The Weathermen

[Magdalen]

Anyone fancy explaining a bit about this 1960s radical organisation? I'm sure we've all heard Sarah Palin's rather bizarre criticism of Barack Obama for his very tenuous links to ex-weatherman Bill Ayers.

[Trystan]

Middle-class revolutionary romanticism. It was really a more benign version of Germany's Red Army Faction.

[Yehuda Stern]

Something like what Trystan wrote. The Weatherman were middle class people who were disillusioned with the protest movement of the 1960s, but instead of evolving towards Marxism, adopted personal terrorism. They were pretty brave, and I'm pretty sure that no one besides members of the group was killed in their actions. Considering that they were acting against a government which murdered countless Vietnamese people, it's the height of hypocrisy for people like McCain, Obama and Palin to attack them for terrorism.

I certainly don't agree with most of their tactics or politics, but this personal attack on a man who is not involved in politics anymore is just disgusting.

[Valeofruin]

And the Marxist-Leninist of the bunch says:

They were heroes of the time, who attempted to spawn a militant vanguard, by bombing government buildings.

All the bombings done by the weathermen were phoned in prior to detonation, as to allow for a safe evacuation of the site, they werent terrorists.

[The Intransigent Faction]

First off, as the OP said, they were tenuous links indeed. At any rate:


And the Marxist-Leninist of the bunch says:

They were heroes of the time, who attempted to spawn a militant vanguard, by bombing government buildings.

All the bombings done by the weathermen were phoned in prior to detonation, as to allow for a safe evacuation of the site, they weren't terrorists.

Amen.
Not much more can be said..I agree with Yehuda Stern entirely that such criticism is hypocritical coming from people like McCain/Palin, and Obama although I was unaware of his exact statement about the alleged links.

One would be more accurate calling the U.S. government a terrorist organization that was storming through and killing people in Vietnam. Some may criticize their methods, but in all honesty, their actions were warranted. For all the protesting going on, it takes more to stop a bourgeois government from messing with revolutionary forces in a distant country, as any revolutionary should know, than simply carrying signs around and singing "Give peace a chance!"

I can see how they may be criticized for adventurism...Well, call it naive hope if you want, but I believe that they sincerely felt strongly about the atrocities such as the My Lai massacre that were occurring in Vietnam.

For those of us who haven't been mentally absorbed into the labour aristocracy of the west, it's hard not to be disturbed by the atrocities that the government was committing, and to believe that only violent revolution would be an effective solution.

[Bilan]

The Weathermen can be summed up in the slogan:
"Bring the war home"

[Hiero]

The Weathermen can be summed up in the slogan:
"Bring the war home"
Nice and simple.

That was their point, to make the US government fearfull that their actions overseas would have consqeunces at home. They didn't the US government to have that feeling of safety abroad and at home. The Weathermen are a perfect example of the correct application of militancy at the imperialist centre.

It wasn't adventurism or "revolutionary romanticism", it had a speciific purpose to harm US morale in coordination with the success of the Vietnamese liberation untill US defeat. Basically they hit the imperialist where the Vietnamese couldn't. If the US conducted an atrocity against the Vietnamese people, the Weatherman would overshadow their "victory" by blowing something up.

It is actually the opposite of adventurism, it is pragmatic Marxism. It realised the current revolution was happening in Vietnam, not the U$A. So it adapted it's tactics and politics to aid the revolution abroad.

It is actually adventurist and romantic revolutionary to claim to be working for a revolutionary proleteriat that does not exist yet. It was many other groups were doing in the US and other western nations.

[Madvillainy]

Fred Hampton on the Weathermen:

"The weathermen should have spend their time organising the white working and lumpen class instead of prematurely engaging in combat with trigger happy pigs."

That basically sums them up, they didn't achieve fuck all, their tactics were never going to get them anywhere. They were a perfect example of why individual terrorism does not work.

[Vanguard1917]

Yeah, they had no real interest in winning over the working class to their politics, and so resorted to throwing terror-tantrums.

[JimmyJazz]

There is a good documentary on them called The Weather Underground, check it out.

Also check out Terrorism (http://www.marxists.de/theory/whatis/terror2.htm) by Leon Trotsky.

[Valeofruin]

Fred Hampton on the Weathermen:

"The weathermen should have spend their time organising the white working and lumpen class instead of prematurely engaging in combat with trigger happy pigs."

That basically sums them up, they didn't achieve fuck all, their tactics were never going to get them anywhere. They were a perfect example of why individual terrorism does not work.
Organizing the LUMPEN class? please tell me this is a joke?

[Hiero]

Fred Hampton on the Weathermen:

"The weathermen should have spend their time organising the white working and lumpen class instead of prematurely engaging in combat with trigger happy pigs."

That basically sums them up, they didn't achieve fuck all, their tactics were never going to get them anywhere. They were a perfect example of why individual terrorism does not work.
I think that is in response to the days of rage. The Weatherman campaign after the days of rage was different, and I think Hampton was dead by then.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Organizing the LUMPEN class? please tell me this is a joke?

The Black Panther Party believed the Lumpen could be organized as a revolutionary force and to a certain extent, were able to do that.

[Yehuda Stern]

The Black Panther Party believed the Lumpen could be organized as a revolutionary force and to a certain extent, were able to do that.

The BPP tried to organize the lumpens, yes, but for that reason exactly their organization fell apart. Only the working class can be a real revolutionary force - other classes can only be revolutionary if they submit to its leadership.

[Annie K.]

A revolution based on the submission of the revolutionnaries ? How curious.

Concerning the disintegration of the party, I don't see how it is related to its orientation towards the lumpen. I don't know every detail of its history, but i thought that it fell apart the same way than others leftists organizations after 1970 (and the SDS is an example) : dissensions then separation between radicals and legalists.
So... Can you be more precise ?

[Il-Peres]

It's true that the student and hippie movement of the US in the 60s were a piece of reactionary shit: most of the same people voted for Reagan in the 80s. After all, all that those movements brought to society was a fashion revolution, so it's not surprising that a faction of radicals were very upset. The problem with the Weathermen was that they had no efficient strategies; the fact that they blew it all off in the annual conference was a terrible mistake which made them look like a bunch of cowboys. Being middle-class students who studied at University they should have been more cautious and more technical. Blowing bombs in stadiums and in public places were ridiculous acts of terror and cowardice but again I don't blame them for their frustration. Still they should have been wiser.

Nevertheless the conclusion remains just one: that they were a very big failure.

[jake williams]

The BPP tried to organize the lumpens, yes, but for that reason exactly their organization fell apart. Only the working class can be a real revolutionary force - other classes can only be revolutionary if they submit to its leadership.
This is what is wrong with Marxists. Fuck you.

The BPP is the most admirable organization in American political history. Its failure has complex causes, but I think it's basically the war fought against them and black people by the U.S. government, on several fronts. It also has to do with the general decline in the "left" in the United States during the 70s, but that process is way more complex and too difficult to get into. It's completely obscene to talk about the problem being the "lumpens" though.

[Comrade B]

The Weathermen also went to Cuba to help with the sugarcane harvest.

To those who say that this was pointless because such small groups cannot change anything, consider that you can't really start a group like this large. It isn't a political party that decided to wage war, it was a group of people who decided to do something in hopes of encouraging others, unfortunately, it did not bring about a revolutionary movement, but we should not damn an attempt to organize the people just because it didn't succeed. They had good intentions, but lacked the power, that doesn't make their movement a negative thing.

[Yehuda Stern]

A revolution based on the submission of the revolutionnaries ? How curious.

I never said anything that even resembles that.


Concerning the disintegration of the party, I don't see how it is related to its orientation towards the lumpen. I don't know every detail of its history, but i thought that it fell apart the same way than others leftists organizations after 1970 (and the SDS is an example) : dissensions then separation between radicals and legalists.
So... Can you be more precise ?

The lumpen proletariat is not unimportant or inferior, as some very crude 'leftists' claim, but it is a pretty unstable class which cannot be counted on to hold a party together. I believe that this what caused the disintegration of the BPP. Remember that other groups that were based on the working class, even if they were centrist or reformist, survived repression a lot better than the BPP.


This is what is wrong with Marxists. Fuck you.

No, this is what's wrong about snotty middle class leftists - you think that you have the right to say "fuck you" and repeat your bullshit to everyone who disagrees with you. Some of us want to actually analyzes the causes for the BPP's failure, not just put it on a pedestal.

[Annie K.]

If the submission of the lumpen to the leadership of the proletariat does not mean the submission of a group of revolutionnaries, what does that mean ? In fact, concretely, how can this submission be organized ?


Remember that other groups that were based on the working class, even if they were centrist or reformist, survived repression a lot better than the BPP.I don't remember that, but that's cause i'm ignorant of most of the revolutionnary organizations in the united states.
But that's not a surprise that centrist or reformists organizations survived repression better, as the repression against them was far less violent.
The reason of the difficulties of lumpen organizations against state repression is not that their unstability makes resistance less efficient, but simply because precarious situations makes direct confrontation seems a better strategy than waiting another century for a socialist majority.

[Annie K.]

Nevertheless the conclusion remains just one: that they were a very big failure.What's so big about their failure ? No doubt they didn't brought the war home, but all the others attempts to engage the usa on the path towards socialism or communism failed as well. Why would the failure of the weather underground be bigger ?

[Red October]

The Weather Underground is a classic case of why individual terrorism doesn't work. The student anti-war movement was already isolated from the working class in America, and The Weathermen took it further. Individual terrorism like theirs is completely useless without a mass popular base to support it. Otherwise it just alienates people, which is exactly what happened. Of course it's easy to understand why they would choose to do that, but the strategy was still a horrible failure. The BPP was able to accomplish infinitely more without doing that kind of shit. Terrorism is never a substitute for organizing.

[jake williams]

No, this is what's wrong about snotty middle class leftists - you think that you have the right to say "fuck you" and repeat your bullshit to everyone who disagrees with you. Some of us want to actually analyzes the causes for the BPP's failure, not just put it on a pedestal.
The whole "I'm more revolutionary than you because I'm poor" bit is immature and a waste of time, but just for info for the last 9ish years myself and my single mother have been hovering around $16000 a year. When I was 7 she ended up with a sociology degree she couldn't do anything with and she ended up working retail until a few months ago. Right now she's working part time for minimum wage and we're both trying to find extra income and not having an easy time of it for all sorts of reasons.

But anyway, it really irritates me when folks who don't live in the real world concoct or acquire this image of the 19th century urban industrial proletarian, Rosie the Riveter fighting for socialism instead of imperialism. They do this, totally ignoring the reality and complexity of working class struggle in the world right now, and then they accuse others of "naive romanticism". You've got it backwards. Working class struggle isn't a clean, deterministic fluid dynamics of power. It's simultaneously a very social and a very personal fight by people for theirs and others' rights to freedom and decency. This is a complex process, and it just doesn't work if you make it all about prophecized heroes who will come in and run the show.

[Sasha]

there are several good books about the wheaterunderground and i do encourage ppl to read them, david gilbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gilbert) wrote several realy readable articels (http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/profiles/gilbert.html) about his former organisation.
the basic information is found in a decent articel on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)

since i as an autonomist do not reject armed activism/urban guerilla groups per se (although i'm very critical about groups like the RAF, AD, CCC and RZ, i do support most of the actions by groups like Direct Action/canada, the original RARA and the angrybrigade) my main critism about the weatherunderground would be that they (like most white americans) did not see their own privellegd situation.
the only wheaterman that got severly punnished, killed or cast from socity where those who put their money where there mouths where considering the nececity to fight white supremacy and joinded the BLA.

The rise and (murderous) suppresing of the Black panters was by the the way one of the key catalists in the formation of the weatherunderground.

[Yehuda Stern]

The whole "I'm more revolutionary than you because I'm poor" bit is immature and a waste of time

I never claimed that I'm poorer than you, nor that it makes me better than you politically or otherwise. I was pointing out that you were being elitist and condescending in your attitude and that this is very characteristic of leftists who don't really want to understand the mistakes that groups like the BPP made so as to not repeat, but who just want to put these groups on a pedestal as a way of looking super-revolutionary.

I have no doubt that the BPP was important, and that all struggles of the oppressed, workers or not, are important. I also don't think that workers today are the same as workers in the 19th century. I do think, though, that history shows that workers are still the only class that can really overthrow capitalism and lead to a socialist society. That's not dogmatism - that's just a century and half's worth of lessons from abortive revolutions.


If the submission of the lumpen to the leadership of the proletariat does not mean the submission of a group of revolutionnaries, what does that mean ? In fact, concretely, how can this submission be organized ?

Concretely, it means that in a case where there is a conflict between the class interests of the other classes and that of the workers, then non-workers who want to be part of the revolutionary organization must support the interests of the workers. (if that's not enough, I'll try to think up concrete examples)

[Il-Peres]

What's so big about their failure ? No doubt they didn't brought the war home, but all the others attempts to engage the usa on the path towards socialism or communism failed as well. Why would the failure of the weather underground be bigger ?Nothing is big about them because a society isn't ''engaged'' into socialism by a group of individuals not even by powerful organizations. Some make emphasis on the Vietnam War as one of their instigators and it's true, but the historical connection with the Panters is very weak. One factor which is usually downplayed is the decapitated state of the youth movements. why do you think Nixon said 'Protests by students won't effect me one single bit' because for nearly ten years not even thousands of dead US soldiers did convince the US government to withdraw so why should a bunch of pacifist mobs be of a problem? In fact they weren't. Youth movements had lost all contact with the working class because they adopted an elitist lifestyle which had inhibitions of renewed consumer cultures. These consumer cultures are now major trends in the contemporay commodity markets including chemical drugs, pornography, fashion, music, art, etc...

Some of you have condemned them for being middle-class and that they didn't have connections with the working class. It is true that they operated in a context were the class struggle was very weak, but even if they were working-class youth they wouldn't even had any connections to a working class struggle.

[Il-Peres]

I'll try to put it differently:

they were a product of their time, but they were also a product of a youth movement. If they were a product of a youth movement, one must be aware for what it stood for. It is thus inevitable that if American youth movements were not basically socialist orientated, the Weathermen inherited reactionary genes, and reacted against the American working-classes.

[jake williams]

I never claimed that I'm poorer than you, nor that it makes me better than you politically or otherwise. I was pointing out that you were being elitist and condescending in your attitude and that this is very characteristic of leftists who don't really want to understand the mistakes that groups like the BPP made so as to not repeat, but who just want to put these groups on a pedestal as a way of looking super-revolutionary.

I have no doubt that the BPP was important, and that all struggles of the oppressed, workers or not, are important. I also don't think that workers today are the same as workers in the 19th century. I do think, though, that history shows that workers are still the only class that can really overthrow capitalism and lead to a socialist society. That's not dogmatism - that's just a century and half's worth of lessons from abortive revolutions.



Concretely, it means that in a case where there is a conflict between the class interests of the other classes and that of the workers, then non-workers who want to be part of the revolutionary organization must support the interests of the workers. (if that's not enough, I'll try to think up concrete examples)
Well I want to say, what you're suggesting is a lot more fair and sensible than I initially guessed, and I wasn't fair in responding, so I want to talk to you about this and I don't have the energy right now, so I will respond to this later. If I forget remind be, because it's important.

[Yehuda Stern]

No problem. I know what it's like to be passionate about your politics to the point of somewhat bursting out at the wrong person. PM me and we shall discuss.