Origin of withering away

[Dolerite]

Hey, is there any text where Engels specifically mentions the words 'withering away'? I tried searching most of the MIA but came up with nothing. Cheers.

[Bilan]

Yes.
I found Lenin's State and revolution (Where he quotes Engels extensively on this) was good: The Economic Basis of the Whithering Away of the State (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm)

[Dolerite]

Despite Lenin using the term a lot, I can't see anywhere that he quotes Engels directly (or at least references "withering away"), I might be able to use State and Revolution though, I am just doing some referencing for a history essay.

[Tower of Bebel]

It depends on the translation of his works!

According to Lenin:

Herr Eugen Dühring's Revolution in Science (Anti-Dühring):
"The first act by which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — is also its last independent act as a state. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies down of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The state is not 'abolished'. It withers away. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase 'a free people's state', both as to its justifiable use for a long time from an agitational point of view, and as to its ultimate scientific insufficiency; and also of the so-called anarchists' demand that the state be abolished overnight."

According to MIA:

(the same book):
The first act by virtue of which the state really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a state. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The state is not "abolished". It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase "a free people's state", both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific insufficiency [117]; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the state out of hand.

[Dolerite]

Thanks very much, sorted out my confusion.

[mikelepore]

"Anti-Duhring" didn't become well-known, but the reason this quoted passage became so well publicized is that Engels selected a section of "Anti-Duhring" to reprint in the form of a pamphlet, entitled "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific", which became very popular, and this quoted passage was included in the reprinted section.

[Black Sheep]

I cannot understand the how and the whys of this withering away.It seems a deliberately false prophecy to me.

[Bilan]

I get why they think it after reading about it a bit more. I just think they're wrong. :)

[Yehuda Stern]

Marxism holds that the state arose along with class society, because its role was to monitor (for lack of a better word) the conflicts between the classes in a way that favors the ruling class. When there will be no classes, there will be no need for a state and therefore the state will begin withering away (socialism) until we reach a stage where there are no more states (communism). That's the rationalization in a nutshell.

[Valeofruin]

yep, everyone beat me to it, Lenins The State and Revolution is by far the best rescource when it comes to researching Marxist theory on the State.

[mikelepore]

I think Marx and Engels were only internalizing and reexpressing an idea that was already spreading around the world in the 1800s. For example, the opening paragraph of Civil Disobedience by Thoreau (1849) says: "I heartily accept the motto, 'That government is best which governs least'; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe -- 'That government is best which governs not at all'; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient."

[Tower of Bebel]

I cannot understand the how and the whys of this withering away.It seems a deliberately false prophecy to me.
But do you know where this "prophecy" is based upon?

[Bilan]

Marxism holds that the state arose along with class society, because its role was to monitor (for lack of a better word) the conflicts between the classes in a way that favors the ruling class. When there will be no classes, there will be no need for a state and therefore the state will begin withering away (socialism) until we reach a stage where there are no more states (communism). That's the rationalization in a nutshell.

That rationalization negates internal and external structures, or, simply, how the state perpetuates class society (Though class gave rise to the state). The two are self perpetuating. The state arose out of class; the state perpetuates class-class perpetuates the state; you can not abolish one without the other.

[Hiero]

you can not abolish one without the other.

Well this what Marxist-Leninist are saying. You can't abolish class society over night, so that means you can't abolisih the state overnight.

[Trystan]

Well this what Marxist-Leninist are saying. You can't abolish class society over night, so that means you can't abolisih the state overnight.

Who's saying that you can?