Current Situation should make it easier to get support

[Followthewhiterabbit]

I wanted to discuss something after watching a documentary on the RAF (baader meinhof).

The RAF was able to garner support within a thriving capitalist economy. In the current economic situation wouldn't it be easier to receive support and if you agree should we not now start to try to organize movements like never before.

[Yehuda Stern]

First of all, I don't believe the RAF had more than symbolic support. As far as I know - and anyone with more knowledge on the Faction is welcome to enlighten me - it was always a very small underground group.

Personally, I don't think radicalization will come during the crisis - on the contrary, demoralization is a more reasonable perspective. The radicalization, I think, will come at the end of the crisis, when workers regain some confidence. Then again, there's no absolute rule. Either way, we must try to organize the revolutionary party at all times, not just at favorable times.

[Sprinkles]

First of all, I don't believe the RAF had more than symbolic support. As far as I know - and anyone with more knowledge on the Faction is welcome to enlighten me - it was always a very small underground group.


True, the Rote Armee Fraktion never had much in popular support.
The only real support they received that I know of was monetary support from the Stasi.



Personally, I don't think radicalization will come during the crisis - on the contrary, demoralization is a more reasonable perspective. The radicalization, I think, will come at the end of the crisis, when workers regain some confidence. Then again, there's no absolute rule. Either way, we must try to organize the revolutionary party at all times, not just at favorable times.

I agree, even if the crisis results in a significant increase in either poverty or unemployment, this doesn't ensure a rise of class consciousness or pushes the working class to go beyond defensive struggles. The most important thing is that we spread our views to give a revolutionary analysis and communist critique on the current crisis of capital. And I sincerely doubt doing this with force has ever helped with this goal.

[Followthewhiterabbit]

"And I sincerely doubt doing this with force has ever helped with this goal."

This is true, sorry I should have been clearer, I wasn't suggesting an armed struggle like the RAF.

You are completely correct.

[chebol]

The current crisis should certainly provide an opportunity to convince people of the need for systemic change, and the innate problems of Capitalism.

There are some key challenges, however, some of which are:


communicating and convincing people with clarity,
making them active in arguing, fighting, and organising for an alternative,
overcoming the demoralisation of a significant sector of the militant working class (or those that could easily be radicalised) which will inevitably result from an economic downturn and the subsequent attacks on standards of living and wages by connecting the spotfire fightbacks into a coordinated struggle for workers' rights,
keeping one step ahead of the far right, who will feed of the crisis too, by playing on people's fears and prejudices.

As for Baader-Meinhof - best keep that to your library.

[Followthewhiterabbit]

keeping one step ahead of the far right, who will feed of the crisis too, by playing on people's fears and prejudices.

Yes, I was disgusted to learn that the BNP was on its way to winning seats down south. I think that they are doing exactly as you say. It seems like they will take any problem, and instead of looking for the solution they blame it on immigrants.

[Enragé]

First of all, I don't believe the RAF had more than symbolic support. As far as I know - and anyone with more knowledge on the Faction is welcome to enlighten me - it was always a very small underground group.

Personally, I don't think radicalization will come during the crisis - on the contrary, demoralization is a more reasonable perspective. The radicalization, I think, will come at the end of the crisis, when workers regain some confidence. Then again, there's no absolute rule. Either way, we must try to organize the revolutionary party at all times, not just at favorable times.

I disagree. Yesterday we had a pretty radical meeting on the credit crisis, with lots of marx thrown into it ofcourse (pretty hardcore stuff), and to my estimate at least 60-70 people showed up. We made a lot of contacts, sold lots of newspapers and some books. Also, this wasn't the only meeting in the country ofcourse, and there'll be many more to come. Aside from that, the mobilisation for NATO's birthday party in april is beginning to come into reality, with well attented international congress and a big meeting planned novembers first, with an entire day of talking about tactics and the like on the 2nd.

Good to keep in mind as well is that neoliberalism has pretty much been discredited, and as around the world governments pump billions into the banking system, people are led to ask themselves "Where was that money when we needed it for education, healthcare, public transportation? What about all the cutbacks in social security?". It is no exaggeration to say that a paradigm shift has occurred. This is reflected in the media as well, and a journalist from a leading newspaper is going to do a story about us (and our reaction on the crisis).

In short, lots off opportunities and good reactions from the people around us - it looks like we're at the start of building a movement, and most definitely strengthening the organisation.

[Yehuda Stern]

Am I going to have to be the one to point out that 60-70 is the size of a pretty normal radical left meeting in our days, and below? Especially if it is only the "pretty radical" left.

[Sprinkles]

This is true, sorry I should have been clearer, I wasn't suggesting an armed struggle like the RAF.


No problem at all. It's even fairly easy to get the impression the RAF was popular at the time.

There were widespread concerns about legitimate grievances in post-war Germany concerning state and police brutality as well as the lack of de-nazification in the Bundesrepublik. And since the RAF shared these concerns with the German student movement as well as the general public, it's easy to conclude they would subsequently support the RAF.

The RAF also had a fairly cool revolutionary terrorist chic about them which most movies take advantage of.



You are completely correct.Not always though. :D



It is no exaggeration to say that a paradigm shift has occurred. This is reflected in the media as well, and a journalist from a leading newspaper is going to do a story about us (and our reaction on the crisis).


I'm not so sure about this. As far as I know the media has been spinning the financial crisis as the fault of specific individuals like bankers being to greedy or choosing the wrong investments. As well as portraying the recession as being caused by the consumers' loss of faith in the economy and subsequently spending less, which ends up with less money being circulated. And I've only seen one article about the local Stalinist party which ended with the journalists openly mocking them.

As far as more people being interested and showing up at meetings, it's possible but I personally think it's a bit early to say. For example; the anti-globalization movement grew really rapidly at the time but lost most of it's steam later on. So we'll see.

[Enragé]

Am I going to have to be the one to point out that 60-70 is the size of a pretty normal radical left meeting in our days, and below?


good for you, it isn't over here. The point isnt in the actual size of the meeting, the point lies in the increase in size, contacts, good responses compared to before the crisis, leading me to conclude that there is radicalisation and growth of class consciousness going on, and that there is potential for building the radical left in these times.


As far as I know the media has been spinning the financial crisis as the fault of specific individuals like bankers being to greedy or choosing the wrong investments. As well as portraying the recession as being caused by the consumers' loss of faith in the economy and subsequently spending less, which ends up with less money being circulated.

ofcourse they're not questioning the system, what i meant was is that the paradigm of no state intervention has gone out the window and billions upon billions are thrown into the economy, now that the ruling class needs it... this after decades of cutbacks and claiming there wasn't enough money for education, healthcare, public transportation etc.


And I've only seen one article about the local Stalinist party which ended with the journalists openly mocking them.

Thankfully we're not stalinist then ^^

Aside from that, by no means did i attempt to paint anything of a global picture with my post, the only point i was making is that the crisis in and of itself is a basis for growth in class consciousness, radicalisation and that where i am this is translating itself into concrete results.

Ofcourse, i agree with the points chebol made, especially in referring to the dangers of demoralisaion.

[Yehuda Stern]

good for you, it isn't over here. The point isnt in the actual size of the meeting, the point lies in the increase in size, contacts, good responses compared to before the crisis, leading me to conclude that there is radicalisation and growth of class consciousness going on, and that there is potential for building the radical left in these times.

I'm not meaning to belittle or discount attempts to attract people to left ideas. A meeting that attracts even a few people truly interested in Marxism is a good thing, even if not much comes of it. However, as important as such actions are, they hardly point to any meaningful and broad radicalization. There may very well be such a broad radicalization where you live, but if there is, a meeting of 60-70 people is hardly indicative of it.

[Enragé]

I'm not meaning to belittle or discount attempts to attract people to left ideas. A meeting that attracts even a few people truly interested in Marxism is a good thing, even if not much comes of it. However, as important as such actions are, they hardly point to any meaningful and broad radicalization. There may very well be such a broad radicalization where you live, but if there is, a meeting of 60-70 people is hardly indicative of it.

where did i speak of broad radicalisation? Also, it's more than one meeting, and what i say i based on more than just that one meeting. All I'm saying is, that even in the last 4 weeks, an extremely short time, there has been a clear difference in responses from people, and chances to build the organisation and something broader. Now, take into account that this crisis will most likely be around for a few years to come, then yes, the current economic situation gives the radical left a chance, one we should take.

again
the only point i was making is that the crisis in and of itself is a basis for growth in class consciousness, radicalisation and that where i am this is translating itself into concrete results.. though small these results may right now be, they are indicative of how 4 weeks of crisis can impact the minds of people - not to mention that the crisis is yet to hit the real economy.

[Yehuda Stern]

And all I'm saying is, OK, you maybe right that there's radicalization now. But it's way too simplistic to conclude that economic crisis necessarily leads to radicalization. In fact, more often than not, it leads to demoralization, and the radicalization only comes at the end of the crisis.

[Enragé]

And all I'm saying is, OK, you maybe right that there's radicalization now. But it's way too simplistic to conclude that economic crisis necessarily leads to radicalization.

Ofcourse, but it does support everything we've been saying all along. Even the word capitalism was barely used 2 months ago, now we're seeing it on the front pages of the mainstream newspapers. Not to mention, the whole idea of a capitalism without crises has been thoroughly discredited, as is the neoliberal dogma of privatisation, regulation and cutbacks on social security (since there "wasnt enough money"... now we see there's tons of it when the ruling class is in trouble).

[Yehuda Stern]

I have to stop you right there - practically everybody, including the IST, had at least at some point a theory of capitalism without crises. USec had their neat theory that crises occur every set number of decades (about 50 years, give or take), and the IST had the "permanent arms economy," which theorized that capitalism could avoid crises through production of arms.

In a more general sense, it does support what, I suppose, "we" have been saying - that capitalism is not eternally stable. But then, people don't learn from experience in such a linear way. The absence of jobs and the worsening of the condition of the workers is much more a consciousness factor than the fact that some Marxists predicted the crisis, just like the failure of a revolution is a much stronger negative effect on consciousness than the correctness of a Marxist's prediction of that failure is a positive effect (Trotsky used this example when he explained why the Left Opposition gained almost no adherents from its prediction of the failure of the Chinese revolution).

Probably only in a few months or years the understandings that workers have come to in these months will translate into radicalization. Then again, it's hardly an exact science.

[Enragé]

I have to stop you right there - practically everybody, including the IST, had at least at some point a theory of capitalism without crises. USec had their neat theory that crises occur every set number of decades (about 50 years, give or take), and the IST had the "permanent arms economy," which theorized that capitalism could avoid crises through production of arms.

the IST never had that theory, there were always debates about it and it never became central like for instance the theory of state capitalism.


The absence of jobs and the worsening of the condition of the workers is much more a consciousness factor than the fact that some Marxists predicted the crisis, just like the failure of a revolution is a much stronger negative effect on consciousness than the correctness of a Marxist's prediction of that failure is a positive effect (Trotsky used this example when he explained why the Left Opposition gained almost no adherents from its prediction of the failure of the Chinese revolution).

i agree, but this crisis is also something undermining the whole ruling class ideology, and while bourgeois economics struggle to make sense of it all, we can give concrete explanations of the crisis and the way how to deal with it.


Probably only in a few months or years the understandings that workers have come to in these months will translate into radicalization. Then again, it's hardly an exact science.


ofcourse.

[Yehuda Stern]

the IST never had that theory, there were always debates about it and it never became central like for instance the theory of state capitalism.Whenever I read about the IST, either from an outside source or something by the group itself, the PAE was mentioned alongside state capitalism and deflected permanent revolution as central to IS theory. The only ones who I know challenged it are Harris and Kidron, both of whom broke with the IST in their later years.


i agree, but this crisis is also something undermining the whole ruling class ideology, and while bourgeois economics struggle to make sense of it all, we can give concrete explanations of the crisis and the way how to deal with it.

Fair enough.

[Enragé]

Whenever I read about the IST, either from an outside source or something by the group itself, the PAE was mentioned alongside state capitalism and deflected permanent revolution as central to IS theory. The only ones who I know challenged it are Harris and Kidron, both of whom broke with the IST in their later years.

Hmm well from what i know of from being a member of one of the IST's orgs, I've only ever heard a comrade once refer to the PAE, and even then saying he saw some flaws in it. But yea, its not like i read alot about it.

[peaccenicked]

I have just been reading this article http://rinf.com/alt-news/contributions/system-failure-and-the-need-for-revolution/4731/

It is very interesting and raises most of the issues raised in this thread.