Leftie views on jews

[C0YS]

okay, Im new to this fourm but am a young 16 year old leftie and still learning so do not pick on me for not using correct words ect. also I am dislexic so my spelling may be poor.

Anyway back to my point. I normally go to a spurs fourm in some of my free time (and some not so free time) and I have ingaged in an arguement on left wing views apon Jews. Yes I am aware that many of us are against the Israilie gov. policies (with good reasons) and of course the Zionists. But I do not belive we have, well the majoraty have any major anti-sematic policies/opinions. I would like to ask enlightenment on this issue, and offcourse any help to enlighten this certain poster on this fourm.

[Berianidze]

Jews, being far from oppressed, occupy a special place amongst the bourgeoisie. They yield control over several important elements in bourgeois society, and in the United States the Jewish/Israeli lobby is the most powerful PAC in the nation.

Those Jews amongst the proletariat (certainly not in America and questionably in Israel), who renounce their Judaism and Zionism, and accept their role as members of the proletariat - not as special segments of the population deserving of special treatment, are perfectly fine. Jews such as Lev Mekhlis and Lazar Kaganovich played important roles in the development of the Soviet Union.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

While some of the more rabid anti-Zionist lefties may descend into anti-Semitism, it's generally looked upon with disgust in the Left.

That's all there is to say really. Anti-Semitism is highly correlated with conspiracy kookyness, white supremacism, Islamic fundamentalism and various other brands of stupid and crazy that most sensible people wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

[Black Dagger]

Jews are adherents to judaism - laxed or observing who identify as 'jews'.

What else is there to say about 'jews'?

You mention 'zionism' but that is related to discussions on nationalism and is a political issue - not a 'view' about jewish people (who may or may not be or identify as 'zionist'). I really don't see the point of this thread, its very premise seems to beg anti-semitism - as jewish people themselves are not an 'issue' on the left in any meaningful sense - though prejudice against jewish people certainly is.

[black magick hustla]

It is true there is a disproportionate amount of jewish capitalists, but I think we can say the same thing about white capitalists. Berianidze you have very suspicious opinions. You dont think there are jewish proletarians in the US?

[Mujer Libre]

ews, being far from oppressed, occupy a special place amongst the bourgeoisie. They yield control over several important elements in bourgeois society,
Sounds a lot like anti-Semitic conspiracy bullshit to me...

As BD said, Zionism is a political issue and it makes sense to have an opinion on that as a whole,(the same goes for anti-semitism and similar issues) but to have on opinion on "the jews" will always be a gross and inaccurate generalisation, akin to talking about "the blacks" as if they're all the same. There is immense diversity in Jewish people around the world,(and within individual societies) and in they way these societies regard them. You know, much like every other group of people...

[Black Dagger]

Jews, being far from oppressed, occupy a special place amongst the bourgeoisie.

Right, so all jews are rich? Appeal to stereotypes much?

Please explain what you think the 'special place' of the jews in the bourgeoisie is.



They yield control over several important elements in bourgeois society

'They' being 'the jews' right? The 'jews control' society - rrrright.

You're implying that jews acts together in conspiracy to assert control over society - and fail to distinguish between individual actors - rather 'the jews' do this and that - that is racist homogenisation.

But please, how do 'the jews' control 'elements' of society? And what 'elements' are these?


and in the United States the Jewish/Israeli lobby is the most powerful PAC in the nation.

Again, this is based on what?

I obviously don't have as much super washington insider info like yourself - but i would have though that capital - that is, large defence technology firms, resource firms etc. - the biggest firms on the planet would be amongst the most powerful lobby groups. Because of their huge financial resources, the importance of their (ongoing) investment and their large (in money terms) interests which they need to protect. But hey, if you think it's 'the jews' how can i fault that wild assertion?


Those Jews amongst the proletariat (certainly not in America and questionably in Israel)

So all jews in the US and probably Israel are bourgeois? Wow - i'm sure that will come as a shock to a lot of jewish workers.


who renounce their Judaism and Zionism, and accept their role as members of the proletariat - not as special segments of the population deserving of special treatment, are perfectly fine.

'Their Zionism'?

Your whole post is filled with gross caricatures - all jews are 'zionists', 'bourgeois', obsessed with their own exceptionalism etc.

[jake williams]

It's not a sensibly framed question, and as it is I think as has been mentioned it implicitly accepts anti-semitic assumptions. There are several things we could talk about regarding "Jews". We could talk about the Jewish religion, and really I doubt very many people here would have much good to say about it, but that's not what you're asking. You can talk about Zionism, and the same sort of goes, it's been a very ugly nationalism (although it's not exactly in cheery company). We could talk about secular Jewish culture, which has evolved over time and been a lot of different things and different places, so it's hard to talk about. But it's also a fairly narrow question just because you could ask the same question about thousands of cultures, you could ask about Kurds or Xhosas or Uighurs. You could ask about all people with a Jewish ethnicity, everyone who self-identifies say, and you might find some common traits and you mind find the group as a whole to exhibit some interesting features relative to the rest of the population, or you might not without accepting some otherwise invalid assumptions. And either way it would be a strange approach, with a lot of complexities, and you'd have to make very clear what you'd like to do. There is also the historical presence of anti-semitism and conspiracy theories which always ugly the process.

[Mujer Libre]

It's not a sensibly framed question, and as it is I think as has been mentioned it implicitly accepts anti-semitic assumptions. There are several things we could talk about regarding "Jews". We could talk about the Jewish religion, and really I doubt very many people here would have much good to say about it, but that's not what you're asking. You can talk about Zionism, and the same sort of goes, it's been a very ugly nationalism (although it's not exactly in cheery company). We could talk about secular Jewish culture, which has evolved over time and been a lot of different things and different places, so it's hard to talk about. But it's also a fairly narrow question just because you could ask the same question about thousands of cultures, you could ask about Kurds or Xhosas or Uighurs. You could ask about all people with a Jewish ethnicity, everyone who self-identifies say, and you might find some common traits and you mind find the group as a whole to exhibit some interesting features relative to the rest of the population, or you might not without accepting some otherwise invalid assumptions. And either way it would be a strange approach, with a lot of complexities, and you'd have to make very clear what you'd like to do. There is also the historical presence of anti-semitism and conspiracy theories which always ugly the process.

Good point.

Asking "What is your view on x" implies that responses will be one of two flavours:

"X is bad"


or

"X is good,"

both of which are obviously ridiculously reductionist when we're talking about a group of people- especially when the identifying term used "jews" is a contested, murky term.

Are we talking about religion? Culture? Israel? Not to mention all the weird preconceptions of and prejudices against Jewishness that are out there...

[bcbm]

Chomsky does a nice job demolishing the myth of the "all-powerful Jewish lobby" here (http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/4134).

[#FF0000]

The Left is a-okay with Jewish people. Might not be fans of Israel, but not because it is Jewish.

In fact a good number of leftists, as I understand it, had some Jewish background.

[progressive_lefty]

There is no view on Jews. Thoughts on the Israeli occupation of Gaza and West Bank, and the extreme right-wing support for Israel with-in Western democracies, is separate to the entire Jewish community. There is no link.

[Revy]

Jews, being far from oppressed, occupy a special place amongst the bourgeoisie. They yield control over several important elements in bourgeois society, and in the United States the Jewish/Israeli lobby is the most powerful PAC in the nation.

Those Jews amongst the proletariat (certainly not in America and questionably in Israel), who renounce their Judaism and Zionism, and accept their role as members of the proletariat - not as special segments of the population deserving of special treatment, are perfectly fine. Jews such as Lev Mekhlis and Lazar Kaganovich played important roles in the development of the Soviet Union.

Renounce their Judaism? :confused:

[S&Y]

Leftist views on Jews should be how leftists view the rest of the people.

We should not discriminate against any race/religion etc.
We dont want to divert nor divide the workers movement.

Any bigotry should not be tolerated within the ranks of the revolutionary left.

We are not nazis nor white-supremacists.

Now as about the claim that "Jews have money etc" even if that was true we are willing to attack all capitalists disregarding race etc.

What good does it do to the movement when people talk like that?

On the contrary it drives Jewish workers off the ranks of the revolutionary left...

But because it is not true it is insane to make claims like that.

[JimmyJazz]

Only anti-semites and religious nutters from the Big 3 religions have a specific "view on Jews". To leftists, they're just people.

[jake williams]

Only anti-semites and religious nutters from the Big 3 religions have a specific "view on Jews". To leftists, they're just people.
Another other issue which should have been mentioned is that "leftist" is a very broad category. The only way "leftist" could have a specific "view on Jews" would be not only that Jews were a simple, homogenous group, but that leftists were to some extent as well. Insofar as "leftists" actually have any common characteristics, it has something to do with fighting oppression, specifically class oppression, especially around here. Therefore, for "Jews" to be an "issue" for leftists, Jews would have to have a solid and specific relationship to class-based oppression, and they don't.

That said, I am a "leftist", and I also have some general beliefs about Jewish individuals, cultural elements, organizations, etc. This fact is not specific to Jews or Jewishness, but there are certainly some things which are specific to Jews, albeit only if you frame things in very general terms. It just means you have people and some general common elements and activities and so on, which you might call a culture, and that's different in certain ways than others, and so it's not outside of the domain of analysis or immune from criticism. It's just that this sort of discourse doesn't seem to be what the OP is talking about.

[Chapaev]

Similar to other groups such as the Chinese population of Indonesia and the Parsis of Bombay, the Jewish population as a whole in some western countries is a priveleged popualtion that owns a disproportionate amount of wealth. Historically, European Jews predominantly worked in commerce and banking and as artisans. Proletarian Jews had always been a minority and there were virtually no Jews in the countryside.

It is abundantly clear that biggotry and hatred permeates parts of the Jewish community in the United States. Disturbances in places like Crown Heights instigated by extremist Jews against African-Americans demonstrates that there is a serious problem of racism in the Jewish community. Jewish extremists are similarly guilty of spreading of fanning anti-Muslim biggotry. To a large extent, Islamophobic sentiment in the United States is a byproduct of Zionism and racism in the Jewish community.

At the same time, communists condemn and combat manifestations of anti-Semitism and stand in solidarity with Jewish toilers around the world. It was Lenin who taught that Jews are not the enemies of working people. Rather, the enemies of workers are the capitalists of all countries. Jews are our brothers who are oppressed by capital. Among the Jews there are exploiters just as there are among people of all nations. Rich Jews, like rich people of other nations, are in alliance to oppress and crush the workers.

Jews, being far from oppressed, occupy a special place amongst the bourgeoisie.

While of course Jews are not an oppressed group, they hardly occupy a "special" place among the bourgeoisie. The economic status of Jews is comparable to minorities in other countries. The Parsis in India control more than 15 percent of market capitalization on India's main stock exchange, but account for .00007 percent of the country's billion people. The Chinese of Indonesia are about 3 percent of the population and own 80 percent of the country's wealth. Your remarks serve only to fuel anti-Semitism and compromise the revolutionary movement.



Those Jews amongst the proletariat (certainly not in America and questionably in Israel), who renounce their Judaism and Zionism
To demand Jews to renounce their "Judaism" is outrageous. To presume that all Jews subscribe to Zionism is anti-Semitic slander. There are many Jews conscious of their identity allied with the global national liberation movement such as Neturei Karta that strongly condemn Zionism. To demand our Jewish comrades to renounce their identity borders towards genocidal incitement.

[Pogue]

Jews are an ethnicity/'race' (but I don't like that word), a people with a shared ancestory/cultural heritage, or just anyone who is a believer in and/or practioneer of the religion of Judaism. How can I have an 'opinion' on Jews?

[C0YS]

Jews are an ethnicity/'race' (but I don't like that word), a people with a shared ancestory/cultural heritage, or just anyone who is a believer in and/or practioneer of the religion of Judaism. How can I have an 'opinion' on Jews?

that was what I was looking for thanks.

[Dean]

okay, Im new to this fourm but am a young 16 year old leftie and still learning so do not pick on me for not using correct words ect. also I am dislexic so my spelling may be poor.

Anyway back to my point. I normally go to a spurs fourm in some of my free time (and some not so free time) and I have ingaged in an arguement on left wing views apon Jews. Yes I am aware that many of us are against the Israilie gov. policies (with good reasons) and of course the Zionists. But I do not belive we have, well the majoraty have any major anti-sematic policies/opinions. I would like to ask enlightenment on this issue, and offcourse any help to enlighten this certain poster on this fourm.

Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Further, Zionism is not an intrinsically violent or nationalist ideology. As leftists, we only oppose the zionists who believe that land should be taken from the palestinians due to racial or ethnic superiority or "god-given rights."

[Faux Real]

Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Further, Zionism is not an intrinsically violent or nationalist ideology. As leftists, we only oppose the zionists who believe that land should be taken from the palestinians due to racial or ethnic superiority or "god-given rights."How isn't it nationalist?

[Pia Fidelis]

How isn't it nationalist?

Interested to know the same thing...

[Demogorgon]

How isn't it nationalist?

Prior to modern zionism, there was a strong anti-nationalist element in zionism. The creation of the State Of Israel obviously eclipsed it somewhat.

[Comrade Stern]

its definitely nationalist i know this from experience being i advocated once upon a time in zionism and have extremely zionist parents and friends...they are for sure nationalistlic about their state of israel and zionism is all based upon making a jewish homeland... which in itself is nationalistic... ive been to israel many times my sister lives there and ive known many of the meir kahane types... i used to discuss many a time about kicking all the arabs out of israel and establishing a theocracy and how to achieve that... the point is its currently very nationalistic in my opinion

[Yehuda Stern]

Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing.

True.


Further, Zionism is not an intrinsically violent or nationalist ideology.

False. How is Zionism not intrinsically violent or nationalist? Do you know a single Aliyah that did not exploit and seek to expel the native Palestinians? Do you know a single Zionist current that did not either support the muscling out of Palestinian workers out of all industries or wanted to exploit their cheap labor? Do you know a single Zionist current that opposed the violent way in which Israel was set up? Was there ever a single meaningful Zionist group which opposed any war by Israel before 1982? Was there any protest by Zionist groups against the war on Lebanon before 1982 before Israel started losing? Was there any Zionist group of meaningful size which supported ending the occupation or setting up a Palestinian state before the first initifadah?

I can go on and on, or you can study history and stop making baseless claims that only serve repressive, murderous, brutal Zionism. I must say I'm fucking appalled that this is what passes for 'left' in this day and age.


As leftists, we only oppose the zionists who believe that land should be taken from the palestinians due to racial or ethnic superiority or "god-given rights."

Speak for yourself:

1. Zionists who do not advocate the above have something in common with fairies and demons: all only exist in fairy tales.
2. I would not support a Zionist who would not want to expel Palestinians, either. I would not support any nationalistic or colonialist group, no matter what liberal veneer it tries to give itself.


Prior to modern zionism, there was a strong anti-nationalist element in zionism.

Please, enlighten me. What element was that? Where did it express itself?