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Labor Shall Rule
10th October 2008, 15:13
Will the Afghan Taleban join peace talks?


By Martin Patience
BBC News, Kabul

Newspapers are writing about it and Afghan officials and foreign diplomats are discussing it - talks with the Taleban.

Now President Hamid Karzai's own brother has confirmed a BBC report that he met former members of the Taleban in Saudi Arabia last month as part of a first step towards peace talks.

The conflict in Afghanistan has been running now for seven years and by almost every indicator, the security situation is getting worse.
There has been an unmistakable mood shift in the Afghan capital Kabul and the notion of reconciliation with the fundamentalist Islamic movement appears to be gathering momentum as a way of reining in the violence.

But if there were to be direct talks with the senior leaders of the Taleban, what would this actually mean in practice?
Well, first of all, the term Taleban is often used as a catch-all-phrase for the insurgents - it's far more complex than that.

Military veteran

The anti-government forces are far from being a monolithic bloc - there are competing egos, strategies and aims at work.
The only point that all the groups categorically agree upon is that they oppose the Afghan government.

Yes, the Taleban is a significant part of the insurgency, but there are a number of other significant players. Best known, of course, is al-Qaeda.

There's also the Hezb Islami network run by the former mujahideen leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar as well as a grouping led by another Afghan military veteran, Jalaluddin Haqqani, whose men were linked to a deadly attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul this July.
In order to end the conflict completely you would probably need to try to reach an agreement with all the groups - not just the Taleban.

That is an impossible order, particularly as almost everyone agrees that you cannot negotiate with al-Qaeda.
But let's stick with the Taleban - if you can cut a deal with the movement then you would stand a good chance of substantially reducing the conflict.

As with insurgencies in the past, there's a growing recognition that you need to deal with your enemy - in this case - the Taleban.

Political suicide
The movement commands a lot of support in the south of the country where Pashtun nationalism - which often feeds into the Taleban - is strong.

But any potential talks with the Taleban are not going to be easy.

The spiritual leader, Mullah Omar, has repeatedly demanded that all 70,000 or so foreign troops leave the country.
The Afghan President Hamid Karzai cannot agree to this as it would be an act of political suicide - his government would collapse and it's possible that the Taleban would then overrun large parts of the country.

And there's the question of who you speak to within the movement. Is it possible to speak to the senior leaders? In order to get an agreement that would stick, you would need to have these men on board. And do the Taleban even want to hold peace talks? From their point of view, it could be argued that things are going quite well. The insurgency is spreading and the government is regarded as weak, corrupt and ineffective by many Afghans. Some of these people would prefer a Taleban alternative.

Influential
Some analysts believe, however, that there are a number of senior Taleban leaders who could be won over, having spent the last seven years living in harsh and dangerous conditions.
But there are also Afghans who are suspicious of President Karzai's recent overtures to the movement. They suspect it has more to do with trying to shore up his Pashtun support ahead of the planned presidential elections next year.

Another problem is that by trying to reconcile with the Taleban you could end up alienating other groups in Afghanistan.

There have often been deadly rivalries between Afghanistan's various ethnic groups. In the north of the country, for example, there are many Tajiks and Uzbeks, who fought against the Taleban during the 1990s and who were backed by Western governments to overthrow the Taleban government in 2001. The Northern Alliance - as it was then called - is influential in the Afghan government, and it would be doubtful if it would stomach a Taleban return to the fold. In a worse-case scenario, it could end up fighting against any government that included Taleban members.
The issue of negotiations may be on the table, but, for now, there have been no significant developments. It's not even clear whether the Afghan government has a coherent strategy on the issue. Most Afghans believe that the insurgency will run for a long time yet - and that any possible deal will not come any time soon.
Though it's not formalized, Karzai's government might be opening negotiations with the Taliban soon. If they do sign a treaty that would cease hostilities, what does everybody think will happen to the anti-imperialist resistance in Afghanistan?

Yehuda Stern
10th October 2008, 16:22
There will be demoralization, because many Afghans have illusions in the Taliban, I think. On the other hand, this might lead to a part of the resistance analyzing the surrender of the Taliban as caused by their reactionary outlook, and might move to the left. So, in the short term, it will weaken the resistance, but in the long run, it could help expose the current leaders.

Saorsa
10th October 2008, 17:25
I'd be surprised if the Taliban did agree to any kind of peace deal. They're winning the war currently, and they know that the foreign troops won't stay forever, espescially seeing as how the world economy is going down the toilet.

Yehuda Stern
10th October 2008, 18:29
They're winning I'd say, but what are they going to do? It's kind of like the British strike in 1926 - the bourgeois government told the trade union leaders that they won, but they backed off because they knew that all they could do was take state power, something which they did not want to do. In the same way the Taliban really can't do much - it can't defeat the Americans or imperialism, and it might agree to a peace deal just because it fears having its bluff exposed.

benhur
11th October 2008, 06:49
They're winning I'd say, but what are they going to do? It's kind of like the British strike in 1926 - the bourgeois government told the trade union leaders that they won, but they backed off because they knew that all they could do was take state power, something which they did not want to do. In the same way the Taliban really can't do much - it can't defeat the Americans or imperialism, and it might agree to a peace deal just because it fears having its bluff exposed.

Just curious about this whole situation. As socialists, which side do we support? The backward taliban or the profit-seeking capitalist? Or, do we become indifferent to the whole thing?

Nothing Human Is Alien
11th October 2008, 09:18
Communists don't support religious fanatics that fight on behalf of the clerics, mullahs, landlords and khans and carry out public beatings of women for showing their eyes.

We fight for the creation of an independent working class pole that can unite all the toilers under its leadership to fight against the imperialists and the local exploiters (including those the Taliban represents) on the path to creation of a worker and farmers government.

No matter how difficult that is, it is our task.

We want to see the military defeat of the imperialists, but throwing our hats in with a reactionary band of anti-communists is as opportunist and unprincipled as it is suicidal (literally, see: the Islamic Revolution in Iran).

BobKKKindle$
11th October 2008, 10:19
We want to see the military defeat of the imperialists

If you want to see the imperialist powers driven out of Afghanistan, then you have to offer support to the Taleban simply because they are the ones who are currently leading the military struggle and there is no realistic prospect of any socialist alternative taking the Taleban's place, at least in the near future. The Taleban do ultimately command the support of a large number of Afghans because despite their repressive behavior they did ensure that Afghanistan was stable in contrast to the decade of civil war following the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, and they also allowed the peasants to grow poppy seeds which are the raw material for heroin and the main source of income for many impoverished Afghan farmers.

TheDifferenceEngine
11th October 2008, 14:33
If you want to see the imperialist powers driven out of Afghanistan, then you have to offer support to the Taleban simply because they are the ones who are currently leading the military struggle and there is no realistic prospect of any socialist alternative taking the Taleban's place, at least in the near future. The Taleban do ultimately command the support of a large number of Afghans because despite their repressive behavior they did ensure that Afghanistan was stable in contrast to the decade of civil war following the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, and they also allowed the peasants to grow poppy seeds which are the raw material for heroin and the main source of income for many impoverished Afghan farmers.

Yeah, nevermind the ethnic cleansing of non-Pashtuns, the slaughter of Communists after the Soviet withdrawal and the thousands of heroin addicts worldwide still hooked and inadvertently paying for shiny new pickup trucks and AKs.

A lot of people won't like this, but the west is the lesser of two evils in this case.

Yehuda Stern
11th October 2008, 15:41
Just curious about this whole situation. As socialists, which side do we support? The backward taliban or the profit-seeking capitalist? Or, do we become indifferent to the whole thing?

The problem of most leftists is that they do not think like revolutionaries. They accept the options given to them by the bourgeoisie and stay on that level. In this way, Bobkindles takes a pro-Islamist position, DifferenceEngine takes a pro-imperialist position, and Nothing Human Is Alien takes a neutral position. No position is really correct. The revolutionary position is - military support to all anti-imperialist forces, but political opposition to the Islamists and bourgeois nationalists, with the perspective of the revolutionaries becoming the leaders of the resistance movement.

BobKKKindle$
11th October 2008, 16:16
A lot of people won't like this, but the west is the lesser of two evils in this case.

So did you support the original invasion, and do you oppose the withdrawal of the imperialist troops who are currently stationed in Afghanistan?

TheDifferenceEngine
11th October 2008, 17:44
So did you support the original invasion, and do you oppose the withdrawal of the imperialist troops who are currently stationed in Afghanistan?

Do you support the massacre of the Hazara peoples?

The destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan?

The stoning of women for showing any skin in public?

Admittedly, the Western-backed Northern Alliance was little better than the Taliban and the Coalition armies have killed a lot of civilians.

But it is insanity to support the Taliban JUST beacause they are fighting the US and UK.

No matter how bad the Imperialist puppet-government in Afghanistan is, It can't possibly be as messed up as the Taliban.

Nothing Human Is Alien
11th October 2008, 20:11
If you want to see the imperialist powers driven out of Afghanistan, then you have to offer support to the Taleban simply because they are the ones who are currently leading the military struggle and there is no realistic prospect of any socialist alternative taking the Taleban's place, at least in the near future.

No. You can stand for the military defeat of the imperialists without politically supporting the Taliban one bit. You can also stand for the mutual defeat of both forces while organizing an alternative front made up of the toiling masses under the leadership of the working class.

The fact that there is no communist presence to speak of in Afghanistan has to do in large part with that the fact that "resistance" forces that the Taliban came out of, which were forged as an imperialist-backed alliance of retrograde elements fighting against a communist-led revolution (which, among other things, brought numerous women out from under the veil and into education and public life), destroyed them all (with the support of China, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia). Those are the people you currently want to lend political support to under the excuse that there is no "socialist alternative"!


The Taleban do ultimately command the support of a large number of Afghans because despite their repressive behavior they did ensure that Afghanistan was stable in contrast to the decade of civil war following the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, and they also allowed the peasants to grow poppy seeds which are the raw material for heroin and the main source of income for many impoverished Afghan farmers.

And some rightist dictators in Latin America are looked back upon fondly by some/many people because things were "stable" under their brutal rule. We don't measure the class character of a person or political organization by its current level of popular support.

Nothing Human Is Alien
11th October 2008, 20:13
But it is insanity to support the Taliban JUST beacause they are fighting the US and UK.

But it is sane to support imperialism because it "can't possibly be as messed up"?

BobKKKindle$
11th October 2008, 20:25
No matter how bad the Imperialist puppet-government in Afghanistan is, It can't possibly be as messed up as the Taliban.The problems which existed in Afghanistan still exist after the invasion and in many cases have actually grown worse due to the incompetence of the occupation authorities and their lack of concern for the welfare of ordinary Afghan people. UN evidence suggests that more than 8,000 Afghans have died so far in the war mainly as a result of the air attacks conducted by the imperialist forced, which do not distinguish between ordinary civilians and members of the resistance movement and cause not only a terrible loss of human life but also the destruction of the local infrastructure, which was at a low level before the war and is still totally inadequate. The funds allocated for reconstruction have been spent mainly on projects which are of use only to a small segment of Afghan society and the officials of the occupation government, and this is reflected in the poor quality of public services and the lack of access to basic necessities throughout the country - according to a UNDP report issued in 2005, 39 percent of the population in urban areas and 69 percent in rural areas do not have access to clean water, and one in eight children dies because of contaminated water. Moreover, the majority of schools which were damaged in the war years have not been rebuilt and are not safe, and generally children are only able to attend school for a few hours of each day due to a lack of basic equipment (especially pencils and textbooks) as well as teaching staff. In many areas NGOs have been forced to take up the responsibility of providing services simply because the elected government has been unable to fulfill its role and provide for the needs of the electorate, but because these organisations have access to only restricted material resources, their impact is limited. Despite the use of liberal rhetoric to justify the invasion on the grounds that the transition to democracy would liberate women, women have certainly not been liberated, mainly because the warlords now dominate large areas of the country especially outside the capital city, and consequently women are still forced to wear the hijab whenever they venture outside (which they are often afraid to do due to fears of rape and other acts of criminal violence directed against women such as kidnapping) and the practice of offering women as a means to repay debts and settle disagreements between families continues.

In essence, the occupation of Afghanistan has had no practical benefits for the Afghan people and has merely allowed the United States to exercise greater political influence in the middle east and gain control of the country's valuable economic resources. This is true of all imperialist conflicts - it is utterly naive to believe that interventions are conducted for altruistic reasons, as they are invariably the expression of the class interests of the bourgeoisie, who are motivated solely by personal gain. This is why socialists take up the struggle against imperialism, and this is why we should offer critical support to the Taleban resistance struggle in Afghanistan.