We must destroy racism! - Racism is evil

[Supernius]

Race is a fact of nature. Racism, however, is a capitalist creation. It is profitable to the capitalist devils because it keeps the proletariat disunited, and thus conduces to keeping them in power. To unite, and to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat (a sacred thing), we must eliminate racism, we must eliminate differences, we must be equals, we must be the same, we must not have diversity, rather like those most admirable creatures which I like to call "Little Jesuses", i.e. ants. But we are not the same! and, unless we do something about it, we will have this disease called diversity invariable! Consequently, there are only three options: we must mix every race together, to be equal; we must separate each race, and permit each race to have the human right of self-determination, a human right of which great comrade Stalin himself approved; or we must destroy all but once race. But who wants to do the latter? Not many people. What, then, is the best option? What must we do to destroy racism (and the capitalist devils therewith)?

[Tkinter1]

"Racism, however, is a capitalist creation."


LOLOLOL

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 8:56 pm on April 23, 2003
"Racism, however, is a capitalist creation."


LOLOLOL

Read about some of the laws that were first passed into this country created exactly to divide the poor blacks and the poor non-land owning whites. It gave them something to fight amongst themselve over instead of fighting the rich. It is very deliberate by those in power during the conception and years following of this nation.

[Tkinter1]

LOL. So you agree with him that Capitalism CREATED racism? So predating 1776 racism was non-existent?

"Read about some of the laws that were first passed into this country created exactly to divide the poor blacks and the poor non-land owning whites. It gave them something to fight amongst themselve over instead of fighting the rich.""

...Laws that have since been repealed?

[Tkinter1]

"we must eliminate differences, we must be equals, we must be the same, we must not have diversity"

"or we must destroy all but once race."

Ok Hitler...

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 10:17 pm on April 23, 2003)

[Ymir]

"Ok Hitler"
Whenever someone can't respond properly they say something like that.

I would like to see all humans (and other organisms destroyed) so that a new greater species can take their place. Humans need heavy modification before they could work well in a state. Race is irrelevant, all races will be destroyed.




(Edited by Ymir at 10:49 pm on April 23, 2003)

[Voice of Reason]

i wonder if you mean rascism or bigotry? rascism is the belief that your somehow genetically superior to another because of race. bigotry just means you dont like them.

while I dont like bigoted people I dont know how to "declare war" on them anymore then is currently done(ostrasizing, making it socially unacceptable) without putting them in jail or killing them all. and i dont think either of those solutions makes any sense because then we'ed become what we hate. bigots who hate bigoted people. hahahah

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 10:07 pm on April 23, 2003
LOL. So you agree with him that Capitalism CREATED racism? So predating 1776 racism was non-existent?

"Read about some of the laws that were first passed into this country created exactly to divide the poor blacks and the poor non-land owning whites. It gave them something to fight amongst themselve over instead of fighting the rich.""

...Laws that have since been repealed?


When was 1776 the creation date of capitalism? Capitalism existed prior to the creation date of the United States. You are getting your economics confused with your government structure.

Obviously you are a very black and white thinker. Saying it was invented by capitalism is obviously wrong, since capitalism isn't a person that sits around with wax and a tube trying to record sound.

Read things like Howard Zinn, History of the People of the United States. He goes into great detail about all the different laws that were passed that had little to do other than seperate and create racisim rifts. Prior to that America was for the most part just classism, with Land Owners vs. the Poor. He goes into great detail and I am not going to post all the laws and all the chapters relating to this. Since these laws in that time were written by capitalists, that is who ran the country, rich land owners, it is very safe to say that racisism within in this country is given the seed to grow from the laws purposely created to cause those rifts.

I don't care if the laws are repealed later or not, we have a seat belt law right now in Oregon. Most people because of this law began wearing their seatbelts. If the law is dropped, how many people will automaticly stop wearing their seat belts while in the car. Most won't and most will still have their children wear belts.

And the laws I was speaking about are the laws giving white non-land owners rights over the blacks. Both were considered slaves by society at the time. And yes those laws were repealed, like around the time of the civil war.

Nevemrind the people that shipped blacked people for a profit were capitalists as well, and that was prior to the creation of US. But it was still capitalists nonetheless.

[Tkinter1]

"When was 1776 the creation date of capitalism? Capitalism existed prior to the creation date of the United States. You are getting your economics confused with your government structure."

The system of Capitalism outlined in The Wealth of Nations was written in 1776. So if the system of capitalism was created in 1776, and racism was created by Capitalism then racism must not have existed before 1776...

"Obviously you are a very black and white thinker. Saying it was invented by capitalism is obviously wrong, since capitalism isn't a person that sits around with wax and a tube trying to record sound."

Obviously thats why I quoted the statement made by Supernius, "Racism, however, is a capitalist creation."

"I don't care if the laws are repealed later or not, we have a seat belt law right now in Oregon. Most people because of this law began wearing their seatbelts. If the law is dropped, how many people will automaticly stop wearing their seat belts while in the car."

People are not racist because of old laws. People are racist (I think this is what you were getting at) because of familial tendencies towards racism(Passed down). Which is why education is aimed at breaking these tendencies. And diversity and individuality are becoming more and more welcomed in this nation.
There are some people that truly believe their race is the superior race, and it has nothing to do with what laws were imposed at what time, and it has nothing to do with capitalism or capitalists. It Probably has more to do with misinterpretations of religion and genetics.

"it is very safe to say that racisism within in this country is given the seed to grow from the laws purposely created to cause those rifts."

The laws that don't exist anymore? The laws that are denounced today? The laws that have laws against them?

"Whenever someone can't respond properly they say something like that."

Sorry, but I was brought up to embrace diversity.

Racism didn't start with capitalism and won't end with socialism. People have and always will notice differences between one another, and some will see themselves as superior to one another. At the same time people will also sometimes see themselves inferior to one another. But the answer is not wiping out diversity and creating a master race. The answer is teaching to embrace diversity, and understanding.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Only hopeless fools think of wiping out rascism out of the surface. You cannot remove all the dirt in a building. Some people who are against rascism... actually are rascists themselves. I mean... I see them stereotyping a few societies... especially the (not) beloved Germans, some think that the Germans are a bunch of Nazis... er... Those people who say are not much better.

Anyway, no matter how friggin' hard you try, rascism will always remain in the globe, as shite will always remain in your arse... Or intestins... Or bladder, whatever..

But rascism created by Capitals? Hahhahahahah! I pronounce you as the comedian of the day!

Note: Do not listen to what Boris says, he is a total dumbarse

[synthesis]

http://www.plp.org/pamphlets/smash_racism.html

[synthesis]

Theories of Racism

History shows us that racism has not always existed and that it did not develop from ideas. It developed from the need for cheap labor in the earliest stages of capitalism, and from the need to divide and conquer workers in order to control them.

Slavery in the Ancient World
Racism in the United States emerged along with slavery, in the 1600s and 1700s. But slavery existed in the world long before that.
Ancient societies were based on slavery; however slavery in these societies, was not based on "race". A person became a slave by being defeated in war, or sometimes because of bankruptcy or punishment for certain crimes. Slaves in Rome came from what is now England, France, eastern Europe, north Africa -- wherever the Roman Empire had conquered. (In fact, the word "slave" comes from Slav -- the name given to people from eastern Europe.) Roman slaves came in all colors, from the palest to the darkest. In north Africa, black Africans were the largest group of slaves, but there were also white, Christian slaves. In those days, slaves could sometimes be set free, and if they were, they would be equal to the other free people. Racism as we know it did not exist.

During the "Middle Ages" in Europe, there was a good deal of contact with African societies. At that time, Africa was more advanced than Europe: it had large cities, universities, huge armies and a lively trade with Asia and the Mediterranean. Africa was admired as a continent of gold and riches. European churches dating back to those days have statues and paintings of black saints in them. Racism as we know it did not exist in those times, either.


Race and Racism Were Created by Capitalism

When slavery developed in the "New World" in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds, it was a new type of slavery. It was slavery within the capitalist economy. But slave labor is not the usual form of labor under capitalism: wage labor is. So why did slavery develop in the Americas? And why is it that the slaves were Africans?
When the British began to develop profitable plantations in their American colonies they faced a serious shortage of workers. They also faced the problem of labor discipline because it was easy for workers to leave the plantations or escape to the Indians.

The British tried several ways of dealing with the labor shortage. The main one, at first, was indentured servitude . Under this system, unemployed people from England were convinced to come to America or were kidnapped. They were forced to work without wages to pay off their passage to America from England, usually for seven years. People were packed like sardines into the holds of ships for two to three months. Sometimes, fewer than half of them survived the trip. When people died, they were tossed overboard. Once they arrived in America, they were auctioned off to buyers. Husbands, wives and children were separated. These were white, English people: racism had nothing to do with it. It was just plain capitalist greed.

Indentured servants were brutally exploited. The plantation owners and the colonial government violently disciplined these workers. Runaways were punished by hanging, burning, being staked in the sun or shot. It was also legal to increase their seven-year contract as punishment for various misdeeds. At this stage, most indentured servants did not even live until the end of their seven year contract.

The shipmasters and merchants who brought white laborers to the colonies also went to Africa to get laborers. Slavery of the early, pre-capitalist type existed in west Africa at that time. When different groups went to war, people who were captured became slaves -- not for life, and not without rights, but still slaves. British and other European merchants offered money to purchase captured slaves, and they found the African slave owning rulers willing to sell.


"Africans joined whites as indentured servants and went through the same hell..."


For several decades, the Africans brought to North America joined whites as indentured servants. They went through the same hell, from the boat passage to the auction block to the beatings and harsh conditions. In the colonies, they worked and lived alongside the whites. There was no barrier between white and black servants: their common enemy created an intense solidarity, which overcame the superficial differences in language and cultural habits. They lived, worked, and married together. They often ran away together, and on several occasions they rebelled together.

In the 1660s all this began to change -- drastically. England cut back on white emigration. The industrial revolution was beginning so more workers were needed in the factories at home. British capitalists also gave massive support to the African slave trade. They had made a decision to base the American economic system on human slavery, and the supply of labor from Africa was cheap and plentiful.


"British capitalists made a conscious decision to base the American economic system on human slavery."


The slave trade was immensely profitable. The profits from buying and selling African workers, combined with the rape of gold and silver from South and Central America, provided the capital to drive the engine of the industrial revolution. Europe became the top dog in the world based on the enslavement of American Indians and Africans.

At this time, the colonial ruling class (plantation owning families like the Washingtons, Jeffersons, Mathers and Byrds: the "fathers of our country") began to legalize slavery. At first, some plantation owners began to hold certain Africans for life, rather than for seven years. Then lifetime servitude for black servants became law. In 1662 came the "principal of heredity," which declared that, legally, if the mother was a black slave, the child would also be a slave from birth.

But in a society which until then had paid almost no attention to skin color, a number of questions had to be answered: what was a black person? What was a white person? What was a child whose parents were different colors? At this stage, the concept of race needed to be made up. To do this, more laws were passed. The Virginia legislature, in 1672, defined a black person: anyone with one black grandparent. (Hitler used a parallel law to define a "Jew".) This was very significant: if it was necessary to pass a law to define a "race," it is obvious that at that time, people did not think of each other as belonging to separate "races."

These laws represent the beginning of the idea of racism. The idea was that whites were superior to blacks. This idea was very profitable, so it didn't bother the capitalist rulers of the colonies that it was a blatant lie. They used the idea to justify all past, present and future exploitation and abuse of black people, Indians, and later, other "people of color."

The final step in this process was that black people lost all their rights and became the property of the slave owners. Every aspect of the trade and of slavery became even more brutal. Millions of black people were murdered by capitalism in this process.

But the colonial rulers still faced a big problem: both whites and blacks resisted the new system. Although most historians today say that racism came about because Europeans were "naturally" prejudiced against Africans because of their skin color, the truth is that skin color was an excuse for racism, not the cause of it.


"The truth is that skin color was an excuse for racism, not the cause of it."


Blacks and whites did not view each other as different races. They had to be trained to. This training was ruthless and carefully planned, and continues to this day! The legislatures, the churches, the courts and the press were all used in the campaign. The purpose was to separate whites and blacks in order to control both. This made slavery possible. It also made it possible for the ruling class to make huge profits off the backs of poor white workers and farmers who were divided from their black brothers and sisters, and confused by racism about the cause of their poverty.

Laws were passed to punish whites who had black friends, or who ran away with black people, and vice versa. Laws were passed against interracial dating and marriage -- which people ignored for more than a century. Black and white people were punished by torture, maiming and death for breaking these laws. Opponents of the system were branded, castrated, starved to death, roasted to death over fires. White and black rebels were beheaded, and their heads put on poles along the roads as warnings.

Despite all this, rebellion and unity continued. Whites in general still had not learned to be racist. They openly disobeyed the laws.

The ruling class began to offer rewards to each group to betray the other: Indians were offered bounties for betraying black runaways, blacks were given minor rewards for helping to fight Indians, whites were used against both.

The bosses eventually "persuaded" many white workers to identify with their masters instead of their black brothers and sisters. As racism came to be more accepted, conditions for whites got even worse. The plantations system grew, forcing them off any land they might farm, and out of any jobs they might get.

The truth, hidden by the bosses, is that racist ideas and practices were forced on the working class by one hundred years of violence, laws and propaganda. White workers as well as black slaves became victims of it. The capitalists who devised racism clearly knew what they were doing.


"Racist ideas were forced on the working class by one hundred years of violence and propaganda."


The capitalists made racism an essential part of their system, but they never succeeded in squashing the opposition to it. Because racism (then and now) is against the direct interests of the working class, many workers, both slave and "free," continued to unite in rebellions against slavery. Although they were defeated by the overwhelmingly superior force of the government, there were hundreds of slave revolts in the United States, a great many of which involved white workers and farmers. The event which touched off the Civil War was the Harper's Ferry raid. This carefully planned raid was intended to be the beginning of an army of escaped slaves and a guerrilla war in the south. It was an integrated raid, and one of the main organizers was John Brown, who was white.

Slavery Ended, but Racism Continued

The Civil War was in part a heroic uprising against slavery by slaves themselves, with the support of many workers from the northern states. The Civil War was also a battle by the industrial capitalists of the north to control the nation, because the southern slave owners were trying to split off and set up their own, separate country. Although they were not particularly out to end slavery, the northern leadership discovered after several years of war that they could not win the war without unleashing the power of the slaves. So, eventually (no thanks to Abe Lincoln), slavery in the U.S. was abolished.
But racism did not die along with it. Capitalists both north and south knew what a profitable thing racism was. And they were terrified by what happened immediately after the Civil War in the south.

At the end of the war, former slaves settled on the old plantation land. (The owners had been driven off during the war, or could no longer control their former slaves.) Poor white workers and farmers came to join them. These integrated forces created a mass movement which took over the plantation land, farmed it communally, set up its own, integrated schools, and elected black and white workers to the state and federal governments. Clearly, this was a no-win situation for capitalism. It had to be stopped, by any means necessary.

The former slave owning ruling class of the south sat down with the bankers to work out a plan to retake the land and bring the workers under their control. They knew it couldn't legally be slavery, but they would opt for the next best thing. To accomplish their plans, they needed a vicious, violent campaign similar to the one which, two hundred years earlier, had established slavery. In the 1870's the Ku Klux Klan was born. The bankers, plantation owners, local police and court officials, and their sons, relatives and friends, put on sheets and went out at night to terrorize the communal farmers. The northern capitalists helped out by withdrawing the anti-racist federal troops which had occupied the south since the Civil War's end.

The newly united ruling class succeeded in forcing the former slaves back to work for next-to-no wages, and in forcing a resegregation of workers. Within a few decades, a fresh crop of racist laws appeared across the south, forbidding any close relationships between black and white. (These were called the Jim Crow laws, and they remained on the books until the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s.) The bosses had what they wanted: a beaten down working class, divided by race. Now the northern industrial capitalists had a huge pool of workers to draw from as they expanded their production in the early 1900s. Black workers by the tens of thousands came north to work in the booming factories of Chicago, Detroit and New York. And with them, the bosses made sure, came all the ideas and institutions of racism. What had worked so well to ensure profits and a weakened, divided work force in the south, they wanted in their factories and cities as well.

[Voice of Reason]

i guess christopher columbus wasnt rascist then because he didn't own any slaves

[synthesis]

Quote: from Voice of Reason on 5:50 am on April 24, 2003
i guess christopher columbus wasnt rascist then because he didn't own any slavesSuperb example. Christopher Colombus was racist precisely because it was the mindset necessary to further his own capitalist greed. Ties in rather well with the author's points.

[Voice of Reason]

yea but in 1492 it wasn't exactly the same capitalism as it is known today. it was just lets get money for the queen. so you could make this argument about rascist in history because throughout all history thats been the only standard any nation has ever used. and because we dont have a communist example(or maybe we do if you look at russia killing all those ppl they didnt want around.... the undesirable/enlightened race) you can say its all a capitalist invention.

[Totalitarian]

Racial tensions will always exist, because different branches of mankind have differing evolutionary histories.

As the original poster suggested; mass-hybridisation, racial self-determination & genocide are the only solutions.

I favour the second option. In general, people do not like to mix with people that are racially distant from them, otherwise we would already be a mixed hybrid race. If racial/ethnic groups have the prerequisites for survival (sovereign territory) then there will be less conflict with others, because they won't feel as threatened.

Racism is a natural thing; racism is what caused the human race to conquer the sub-human races thousands of years ago and establish global human supremacy.

Genocide in a modern context however, is simply barbaric. We have (hopefully) evolved enough not to engage in this practise.

[truthaddict11]

Capitalism or Imperialism and Racism and Slavery are interlinked here is a link (http://www.isreview.org/issues/26/roots_of_racism.shtml)

[Supernius]

Quote: from Totalitarian on 10:38 am on April 24, 2003
Racial tensions will always exist, because different branches of mankind have differing evolutionary histories.

As the original poster suggested; mass-hybridisation, racial self-determination & genocide are the only solutions.

I favour the second option. In general, people do not like to mix with people that are racially distant from them, otherwise we would already be a mixed hybrid race. If racial/ethnic groups have the prerequisites for survival (sovereign territory) then there will be less conflict with others, because they won't feel as threatened.

Racism is a natural thing; racism is what caused the human race to conquer the sub-human races thousands of years ago and establish global human supremacy.

Genocide in a modern context however, is simply barbaric. We have (hopefully) evolved enough not to engage in this practise.


Finally, someone I agree with.

Mankind are not equal; they are different. Some races are statistically better at some things than are others. To say this is not racist; it is merely a stating of facts. I do not believe that there is a superior race, but I do acknowledge the fact that there are differences which are more than skin deep: hence I believe, for the sake of efficiency and unity, in racial self-deterimation. Separate each race, and with each race thus united among themselves, each race will improve their productive efficiency ten thousand fold.

As regards the other option -- the mixing of the races:
Different ways of hunting and surviving in different locations resulted in different developments, both hormonal, physical -- and even psychological. These differences are sacred, and I respect the unique differences of the Asiatic, the Jew, and the other races; however, the mixing of the races, however great they are individually, would reduce the quality of mankind. We would be less intelligent, for one. And I say this based not on "prejudices", but on sound scientific studies which indicate that there ARE significant differences -- such is the opinion of qualified people in general.

[Invader Zim]

Racism has always existed and always will. Even some communists are racist, that prick who got banned a little while ago is an excelent example.

It is a natural human tendancy to want to feal superia to another person. Racism is just another way that people express that need for a fealing supremacy. This combined with economic hardship breads the modern racism you see. The poorly educated people see black people, Jews etc doing well, or under cutting there wages just adds to that natural fealing of hatred and or fear.

Saying that Capitalism is the cause of racism is just plain stupid. Capitalism is wrong but dont blame all lifes probems on it because you will just look like an stupid knob.

[Hampton]

Supernius you must believe in the Bell Curve too.

[Moskitto]

As regards the other option -- the mixing of the races:
Different ways of hunting and surviving in different locations resulted in different developments, both hormonal, physical -- and even psychological. These differences are sacred, and I respect the unique differences of the Asiatic, the Jew, and the other races; however, the mixing of the races, however great they are individually, would reduce the quality of mankind. We would be less intelligent, for one. And I say this based not on "prejudices", but on sound scientific studies which indicate that there ARE significant differences -- such is the opinion of qualified people in general.

this is bullshit, anyone who believes this knows little about genetics, mixing DNA as much as possible improves the human gene pool because only individuals fit enough to reproduce can pass on their genes so only good genes will be passed on, sure their are genetic differences between races, such as native americans being unable to consume as much alcohol as white people or asiatics, but in a society where there is wide drinking, genes allowing more drinking will be passed on, social differences between races are based on social engineering, not genetics. The Hapsburg family married cousins and ended up not being able to eat or drink properly.


(Edited by Moskitto at 11:14 pm on April 24, 2003)

[Boris Moskovitz]

I agree with Moskitto, it is not our 'genes' that made us different, it is us... And we can also blame Mother Earth :biggrin:

The color of our skin has been chosen by our environment, and it is the same with our other physical structures, but oh well... Class is finished! YEE-HAH!

I'M GOIN' HOME! XD
WOO-HOO!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

When we [socialists] say that all proletarians must unite in order to suppress the bourgeoisie, to achieve a society where all are economicaly equal and social classes are obsolete, we are often missunderstood. We do not mean that diversity must be ignored and everyone must loose any individuality. We do not at all mean this (I hope). To be truly united, we must forget things like race, gender, nationality, ethnicity, etc, not heritage and individuality. The problem comes from capitalism, in capitalism, one's class has become a key method of identifying people and a method of setting people appart from each other. Class has become a part of one's idividuality [in capitalsim], so when we speak of removing classes, we are accused of removing idividuality, but we are not. In fighting racism, we are fighting a class-struggle. All struggles against oppression are class-stuggles, weather it is between races, or nations. One race must be a force of oppression upon the other, and thus it [the oppressing class] creates for itself, upper-class-status.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from AK47 on 8:14 pm on April 24, 2003
Racism has always existed and always will. Even some communists are racist, that prick who got banned a little while ago is an excelent example.

It is a natural human tendancy to want to feal superia to another person. Racism is just another way that people express that need for a fealing supremacy. This combined with economic hardship breads the modern racism you see. The poorly educated people see black people, Jews etc doing well, or under cutting there wages just adds to that natural fealing of hatred and or fear.

Saying that Capitalism is the cause of racism is just plain stupid. Capitalism is wrong but dont blame all lifes probems on it because you will just look like an stupid knob.


Read all of what Dyermaker posted up above. Read something and prove some points and just opinions. There is a lot of information provided and researched into the fact that Racism has not always existed.

There has been religious differences and tribal wars but not Racism. Racism is not something that just spontaneously happens, it has to be taught. It isn't natural for people to want to feel superior to others. Prove that AK47, prove your point.

So that huge post that Dyermaker just posted about how and why racism is linked with capitalism and birthed by captialism makes him look like a stupid knob? In comparison to your? "Well that is just stupid" argument?

Open your mind and read what people post here before opening your mouth so quickly. Here ya go, Read Howard Zinn's History of the United States and you would know all the laws passed and what parties passed them and what papers were printing prior to the laws and what they printed after wards... and you would know why. Otherwise you are just showing how little of the information you know and how you only have opinions not facts.

[Totalitarian]

Racism is not something that just spontaneously happens, it has to be taught. It isn't natural for people to want to feel superior to others

http://ca.altermedia.info/index.php?p=164&more=1&c=1
A Melbourne University study of 112 mainly Anglo-Australian 4 and 5-year-olds found they were uncomfortable playing with non-white dolls. An Aboriginal doll was practically ignored, with one child saying: "It's yuck, yucky. Put it back." Caucasian children showed a strong preference for Anglo-dolls. "Some children had a very clear discomfort with the dark-skinned doll. They didn't want to touch her and asked for her to be removed," said research co-ordinator Glenda MacNaughton.


(Edited by Totalitarian at 4:25 pm on April 26, 2003)

[Tkinter1]

Totalitarian,

Where does that article say anywhere that racism was taught? All that shows is that there is a natural dislike for "different" dolls(that they were never exposed to) and that education should be aimed at breaking it, which I totally agree with. Unfortunately, I doubt will have any huge impact.

"It isn't natural for people to want to feel superior to others"

Completley untrue. Even animals have tendencies to fight for group superiority(see any pack animal) , and the weak or different(often deformed) are ostracized and sometimes not even fed.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:22 pm on April 26, 2003)

[synthesis]

yea but in 1492 it wasn't exactly the same capitalism as it is known today.

Capitalism, at its core, is acting to acquire capital. Etymologically, it stands only in opposition to feudalism, which is acting to acquire land.

Colombus, in his search for Asia, was expressly intending to acquire the 10,000 maravedis per year that the Spanish court offered to the first man to sight land.

(Of course, we all know that another crewman spotted land first, and Colombus merely claimed it for himself.)

He was operating to acquire capital - therefore, his actions were capitalist.

Later, obviously, he was searching for the gold that was (not) abundant in Hispaniola at the time, but that merely correlates further to Colombus's racist, capitalist greed.

it was just lets get money for the queen

EXACTLY.

AK47, exploitedclass dealt with you rather well. Capitalism can't be blamed for the socks one loses in the laundry machine, but it's certainly responsible for a lot of horrible shit that's happened in the past and a lot of horrible shit that's happening now.

(Edited by DyerMaker at 11:03 pm on April 26, 2003)

[Tkinter1]

"he was operating to acquire capital"

Which really doesn't have a lot to do with racism.

[synthesis]

Which really doesn't have a lot to do with racism.

Uh, have you been paying attention?

Racism was quite necessary for Christopher Columbus to justify his actions. In Haiti, all people over fourteen years of age had to hand over a certain quality of nonexistant gold, and were given copper tokens to wear around their necks. The Natives who were seen without the necklaces were executed by having their hands cut off and then bleeding to death.

Christopher Colombus's gold-related, capitalist interests could not be furthered without operating under the belief that the Arawaks were somehow subhuman and deserving of their punishments.

In other words - the racism was entirely necessary to justify the capitalism.

[Tkinter1]

dyer,

Look at how the natives dressed(or didn't) and acted. They probably looked like animals to him praising satan or some false idol. It's more likely that(intolerance) is what fueled his racism. Not capitalism.

They were nothing but rich heathens to him.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 12:00 am on April 27, 2003)

[synthesis]

Can you back any of that up? Make a case so I can respond to it. All you've engaged in is a hefty bit of speculation that doesn't refute my argument in any significant way.

So intolerance goes hand in hand with racism - what else is new? I'm looking at the source here, as you should be.

I ask again: Will you provide any evidence that Colombus's atrocities were fueled not by his greed, but by some religious motivation?

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 8:19 pm on April 26, 2003


Completley untrue. Even animals have tendencies to fight for group superiority(see any pack animal) , and the weak or different(often deformed) are ostracized and sometimes not even fed.


I guess we know which of us have evolved and which of us are stuck believing we are still pack animals.

Next time you are out for some food, be sure to club those around you. You would hate to lose your next meal to a competitor.

[Tkinter1]

"So intolerance goes hand in hand with racism"

Colombus was intolerant of natives(Known fact), that is why he was a racist.

And dyer what exactly is your undeniable proof/source that links columbus' racism with capitalism?
____

"I guess we know which of us have evolved and which of us are stuck believing we are still pack animals."

You seem to think we've evolved passed our instincts. It may not be as prevalent as in pack animals but the instinct is still there.

"Next time you are out for some food, be sure to club those around you. You would hate to lose your next meal to a competitor."

H I L A R I O U S !

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 1:45 am on April 27, 2003)

[synthesis]

My proof? I cited an example under which the natives were penalized (read: executed) for not indulging his capitalistic desires well enough.

I can do this more, if you like. Any native who fled the gold mines was hunted down and killed with dogs as a warning to the others.

Elaborate. You haven't done so. It's impossible for me to debate you when you're being as vague and obscure as you are here.

I'll say it again: The racism of Christopher Colombus was not merely a side effect, but the entire justification for his exploitation and genocide of the natives of Hispaniola.

[synthesis]

By the way, your claim of religious motivation is impossible, because the Arawaks were areligious.

[Tkinter1]

"I ask again: Will you provide any evidence that Colombus's atrocities were fueled not by his greed, but by some religious motivation"

Columbus's enslavement, murder and theft was fueled by his greed I'm not denying that. But his racism was not caused by capitalism. His racism was caused by his intolerance for the native people. He would have to be intolerant and ignorant to simply come and destroy their culture, steal their wealth, murder them, and then to add insult to injury try and convert them to christianity.

From http://www.un.org/WCAR/e-kit/indigenous.htm

"..Specifically, in the fifteenth century, two Papal Bulls set the stage for European domination of the New World and Africa. Romanus Pontifex, issued by Pope Nicholas V to King Alfonso V of Portugal in 1452, declared war against all non-Christians throughout the world, and specifically sanctioned and promoted the conquest, colonization, and exploitation of non-Christian nations and their territories."

These "doctrines of discovery" provided the basis for both the "law of nations" and subsequent international law. Thus, they allowed Christian nations to claim "unoccupied lands" (terra nullius), or lands belonging to "heathens" or "pagans"."

"The indigenous peoples were pushed aside and marginalized by the dominant descendents of Europeans."

"My proof? I cited an example under which the natives were penalized (read: executed) for not indulging his capitalistic desires well enough."

All you've proven is that he is a sick, greedy, slave driver. You haven't proven that capitalism caused his racism.

"I can do this more, if you like. Any native who fled the gold mines was hunted down and killed with dogs as a warning to the others."

Any slave that ever ran in the history of slavery(even with same race) was hunted down to set an example. You still haven't proven that capitalism caused his racism.

"Arawaks were areligious"

This only further affirms my point that columbus thought of them as heathens. And he most certainly wouldn't care if they were enslaved, beaten or tortured.

His greed and racism without a doubt helped him justify his actions. But his greedy attitude did not cause his racism.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 4:22 am on April 27, 2003)

[synthesis]

Well, we should define certain things first. What, specifically, do you mean when you are referring to Colombus's racism?

I define it as his belief that the Arawak Indians were subhuman animals, a relegation necessary for him to create so that he could exploit them as cruelly as he did.

[Tkinter1]

"Well, we should define certain things first. What, specifically, do you mean when you are referring to Colombus's racism?

I define it as his belief that the Arawak Indians were subhuman animals, a relegation necessary for him to create so that he could exploit them as cruelly as he did."

I define it as his belief that the Arawak(and any other tribe) were heathens, amoral and enemies of god. This all confirmed by his religion. The fact that he could get work out of them was a perk.

If you think about it he had no need to justify his actions. His religion did that for him.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:33 am on April 27, 2003)

[truthaddict11]

Tkinter, do you not consider the use of concentration camp labor in WW2 by General Motors and Ford not to be a link between Capitalism and Slavery and Racism?

[Tkinter1]

"Tkinter, do you not consider the use of concentration camp labor in WW2 by General Motors and Ford not to be a link between Capitalism and Slavery and Racism?"

I've never heard of ford/GM concentration camp labor during WW2, can you post me a source?

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:44 pm on April 29, 2003)

[Tkinter1]

But even so, I can't see how that would link capitalism to the cause of racism. Racism already existed.

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 8:19 pm on April 26, 2003
Totalitarian,

Where does that article say anywhere that racism was taught? All that shows is that there is a natural dislike for "different" dolls(that they were never exposed to) and that education should be aimed at breaking it, which I totally agree with. Unfortunately, I doubt will have any huge impact.

I didn't claim it was taught, i think you mistook the portion of someone elses reply that i used as being my own words.

In my opinion, racism is basically a natural instinct to preserve gene pools, eventually leading towards speciation. I do not think education could change this anymore than it could change people's preference for certain types of foods. Psycho-therapy could possibly have some effect, although that is Thought Police stuff.

Furthermore, i don't have any problem with the way nature has hard-wired humans to preserve their own kind. It's what keeps the Human Race diverse.

[hazard]

totalitarian, you sound a bit like a nazi. actually, YOU ARE A NAZI.

"racism is basically a natural instinct to preserve gene pools"

"i don't have any problem with the way nature has hard-wired humans to preserve their own kind."


prove me wrong, adolf, prove me wrong

[truthaddict11]

tkinter here is a link http://www.theawfultruth.com/salbmw/

" A well-known anti-semite, Henry Ford, published anti-Jewish slanders and was awarded the highest medal Hitler could award a foreigner (The Grand Cross of the German Eagle). Ford was even named in Hitler's auto-biography, Mein Kampf, as the only man in America who was fully independent from Jewish control.

A US Army report shows Ford, the company, as an enthusiastic supporter of Hitler's regime whose German division made huge profits in becoming an "arsenal of Nazism." "


(Edited by truthaddict11 at 6:27 am on April 30, 2003)

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from hazard on 5:52 am on April 30, 2003
totalitarian, you sound a bit like a nazi. actually, YOU ARE A NAZI.

"racism is basically a natural instinct to preserve gene pools"

"i don't have any problem with the way nature has hard-wired humans to preserve their own kind."


prove me wrong, adolf, prove me wrong



Are you saying i'm a national socialist, a white supremacist or what? I don't have any sympathy with genocidal movements.

A feature of evolution is natural segregation of races. Different populations become reproductively isolated & inherited mutations occur at a different frequency. Eventually, they will usually form into new species.

In humans, like all other species, there is racial variation caused by reproductive isolation over many thousands of years. Humans generally identify with their closer kin, for the purposes of mating & sharing terrritory.

An similar example in the animal world is the wolf, coyote and dog. They are all part of the same species but rarely inter-breed.

[Tkinter1]

Truth, how does that link captialism with the cause of racism? All that article shows me is that ford was an anti-semite who collaborated with the nazi's, and bmw used slave labor.

[Anonymous]

I wasn't aware that capitalism existed 4,000 years ago in the Indus valley.

[truthaddict11]

well tkinter Ford and BMW being Capitalist and working with a openly racist and opressive regime does show something
plus the fact also how many companies also supported the apartied government in S.Africa

[Tkinter1]

"well tkinter Ford and BMW being Capitalist and working with a openly racist and opressive regime does show something"

Well it does show something, but it's not showing a link between capitalism and the cause of racism.

"plus the fact also how many companies also supported the apartied government in S.Africa"

That still doesn't show that capitalism causes racism.

All you have found are links between racist business owners and racism. You have not shown me that capitalism causes that racism.

[Anonymous]

Still trying to figure out how capitalism created the Indian caste system.

[j]

OK. Anyone who thinks capitalism CREATED racism is retarded.

People have brought up good points and people have brought up bad points.

You see, race is part of evolution and adaption. People adapted to their environment and through natural selection, excelled at areas that were necessary for survival (all animals do this). The reason there has not been much race mixing in the past few hundred years is because of travel and transportation. Until very recently (meaning since the beginning of man) blacks stayed in Africa for the most part and whites stayed in Europe. Not until the explorers and imperialism did any substantial travel occur. This is why anyone who claims that racial differences are somehow pre-concieved does not understand evolution.

The innate want for power has plagued history. The want for power has created oppression. Racism was created by those who thirsted for power to keep people oppressed. This thirst for power and its use of racism is very much a part of capitalism but it is not created out of capitalism. Capitalists have expertly used racism to increase capital but they did not create it.

We must break the stereotypes that create racism through unity and respect for diversity. We must unite as the proletariat to fight the greed of capitalism and establish a just society for all.

Totalitarian and others--ending racism can also occur through mutual understanding and respect for diversity. Any idiotic idea that we must all mix into one race or exterminate all but one race is just that, idiotic. This is one more reason that Stalin sucked.

Tkinter-While I agree with you about celebrating diversity you also mis-read Columbus' motivation. Columbus' religion allowed him to conquer the natives yes, but his religion was RACIST. Therefore his racist religion allowed him to commit atrocities in order to gain wealth.

j

[Tkinter1]

"Therefore his racist religion allowed him to commit atrocities in order to gain wealth."

I agree. That's why I stated his religion justified his actions.

"We must break the stereotypes that create racism through unity and respect for diversity. We must unite as the proletariat to fight the greed of capitalism and establish a just society for all."

If I could change one thing about this statement it would be unite as the human race. I also would like to say that I agree with you about fighting the greed that capitalism can bring. But does that necessarily require the complete abolition of capitalism? I have started my own business, but have no desire to be gluttonous and greedy. Why should I and people like me be fought for creating our own wealth justly?

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from j on 1:16 am on May 1, 2003
Totalitarian and others--ending racism can also occur through mutual understanding and respect for diversity. Any idiotic idea that we must all mix into one race or exterminate all but one race is just that, idiotic. This is one more reason that Stalin sucked.


For Communism truly to work, we need a creed based around the survival, evolution and advancement of the Human Race. We need to act as a single organism.

Like a body, the people according to their aptitude will organise into different limbs; a sort of fluid caste system.

Some of this specialisation might be racial. After all, races are the result of inbred genetic mutation. I agree that tolerance is needed, i also think all peoples including white should be able to have a homeland. Once racial unity is established, the closer we come to total human unity. Therefore racial awareness is something to be nourished in the right direction, which is Human racial awareness and striving as cells in a body to progress and evolve our potential as a race, which is written into our very blood.