Honor in Suicide Bombings?

[knowledge]

Why is honor applied to the name of a man who detonates a bomb to kill himself and others? Would it not be more efficient to spit off a few rounds from a machine gun or perhaps a pistol?

[hazard]

2nd question: they often do this too, when it is strategically possible

1st question: it sounds like a recruiting standard. people wouldn't suicide bomb if they were told "yeah, its actually dishonourable to commit suicide, but our side doesn't have a chance in hell so any little thing we can do helps". in a sense, it is honourable. sorta like fighting a dragon. chances are you are gonna buy it anyway, so you might as well try and get a cuple of shots in. in a sense, it is romantic. sacrificing your life against an overpowered and corrupt enemy. suicide, in a normal sense, has been portrayed as being romantic ever since Romeo and Juliet. powerful stuff.

if anybody knows why the Kamikazee zero's in wwII were considered honourable u may have your answer.

of course, it is considered honourable for americans to nuke, napalm and night fight people they claim are already techologically inferior. dishonour comes in all shapes and sizes

[Boris Moskovitz]

"of course, it is considered honourable for americans to nuke, napalm and night fight people they claim are already techologically inferior. dishonour comes in all shapes and sizes"

I love sarcasm... True... Bombing is cowardly. Which makes me think Bin Laden is not a coward for hiding in the caves. It is smarter to hide when the ennemy is bombing you than staying outside and get killed.

But personally, I think it is because the people are kinda desperate, and can't do much with what they have, why else would they commit suicide and attack? If they could, they would've used the machine guns and crap, but they can't afford it. To me, it is only a sign of desperation... or if not... it would be a sign of total foolisness.

If it is not the only choice left, then there would be nothing honorable to rashly throwing your life away...

[HankMorgan]

Putting 80kg of explosives in the trunk of a sedan and detonating it beside a bus full of innocents isn't suicide. It's homicide. This thread should be renamed.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Now... Now... They still prefer to be called "Suicide-Bombers". The thing is that this is a war, there is no such things as good or evil, only fools would believe that. The Suicide-Bombers have a cause, it is a lot more than just a mindless slaughter. There is something they want. And they are willing to take it no matter what the cost is.

[hazard]

aladin, go rub a lamp

if thats homicide, what is launching millions of (milliongrams?) kg of explosives into civilian populated areas? I'll tell you what that is. mass murder. and what about dropping nuclear weapons onto civilian cities? I'll tell you. mega mass murder. told 'ya.

[Boris Moskovitz]

"if thats homicide, what is launching millions of (milliongrams?) kg of explosives into civilian populated areas? I'll tell you what that is. mass murder. and what about dropping nuclear weapons onto civilian cities? I'll tell you. mega mass murder. told 'ya."

How about a I-Don't-Care-About-The-Slaughter-That-My-Nukes-Did-Because-I-Am-Not-Looking-And-The-People-That-I-Am-Trying-To-Liberate-Have-Been-Nuked-And-The-Others-Were-Turned-Radioactive-And-Died-A-Slow-And-Painful-I-Mean-Very-Painful-Death ?

[hazard]

thats about right. americans do love their push button warfare... as long as they are the ones pushing the buttons.

[notyetacommie]

Innocents... Like Mary, Jesus's mother ;)? Have you seen a real innocent civilian? They are VERY rare. Say, in Israel NONE of the jews are innocent. They have taken the Palestinian's land. They have been murdering Palestinians for decades. They have been violating human rights for this very amount of time. Why would they want a land that hasn't been theirs for thousands years?

Americans on 9/11. Were they all innocent? Would you work for an organisation that has caused the bankruptcy of dozens of states, thus starving to death millions?

I don't approve of murder, I only wanted to say that these suicide bombers and terrorists have their reasons for murder in pretty much the same way USA is trying to justify mass murder for this very reason- liberty.

[Sabocat]

The Palestinians for example have been prohibited from buying weapons like anti-aircraft missles, assault rifles and any anti tank weapons.

If you take away all the equipment for them to fight and protect themselves from the Israeli forces, you are naturally going to have them resort to what they have...and thats suicide bombings. It's all they have.

They are considered "heroes" much in the same way an american soldier would be considered a "hero" for sacrificing himself for his platoon.

Desperate measures for desperate times.

[Invader Zim]

For a while there was n o problem in Isreil and was a massive tourist destination. In a small defence of Isreil they were not the ones who started blowing themselves up and killing 10's of people.

However i support niether side they are both run by facists. I personaly cant understand why as leftists we support the Arabs considering that in general the "terrorist" groops or "freedom fighters", what ever you want to call them are actualy run by facists. But then again so are the Isreil's. Sharon is a twisted individual.

However what i dont understand about this whole war is why the Palistinians want the Gaza Strip etc. As there are something like 6 million palistinians in Isreil and naiboring countrys, in an area which wont support nearly that many people.

It all seams rather pointless to me. Why can the Palistinians and the Isreil's co-exist with palistinians aloud to share power and being able to elect palastinians into government etc as well as jews.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from AK47 on 5:15 pm on April 16, 2003
For a while there was n o problem in Isreil and was a massive tourist destination. In a small defence of Isreil they were not the ones who started blowing themselves up and killing 10's of people.

However i support niether side they are both run by facists. I personaly cant understand why as leftists we support the Arabs considering that in general the "terrorist" groops or "freedom fighters", what ever you want to call them are actualy run by facists. But then again so are the Isreil's. Sharon is a twisted individual.

However what i dont understand about this whole war is why the Palistinians want the Gaza Strip etc. As there are something like 6 million palistinians in Isreil and naiboring countrys, in an area which wont support nearly that many people.

It all seams rather pointless to me. Why can the Palistinians and the Isreil's co-exist with palistinians aloud to share power and being able to elect palastinians into government etc as well as jews.

No, the Israeli's didn't start blowing themselves up...they used American F-16's, American rifles, American missles. Things that were not at the disposal of the Palestinians.


The Palestinians want a place they can call their own. Israel took the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights and kept them even though the UN condemned them for doing so. It breaks a number of UN "rules" about keeping territory.

The Palestinians have been harrassed and oppressed by Israel in the process. They will never be allowed to hold elected office in Israel. Israel won't even allow them their own leadership. Israel constantly targets the Palestinian leadership.

There is a lot of integration in Israel with lots of other ethnicities. I don't think the Palestinians have any problem living with the Israelis'...they just want recognition as a people and culture.

One only has to look at the deathrate between these two to realize that it's Israel disrupting the peace process far worse than the Palestinians. Israel is also now shooting foreign protestors as well. I think that is a good indication of their intentions.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from hazard on 6:18 am on April 16, 2003
thats about right. americans do love their push button warfare... as long as they are the ones pushing the buttons.


It's obvious they attacked Iraq because they couldn't do any damage back.

But why are they not attackin N Korea? They have the button too! :biggrin:

So they are now negotiating. Stupid yanks who really believe that Iraq has any weapons which reach out further than 150 miles, even if they haven't been found it and the US troops did search through important buildings.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from AK47 on 12:15 pm on April 16, 2003
For a while there was n o problem in Isreil and was a massive tourist destination. In a small defence of Isreil they were not the ones who started blowing themselves up and killing 10's of people.

However i support niether side they are both run by facists. I personaly cant understand why as leftists we support the Arabs considering that in general the "terrorist" groops or "freedom fighters", what ever you want to call them are actualy run by facists. But then again so are the Isreil's. Sharon is a twisted individual.

However what i dont understand about this whole war is why the Palistinians want the Gaza Strip etc. As there are something like 6 million palistinians in Isreil and naiboring countrys, in an area which wont support nearly that many people.

It all seams rather pointless to me. Why can the Palistinians and the Isreil's co-exist with palistinians aloud to share power and being able to elect palastinians into government etc as well as jews.


Actually I don't support the arab nationalists, nor the religious freaks, nor the zionists or any right winged or authoritian "freedom fighters".

I only support the groups who can cooperate with each other and don't think that blowing up/ shooting/ bombarding (both have done it) busses, schools.

I do support the brave refuseniks and those who shoot at the Isreali troops.

[suffianr]

Suicide bombing has nothing to do with honour. Talk about misunderstanding the concept...

Don't confuse martyrdom with suicide. It's like confusing pre-meditated manslaughter with culpable homicide.

Muslim clerics do not condone suicide:

http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad...ih004/index.htm (http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Disgustapated on 12:48 pm on April 16, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 5:15 pm on April 16, 2003
For a while there was n o problem in Isreil and was a massive tourist destination. In a small defence of Isreil they were not the ones who started blowing themselves up and killing 10's of people.

However i support niether side they are both run by facists. I personaly cant understand why as leftists we support the Arabs considering that in general the "terrorist" groops or "freedom fighters", what ever you want to call them are actualy run by facists. But then again so are the Isreil's. Sharon is a twisted individual.

However what i dont understand about this whole war is why the Palistinians want the Gaza Strip etc. As there are something like 6 million palistinians in Isreil and naiboring countrys, in an area which wont support nearly that many people.

It all seams rather pointless to me. Why can the Palistinians and the Isreil's co-exist with palistinians aloud to share power and being able to elect palastinians into government etc as well as jews.

No, the Israeli's didn't start blowing themselves up...they used American F-16's, American rifles, American missles. Things that were not at the disposal of the Palestinians.


The Palestinians want a place they can call their own. Israel took the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights and kept them even though the UN condemned them for doing so. It breaks a number of UN "rules" about keeping territory.

The Palestinians have been harrassed and oppressed by Israel in the process. They will never be allowed to hold elected office in Israel. Israel won't even allow them their own leadership. Israel constantly targets the Palestinian leadership.

There is a lot of integration in Israel with lots of other ethnicities. I don't think the Palestinians have any problem living with the Israelis'...they just want recognition as a people and culture.

One only has to look at the deathrate between these two to realize that it's Israel disrupting the peace process far worse than the Palestinians. Israel is also now shooting foreign protestors as well. I think that is a good indication of their intentions.


No, the Israeli's didn't start blowing themselves up...they used American F-16's, American rifles, American missles. Things that were not at the disposal of the Palestinians.

Thats quite true and most unfair that the palistinians are being out gunned.

The Palestinians want a place they can call their own. Israel took the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights and kept them even though the UN condemned them for doing so. It breaks a number of UN "rules" about keeping territory.

Yes but as i pointed out the land they want wont support the number of people they want to put there, so thats pointless. The Isreils also only took that land when they got invaded by the countrys it formaly belonged to.

The Palestinians have been harrassed and oppressed by Israel in the process. They will never be allowed to hold elected office in Israel. Israel won't even allow them their own leadership. Israel constantly targets the Palestinian leadership.

Thats all true, and if you had read my post i said vertually the same thing.

I don't think the Palestinians have any problem living with the Israelis'...they just want recognition as a people and culture.

I think you will find that, that is the problem the Isreils face with the entire Arab world. The Arab nations have stated on may occassion that they want to see the Jews driven into the sea.

One only has to look at the deathrate between these two to realize that it's Israel disrupting the peace process far worse than the Palestinians.

I agree with you completely but there is always the other side of the coin being: -

The Jews at one point were willing to give the palistinians the territory they wanted, but the suicide attacks still occured. The Isreilis called off the deal because of that. For that you cannot really blame them and now you get the current situation.


(Edited by AK47 at 2:04 pm on April 16, 2003)

[Pete]

In the translators note in the Koran I am currently reading it mentions this. What Suffianr said basically is what I read.

Are the Palestinians Sunni or Shi'ite? I know of the matyrdom of Husain...could that apply here?

[Xvall]

Putting 80kg of explosives in the trunk of a sedan and detonating it beside a bus full of innocents isn't suicide. It's homicide. This thread should be renamed.

The same could be applied to anything. I could then denounce rescue missions; after all, firing at the enemy isn't very peaceful. Then we may as well rename bombing murdur, because that is what it is. The point of these weapons is to kill people. If you want to change the name of suicide bombing to homocide bombings, then I suppose we should call firearms killing sticks and knifes death spikes. Or; we could stop worrying about the damn name. You decide.

[Lefty]

"Very few of the Jews in Palestine are innocent because they took the palestinians land"

Right, and they should be killed for something their ancestors did. In fact, not a whole lot of americans or really anybody in the world are innocent. However, terrorism is still considered by most everybody sane to be a BAD thing. NOT A GOOD THING. Because it kills INNOCENT PEOPLE.

[Ymir]

The Israelis are guilty because they continue to demolish and attack Palestinian homes. And all males who are physically able are ordered to join the military at the age of 18...So that makes nearly all the male population guilty.



(Edited by Ymir at 8:26 pm on April 18, 2003)

[Dirty Commie]

I don't believe in any sort of religion, but have respect for those willing to blow themselves up for their neo-religous Palestinian Liberation.

[Pete]

Ok, I have began reading the Koran, this is my first read-through, so if I quote this verse out of context please don't crucify me (no pun or whatever intended).

Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.
Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places which they drove you. 2:190

Would the Second sentence of the second paragraph not be religious justification for Arab agression against Isreali Jews? I know that before these verses they speak of how the 'People of the Book' have broken their covenants with God. And it also says that "Idolatry is more greivous than bloodshed" (2:191), which I believe is pointing to Christians and Jews?

If I quoted these out of context, please correct me.

(Edited by CrazyPete at 7:07 pm on April 18, 2003)

[kylie]

Would the Second sentence of the second paragraph not be religious justification for Arab agression against Isreali Jews
The palestinians, as those on the defence, dont need religious justification.

The Jews at one point were willing to give the palistinians the territory they wanted, but the suicide attacks still occured.
isreal has never offered to completely give back the land they took.

The Arab nations have stated on may occassion that they want to see the Jews driven into the sea.
of course, have you not seen what isreal has been doing to them? its bound to make them emotional.


The Isreils also only took that land when they got invaded by the countrys it formaly belonged to.

as the occupiers, its impossible for isreal to be invaded.


Right, and they should be killed for something their ancestors did.
innocent isrealis are being killed to, but they could change this, by siding with the palestinians. either through not voting far right wing parties into government, or by taking action.

However, terrorism is still considered by most everybody sane to be a BAD thing. NOT A GOOD THING. Because it kills INNOCENT PEOPLE.
no, it can be used to target the infrastructure of what an organisation is against, or the individuals and those who support them.



(Edited by feoric at 10:38 pm on April 18, 2003)


(Edited by feoric at 10:39 pm on April 18, 2003)

[Dawood]

The Palestinians don't call them suicide-bombings, they call it martyr-actions.
I think that they even consider doing such a thing proves that they are desperate for liberation.