If Obama...

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I think a safe statement would be that Obama is going to win the election. That said, I'm immensely interested in seeing just how the government is going to pull up and fix all the shit that has been collecting these past 8 years. I mean, damn. I haven't seen people this pissed since 9/11, and this frustrated since Gore v Bush. We're going through an economic situation the harks back the Great Depression, a war like Vietnam, and levels of bureaucracy that make "change" pretty hallow. The major parties have a scar ripped open, and the banking sector et al is exposed for the filth that it is. The fiscal conservatives are about to rebel out of the GOP.

Good fucking luck! :laugh:

[Bud Struggle]

Wanna know what's going to happen? Nothing. Obama's going to pull out of Iraq, it's over already. It just shows you how important it is that when a real issue comes us--it fades away from the headlines.

We're going to have a Recession, but it should be over pretty quickly--they're be a pretty good level of optimism in Obama and that more than anything will get us out of that mess. The major parties ALWAYS have a scar ripped open and they always heal for the next election. And the commercial banks were really foils in this whole scene (the problem was the investment banks) just as the savings and loans were the foil of the investment banks in the eighties.

They'll recover--where else are people going to put their money? As soon as the credit institutions start lending things will slowly get back to normal.

This is just how America works. It's not like there's any other (serious) choices out there.

[Dean]

Too bad Obama voted for the bailout.

He would like to start wars with various nations, and inflame the ones 'we' are in now.

Fuck him, it will be the same xenophobic filth and I am totally disinterested in it.

[IcarusAngel]

Hopefully, there will be a reemegence of Democracy, which curbs capitalist tyranny and increases the living standards of the working class, like what happened under FDR.

Chomsky has an interesting piece from the Irish times, published at commondreams.org as well:

Anti-Democratic Nature of Capitalied (failed system) being exposed:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/10-4

The initial Bush proposals to deal with the crisis so reeked of totalitarianism that they were quickly modified. Under intense lobbyist pressure, they were reshaped as "a clear win for the largest institutions in the system . . . a way of dumping assets without having to fail or close", as described by James Rickards, who negotiated the federal bailout for the hedge fund Long Term Capital Management in 1998, reminding us that we are treading familiar turf. The immediate origins of the current meltdown lie in the collapse of the housing bubble supervised by Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, which sustained the struggling economy through the Bush years by debt-based consumer spending along with borrowing from abroad. But the roots are deeper. In part they lie in the triumph of financial liberalisation in the past 30 years - that is, freeing the markets as much as possible from government regulation.

These were free-market liberalizations that caused the failures.


Such interventionism is a regular feature of state capitalism, though the scale today is unusual. A study by international economists Winfried Ruigrok and Rob van Tulder 15 years ago found that at least 20 companies in the Fortune 100 would not have survived if they had not been saved by their respective governments, and that many of the rest gained substantially by demanding that governments "socialise their losses," as in today's taxpayer-financed bailout. Such government intervention "has been the rule rather than the exception over the past two centuries", they conclude.

Government intervention is often employed in order to save failed conservative, market-oriented policies on the backs of the tax payers.


The task of financial institutions is to take risks and, if well-managed, to ensure that potential losses to themselves will be covered. The emphasis is on "to themselves". Under state capitalist rules, it is not their business to consider the cost to others - the "externalities" of decent survival - if their practices lead to financial crisis, as they regularly do.

Capitalist "externalities" -- their force and damage against individuals -- are ignored by capitalistic ideologues.


The Great Depression and the war had aroused powerful radical democratic currents, ranging from the anti-fascist resistance to working class organisation. These pressures made it necessary to permit social democratic policies. The Bretton Woods system was designed in part to create a space for government action responding to public will - for some measure of democracy.
...
But with the radicalisation of the general public during the Great Depression and the anti-fascist war, that luxury was no longer available to private power and wealth. Hence in the Bretton Woods system, "limits on capital mobility substituted for limits on democracy as a source of insulation from market pressures".

When Democracy increases, market forces and private tyrannies are decreased.


John Maynard Keynes, the British negotiator, considered the most important achievement of Bretton Woods to be the establishment of the right of governments to restrict capital movement.

Founder of modern economics held anti-capitalist sentiments.

Lots of wisdom from Chomsky and those scholars alone in that article.


The United States effectively has a one-party system, the business party, with two factions, Republicans and Democrats. There are differences between them. In his study Unequal Democracy: The Political Economy of the New Gilded Age, Larry Bartels shows that during the past six decades "real incomes of middle-class families have grown twice as fast under Democrats as they have under Republicans, while the real incomes of working-poor families have grown six times as fast under Democrats as they have under Republicans".


Democrats better than Republicans for families like mine:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/10-4

[Dust Bunnies]

Maybe Ralph Nader will pull a miracle win.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

First, thank God we passed that bailout. Hopefully, the ideas being swapped this weekend in Washington will go a long ways towards a coodinated response for shaking us out of the credit crunch.

I firmly believe that everything being done now, however, will be nothing compared to the optimism Obama will bring to the White House, and the psychological effect this will have on the American people.

As for the GOP, hopefully McCain will lose so badly that a true rift can emerge between the pillars of the conservative coalition. Pretty much every true fiscal conservative I know isn't going to vote, especially after John McCain's conduct this summer. Many strong supporters of anti-illegal immigration measures will probably vote McCain, though there enthusiasm is extremely low and with McCain going of the deep-end, many may not bother. Palin goes a long way towards the back-water evangelical vote, but the superficiality she employs is now alienating her from the moderates the Republians need. If anything, I hope Bob Barr does well (perhaps breaking 4, maybe even 5% in a state of two) and the conservative movment has to go off into the wilderness and find themselves again, as paraphrasing William F Buckley.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

First, thank God we passed that bailout. Hopefully, the ideas being swapped this weekend in Washington will go a long ways towards a coodinated response for shaking us out of the credit crunch.

I firmly believe that everything being done now, however, will be nothing compared to the optimism Obama will bring to the White House, and the psychological effect this will have on the American people.

As for the GOP, hopefully McCain will lose so badly that a true rift can emerge between the pillars of the conservative coalition. Pretty much every true fiscal conservative I know isn't going to vote, especially after John McCain's conduct this summer. Many strong supporters of anti-illegal immigration measures will probably vote McCain, though there enthusiasm is extremely low and with McCain going of the deep-end, many may not bother. Palin goes a long way towards the back-water evangelical vote, but the superficiality she employs is now alienating her from the moderates the Republians need. If anything, I hope Bob Barr does well (perhaps breaking 4, maybe even 5% in a state of two) and the conservative movment has to go off into the wilderness and find themselves again, as paraphrasing William F Buckley.

Do you see the Libertarian Party strengthening after 2008? I think it's up in the air. If fiscal conservatives do ditch the GOP, I think we could see a pretty decent-sized third party. "Goldwater Republicans" voting for McCain are loons, though. Reversely, Bob Barr's nomination has driven a lot of middle and left-libertarians out of the LP.

I think, except for neo-cons, the conservative coalition is just holding its nose for this election at the prospect of Obama winning. Religious conservatives are severely disappointed; fiscal conservatives are crying over their wallets; and right-centralists are fed up with Bush just as much as anyone else.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I wonder how many Obama voters she won over? :laugh:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2924795580_0f585a8fe7.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/2914474850_ba771fd120.jpg

[Bud Struggle]

Imagine if you had people that enthusiastic about Communism. :lol:

[Incendiarism]

that girl is really adorable

[Die Neue Zeit]

If fiscal conservatives do ditch the GOP, I think we could see a pretty decent-sized third party. "Goldwater Republicans" voting for McCain are loons, though. Reversely, Bob Barr's nomination has driven a lot of middle and left-libertarians out of the LP.

I think, except for neo-cons, the conservative coalition is just holding its nose for this election at the prospect of Obama winning. Religious conservatives are severely disappointed; fiscal conservatives are crying over their wallets; and right-centralists are fed up with Bush just as much as anyone else.
[/FONT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it most fiscal conservatives in the GOP are "middle libertarians" on social issues, no?

As for the neo-cons, methinks they've shifted to the 'Rat party, considering Obama's foreign policy "aggressiveness."

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it most fiscal conservatives in the GOP are "middle libertarians" on social issues, no?


Probably. I haven't met too many self-proclaimed libertarians who are pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, and pro-immigration, unless they quantify themselves as "left-libertarians."

[Bud Struggle]

that girl is really adorable

Well, (s)he's got my vote!:thumbup::lol:

[JimmyJazz]

First, thank God we passed that bailout.

Yes, thank God! I was in such suspense!


that girl is really adorable

Nose studs: not a hint that she might be really cool, a guaran-fucking-tee

[Dust Bunnies]

Imagine if you had people that enthusiastic about Communism. :lol:

We would be very lucky.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Do you see the Libertarian Party strengthening after 2008? I think it's up in the air. If fiscal conservatives do ditch the GOP, I think we could see a pretty decent-sized third party. "Goldwater Republicans" voting for McCain are loons, though. Reversely, Bob Barr's nomination has driven a lot of middle and left-libertarians out of the LP.

I had hope in Ron Paul to do just that, but it seems to have faded. I will say, however, that a lot of Republicans are very disappointed with what they believe is the betrayal of the party platform by it's leaders.


I think, except for neo-cons, the conservative coalition is just holding its nose for this election at the prospect of Obama winning. Religious conservatives are severely disappointed; fiscal conservatives are crying over their wallets; and right-centralists are fed up with Bush just as much as anyone else.

Very true.

Trust me, if Obama ends the war, the economy does a 180, and gas is $1/gallon again....Gay Marriage/Abortion/Euthanasia/Some other bullshit will be a big issue again, just as it was in 2004. That's why, personally, I'm pretty happy with what the crises have done: forced this election to be about more than the social freedoms we've been arguing about for decades. 30% of voters in Ohio in 2004 said that "Moral Issues" were the major driving force in deciding their vote. If nothing else, I can gurantee that will not be the case this time around.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it most fiscal conservatives in the GOP are "middle libertarians" on social issues, no?

It depends. A common bumper sticker among them is "Libertarian = Pro-Choice on Everything"


As for the neo-cons, methinks they've shifted to the 'Rat party, considering Obama's foreign policy "aggressiveness."

Doubt it. If Obama is aggressive, John McCain is psycopathically so.

And neocons have a thing for psycopaths...

[Dust Bunnies]

And neocons have a thing for psycopaths...

I know! Just look at Bush. ;)

[RGacky3]

That picture personifies American politics, and really culture in general. Which is awesome, in my opinion, politics are a joke, unfortunately that chick is'nt joking. Tits and freedom.

[IcarusAngel]

American Libertarians are some of the worst candidates out there, even worse than McCain on everything. They're not pro-choice on everything - in capitalism there is no choice. They're pro-free-market fascism on everything.

Read Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen Here" for an example of a fascist who spins leftist like rhetoric into something positive for the free-market. It's corporate fascism.

[IcarusAngel]

Yes, thank God! I was in such suspense!



Well, I don't think "thank god" for the bail out or the fact that the economy might be reversing its way into the depression, but you have to understand that in a right-wing country like America, a complete collapse might lead to fascism as it has in many other countries, including some in Latin America (although in this case it was mostly because of Reagan etc).

People like the ThecultofAbleLincoln would turn this country into a fascist country in a second if they thought it meant allowing the corporations the freedom to enslave the masses, like what libertarians advocate. Capitalists and conservatives have done this before in America - i.e., the business plot to overthrow FDR. Thankfully they were stopped.

Thus leftists have to keep an eye on these reactionaries and make sure politics doesn't go in their favor.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, I don't think "thank god" for the bail out or the fact that the economy might be reversing its way into the depression, but you have to understand that in a right-wing country like America, a complete collapse might lead to fascism as it has in many other countries, including some in Latin America (although in this case it was mostly because of Reagan etc).

Yea, yea, yea, IA. The Dow is up 936 points today--the biggest gain ever, I think. No Revolution. No fall of the Capitalism. No people's revolt. Just business as usual tomorrow.

Sorry to get you hopes up.

Maybe next time. :lol:

[Sendo]

obama's pulling out of iraq is moving them to Pakistan and then filling the hole with Blackwater mercs.


Oh, and by the way, can we thumbnail the borderline nudity? That wasn't work-safe!!!

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Yea, yea, yea, IA. The Dow is up 936 points today--the biggest gain ever, I think. No Revolution. No fall of the Capitalism. No people's revolt. Just business as usual tomorrow.

Sorry to get you hopes up.

Maybe next time. :lol:

I don't think anyone was expecting a revolution anytime soon, outside of Ron Paul fanatics. If this growth continues, all it's going to do is discredit a major segment of the Austrian school. They've been jumping on the "Depression" bandwagon for years. It hasn't happened in 70 years since going off the gold standard, so they're desperate to prove themselves right.

[GPDP]

I thought we went off the gold standard in the 70's?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I know! Just look at Bush. ;)

I'd say Cheney. Bush is just a dumbass.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Well, I don't think "thank god" for the bail out or the fact that the economy might be reversing its way into the depression, but you have to understand that in a right-wing country like America, a complete collapse might lead to fascism as it has in many other countries, including some in Latin America (although in this case it was mostly because of Reagan etc).

Yes yes it's all America's fault, not the Latin Americans.



People like the ThecultofAbleLincoln would turn this country into a fascist country in a second if they thought it meant allowing the corporations the freedom to enslave the masses, like what libertarians advocate. Capitalists and conservatives have done this before in America - i.e., the business plot to overthrow FDR. Thankfully they were stopped.


God, spare me the bullshit.

Newsflash: FDR was incredibly closer to Hitler than Stalin.


Thus leftists have to keep an eye on these reactionaries and make sure politics doesn't go in their favor.

And, just out of curiosity, if it does go in favor of these 'reactionaries' what are you going to do? Switch to a soy milk latte to protest?

Piece of shit pinko calling me a fasicist.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't think anyone was expecting a revolution anytime soon, outside of Ron Paul fanatics. If this growth continues, all it's going to do is discredit a major segment of the Austrian school. They've been jumping on the "Depression" bandwagon for years. It hasn't happened in 70 years since going off the gold standard, so they're desperate to prove themselves right.

Personally, I don't think it at bottom yet. I think the market's going to fall to the 7000 range. This might be a good time to get out and go to T-Bills. I also thing there's going to be one woop-ass Recession next year.

There's still a lot of debt out there that need to hit the fan. Lots of student loans and houses that haven't begun to see the light of day.

Actually, the government incerting funds into the economy would have been better spent when he economy was starting to pull out of the Recession than now.

But politics is politics.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Personally, I don't think it at bottom yet. I think the market's going to fall to the 7000 range. This might be a good time to get out and go to T-Bills. I also thing there's going to be one woop-ass Recession next year.

There's still a lot of debt out there that need to hit the fan. Lots of student loans and houses that haven't begun to see the light of day.

Actually, the government incerting funds into the economy would have been better spent when he economy was starting to pull out of the Recession than now.

But politics is politics.

This may be the begining of a time when Americans have to live within their means. Scary thought...

I wish a had a billion. You could own sooooooooooooooooo much with all these panicking sheep it'd be crazy.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I thought we went off the gold standard in the 70's?

For the definite purposes, yeah. But we went off it regularly before then when gold became inconvenient - namely the '30s and '70s. I think we also went off it during the '50s for a time.

[Bud Struggle]

This may be the begining of a time when Americans have to live within their means. Scary thought...

I wish a had a billion. You could own sooooooooooooooooo much with all these panicking sheep it'd be crazy.That's how the last Depression played out. When the bottom fell out of Wall Street America was owned by about 1000 men. The government passed laws and freed up all their money--and these guys were law abiding people and they obeyed. But for a moment a couple on years there the country was owned lock, stock and barrel.

[RGacky3]

Yes yes it's all America's fault, not the Latin Americans.

Well its kind of like this, who's fault is it, the street gang member that terrorizes his neighborhood? Or the organized crime member that supplies the weapons, the basic instructions, collects dues, and keeps control over his underlings.

I'd say a little of both, but generally people would put more blame on the top dog rather than the pawn.


This may be the begining of a time when Americans have to live within their means. Scary thought...

There goes small businesses and innovation, its not just people buying stuff they don't need. Its people starting businesses and funding new projects, I'm guessing that those loans are a big chunk of it.


For the definite purposes, yeah. But we went off it regularly before then when gold became inconvenient - namely the '30s and '70s. I think we also went off it during the '50s for a time.

That ultimately was the end of true Capitalism. Since then Capitalism has pretty much been like a rechargable battery, it can only last so long, and you can only recharge it so many times.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Well its kind of like this, who's fault is it, the street gang member that terrorizes his neighborhood? Or the organized crime member that supplies the weapons, the basic instructions, collects dues, and keeps control over his underlings.

I'd say a little of both, but generally people would put more blame on the top dog rather than the pawn.

And I can show you gangs run by leftists and the CIA.



There goes small businesses and innovation, its not just people buying stuff they don't need. Its people starting businesses and funding new projects, I'm guessing that those loans are a big chunk of it.


Of course loans are a big part of it...but let me rephrase. "Americans are going to have to live closer to their means. No more $300,000 motgages with pennies down."


That ultimately was the end of true Capitalism. Since then Capitalism has pretty much been like a rechargable battery, it can only last so long, and you can only recharge it so many times.

:rolleyes:

Right....we've been hearing this since when, the Panic of 1897?

[redSHARP]

Yea, yea, yea, IA. The Dow is up 936 points today--the biggest gain ever, I think. No Revolution. No fall of the Capitalism. No people's revolt. Just business as usual tomorrow.

Sorry to get you hopes up.

Maybe next time. :lol:



well actually the great depression had huge gains. but the gains would crash in days. the "depression scare" is not over just yet.

[AFA_Sab]

That picture personifies American politics, and really culture in general. Which is awesome, in my opinion, politics are a joke, unfortunately that chick is'nt joking. Tits and freedom.

Well maybe it does personify the US culture but I can't see them doing that up in Alaska! I mean imagine, we'd already have a picture somewhere of Palin wearing 'NIXON FOR '68' on her pair! :lol:

Yeal, gimme Tits and freedom anytime, runs rings around any other -ism I know. ;)