Capitalist consciousness from feudal intelligentsia?

[Die Neue Zeit]

I've stated my position regarding the merger formula on socialism and the worker movement elsewhere (class consciousness vs. socialist consciousness, organic development within the class vs. import from non-worker classes, and organic development within the class movement vs. "import" from "theory nut" workers outside the class movement), but what about the history of capitalist consciousness?

With aristocratic titles associated with some Enlightenment philosophers (Montesquieu comes to mind), was capitalist consciousness developed organically within the bourgeoisie class movement, or was it brought from outside by the philosopher equivalent of our "theory nuts"? Was it even developed within any segment of the bourgeoisie and not imported by feudal intelligentsia?

[Lynx]

The pragmatist movement perhaps played a role. That would however relate more to the development of the USA, ie. "Yankee ingenuity"

[The Douche]

In my mind theory develops out of material conditions. Is this not a marxist point of view? (I always thought it to be) So the enlightenment thinkers who developed bourgeois philosophy were just stating what was developing. Regardless of if somebody states the idea or names it the idea will come into existence.

If Marx never existed would comunism not still exist? If the material conditions of capitalism necessitate the development of socialism and eventually comunism, then surely the material conditions of feudalism necessitate the devolopment of capitalism? It doesn't need to be named or theorized in order to exist as an idea and eventually be implemented.

[Sprinkles]

In my mind theory develops out of material conditions. Is this not a marxist point of view? (I always thought it to be) So the enlightenment thinkers who developed bourgeois philosophy were just stating what was developing. Regardless of if somebody states the idea or names it the idea will come into existence.

If Marx never existed would comunism not still exist? If the material conditions of capitalism necessitate the development of socialism and eventually comunism, then surely the material conditions of feudalism necessitate the devolopment of capitalism? It doesn't need to be named or theorized in order to exist as an idea and eventually be implemented.

This is true, but the OP is certainly a very interesting question...

By looking at how the bourgeoisie became class conscious during it's class struggle and ascend to power, it attempts to answer the question whether class consciousness arises from the class itself or whether it's brought to it from the outside by a part of the intelligentsia of the previous ruling class.

Extremely interesting, I would certainly be interested if Jacob found out any specifics about this comparison.

[The Douche]

This is true, but the OP is certainly a very interesting question...

By looking at how the bourgeoisie became class conscious during it's class struggle and ascend to power, it attempts to answer the question whether class consciousness arises from the class itself or whether it's brought to it from the outside by a part of the intelligentsia of the previous ruling class.

Extremely interesting, I would certainly be interested if Jacob found out any specifics about this comparison.

I don't think this holds a lot of validity in the communist movement. (I can't say it holds none) The movement of the proletariat to abolish the class system is different wholly from the movement of the bourgeoisie to secure property rights. However the liberal revolutions occurred is not of terrific importance to the communist movement, except in terms of history, the destruction of capitalism will (and must) have a wholly different form.

[Sprinkles]

I don't think this holds a lot of validity in the communist movement. (I can't say it holds none) The movement of the proletariat to abolish the class system is different wholly from the movement of the bourgeoisie to secure property rights. However the liberal revolutions occurred is not of terrific importance to the communist movement, except in terms of history, the destruction of capitalism will (and must) have a wholly different form.

True. I don't even ascribe to the notion that class consciousness can be imported from the outside and that the working class can only attain a trade-union consciousness on it's own.

But nevertheless it's an interesting comparison if only just for the sake of novelty.

[La Comédie Noire]

Consciousness is merely a reflection of material reality.

The Bourgeoisie were just lackeys hired by kings to manage and increase their gold and silver holdings. If they did a real good job of managing commerce they received the perks of a feudal order, like aristocratic titles and land.

This of course created radical and conservative factions of the Bourgeoisie. Some were content with merely being the king's servants, while others wanted to be king's themselves.

They were viewed as "nuts" by the majority of society, which saw no reason to abolish feudalism until it became a fetter on production, which it did, with devastating results.

Bloody wars, famine, drought, pestilence, and disease were becoming increasingly frequent. Parisians weren't fond of eating boiled grass to say the least.

The discontent of the toiling masses compelled the Bourgeoisie to rule, but not out of a sense of human fraternity, as bourgeoisie historians claim. They simply saw it as their chance to rule.

They gained powerful allies in the peasantry by making land private property and they created National Guard units to suppress the vestiges of the aristocratic order.

None of these events were imposed from without; it was all the direct result of a class responding to material conditions.