Anticommunism and renazification

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-PPPJqJj8g

This video accurately displays the connection between neoliberal capitalist anticommunist actions and the restauration of fascism and nazism.
The anticommunist actions taken by several eastern European governments are not "merely" anticommunism, but an attempt of renazification.
It is our duty, as left-wingers, to protect humanity from nazi threat.

In the future it will be them in power or us!

[Holden Caulfield]

i was gonna move this to chit chat (your a Stalinist right?) but i think ill leave it be for some reason,

the Berlin Wall needed destroyed, it was a symbol of opression, remember that line in the (billy bragg version) internationale "let no one build walls to divide us"?

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

i was gonna move this to chit chat (your a Stalinist right?) but i think ill leave it be for some reason,

the Berlin Wall needed destroyed, it was a symbol of opression, remember that line in the (billy bragg version) internationale "let no one build walls to divide us"?
I'm a Stalinist, yes, although I don't know why that would be important now.

I'm pretty sure "between us" means between those who fight for Communism and justice. Western Germany spreaded capitalist thought, and the Western-Germand neonazis spreaded fascism in the East.
They had to be stopped.
It was a Cold War, remember?
The West and the East didn't really like eachother.

[Sasha]

anti-facsim and anti-authoritarianism should I.M.O. always go hand in hand.
maybe this is a good topic to discuss this:
In the netherlands the autonomus anti-fascist movement (AFA etc) has always been heavely influenced by the anarchist squating movement. Recently we see an increase of intrest by leninist/bolschvic groups like the Comunist Youth (CJB) in the cause.
Although i apreciete this young enthousiastic activist i im very critical of their organisation.
Some people, espacely those with a background in/under influence from the AFA groups in eastern-europe even favor booting out people displaying the "hamer and sickel" on banners and flags or those expresing support for authoritarian figures like lenin,stalin and mao in slogans during AFA actions. For me this is a step too far but i do understand the sentiment.
What is your opinion?

[Sasha]

quotes from an articel about the Czech AFA:


Since its inception AFA has followed a bit extraordinary trajectory in comparison with other European groups of such name, because being clearly anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist with strong ties to anarchist groupings and recognizing the danger of totalitarian Left as equally menacing our freedoms as fascism.


Last, but not least, AFA activists were also known of actions against top representatives of Bolshevik Left, which tried to infiltrate the antiauthoritarian community and public actions.

During these years of fervent and combative activities AFA became intimately tied and symbiotic with specific anarchist groups. Year 2003 saw major strategic debate inside AFA and antifascist milieu, which resulted in what in reality were not major changes, but rather natural product of antiauthoritarian political development. AFA groups decided to advance themselves by joining the Federation of Anarchist Groups (member section of IWA) as its workgroup, to integrate into the anarchist workers movement.

This did not bring any substantial changes in shape of everyday AFA activity, but rather provided more effective framework for coherence, solidarity and mutual aid in antifascist struggle. For instance IWA sections and Secretariat were already crucial in major international campaign to free Czech antifascist prisoners in 1999 and AFA itself proved that it rightly belongs to this global community of struggle for freedom and anarchist communism.

source: http://www.antifa.cz/nclanky.php?id=2&tab=sc

and from the Rules of engagement by antifa wild east (http://antifa.bzzz.net/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=9) (poland)


- Authoritarian left is not an ally: all sorts of Lenin followers, communists and pro-state socialists never were and never will be on our side. For them anti-fascism is a disguise in struggle for power and from the history we can learn how communist's allies end up when they are no longer needed.

discuzzz please...

[jaffe]

a good text about this is.

The struggle against Fascism begins with the struggle against Bolshevism by Otto Ruhle

And maybe why east european antifascists are so hard on communists trying to join with them prooves what they (or there parents) experienced back in the days.

[rednordman]

The video was a bit too partizan, but i agreed with alot of its sentiments. Authoritarian or Anarchist it doesnt matter. In my opinion, people in society are beginning to white wash history a little bit. Im hearing too much of how in the nazi german army, the troopers where "just fighting for what they believed in" and were doing what they were told to do, where as the soviets where 'evil' and 'ruthless' and raped 'millions' of women in East Germany after the liberation. I do not dispuit that the Soviets have commited some atrocities, but for me, people are just taking the owness off the Nazis, whom incidently did much worser things. Mabey this is just me being touchy or paranoid though, in which case I apologise in advance.

[Wanted Man]

the Berlin Wall needed destroyed, it was a symbol of opression, remember that line in the (billy bragg version) internationale "let no one build walls to divide us"?
Of course it had to happen. But what's the point when all the causes for that wall still exist, and, in fact, have only gotten worse? Can anyone say that East Germany is better off now? The video is very partisan, and of course the Berlin Wall was not an 'anti-fascist monument'. But that aside, it does hit a nerve about how anti-communism and rehabilitation of fascism go hand in hand, especially in the Baltics. For that reason alone, I'll never agree with those anarchists who suggest that anti-fascists should fight 'Bolshevism' equally.


anti-facsim and anti-authoritarianism should I.M.O. always go hand in hand.
maybe this is a good topic to discuss this:
In the netherlands the autonomus anti-fascist movement (AFA etc) has always been heavely influenced by the anarchist squating movement. Recently we see an increase of intrest by leninist/bolschvic groups like the Comunist Youth (CJB) in the cause.
Although i apreciete this young enthousiastic activist i im very critical of their organisation.
Some people, espacely those with a background in/under influence from the AFA groups in eastern-europe even favor booting out people displaying the "hamer and sickel" on banners and flags or those expresing support for authoritarian figures like lenin,stalin and mao in slogans during AFA actions. For me this is a step too far but i do understand the sentiment.
What is your opinion?
I don't agree with this sentiment, but that's no surprise from my perspective. :p In any case, it is a good discussion to have. Better to hear it from both sides than simply act on prejudices.

Jaffe says that this attitude proves something about the Eastern European countries under socialism, but I'm not sure about that. What about the millions of workers in those countries who want a return to those days, and tend to respect the anti-fascist legacy of the Soviet Union? If you are anti-fascist, you should have a good view of what fascism is, not simply lump it together with communism as 'totalitarian'. Maybe the conflicts in Eastern Europe are a natural consequence of what happens when a relatively smaller, more 'subcultural' anarchist tendency gets confronted with the 'relics' of the 'old' socialism that had been dominant for many years.

Anyway, while I disagree with their attitude, maybe it's not entirely their problem. Communists should not try to 'infiltrate' or try to coup the anti-fascist movement. Communists should approach it openly, and with 100% solidarity. Not deal with it in an underhanded way, or only using the anti-fascists when convenient (invite them to nice media-savvy actions, and then snitch on the 'anarchist rioting kids' when they have the audacity to actually confront fascists...). Otherwise, the anarchists will always have reservations about working together.

I also think it is an unwise provocation to join an anti-fascist demo with Stalin or Mao pictures, and then expect all the other participants to accept and accomodate you. But this doesn't happen anyway, as far as I know. I don't think my organisation has ever ran around with Stalin pictures, and there is no reason for it, as nobody wants to glorify Stalin. So psycho, if you are critical of our organisation, what exactly do you think of it? :)

[jaffe]

I don't Lump together all communists as totalitarian. But what I have is my opinions on the USSR, what it was and what it did. I also have a different opinion about stalinism than most of your partymembers. I don't like a lot of revisionists that exist in your party.
You're also a member from AFVN, the antifascist union that says Stalin was the greatest antifascist of all time. This and experiences in the past (spanish civil war anyone?) had led me to the point that I as an antifascist prefer to not to cooperate with stalinists (marxist-leninists).

[Sprinkles]

This video accurately displays the connection between neoliberal capitalist anticommunist actions and the restauration of fascism and nazism.
The anticommunist actions taken by several eastern European governments are not "merely" anticommunism, but an attempt of renazification.


The video in the OP is so flawed it barely has any coherent argument at all, besides denouncing everything which isn't either pro-Stalinist or pro-Russian as fascist. The current resentment in the Baltic states against Russia (which is made synonymous with communism) has nothing to do with the re-emergence of fascism. But everything to do with the Russification and Soviet policy regarding ethnic groups in the the Baltic States.

For anyone interested in the subject - this article deals with the specifics of Operation Surf:
Article: http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/priboi.htm
Author: http://www.lza.lv/scientists/strodsh.htm

[Sprinkles]

Sorry for the double-post but I'm actually curious about what other people have to say about this and perhaps the OP will even respond.

The Baltic States were annexed under the 1939 German-Soviet pact and unlike the other imperialist powers, Russia was never forced to - and does not want to - decolonize their colonies even today, since this would mean losing all control over these sometimes economically vital areas.

The current nationalist groups in the Baltic States and their resentment to the Russians reflect a similar movement towards national autonomy and the complete separation from their former "benefactor" which the British Empire for example had experienced in India fifty years earlier.

Considering that a lot of people here talk about supporting this kind of "National Liberation" and would probably have supported India's independence from the British Empire, one would think they would support this cause as well? Why not? What's the difference here, Soviet nostalgia and it's Russian chauvinism?

[rednordman]

Sorry for the double-post but I'm actually curious about what other people have to say about this and perhaps the OP will even respond.

The Baltic States were annexed under the 1939 German-Soviet pact and unlike the other imperialist powers, Russia was never forced to - and does not want to - decolonize their colonies even today, since this would mean losing all control over these sometimes economically vital areas.

The current nationalist groups in the Baltic States and their resentment to the Russians reflect a similar movement towards national autonomy and the complete separation from their former "benefactor" which the British Empire for example had experienced in India fifty years earlier.

Considering that a lot of people here talk about supporting this kind of "National Liberation" and would probably have supported India's independence from the British Empire, one would think they would support this cause as well? Why not? What's the difference here, Soviet nostalgia and it's Russian chauvinism?
Sorry for late response. I do understand why the baltic states had alot of resentment towards the Soviet Union (as you have mentioned in your post) and they where right to be upset. That i can accept. But what annoys me is how I'v heard from some sources and documentories that they saw the nazis as 'liberators'. Sure the realisation probably sunk in very quickly after they invaded, but when former Estonian president Mart Laar helps set up a 'crimes of communism inverstigation foundation (FICC)', which hopes to make the ideology of communism an actual crime (according to wiki, take that how you like, though their (FICC) website is rather hardcore: communistcrimes.org) and publicly praises former Nazi colonel Alfons Rebane as "one of estonias most prominent soldiers", a few questions needs to be asked.
Sure, mabey they are not Nazis, but they see un-fettered capitalism as the only justice in the world. Whether we are a stalinist, troskyist or Anarchist, it doesn't matter, we are all equally murderous scum to them.
Also i see that they have made the public use of Communist icons a criminal offence (sometimes with bad punishments), I really do not hear much of fascists and neo-nazis within that part of Europe getting the same rap.

[Sprinkles]

But what annoys me is how I'v heard from some sources and documentories that they saw the nazis as 'liberators'. Sure the realisation probably sunk in very quickly after they invaded,


This is actually true. Parts of the population who lived in the Baltic States (and we're not talking about just some kulaks here,) appreciated their annexation by Stalin so much. That they really thought of the Third Reich as potential liberators who would ensure the independent existence of the Baltic States. The USSR's preventive and punitive deportations were directly aimed at punishing this kind of (potential) collaboration.



but when former Estonian president Mart Laar helps set up a 'crimes of communism inverstigation foundation (FICC)', which hopes to make the ideology of communism an actual crime (according to wiki, take that how you like, though their (FICC) website is rather hardcore: communistcrimes.org) and publicly praises former Nazi colonel Alfons Rebane as "one of estonias most prominent soldiers", a few questions needs to be asked.
I won't comment on the FICC or the website since I'm not familiar with them and they look extremely questionable.

But not every accusation that is made against the USSR in regards to crimes against humanity are fabrications out of the Black Book of Communism. Some of them, like Operation Priboi which I linked to, are extremely well documented and are legitimate grievances for the people of the Baltic States.

Also: Communism = / = Stalinism.



Sure, mabey they are not Nazis, but they see un-fettered capitalism as the only justice in the world. Whether we are a stalinist, troskyist or Anarchist, it doesn't matter, we are all equally murderous scum to them.
I don't understand your reasoning here: The enemy of my enemy is my friend?



Also i see that they have made the public use of Communist icons a criminal offence (sometimes with bad punishments), I really do not hear much of fascists and neo-nazis within that part of Europe getting the same rap.
In Germany all use of fascist and nazist imagery is outlawed and possession of them is considered a criminal offense.

[rednordman]

But not every accusation that is made against the USSR in regards to crimes against humanity are fabrications out of the Black Book of Communism. Some of them, like Operation Priboi which I linked to, are extremely well documented and are legitimate grievances for the people of the Baltic States. Indeed, this is an atrocity that should be documented, Not only for the peoples whom suffered, but also for it being a lesson from history.


Also: Communism = / = Stalinism.

I don't understand your reasoning here: The enemy of my enemy is my friend? In our eyes no, in their eyes yes. What i mean is that of coarse, it is perfectly reasonable to be a communist, yet totally oppose Stalins crimes. But to them (anti-communists and most other libertarians and conservatives), there is no question about it, were all stalinist sympathisers (you must have experienced these kinds of silly responses from them). Yes, they may sound pratronising, but this isn't simply due to the fact that they are totally ignourant about the left, it is because this is what they want to believe (therefor they want everyone to believe). This is why i believe that their is a bit of historical revisionism going on across europe. Thus, Stalins crimes are quite rightly used as an argument against Stalinism, but thing is, they want to use that argument to tar the whole of the left with the same breath. Its something that is simply unavoidable in todays day and age of capitalist liberal democracy.
Take for example, they very tired 'death toll' argument. These figures obviously represent huge tragedy in human history. But most of the time, it is simply used to make communism (i mean that in the plural sense also) look worse than Nazism. What they really want is for everyone to think that all forms of leftist thought (socialism to anarchism) is worse than Nazism. That coupled with the obvious rise of the far-right in Europe, unsettles me.
This 'enemy of an enemy' argument is something that is often used to tar the left (such as the medias perception of the SWPs alledged support for hamas)
Im not really arguing with you, and i appreciate you responses, but trust me, with a conservative, or certainly a hard/far-right Europe (and we are very close to the former), the constant unrelentless condemnation of leftist thought as a criminal thought may actually begin to happen.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

The video in the OP is so flawed it barely has any coherent argument at all, besides denouncing everything which isn't either pro-Stalinist or pro-Russian as fascist. The current resentment in the Baltic states against Russia (which is made synonymous with communism) has nothing to do with the re-emergence of fascism. But everything to do with the Russification and Soviet policy regarding ethnic groups in the the Baltic States.

For anyone interested in the subject - this article deals with the specifics of Operation Surf:
Article: http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/priboi.htm
Author: http://www.lza.lv/scientists/strodsh.htm
As you can see in the in the video, the new Baltic rulers really do support the return of fascism. They rewrite the history, praising the nazis, condemning the Soviets, ruining Soviet liberation monuments and building new monuments for the died German nazis.

[anarchia simera]

anti-facsim and anti-authoritarianism should I.M.O. always go hand in hand.
maybe this is a good topic to discuss this:
In the netherlands the autonomus anti-fascist movement (AFA etc) has always been heavely influenced by the anarchist squating movement. Recently we see an increase of intrest by leninist/bolschvic groups like the Comunist Youth (CJB) in the cause.
Although i apreciete this young enthousiastic activist i im very critical of their organisation.
Some people, espacely those with a background in/under influence from the AFA groups in eastern-europe even favor booting out people displaying the "hamer and sickel" on banners and flags or those expresing support for authoritarian figures like lenin,stalin and mao in slogans during AFA actions. For me this is a step too far but i do understand the sentiment.
What is your opinion?

i find this really interesting, you guys DO know that AFA was originally, and for many years, entirely communist! Not that i want to defend any authoritarians, just thought i would say it ;)

[Sasha]

well as far as i gathered contempary AFA was started in the german autonomist movement, which was predomantly marxist but not necerarly authoritarian.
let alone the fact that i'm dutch, where the autonomist scene (since an internal strugle where the maoist/marxist who started an small civil war where kicked out in the 80's) always been mostly anarchist orientated.
So the fact that (the dutch) afa is not very reseptive towards authoritarians shouldn't be that surprising.
leaves the fact that authoritarian communism in the netherlands is even an smaller cult than the autonimist/anarchist/squater movement who dominates AFA so i for myself adopt an united front (the trotskyst probely are going to corret me on this :rolleyes:) stance, i'm happy with every voice raised againts the fascist, we'll sort the rest of the shit out after the revolution (when it will ever come)

[Sprinkles]

As you can see in the in the video, the new Baltic rulers really do support the return of fascism. They rewrite the history, praising the nazis, condemning the Soviets, ruining Soviet liberation monuments and building new monuments for the died German nazis.


Of course the bourgeoisie of the Baltic States are reactionary and seek to denounce anything that looks like communism, but I'm not convinced that this means their actions are fascist.

It's certainly true that the Baltic States are openly hostile against Russia, but this is because they view the annexation of their countries as an occupation by the Soviets. The dismantling of Soviet war monuments reflects the aggressive assertion of their "new found" independence in the face of a resurgent Russia and is how the Baltic States seek to keep distance between themselves and their former Russian colonial occupier.



You see, we Marxists believe that a revolution will also take place in other countries. But it will take place only when the revolutionaries in those countries think it possible, or necessary. The export of revolution is nonsense. Every country will make its own revolution if it wants to, and if it does not want to, there will be no revolution.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/03/01.htm


If even Stalin himself said that the export of revolution was nonsense, then why was the annexation of both Poland and the Baltic States by the USSR justified? These countries certainly did not make their own revolution and like today, a lot of the people who lived there did not want to be a part of either Russia or the USSR.

So wasn't this a kind of social-imperialism? Shouldn't the people who oppose imperialism and support National Liberation; respect and aid the people of the Baltic States in their struggle to remain free of the influence of their former Russian colonial occupier?

(Personally I don't think anyone should have to support the bourgeoisie of the Baltic States, but that's because I don't think National Liberation is a revolutionary tactic.)

[Sprinkles]

so i for myself adopt an united front (the trotskyst probely are going to corret me on this :rolleyes:) stance, i'm happy with every voice raised againts the fascist, we'll sort the rest of the shit out after the revolution (when it will ever come)

I'm not a Trotskyist but I'll still correct you anyway. :D

The United Front was a tactic of the Comintern where communists worked together with Social Democrats in both parliament and the unions to defend the immediate, basic interests of the working class against the bourgeoisie.

What 'anarchia simera' probably referred to is that the origin of historical anti-fascism is for the most part associated with the Popular Front, which was a brainchild of Stalinism. As such the Popular Fronts were dominated by them and served the interests of the bourgeoisie when they coincided with the USSR's realpolitik, like their defense of the Spanish bourgeois state in spite of the Anarchist their initial interest in Social Revolution. Although modern day anti-fascism isn't dominated by Stalinism, it still shares many of the Popular Fronts ideological flaws. Like it's hurried abandonment of any anarchist or communist principles in order not to offend any liberal who might want to join them in the fight against fascism.

The Spanish Civil War showed that this attitude effectively means the Revolution is postponed and will never come about since the fight against fascism is a priority.



This 'enemy of an enemy' argument is something that is often used to tar the left (such as the medias perception of the SWPs alledged support for hamas)


Ehm, the SWP actually does support Hamas since they view them as an important part in the Palestinian struggle for National Liberation. You don't have to take my word on it though, here's an example of what they have to say about it themselves: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12130



...the constant unrelentless condemnation of leftist thought as a criminal thought may actually begin to happen.


I don't think there's anything to worry about. The communist movement and even all of the radical left combined, is still such a small and insignificant fringe movement that it's not something which keeps the bourgeoisie up at night.



But to them (anti-communists and most other libertarians and conservatives), there is no question about it, were all stalinist sympathisers (you must have experienced these kinds of silly responses from them).


The fact that the bourgeoisie doesn't distinguish between different forms of socialist or anarchist ideologies doesn't mean we should have to defend the skeletons Stalinism left in the closet. Especially since they're something which the revolutionary movement has to deal with one way or another and I don't think making excuses for them helps.

In my opinion the more honest we're about this the better. Especially since the dissolution of the USSR was in part a consequence of the resurgence of a combative working class and the subsequent disintegration of the old "Marxist-Leninist" movement opened up new perspectives for an actual revolutionary communist movement.

[anarchia simera]

well as far as i gathered contempary AFA was started in the german autonomist movement, which was predomantly marxist but not necerarly authoritarian.
let alone the fact that i'm dutch, where the autonomist scene (since an internal strugle where the maoist/marxist who started an small civil war where kicked out in the 80's) always been mostly anarchist orientated.
So the fact that (the dutch) afa is not very reseptive towards authoritarians shouldn't be that surprising.
leaves the fact that authoritarian communism in the netherlands is even an smaller cult than the autonimist/anarchist/squater movement who dominates AFA so i for myself adopt an united front (the trotskyst probely are going to corret me on this :rolleyes:) stance, i'm happy with every voice raised againts the fascist, we'll sort the rest of the shit out after the revolution (when it will ever come)

you are right, also where i am from i find mostly anti-authoritarians around the AFA scene. but i believe this tendency is only started aroudn the 80's (90's here in Denmark). Anti-Fascistische Aktion was origanally founded in 1923 (pls do correct me if im wrong on the year, though i know for a FACT that they were very active in the 30's) as a section of the Rotfrontkampferferbund (communist).