The Police.

[Anonymous]

Question: Would you commies consider police officers "working class"? And if not, what part would they play in the "revolution" since they're obviously not bourgeois.

[Pete]

They are like the army, I'd guess. They would be expected by the government to quell uprisings, strikes (which are more likely in industrial nations) or whatever turned up. If they defected to the side of the revolution then they would help us, if not they would hinder us.

[synthesis]

For the most part, I think the word 'traitor' adequately suffices.

[RedCeltic]

Remember the Battleship Potemkin! There is always a chance the Police will start the revolution... OK that's pretty far fetched but you never know.. :)


In the IWW, we don't allow Police officers to be members. However, It's a given belief that they are workers and we would fight for their rights as anyone else, even if we don't admit them in our brotherhood (and sisterhood) as FW's.. (Fellow Workers)

[suffianr]

In the Malayan Insurgency (1948-1960), the communist party's views on the police and the military were somewhat less benevolent.

Anjing Kerajaan (The government's dogs) was the official party sentiment.

[Sirion]

The police forces are a wildcard. In a revolution, they may join with any side, or will most likely be splitted (high-rankers are probably more likely to be pro-bourgeois than low ranks)

[Invader Zim]

Leaving aside any feelings of the military etc or past threads, i do not see the police in a bad light, admmitedly they would be against a revolution, however according to Henri de Saint-Simon (for those who dont know, Saint-Simon was an early socialist philiosipher, of the 19th century), to achive socialism there is no need for a revolution any way. However weather you like them or not you do need them in any organised socioty. Even in a socialist socioty you still get greedy capitalist criminals out for more than there fair share. As i see it a police force is necessary to any successful nation, capitalist or otherwise.

[Goldfinger]

I'd concider them middle or working class, and I don't think they shoud be treated any differently that everyone else, since they're nothing but ordinairy humans. When they get brutal, I blame the human nature of thinking that an act is right just because "every other cop is doing it," or some leader told them to do it.

[redstar2000]

The "blue culture" of the police is essentially a fascist culture.

What are the "virtues" of the police, the measure of human "merit"?

1. Physical courage.

2. Solidarity even unto death with other police in the face of any external threat.

3. Sadistic brutality towards women, children, and anyone physically weaker or incapable of resistance.

4. Racism.

5. Official Homophobia.

6. Total contempt for all who are not police.

7. Rampant corruption.

8. And most important of all: obedience to authority.

This is the "blue culture" in general. It's not to say that every single cop is a rabid fascist turd...at least not in the beginning. A new cop may be, and most likely is predisposed to be comfortable in this environment...but he still has to learn the details of expected behavior and opinion.

There are always naive people who join the police force to "help people" (stop laughing, I'm serious). Within two or three years they quit...often getting a transfer to the fire department.

It's always difficult to predict out things will "play out" in revolutionary circumstances. Most likely, cops will be a large part of the initial wave of exiles/refugees from any country with a socialist revolution...this was the case with Cuba, for example. The ones that fail to escape immediately will probably be tried for crimes against humanity and, if convicted, executed.

Under no circumstances should an ex-cop be allowed to become involved in "law enforcement" in a post-revolutionary era. That would just be asking for grief.

As to class origins, most police have traditionally been recruited from "upwardly mobile" working class families. In Marxist terms, they are conscious traitors to the working class.

The nature of "law enforcement" in post-revolutionary societies is really a discussion for a different thread (there have been some--use the Google search at the bottom of the page to search this site).

It's interesting to note that when Hitler took power in Germany, fully one-third of the Berlin Police Department was fired/retired. That means, of course, that two-thirds of that city's cops had no problems with Nazism at all.

It's probably even worse in America now.

:cool:

[Xvall]

I disagree with Redstar because while a lot of police officers that I have run into are racist; racism and brutality are most certainly not on their agenda; despite how common it may be.

Question: Would you commies consider police officers "working class"? And if not, what part would they play in the "revolution" since they're obviously not bourgeois.

I consider most police officers to be working class because for the most part, they are just normal people who take orders. Indeed I have run across many police officers who are jerks; but I could easilly run into jerky plumbers, jerky pizza delivery men, and jerky garbage men. The only diffirence is that policemen jerks are far more dangerous than plumber jerks. I may disagree with what a lot of Law Enforcement stands for, but they do protect people from criminals and murdurers, and I have respect for that.

[Guest1]

Jerky pizza delivery boys are not consciously participating in the subjugation of the people. Institutionalized racism and homophobia are rampant throughout police forces in north america, they are just part of a policy to systematically humiliate and demoralize the working class, especially visible minorities, to prevent them from even thinking they can have any power. Power to rise and smash the state. Don't be naive. The police, at least higher ranking officers, are no more innocent than George Bush himself.

[Iron Star]

No. The police are tools of the bougeois. They are nothing but traitors to the working class and should be dealt with as traitors to any just cause are dealt with. I suppose if a few wanted to join that would be OK. But otherwise, they should be treated just as their masters.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Iron Star on 7:56 am on April 20, 2003
No. The police are tools of the bougeois. They are nothing but traitors to the working class and should be dealt with as traitors to any just cause are dealt with. I suppose if a few wanted to join that would be OK. But otherwise, they should be treated just as their masters.

Ohh yes lets create another Auschwitz, just for the cops.

As i have pointed out, in any socioty, capitalist, socialist, even bloody pagan, you still need some form of police force just to stop petty crime, as there are always criminals out for more than there fair share. With out the police how do you stop them?

Only a complete fool would say that they are just a tool of the bourgeoisie. That is part of there job, yes to stop rioters etc, however as this Iraq episode has shown you need police, just look what happened there with out them.

[redstar2000]

"Only a complete fool would say that [the police] are just a tool of the bourgeoisie." -- AK47

What else would they be in a bourgeois society?

We're not talking about "police" in the abstract but police as they exist, here and now, in capitalist society.

What "police" would be like under communism is a different topic.

As to Iraq, I think it's quite revealing that the ex-cops under the infamous Hussein are eager to serve the new colonial rulers...they know better than you, AK47, how little things are going to change.

:cool:

[Sabocat]

One doesn't really need to look too far back in history to see what the police represent in the U$.

In the 20's and 30's police were used to harass and beat strikers, escort scabs across picket lines, and in general act as a security force for corporations. A tradition that carries on to present day. The police have repeatedly shown no affiliation to the working class.

Even though police in the U$ are unionized, they really share nothing in common with the general laborer.

Police represent the enemy to revolution.

[Guest1]

Anyone heard of COINTELPRO? Perfect example of how completely apolitical police forces are.

http://www.derechos.net/paulwolf/cointelpr...pro/cointel.htm (http://www.derechos.net/paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:43 am on April 21, 2003


What "police" would be like under communism is a different topic.

:cool:


when looking at history, you can see that the police in a communist socioty are generly a whole lot worse, "tools" of dictatorships and repression rather than just petty capitalism.

However i accept that no country as of yet has achived complete communism, so i am being unfair.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 5:27 am on April 19, 2003
For the most part, I think the word 'traitor' adequately suffices.


100%

When being the good hearted TV show cop, hill street blues or the generic I do only what is moral movie cop, those are great. Where they don't care if it is a person or a corporation, they just do what is right. Those fictational police officers are great, but they really don't exist.

Police have been a tool for the corporations and the people in power more than for the people. They have broken, beaten and harressed union strikers, failed to protect the correct people and seldom care to lie to get the job done.

They are in many parts of the country a legal mob. Able to carry out measures legally, where there is little for them to answer to for their actions. Small towns and Rural areas being famous for these actions. There is a book from a police officer right now on common practices performed by police officers. Putting tacks in there hands and giving shake downs on people to make them jump so they can beat them.

I have personally been ran out of town by police officers in my hometown. Because my family was known to be trouble makers, I was pulled over, car searched , 3 cop cars always show up and make scene, 10 times in just one year. Sometimes going 20 miles per hour instead of 25, only going 80 feet with my turn signal on and not 100. Pulled over because they thought I didn't have insurance. Since I was 16 till 23 and moved out of there, we figured I was pulled over well over 40 times with only 2 tickets ever given. They loved to do it too, on the main drag of the town so everybody driving by could see it was you. Sometimes even if you didn't have a drop of alcohol, no medicines, no weed, no anything, they would make you do the sober test on the side of the road. So people driving by would think you to be a drunk.

If they didn't use intimidationt tactics, go by appearances, harrass people, harrass the homeless, harrass kids, provoke demonstrators into rioting, say menacing comments under their breath, lived on a 100% power trip 24/7 and were peace officers I might not have so many problems with them. But here in the city, all I see is the hispanic people pulled over and as far as the people driving poorly here it is the SUV driving, cell phone talking mothers cutting me off, running street lights, not coming to complete stops.

I know I am right about the hispanic thing because when driving out with my friends, everytime we pass a cop car with people being pulled over I say, "Look I bet you 10 dollars they are hispanics, and the always are."

[Dhul Fiqar]

Let's face it, police are nothing but the muscle that keeps the current system in power.

Like Weber said, a government is nothing more than a monopoly of violence, and capitalists currently hold that monopoly. Their footsoldiers are the police.

Only when the government and the laws are benign does the police become a benign force.

--- G.

[redstar2000]

Two reports from Argentina...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2965483.stm

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/argentina...idContent=10952 (http://www.buenosairesherald.com/argentina/note.jsp?idContent=10952)

Although the details are quite minimal, the class nature of the functioning police force is undeniably clear.

:cool:

[hazard]

anybody who is forced to sell his or her labour is part of the working class. it is that simple.

modern capitalist propaganda has blurred this clear definition of class to hide its truth. now there is no working class and ruling class, only upper middle and lower class. then there's the fruitcakes who think that working class means manual, physical labour. if you get a paycheque, whether its for two hundred bucks or twenty thousand bucks, you are part of the working class.