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MindYourself
20th October 2008, 00:26
Some days ago, i was reading a political economy article in the official newspaper of the Greek Communist Party, the article itself being a product of its Central Comission, focused on the inevitable downfall of the capitalistic economic system.
(I strongly suspect this issue has been brought about countless times in this site, and this forum in particular, so i feel i must thank in advance those who reply for their patience.)
It analyzed how the capitalistic system leads to a huge socialization of labour, which does not produce public goods, but goods that apply to the needs of the market and that are profitable to the capitalists, thus leading to a growing inability to cover public needs, as the market itself gradually becomes a monopoly.
Using Marx's exact words, the authors predicted the above facts to lead to a social uprising, finally bringing down the way the capitalistic system works.
Perhaps my perception of Marx's theory is poor, but i think that the above do not take into account the fact that capitalism affects hugely our political and social systems and life.
In my opinion, modern times capitalism, has managed to control a great percentage of the political processes needed, to play a central-planning like role in modern societies. In my perception, big company trusts over the world have managed to pretain a sufficient (according to their profit goals) level of covering needs for the public, while they can still make profit. This method is enhanced by the fact that public medias and tight working programms prevent the vast majority from getting the adequate education and information they need to revolt. They also prevent them from getting the conscience of the potential strength their movement would hold. In few words, people lack the necessary social interaction to revolt substantially.
I say substantially, because the capital usually has the strength to withstand social pressure, by disorientating it towards the political leadership (giving thus an important example of the effects of the above mentioned hypothesis). All the capital has to do is reduce profits for just a little while (if social conscience is too high) and change the political leadership it basically funds. If not, it can practically do anything to continue making profit, even when the problem is a product of interior capitalist processes and not a product of a clash between public and capitalist interests, just like the contemporary financial crisis, when everywhere in the western world, governments use public wealth to refinance their operations.
So to sum up, i think i doubt capitalism has the ablity to destroy itself, unless something truly radical happens concerning people's social awareness to help this whole process get an end.

Enragé
20th October 2008, 00:44
There is nothing inevitable about the downfall of capitalism, i agree. Also, this is never what marx said. Marx said that, in the end, either the proletariate would be victorious, or the two classes would mutually destruct.

The whole idea of capitalism inevitably destroying itself can be traced back to Engels, not marx, and the "scientific" marxism he spawned.. which would become the mainstream marxism, notably the marxism of the communist parties.

Valeofruin
20th October 2008, 02:47
Whoever wrote the article of course fails to see how capitalism destroys itself. The destruction is due to an inevitable and purely economic. The author clearly lacks an understanding of Marxism, I am neither appalled nor suprised.

An example of 1 way capitalism aids its own destruction is what we see today. We 'bail out' a crisis of capital, by creating and injecting our core financial institutions with fictitious value.

Revolution will be brought about by economic crisis, this has become evident in recent times. The crisis will be caused by a falling rate of profit, scarcity of rescources, and a crisis of credit.

This crisis i believe is very close. The global nature of the bourgeoise has left it without a place to run and hide, we are seeing increased efficiency and overproduction, increased reliance on credit, the conditions are coming.

Essentially capitalism cant afford to pay its bills anymore, so its taking out loans, its foreclosure is inevitable.

MindYourself
21st October 2008, 14:42
The whole idea of capitalism inevitably destroying itself can be traced back to Engels, not marx, and the "scientific" marxism he spawned.. which would become the mainstream marxism, notably the marxism of the communist parties.

Well i guess that would explain the source i got it.


Marx said that, in the end, either the proletariate would be victorious, or the two classes would mutually destruct.


Through which process and with what social formation arousing?

MindYourself
21st October 2008, 15:02
Revolution will be brought about by economic crisis, this has become evident in recent times. The crisis will be caused by a falling rate of profit, scarcity of rescources, and a crisis of credit.



Care to elaborate a bit?I posted that i questioned capitalism's ability to self destruct, and i perceive your post to hold an entirely different position, so if it's not too much trouble, can you, in a few words, depict how:
a) the profit rates drop, the increasing dependance on credit, affect the general ability of the capital to disorientate masses or keep them in the dark , when it so strongly controls political leadership and market functions (and consequently medias, education, weapon markets and so on).
b) how are these economical conditions inevitably bound to be fulfilled according to the Marxist theory.
I know the above require much time occupation and are complex matters, so thanks in advance for your time and your patience.

Valeofruin
22nd October 2008, 00:31
Care to elaborate a bit?I posted that i questioned capitalism's ability to self destruct, and i perceive your post to hold an entirely different position, so if it's not too much trouble, can you, in a few words, depict how:
a) the profit rates drop, the increasing dependance on credit, affect the general ability of the capital to disorientate masses or keep them in the dark , when it so strongly controls political leadership and market functions (and consequently medias, education, weapon markets and so on).
b) how are these economical conditions inevitably bound to be fulfilled according to the Marxist theory.
I know the above require much time occupation and are complex matters, so thanks in advance for your time and your patience.

Dont thank me, thankfully someones already done my job for me, thank him,

Just watch these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oXEgH4HzYk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7RjbEq_yxU&feature=related

And ask questions.

The guy does plenty of other videos, and really has been a time saver in the sense that he explains the basics in his videos, so noone has to repeat such things, Check it out.

Considering that Capitalist crisis tends to increase in severity, given the global nature of the bourgeois, and the rapid expansion of production, (ie. the bigger they are the harder they fall).

The position i hold is that we are facing an inevitable back-breaking crisis, with so many unemployed starving or impovershed, that socialism will simply become a life or death question. The defeat of capitalism will simply be necessary.