How can i defend communism? - defending communism from crazy

[commieboy]

ok....i was in class and some idiot kid asked me if he could draw an anarchy symbol on my arm. and im almost positive this kid has no idea what anarchism is. but anyway, i said, "How 'bout a hammer and sickle?" and my fatassed "child of the system" teacher walks up to me and says. "What? you're a communist?" and she said it like a bad thing and i tried to defend it. "Yeah i am" i said so her and "All knowing" self just kept repeating "Communism failed, look at the soviet union, Cuba," and when she said Cuba i snapped, its like a nerve because, i'm a suburban kid but i really think that revolutions and communism are better than opression and capitalism...although my parents drive SUVs and try and dress me in Abercrombie. but when she brings up tatamen square (Sorry if i spelt that wrong) where the protesters were ran over by tanks. i stood up and i said that commnism that helps the people and not the rich guys like at enron is a better government than capitalism.....but then some people made fun of me for like wearing some designer clothes and called me a poser. i want people to have money, i dont want people to be poor, i want them to have jobs. is this communism or just a dream of a perfect world? but whenever i get in an aguement with someone and communism...they always can beat me with more bad things comunists did than good....could you guys help me out here?

[synthesis]

Bring up the fact that the Tianenmen Square protesters were Maoists (communists). The truth always gets capitalist blood boiling.

they always can beat me with more bad things comunists did than good

The easiest way out of this is to simply memorize horrendous things done by U.S. foreign policy - in Chile, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba and beyond. This is a superb place to start, although the guy running the place has gone a little whacko over the last few months.

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...gyofTerror.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html)

Some good stuff to bring up:[list]
Pol Pot, one of the worst "communist" dictators, was funded by the U.S., the only "communist" ever to do so
The war on Vietnam wound up killing over 6,000,000 people in Indochina as a whole.
U.S. foreign policy-caused death counts (the numbers are foreign citizens):
Vietnam: 3,500,000
Cambodia: 2,000,000
Laos: 500,000
Guatemala: 200,000
Iraq: 2,000,000 (half are children under 5)
Korea: 2,000,000
Hiroshima/Nagasaki: 150,000
Dresden: 500,000
Philippines: 200,000
Afghanistan: 1,000,000
Indonesia: 1,000,000
East Timor: 200,000
Greece: 10,000
Hoping I didn't forget any major ones, the total comes out to over 13 million people. And this is just in the last fifty years! If you total all the black slaves and Native Americans, the total comes out to well over 100 million.
Pre-WWII U.S. interventions
For the United States to step forward [in WWII] as a defender of helpless countries matched its image in American high school history textbooks, but not its record in world affairs.

It had instigated a war with Mexico and taken half of that country. It had pretended to help Cuba win freedom from Spain, and then planted itself in Cuba with a military base, investments, and rights of intervention. It had seized Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, and fought a brutal war to subjugate the Filipinos.

It had “opened” Japan to its trade with gunboats and threats. It had declared an Open Door Policy in China as a means of assuring that the United States would have opportunities equal to other imperial powers in exploiting China. It had sent troops to Peking with other nations, to assert Western supremacy in China, and kept them there for over thirty years.

While demanding an Open Door in China, it had insisted (with the Monroe Doctrine and many military interventions) on a Closed Door in Latin America — that is, closed to everyone but the United States. It had engineered a revolution against Colombia and created the “independent” state of Panama in order to build and control the Canal.

It sent five thousand marines to Nicaragua in 1926 to counter a revolution, and kept a force there for seven years. It intervened in the Dominican Republic for the fourth time in 1916 and kept troops there for eight years. It intervened for the second time in Haiti in 1915 and kept troops there for nineteen years.

Between 1900 and 1933, the United States intervened in Cuba four times, in Nicaragua twice, in Panama six times, in Guatemala once, in Honduras seven times. By 1924 the finances of half of the twenty Latin American states were being directed to some extent by the United States. By 1935, over half of U.S. steel and cotton exports were being sold in Latin America.
Communism didn't fail - it was defeated. To make this point, you must have a stronger knowledge of capitalist foreign policy, but if you can build that up, it's worth it.[list]

I would recommend, though, that if you're going to present yourself as a proper socialist, you start dressing responsibly - and I don't mean non-lewdly. Try to wear socially responsible garb.

[synthesis]

By the way, the fourth item was created by Howard Zinn. I suggest you buy his book, A People's History Of The United States: 1492-Present along with Noam Chomsky's What Uncle Sam Really Wants and pretty much anything by William Blum you can get your hands on.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Liek the others said, arm yourself.... with knowledge.

[Invader Zim]

Tell them that capitalism fails all the time as well just bring up the technology bubble and how it burst. Bring up the starving children in indonesia, getting paid 1$ a day to produse a shoe for Nike which they promptly sell for 150$. Tell them that the price of water in sub-Saharan Africa costs more than petrol. Tell them that in Zimbabway the estimated death toll goes as far as 8,000,000 for the next dry season. Tell them that Hitler was a capitalist. Tell them that people in Nirobi live in shanty towns no larger than a garden shed and far worse conditions.

These you can all blame on capitalism.

[ComradeJunichi]

It takes time to study and understand, don't go out claiming your a communist when you dont' know how to defend your 'ideals'. Just study more, and choose your own path - by the way, study with an open mind not as a communist or you're not going anywhere.

[Goldfinger]

Man, are all teachers in teh US really that brainwashed by government propaganda?

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Apocalypse When on 5:18 pm on April 29, 2003
Man, are all teachers in teh US really that brainwashed by government propaganda?

Yes.

[mentalbunny]

This is a brilliant thread, Dyermaker, can you list all those books in the reading list in Literature for me? That'd be great.

Good lukc, commieboy, I'm in a similar position except here people aren't brainwashed by the US, it's the idea of freedom they don't seem to understand, they seem to think they are so much more important than anyone else in the world and they are happy to close their eyes and ignore what's going on in Sweatshops and oppresive regimes. There's nothing you can do to get it into their thick skulls, nothing goes in, if they don't want to see it, they can't see it. They don't think abuot what more animal was torutured when their mascara or aftershave was tested, they don't think about the arms manufacturers they are funsding with the money in their bank accounts, they don't think about the kids who make thier trainers.

This is nothing to them, as long as it's cheap and the bank has a high interest rates, as long as taxes are low and the world looks beautiful, it deosn't matter that it is rotten to the core.

[Dirty Commie]

Luckily, 99.9% of high schoolers don't understand the system and it's corruption, but have already been programmed. Re programming them is hard but possible. With a few exceptions, students can be taught to support Marxian ideologies. Most won't go communist, but will be wiling to be progressive.

[commieboy]

i dont want to sound rude, but i have read communist writings, numerous ones written by che, Marx, Engels, and Mao's little red book, and i've read a little over a dozen biographies on che, and Gurrillia warfare in Afghanistan, and Cuba.

And if i do bring up Vietnam, and all those others, all these people will think is that the US army killed the Communist scum. they're not people to them, they're a party. they compare them to nazis. so i dont know if i'm going to defend communism at school anymore, cause all i get is that bullshit they learn on the disney channel and in school textbooks.
and i do try and not dress too "cappie" i think you guys call it, but i honestly have a problem going to a second hand store and buying clothes. but i do have several Che shirts, so i hope that just might justifey it.

[chamo]

You have read alot of Marxist books, so I am sure you should be quite capable of defending communist theory, if a capitalist fellow-student could ever understand it...

You still have to keep up the struggle against the ignorant capitalists in your school, most in mine are blind to what Communism really is and what acts of mass genocide the USA has caused throughout its history. Thankfully only a small number, and a more open amount of people in my school know of my renegade leftist beliefs.

Just keep telling them of those American Terror bombings and amounts of deaths called, keep it simple for their own good, if you can manage it, get a whole class debate to spread the effects.;)

As for their stupidity regarding how you dress, jokes on them, as we do not live under communism (yet:)) it is impossible to get non-capitalist clothing, unless you buy trade union clothing or buy your stuff in Cuba. But cut down on the Nike and shit.

Draw hammers and sickles over all your books, raise your fist, spread the good word, and never give up the fight.

Good luck, comrade.

[Donut Master]

Dirty Commie, we shouldn't be programming or reprogramming anyone at all. What we need is to have issues presented fairly and balance the arguments for both sides. Students should decide their views on the world through a concious, educated choice. We shant indoctrinate towards either end of the political spectrum.

An excellent book to inform yourself of history from a revisionist prespective is "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn. It focuses on the social movements and the struggles of the downtrodden, quite a different read than a textbook you'd pick up in school.

[commie kg]

Quote: from Donut Master on 7:15 pm on April 29, 2003
Dirty Commie, we shouldn't be programming or reprogramming anyone at all. What we need is to have issues presented fairly and balance the arguments for both sides. Students should decide their views on the world through a concious, educated choice. We shant indoctrinate towards either end of the political spectrum.

I couldn't have said it better.

[hazard]

all my favourite teachers were either socialists or communists. my education shifted from a heavy science and mathematics base to a super heavy history and english base. you will find that mot science, math, shop and business teachers are capitalist puppets. most english, history and language, ie. arts and social science teachers, are socialist if not communist.

when one considers how much teachers get paid, you'd think they woulkd all be communists.

[HankMorgan]

A couple more to read:

"Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand (anything by Rand is good but start here)

"The Richest Man in Babylon" by George Clason

"The Road to Serfdom" by F.A. Hayek

"The Vision of the Annointed" by Thomas Sowell

"Free to Choose" by Milton and Rose Freidman

[redstar2000]

It's really hard for one kid, no matter how much s/he knows, to stand up against a whole classroom full of thick skulls and opinionated ignoramuses.

You can't very well carry a ton of books around with you and throw them at your critics (you'd need a truck!).

So, perhaps you could try a "passive-aggressive" strategy.

Dummy: You a commie?

You: Yes, that's true. <bored tone of voice>

Dummy: What about (insert Commie atrocity story here)?

You: It didn't actually happen like that. <sound bored with the subject>

Dummy: What did happen then?

You: give details of what really happened if you know them; otherwise find website that explains what really happened and pass it to him/her.

Most important: avoid lengthy, convoluted arguments about "why communism failed" or "why communism can't work". Those always turn into bullshit assertions about "human nature" that are scientifically unsupported if not utterly meaningless. If they say "communism failed", point out that the Wright Brothers' first flight did not immediately ruin the rail passenger business.

If they say it "can't work", tell them you want to give it a try anyway. It has to be better than the shit we have now.

Don't feel like every argument/discussion is crucial. Be easy-going and non-threatening; it might take 50 conversations before you awaken some real interest in the subject from one person. It's ok to nudge folks a little, but don't be a communist "preacher".

Being indifferent to fashion, I have no clothing advice to offer except wear whatever you feel comfortable in.

:cool:

PS: as to Hank's cappie reading list, Hayek and Friedman are certainly worth reading if you want to get a grasp of neo-conservative economic thought. Clason is someone I'm not familiar with. Sowell is just a hustler. And no one would read Rand unless they suffered from deeply rooted masochism...she has to be one of the worst writers ever.


(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:45 pm on April 30, 2003)

[synthesis]

And no one would read Rand unless they suffered from deeply rooted masochism...she has to be one of the worst writers ever.

I fully agree. Her literature makes Mein Kampf look as if it was written by Chaucer.

An excellent book to inform yourself of history from a revisionist prespective is "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn.

Check the third post, man :biggrin:

So, perhaps you could try a "passive-aggressive" strategy.

That may work... I always found total and complete arrogance to function much better around the nationalist simpletons I went to school with.

Of course, this might well require a bit of memorized knowledge from the books previously mentioned... but as I said, it's worth it.

they compare them to nazis.

Laugh in their faces.

i dont want to sound rude, but i have read communist writings, numerous ones written by che, Marx, Engels, and Mao's little red book, and i've read a little over a dozen biographies on che, and Gurrillia warfare in Afghanistan, and Cuba.

When dealing with the type of people it sounds like you're dealing with, theory is generally not all that important - it's only useful to demonstrate how Ceausescu, Pol Pot, and other totalitarians were not socialist.

Extremely in-depth knowledge of historical events is not going to help all that much, either. You won't bring anyone to our side by knowing what kind of ammo the Mujahadeen used.

What you need to keep in your brain is brief summaries of capitalist foreign policy.

Tell them about the U.S.-funded rape of nuns and murder of priests in Nicaragua. C.I.A. agents there would force children to watch as they castrated the father, cut the skin off his face and then put a grenade into his mouth and pulled the pin; they would gang-rape the mother, cut off her breasts, and keep them as souvenirs. Occasionally, they would reverse the situation upon the children and force the parents to watch.

Tell them about the practice of death by torture in Vietnam where people would be executed by having a six inch dowel shoved in their ears until it reached their brains and killed them.

Tell them about how the socialists in Afghanistan, pre-U.S.-funded overthrow, were totally dedicated to women's rights, and contrast it with the activity that went on under the American-funded Taliban.

Tell them about how babies shot in the head and chest with U.S.-funded weapons in Palestine are not considered civilian casualties. Print out and show them these (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/IsraeliTerrorismPhotos.html) pictures.

When their minds are too far gone, try reaching their hearts.

[HankMorgan]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 11:48 pm on April 30, 2003
And no one would read Rand unless they suffered from deeply rooted masochism...she has to be one of the worst writers ever.

I fully agree. Her literature makes Mein Kampf look as if it was written by Chaucer.


LOL It's a long read alright but worth the trip.

[VivoFidel]

I know maybe alot of people have heard this already but bring it up anyways...

Tell them about how America funded the Taliban and trained Osama Bin Laden with CIA training to destroy Iraq who if fact, America sold weapons to way back. At least those thick skulled cappie students can remeber back to 9-11.

My class room has 3 supporters of communism and they are some of the highest grade achievers in the grade (including me) so i dont have as big a problem.

[MarxIsGod]

VivoCastro's story is a perfect example of why capitalists can't understand Marxism. Simply put, understanding, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, etc. requires a certain intellect which not all people possess. I'm not saying there aren't intellectual capitalists (though looking at the U.S. federal govt right now I'd have to say they are few and far between) but you have to realize that there were Communists in the 1800s who didn't understand what Marx wrote and that was when the first bulk of communist literature was being written. So don't expect many people, especially teens, to be able to understand Marx and the theories of communism. Unfortunately, people look at the Soviet Union as a whole (instead of some of its leaders) as being one big failure. Certainly Lenin did a great job in maintaining the communist leadership. Lenin was a true supporter of communism and wanted nothing more than for it to be successful and help Russians. Stalin became too power-hungry to be a successful communist leader and I believe the death communist Russia began with him. Regardless, we (especially as high school students) can do nothing more than attempt to spread the ideals of communism and educate people, even if we do not succeed in convincing them to change their beliefs. As far as prejudicial comments about communism, try to refute them as best you can, but do not be concerned as many people have stereotyped communism as being totalitarian and they are ignorant folk who are likely to remain stupid and ignorant.

[Dirty Commie]

donut master, almost every single child is programmed to support the president(elected or not) and believe in dubya's plan for conquest. I think it is our duty as informed people to politicaly re-educate the brainwashed masses.

[weepingbuddha]

hey everybody--
this is a kickass thread. commieboy-i have similar problems at my school. i mean, its pretty bad. i stop "pledging my allegence" to the flag, and i get accused of being a terrorist simpathizer (sp probably). so thanks for bringing up the question, cause it appears the answers are good. i really dig redstar's post. its totally true! its important to learn that by "preaching, no one will want to listen to you--i've had to figure this out the hard way...

[HankMorgan]

One more:

"One Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich" by Solzhenitsen

[commieboy]

I just bought One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich..but i dont have too much time to read it

[dopediana]

i say the pledge of allegiance in spanish just for kicks.

and i nominate sean penn for the presidency every time my teacher says ronald reagan was a hollywood actor.

and i defend the guerrillas in colombia and make all the republican boys' dicks shrivel up.

[MarxIsGod]

NO FAITH IS BETTER THAN BLIND FAITH:

In my history class here in Jersey which in an area which is insanely democratic, almost everyone opposes (opposed) the war. However, almost every kid, if you ask why, will say "war is wrong". And every time someone says this, I get the feeling that its something they heard at the dinner table the night before and are just repeating it because they don't know anything about the war. The fact these kids are willing to blindly accept the opinion of their parents, or any adult for that matter, kind of makes it easier to understand why everyone in the midwest falls for Bush's propaganda.

[El Barbudo]

one day in life of ivan denisovitch is pretty good.

but you must also read archipel of goulag (sorry for the traduction... in french, its archipel of goulag...)

[MarxIsGod]

I know this started to become a literary thread, but for those who are just "budding communists" like myself, an excellent, entertaining book is Marx for Beginners by Rius. Rius is the nom d'plume (Pen name in French, I think) of some Mexican socialist whose name I don't have because I lent the book to a friend. It is a relatively short book (you can read it 2 hours or less) that outlines the life of Marx, his major works, and the origin of his theories. The book is also written in a style similar to a comic book such that the written material is sort of reinforced by pictures. Hardly a complete source of information on Marx, but more than enough to make the average high school student (ie Me) well-versed enough in Marx's ideas such that you can defend them from your classmates who have yet to become, how shall I put it, Enlightened.

:cheesy:

[Nic8]

Don't waste your time deffending the "communist" regimes in the Soviet Union, China, etc. Just explain that there has never been a communist or socialist regime. In less you are a Stalinist or Maoist, it is probably best to destingish yourself as very different then the Soviet, Chinese, etc., systems.

The disasters of the American Foreing policy does not meen that the Soviet and "communist" policy was fine. Brining up the foreing policy of the US in order to defend the foreign policy is nothing more then the effective use of rhetoric. You would not be deffending anything, you would just be setting up a smokescreen.

[mentalbunny]

If it's someone pretty stupid saying that communism failed, then say it was never communism, and then point out all the shit that capitalism has caused, a couple of facts and figueres, with sources, is useful for this. With more "intelligent" people you will probably have to spend longer explaing why Russia, etc, weren't communist, and what exactly communism is, which is the tricky bit.

[Drace]

Ask her what communism is and watch her give you the wrong definition.

[Bud Struggle]

I was just picking my nose and found some real good nose gold. Does that make me a Capitalist?
:(

[pusher robot]

they always can beat me with more bad things comunists did than good....could you guys help me out here?

Definitely you want to wait around five years before responding. That's always key.

[Killfacer]

dont wish to kill the vibe but why has this been shoved in to OI?

Also i dont see why the fact that America has funded bad things, that them doing these things justifies you in some way. Thats just moronic one upmanship:
"Communists killed lots of people" - "yeah well capitalists fund terrorism". Pathetic.

The only way you can cover yourself in that situation is by saying the China/The soviet union/north korea/cuba are/were not actually communist. Which clearly isnt true but heh.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Stay calm and address their points.

Let them get flustered. Call you names. Beat their arguments, then call them names. That's what I did, and I always felt proud. Like I won a little battle.

Or at least, that's what I thought during detention.

[Killfacer]

oooh. Pazzang. You commies really teachin those kids a lesson.

Statements like:
"Stay calm, wait until they get flustered" - Yeah right, nice one. Sure taught capitalism a lesson with that one.
"All the communists in my class are high acheivers" - Ok. Lets make it seem like we belong to an elitist cult of hyper intelligent twats so far up their own arse they are covered with their own excrement.
"Ask them for a definition of communism and watch as they hilariously get it wrong" - Yay, we can defeat the capitalist with them get some minor technicality wrong when they describe communism. Woo.

Freaks.

[apathy maybe]

Definitely you want to wait around five years before responding. That's always key.

Some people just don't seem to notice the fact that there are dates on each post, and if they do they don't seem to think that replying to such old threads might be a bit silly.

Personally, I think capitalists are silly :lol:.

[rocker935]

You need to be able to separate your beliefs from the beliefs of other influential communists. I am a communist and have fairly socially libertarian beliefs. So I always have to explain to people that I am against assholes like Stalin and Castro. They did not help the proletariat. The proletariat deserve rights, but no where in the communist manifesto does Marx advocate totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

[Bud Struggle]

Stay calm and address their points.

Let them get flustered. Call you names. Beat their arguments, then call them names. That's what I did, and I always felt proud. Like I won a little battle.

Or at least, that's what I thought during detention.

Hell, that's what I do here to the Commies on RevLeft! :lol:

And of course, I'm in OI. :(

[Jazzratt]

Closing for necro.