bud Struggle]

Where?

The state is an apparatus to manage class conflict.

The practical side is taken up in another way. You kill someone, you will be judged by your community.

How would that be done? Could the accused be sure of a fair and impartial trial? Would there be a police force to detain the accused and question the witnesses? Would there be people to look for forensic evidence? what would be the rules of evidence? Would there be a fair and impartial judge?

All this would be quite difficult without a state system. Without the stste--you would have something like they had in the old "hang 'um high" West.

Also, some people may be for rehabilitation--some for punishment--who would decide which rule of law would apply.

Difficult questions for a random group of community members.

[JimmyJazz]

so what will prevent me from not killing someone?

Nothing. In a communist society, you will be free to not kill as many people as you want.

[danyboy27]

One might not even get that in an anarchist society, because as stated earlier, one would have to be a psychopath to kill when there's no material to do so.

So, there will be rehabilitation, and a community organized trial. Or perhaps something else.

power can make peoples kill a lot more than material gain.

[Plagueround]

power can make peoples kill a lot more than material gain.

What kind of power exactly? To have power over someone, you have to have a reason for them to submit to that power. If you don't make material gains, what power would you hold?

[timbaly]

I think it's a little too optimistic to say that nobody would even kill someone in a communist society. Perhaps by then people will be in such a different mindset from where we are now that the thought might net ever cross ones mind. Who can really say?

If someone did kill another person I think local people would investigate or send for outside help and experts to investigate the the crime scene and come up with a conclusion of what happened. The local people would then likely form some kind of trial and come to a verdict of what is to be done. I doubt that the death penalty would be an option, so I'm thinking the person might be sent to a rehabilitation facility of some kind.

Does anyone know what the customary practice for dealing with murderers was in any place in sub-saharan Africa before European colonization? I believe that none of their societies had prisons, or perhaps only a very small minority did. Maybe we can borrow some ideas from one those societies. I'm guessing that if the punishment was servitude in some places it likely was not a permanent condition everywhere.

[danyboy27]

What kind of power exactly? To have power over someone, you have to have a reason for them to submit to that power. If you don't make material gains, what power would you hold?


the power of control, the power of imposing your idea over other peoples.

you need:

-weapons
-supporter
-an ideology

and with that deadly mix, you will make people die snap! like that!

[Drace]

You go to jail.

[pusher robot]

You go to jail.

But since it's communism, you do pass Go, and you do collect $200.

[GPDP]

But since it's communism, you do pass Go, and you do collect $200.

I lol'd.

[Plagueround]

the power of control, the power of imposing your idea over other peoples.

you need:

-weapons
-supporter
-an ideology

and with that deadly mix, you will make people die snap! like that!

And what gains would be made with that? What would that control enable?

[Elliot_R]

well I will be more tempted to kill under communism because the punnishments are so light and there are no real cops right? it's a communal decision, so theres no lawyers or anything or trials. it's just whatever the people want. how can you account for the rise of murders that will inevitably take place? perhaps it's the lack of order in society. to blame murder on an individual's "material conditions" is simply outlandish. do you reckon all crimes are result of capitalism. thats absurd. people have no less motive (and probably MORE due to lenient punnishments) than those under capitlaism.

[Plagueround]

well I will be more tempted to kill under communism because the punnishments are so light and there are no real cops right?

What's your motive?


it's a communal decision, so theres no lawyers or anything or trials. it's just whatever the people want. how can you account for the rise of murders that will inevitably take place?On what basis do you know murder will inevitably occur?


perhaps it's the lack of order in society. to blame murder on an individual's "material conditions" is simply outlandish.When the system makes life such an unnecessary struggle for so many people, you don't think that has anything to do with the amount of crimes that people commit that are motivated by material possessions?


do you reckon all crimes are result of capitalism. thats absurd.I don't think anyone has said that, and if they have they're incorrect.


people have no less motive (and probably MORE due to lenient punnishments) than those under capitlaism.I believe studies have shown that harsh punishment (such as the death penalty) do not successfully act as a deterrent.

[Elliot_R]

my motive would be to get rid of someone i dont like. and i get to live on a nice little island. sweet! i'm starting to love communism now! murder always occurs regardless of the system. you cant change people and make them all good obidient robots. thus people will kill. so people will commit crimes because of the prospect of material possessions? using that logic, people might commit more crimes under communism because there's no possibility of getting rich, so they might steal so they can have more than their neighbour.you're wrong harsh punishment not being a deterrent, look at singapore for example.

[Drace]

Elliot, I'll shoot you myself.

Your the only one whos loony enough to cause a threat.

[Elliot_R]

but i want to enjoy the communist punishment (which really isnt) how about all the rich capitalists? do they not pose a threat? or the sociopaths? they dont? or the people who just want stuff? you're dealing with an awfully lot of variables and to simply simplify it to crime will limited because the conditions are ideal. firstly that's completely subjective. secondly you're not going to limit crime because crime ALWAYS happens and regardless of the cirumstances. there's a gazillion motives for commiting crimes and the communist system seems ideal considering their light stance or crime. i reckon we should start this ASAP.

[Algernon]

Some interesting thoughts being tossed about here. I agree with Demogorgon's assessment... there will always be crime regardless of material advantages or motives. I volunteer at my school's community legal clinic and we deal with this sort of thing all the time. Assaults, domestic abuse, thefts... sometimes for material gain to be sure, but very often it's a matter of intoxication, ego battles, or just plain impulse. I don't think abolishing private property will abolish any of these things.

It seems to me from reading some of these posts (and perhaps I have misinterpreted) that communism (or anarchism) requires or assumes that people in such a society will be 100% rational all of the time, that people will do a cost-benefit analysis before performing any crime. Unfortunately I don't think that's how people work. We so often do irrational things that we need a system that accounts for that somehow, not one that simply wishes the problem away.

Also, some have suggested that law enforcement and the legal process will be managed by the local community. I realize this is pure speculation but I'm wondering if anyone can elaborate on this? It sounds like mob justice to me. On the surface this appears to be an underestimation of how complex and nuanced a legal system is. Do you envision lawyers? Judges? Again I know it's speculation but I'm interested in how you envision this working.

I will leave it at that for now as I don't want to repeat other posts. TomK had some good questions, so I guess I will wait for answers.

[Plagueround]

my motive would be to get rid of someone i dont like

And we've established that people like you would likely still exist since we can't alter all aspects of life that made you into such a miserable and disconnected person that the only thing stopping you from killing others is fear of retribution. We may be able to eliminate some of the root causes that are based in socio-political reasons though.


and i get to live on a nice little island. sweet! i'm starting to love communism now!

I don't recall saying that. Perhaps you should address what I'm saying to you instead of building these invisible scenarios to discredit something.


murder always occurs regardless of the system. you cant change people and make them all good obidient robots. thus people will kill.

I've already established that. Obviously crimes of passion will still exist, although I imagine that since many of those are the result of outside stresses building up, they may become less frequent as well.


so people will commit crimes because of the prospect of material possessions? using that logic, people might commit more crimes under communism because there's no possibility of getting rich, so they might steal so they can have more than their neighbour.

Not that I think something would happen in such a society, but to indulge the situation you describe, give me an example of something you would steal to have more than your neighbor and I'll respond.


you're wrong harsh punishment not being a deterrent, look at singapore for example.

Looking into their social and political situation, it would appear that they have feared their people into submission in almost every aspect of life and I would not exactly hold them up as a shining example. There are several other factors that must be considered such as conviction and incarceration rate, what acts are illegal, and the severity of punishment for said acts. I will look into it and offer you a better answer when I can. (You might have to remind me, I'm a bit forgetful at times.)

[Drace]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/../images/icons/icon1.gif

but i want to enjoy the communist punishment (which really isnt) how about all the rich capitalists? do they not pose a threat? or the sociopaths? they dont? or the people who just want stuff? you're dealing with an awfully lot of variables and to simply simplify it to crime will limited because the conditions are ideal. firstly that's completely subjective. secondly you're not going to limit crime because crime ALWAYS happens and regardless of the cirumstances. there's a gazillion motives for commiting crimes and the communist system seems ideal considering their light stance or crime. i reckon we should start this ASAP.



For capitalists, there is the socialist stage. :)
For you, theres me.

Lol, dude why not ASK if you don't know instead of trying to argue.
There will be a legal system, dammit.

[Killfacer]

Despite what you are saying, i find it hard to believe that you would be willing to kill someone because you dont "like" them. Thats just bullshit, shut up about this and get a life.

[pusher robot]

well I will be more tempted to kill under communism because the punnishments are so light and there are no real cops right? it's a communal decision, so theres no lawyers or anything or trials. it's just whatever the people want. how can you account for the rise of murders that will inevitably take place? perhaps it's the lack of order in society. to blame murder on an individual's "material conditions" is simply outlandish. do you reckon all crimes are result of capitalism. thats absurd. people have no less motive (and probably MORE due to lenient punnishments) than those under capitlaism.

Just make sure you kill someone unpopular, like an accused child molester or an ugly hooker.

[Ken]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/../images/icons/icon1.gif

For capitalists, there is the socialist stage. :)
For you, theres me.

Lol, dude why not ASK if you don't know instead of trying to argue.
There will be a legal system, dammit.

if thats the case, i dont want communism.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Just curious, but if you're Australian, why don't you use capitalization?

[Dr Mindbender]

i'm curious because of the absense of a legal system. now marx said there would be no government, or temporary, however that would mean people are free to do as they please, free to do immoral stuff. so what will prevent me from not killing someone? say i really dislike this person and there would only a benefit from killing him. under our current structure, laws are put in place and punnishment as a consequence to defer people. so i would never kill anyone now because i dont want to go to jail for the rest of my life.

why would you want to kill anyone? Under capitalism the vast proportion of violent crime is economically motivated. In a society without scarcity, that simply won't be an issue.

As for miscellaneous motives, like crimes of love i think the best course of action would be at the discretion of the local community groups. Or at least that seems to be the consensus of anarchists. I don't see why communist states need to be much different, with the big difference that the prison population would be a fraction of what it is now thanks to the reason above and hopefully more tactile treatment of the mentally infirm.

[Elliot_R]

this is an obviously hypothetical situation, however it illustrates the increase in criminal activity decreases if there is a tough legal system. the US doesnt count as a good example, despite harsh punishments, because it is a crap justice system (it takes forever for trials and then you have to wait on death row and everything). soz scarcity doesnt exist??? i've just been feed lies? why would people be against communism if it magically creates unlimited resources? even from a capitalist's perspective, you can have everything you want whenever you want all the time. we've organized a system in order to allocate resources efficently when there is no need because there is infinite resources. even a capitalist who has everything hes a big CEO of a corporation and he has a ton of money will be better off under communism. under communism i'm going to take a million of each type of thing because we have unlimited resources! also crimes will soar down because there are no sociopaths! there are only good-hearted people. soz how's the organization of your legal system? who gets to decide the punishment (or vacation) of the suspected criminal? a group of random people who let their own biases interfere with a rational decision? who gets to prove the guilt of the suspect?

[Dr Mindbender]

there are only good-hearted people. soz how's the organization of your legal system? who gets to decide the punishment (or vacation) of the suspected criminal? a group of random people who let their own biases interfere with a rational decision? who gets to prove the guilt of the suspect?

er, same way they do it under capitalism a judge and jury. Why are capitalistic judges and juries more adept at not letting their biases affect their descision?

I think you're clutching at straws here Elliott.

[pusher robot]

er, same way they do it under capitalism a judge and jury. Why are capitalistic judges and juries more adept at not letting their biases affect their descision?

I think you're clutching at straws here Elliott.

But, AGAIN, things like "judges" and "juries" and "courts" and "prison" all imply some kind of organized insitution of authority, i.e., a state, which, if Marx is correct does not exist under communism.

[Dr Mindbender]

But, AGAIN, things like "judges" and "juries" and "courts" and "prison" all imply some kind of organized insitution of authority, i.e., a state, which, if Marx is correct does not exist under communism.
marx didnt oppose authority per se, he opposed bosses which is an entirely different concept.

Marx advocated a worker's authority so the distinction between judiciary justice and communism is a false dichotomy.

[Algernon]

marx didnt oppose authority per se, he opposed bosses which is an entirely different concept.

Marx advocated a worker's authority so the distinction between judiciary justice and communism is a false dichotomy.

I don't think that answers the question though... how does an organized justice system exist in a stateless world?

[#FF0000]

I don't think that answers the question though... how does an organized justice system exist in a stateless world?

I'll be completely honest. We don't know for sure. We don't know what a stateless world would be like so we couldn't tell you in any detail. All we can offer are ideas as to how it'd work, but no definite answers.

[Algernon]

I'll be completely honest. We don't know for sure. We don't know what a stateless world would be like so we couldn't tell you in any detail. All we can offer are ideas as to how it'd work, but no definite answers.

I understand and I'm certainly not looking for anything definite. I am interested in hearing ideas though. :)

[ThrowTheCommieDownTheWell]

Are you seriously telling me that the only thing that's stopping you from killing is the fact that you'll go to jail if caught?

Well the only thing stopping me from getting my gun and shooting a bunch of you filthy commies dead is the jail time i'd inevitably get. So yeah, if there was no consequences, I'd happily start the cleansing of communist filth from society.

Filthy red bastards.

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't think that answers the question though... how does an organized justice system exist in a stateless world?

why shouldnt it be able to exist? There seems to be a perception among capitalism protractors that anarchy means a lawless, chaotic mad max style dystopia. People are perfectly capable of clubbing together to run their affairs without state.

That said, the OP asked what would happen under communism which doesnt necessarilly imply statelessness. Either way, i find the idea that capitalist states have some sort of monopoly on judicial correctness rather hackneyed.

A communist justice system would appropriate justice on a more down to earth level in much the same way it would organise the means of production, for example ensuring that MOP owners are correctly reprimanded and that nazi activists are put behind bars where they belong.

[Algernon]

While I'm not a communist (restriction, yessss) I have to say that was an idiotic post. People like you embarrass non-communists everywhere. At least try to engage in some sort of rational discussion.

Edit: This was in response to that troll and not you, Ulster. I'll reply to your post once I have had my tea and collected some thoughts. :glare:

[Dr Mindbender]

Well the only thing stopping me from getting my gun and shooting a bunch of you filthy commies dead is the jail time i'd inevitably get. So yeah, if there was no consequences, I'd happily start the cleansing of communist filth from society.

Filthy red bastards.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/ulstersocialist/quiz-jackson.jpg

[Dr Mindbender]

While I'm not a communist (restriction, yessss) I have to say that was an idiotic post. People like you embarrass non-communists everywhere. At least try to engage in some sort of rational discussion. :glare:

hes probably a nazi dickhead and will soon meet the business end of the banhammer.

[ThrowTheCommieDownTheWell]

Fuck you red scum. You bastards have only killed 100 million during your short time in power, so god knows what you'd do if given control of nuclear weapons 10x powerful than the one used at Hiroshima.

The only good communist is a dead communist. If this whole society-collapse thing actually happens, I shall be the first one out on the streets to purge the reds. Communists are not worthy to live on this Earth.

[Ratatosk]

By any normal person's standards, if you have a police and law and courts, you have a state. Denying that is simply dishonest.

[Dr Mindbender]

Fuck you red scum. You bastards have only killed 100 million during your short time in power, so god knows what you'd do if given control of nuclear weapons 10x powerful than the one used at Hiroshima.

The only good communist is a dead communist. If this whole society-collapse thing actually happens, I shall be the first one out on the streets to purge the reds. Communists are not worthy to live on this Earth.

shouldnt you be off fucking your sister, billy-bob?

[Dr Mindbender]

By any normal person's standards, if you have a police and law and courts, you have a state. Denying that is simply dishonest.

we will still have police and courts under communism, the difference is they will designed to protect the workers instead of the beourgiose.

[ThrowTheCommieDownTheWell]

The gas chambers are awaiting red scum. The second crusade of National Socialism will cleanse this world of reds once and for all.

[Dr Mindbender]

The gas chambers are awaiting red scum. The second crusade of National Socialism will cleanse this world of reds once and for all.

alright, run away fuckface.

You're boring us now.

[Bud Struggle]

Well the only thing stopping me from getting my gun and shooting a bunch of you filthy commies dead is the jail time i'd inevitably get. So yeah, if there was no consequences, I'd happily start the cleansing of communist filth from society.

Filthy red bastards.

A good example of the fact that economic issues aren't the only reason that people kill each other. :lol:

[ThrowTheCommieDownTheWell]

It was only the first 11 million, red scum! The second wave will eliminate those unworthy of life once and for all.

Heil Hitler! Imperialism forever!

[Dr Mindbender]

It was only the first 11 million, red scum! The second wave will eliminate those unworthy of life once and for all.

Heil Hitler! Imperialism forever!

a good example of declining standards in schools.

[ThrowTheCommieDownTheWell]

How funny that a red scum will complain about the schools largely financed by socialism. :laugh:

Filthy, dirty, unworthy red SCUM. Now that all those Jews are together in Israel, we know where to find them this time round! No more running, no more hiding, you fuckers are gonna get purged.

[Bud Struggle]

How funny that a red scum will complain about the schools largely financed by socialism. :laugh:

Filthy, dirty, unworthy red SCUM. Now that all those Jews are together in Israel, we know where to find them this time round! No more running, no more hiding, you fuckers are gonna get purged.

There are Jews just ripe for some killin'
And I mean to kill me a few!
Then those Jews don't know what they're missin',
I got a lot of killing to do!
Gassin' Commies all ready for oven'
And there's guns all shiny and new!
Gotta move, cause time is a-wastin',
There's such a lot of killin' to do! :lol:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

How funny that a red scum will complain about the schools largely financed by socialism. :laugh:

Filthy, dirty, unworthy red SCUM. Now that all those Jews are together in Israel, we know where to find them this time round! No more running, no more hiding, you fuckers are gonna get purged.

How's your relationship with your father?

[timbaly]

I don't believe that having a jury implies having a state. If you have a group of citizens that assemble to come to a decision on what to do with rule-breakers that does not equate to a state. The people of a given community should have the right to come to a decision on what is and is not acceptable behavior.

As for judges, as long as they are not professional positions they're fine. Perhaps the job of the judge would really be that of a moderator. The judge position would have to be warped into a position that made sure people are civil to each other during the trial. The judge should not be able to sentence people or over rule the jury.

If the accused or convicted thinks that the trial was unfair they should have the right to retell their story to another jury from an impartial region. This way it would be less likely to have biases since the people from another region wouldn't know you personally.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

There are Jews just ripe for some killin'
And I mean to kill me a few!
Then those Jews don't know what they're missin',
I got a lot of killing to do!
Gassin' Commies all ready for oven'
And there's guns all shiny and new!
Gotta move, cause time is a-wastin',
There's such a lot of killin' to do! :lol:

Your better then that, It aint even funny

http://www.best-of-web.com/_images/080508-215403-071007.jpg

[Bud Struggle]

Your better then that, It aint even funny

http://www.best-of-web.com/_images/080508-215403-071007.jpg

It's from (slightly altered) Bye Bye Birdie, a Broadway play that you are WAY to young to remember. :)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

After asking my grampa over msn it turns out he has never heard of it either.

[timbaly]

Ten posts were added in between the time I clicked "New Reply" and the time I submitted my previous post. That's a little insane.

At least that nazi got banned. It's ironic that he decided to post here of all places and give us an example of someone who wants to kill for non-economic gain as TomK pointed out. I'm willing to predict that if we do get to communism people won't have a reason to be racist or be nazis. They won't see the glamor in such an ideology.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't believe that having a jury implies having a state. If you have a group of citizens that assemble to come to a decision on what to do with rule-breakers that does not equate to a state. The people of a given community should have the right to come to a decision on what is and is not acceptable behavior.

As for judges, as long as they are not professional positions they're fine. Perhaps the job of the judge would really be that of a moderator. The judge position would have to be warped into a position that made sure people are civil to each other during the trial. The judge should not be able to sentence people or over rule the jury.

If the accused or convicted thinks that the trial was unfair they should have the right to retell their story to another jury from an impartial region. This way it would be less likely to have biases since the people from another region wouldn't know you personally.

Aside from a few points--your idea seems to be a bit like the justice in the Old West. Which for what it's worth also was a vaguely Anarchistic society. Lots of hanging out that a ways.

Actually the Old West might not be a bad template for what an Anarchistic society might be like. Minus the guns.

[Killfacer]

Yeah but he was clearly just a troll kid, i doubt he is actually gonna pull out a gun and hunt down some jews.

[timbaly]

Aside from a few points--your idea seems to be a bit like the justice in the Old West. Which for what it's worth also was a vaguely Anarchistic society. Lots of hanging out that a ways.

Actually the Old West might not be a bad template for what an Anarchistic society might be like. Minus the guns.

Are you saying my suggestions would lead to a society that mirrors the "wild west" or old west as you put it?

[timbaly]

Yeah but he was clearly just a troll kid, i doubt he is actually gonna pull out a gun and hunt down some jews.

100% agreed. I was going to type that in my post but I think thats mostly understood. The internet makes people act tougher than they would in person sometimes.

[pusher robot]

There are Jews just ripe for some killin'
And I mean to kill me a few!
Then those Jews don't know what they're missin',
I got a lot of killing to do!
Gassin' Commies all ready for oven'
And there's guns all shiny and new!
Gotta move, cause time is a-wastin',
There's such a lot of killin' to do! :lol:

I think what you meant to post was this:

Reds!
What the hell is wrong with these Reds today!
Reds!
Who can understand anything they say?
They are disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Reds!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Reds!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we are,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with Reds today?
Reds!

[Bud Struggle]

Are you saying my suggestions would lead to a society that mirrors the "wild west" or old west as you put it?

Not exactly, of course--but there are similar elements. But FWIW, the Wild West (happy to use your term) was an Anarchistic society in most respects.

Brother Pusher: :D :D :D

[Ratatosk]

we will still have police and courts under communism, the difference is they will designed to protect the workers instead of the beourgiose.Yeah, I understand that, so how is that "stateless"? (Not that I desire a stateless society, it's just that communists claim that communism is a stateless, classless society.)


Also, OT, but how is it possible that members of RevLeft who must see the word "bourgeoisie" still manage to keep butchering it? I'm definitely not talking about just you.

[Algernon]

That said, the OP asked what would happen under communism which doesnt necessarilly imply statelessness.

Now I'm a bit confused. Isn't the very definition of communism a "classless, stateless society"?

Anyways, I think that doing away with courts, police, prisons, etc. is wholly impractical. Their nature and practices may change but the institutions will remain. Some posts have mentioned "letting the locals run it" but again I think this is an overly simplistic approach. Most people don't realize how complicated the law can be and how many nuances have developed over time (assuming that communism will follow a common law system or something similar). I don't think you can just take Bob the electrician and tell him to serve as judge for a day. Making good legal decisions takes years of experience - it's not something that can be learned on the fly.

Either way, for a legal system to exist there must be something empowering it and providing structure. I don't see how that's possible in a stateless situation. Maybe I just can't envision it, but trying to imagine a series of governments (maybe even thousands, depending on how "local" things get) in a stateless continent leads to serious jurisdictional issues and uncertainties.

Someone mentioned punishments and their role in deterence vs. rehabilitation. I think any system should feature a mixture of both. You want to give the offender a shot at rejoining society but at the same time, if you avoid punihsment altogether that element of deterrence ("I have no problem committing this crime, all they're gonna do is put me in a program") is gone. also, whether you like it or not, retribution is a part of punishment. I think you'd have a lot of very angry victims if rehabilitation was the sole consequence for most crimes.

[Dr Mindbender]

Now I'm a bit confused. Isn't the very definition of communism a "classless, stateless society"?
.

Maybe i'm being stupid but i was always under the impression that statelessness implies anarchy not communism.

[timbaly]

Maybe i'm being stupid but i was always under the impression that statelessness implies anarchy not communism.

I've been a little confused by your posts as well. You're saying you think a communist society needs to have an organized police force and a structured judicial system, correct? What makes communism different from anarchism/anarcho-communism in your view?

[pusher robot]

I'm confused now too. Whenever somebody calls the USSR or North Korea or Mao's China or whatever "communist states" it seems like a bunch people immediately jump in to go "Impossible! Communism doesn't have states therefore those states couldn't be communist!"

[timbaly]

I'm confused now too. Whenever somebody calls the USSR or North Korea or Mao's China or whatever "communist states" it seems like a bunch people immediately jump in to go "Impossible! Communism doesn't have states therefore those states couldn't be communist!"

Those states never claimed to be communist, they claimed to be socialist. A lot of the people on this site see those countries as socialist nations that claimed they were attempting to build communism overtime.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Communism needs to be stateless there forth it needs to be in anarchy. People who describe themselves as stateist communists support a transitional phase of socialism.