USSR workers' control,Stalin,Kruschev

[Black Sheep]

If you support that the soviets were in control of the Soviet state, then how did it happen that by the time that Kruschev got in the GC's position (following Stalin's 'socialist' economic policy), USSR's policy started taking a reformist and opportunistic turn?

If it was worker-run,what,all the workers *POOF* got infected by the reformist virus all of a sudden?

[Q]

If you support that the soviets were in control of the Soviet state, then how did it happen that by the time that Kruschev got in the GC's position (following Stalin's 'socialist' economic policy), USSR's policy started taking a reformist and opportunistic turn?

If it was worker-run,what,all the workers *POOF* got infected by the reformist virus all of a sudden?

By the time of Kruchev workers control has already long been eliminated. Kruchev only reflected the bureaucratic opportunistic zigzags that are inherent to bonarpartistic regimes.

On the processes why the Soviet Union degenerated there have been a ton of discussions already. If you want to read a detailed analysis, I suggest you read The Revolution Betrayed (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/).

[Black Sheep]

I would really like to hear the opinion of pro-Stalin folks though.

[Revy]

Stalinists will usually call Khrushchev a "bourgeois traitor" or something like that. Even though workers had no control under Stalin so it was simply one of the elite passing up the top position to the next.

[Sprinkles]

I can't give you a Stalinist opinion on this matter but...

Workers Control is certainly an important subject, but it isn't limited to just the Workers Councils in the form of Soviets. Other factors like the disbanding of Factory Committees in favor of the Trade Unions and the subsequent absorption of the Trade Unions into the Party bureaucracy are also important to consider. Your observation that the lack of Workers Control can explain the failure of the Soviet Union is certainly true to an extent.

If you're interested in reading more about the subject "The Bolsheviks and Workers' Control - The State and Counter-Revolution" by Maurice Brinton discusses the subject extensively.

http://libcom.org/library/the-bolsheviks-and-workers-control-solidarity-group

[Black Sheep]

Isn't anyone who believes that the workers actually had power in the USSR!?

[World Anarchism]

Isn't anyone who believes that the workers actually had power in the USSR!?

I am not sure if even the Stalinists believe so.

Anyways it doesn't matter who believes what, it is a matter of having facts.

Some people believe that the Holocaust did not exist. Does it make it true because some neo-nazi remnants claim so?

My point is that you will always find some people believing fucked up shit, but you don't have to believe it just because they do.

In fact no proper argument can be made to prove that there was workers control in the Soviet Union under Stalin's era.

That is why the Stalinists resort to falsifications.

[zimmerwald1915]

Perhaps he wants to hear the falsifications. God knows why. Perhaps he believes they'd be educational, or perhaps he just came out of a bad breakup and needs a laugh.

[Valeofruin]

Perhaps he wants to hear the falsifications. God knows why. Perhaps he believes they'd be educational, or perhaps he just came out of a bad breakup and needs a laugh.

God save us, the opportunists are invading, real Marxists have become such a minority in recent days.

The workers didn't suddenly turn to opportunism, but rather the people they chose to represent them in Moscow did. It's called Soviet Democracy, it's a concept we can thank Lenin for, if any Trots have a problem with Lenins concept of a Republic, please speak out now. Reject Leninism, tell the truth, do us all a favour, save alot of time and hassle.

The working class of the Soviet Union gave Trotsky the boot decades ago, since then your idealology has been proven inferior by experience. Your Idealology is no less reactionary today then it was in the 1930's. Give up the ghost guys.

[Louis Pio]

The working class of the Soviet Union gave Trotsky the boot decades ago, since then your idealology has been proven inferior by experience.

Now that really is the pot calling the kettle black.
The reason why "real Marxists have become such a minority in recent days" (by real marxists I suppose you refer to stalinists, which we all know are ideologically more or less the same as menshevism), is that your politics have utterly failed. There's a few remnants here and there but nothing more. Your extinct, and let's thank Marx for that.
The honest workers and other people that at least was in some of those parties have realised that and are searching for answers on how we actually will change society, seeing that the ideology they used to look to proved totally impotent.

[Q]

God save us, the opportunists are invading, real Marxists have become such a minority in recent days.

The workers didn't suddenly turn to opportunism, but rather the people they chose to represent them in Moscow did. It's called Soviet Democracy, it's a concept we can thank Lenin for, if any Trots have a problem with Lenins concept of a Republic, please speak out now. Reject Leninism, tell the truth, do us all a favour, save alot of time and hassle.

The working class of the Soviet Union gave Trotsky the boot decades ago, since then your idealology has been proven inferior by experience. Your Idealology is no less reactionary today then it was in the 1930's. Give up the ghost guys.
FYI: Zimmerwald is actually a left-communist (if I'm not mistaken about the person that is). Secondly, lolstalinists. No need to repeat Teis.