Nationalist debate blocked in Belgium.

[An archist]

Tuesday, the Nationalist Students Union, an extreme-right organisation wanted to have a debate in one of the university buildings in Ghent (Belgium).
All the progressive student organisations managed to block to event.
A group of about thirty right-wingers, some armed with batons and fighting gloves, tried to get in through one of the back doors, they succeeded, only to be locked up in the debate hall.
A while later, Filip Dewinter, unofficial leader of the Vlaams Belang, the extreme-right nationalist party, arrived with about 20 members of the N-SA, a local neo-nazi group, they tried to get in, but faced hundreds of students shouting 'No pasaran!'
After a bit of pushing and hitting, the police used the watercanon and chased the fascists off.
Later, some plainclothes cops came in to escort the locked up nationalists off.

Reports and pictures:
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.aspx?ArticleID=2U21FV5C
http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/29814
http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/29822
http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/29828
http://ovl.indymedia.org/news/2008/10/24039.php

[Holden Caulfield]

fucking brilliant news :lol:

[1968]

Solidarity.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I've gotta call bollocks on this one guys. I dont like fascism anymore than the rest of you but to deny these guys the right to meet is ridiculous. I dont care how right-wing they are, all people deserve the right to hold meetings if they wish. Anything less is an infringment on political liberty and free-speech.

[Sasha]

free speech for fascist is dicussed in this topic (http://www.revleft.com/vb/philosophy-anti-fascism-t91215/index.html). feel free too join.

[An archist]

I've gotta call bollocks on this one guys. I dont like fascism anymore than the rest of you but to deny these guys the right to meet is ridiculous. I dont care how right-wing they are, all people deserve the right to hold meetings if they wish. Anything less is an infringment on political liberty and free-speech.

The alternative is letting them organize unchallenged...
and I think we all know what that leads to.

[thejambo1]

no platform for any fascist, ever.

[Rosa Provokateur]

The alternative is letting them organize unchallenged...
and I think we all know what that leads to.
I didnt say leave them unchallenged, just allow them the same rights that you yourselves want.

[jaffe]

I didnt say leave them unchallenged, just allow them the same rights that you yourselves want.

the right to spill their racist hatred?

[Holden Caulfield]

I didnt say leave them unchallenged, just allow them the same rights that you yourselves want.
all have the 'right' to decent human liberty and equality in my eyes, up to the point that ones actions directly affect the liberty and equality of others in community.

would you allow a fascist to preach to a mob outside of a mosque? how abouts in a 'ethnic area'? what about in a nation where multi-culturalism/immigration is used as an excuse for the failures of capitalism? to allow this is to stand by as the capitalists pour the petrol on a bombfire of the working classes, and to, in the name of freedom of speech, wait while the fascists strike the match

[An archist]

I didnt say leave them unchallenged, just allow them the same rights that you yourselves want.
No, they are the enemy of our class, if you allow them to come together and to organise, one day you'll say to your children: "Wir haben es nicht gewusst".

[inDefiance]

Yeah block the bastards, That prick should be silenced, he an even greater danger then Wilders.... especially because he is not trying to talk people to their mouths but just says what he thinks. People have respect for that...

[Rosa Provokateur]

the right to spill their racist hatred?
No different from allowing Leninists to spill their classist hatred.

[Rosa Provokateur]

all have the 'right' to decent human liberty and equality in my eyes, up to the point that ones actions directly affect the liberty and equality of others in community.

would you allow a fascist to preach to a mob outside of a mosque? how abouts in a 'ethnic area'? what about in a nation where multi-culturalism/immigration is used as an excuse for the failures of capitalism? to allow this is to stand by as the capitalists pour the petrol on a bombfire of the working classes, and to, in the name of freedom of speech, wait while the fascists strike the match

Yes. Yes. And yes. If free speech is petrol then I'm a gas-guzzler; let them speak and I promise you that if I'm there I will preach a better message that has endured their types before and will always be able to overcome them.

[Rosa Provokateur]

No, they are the enemy of our class
All the more reason to love them and treat them well, especially since I dont care about classes but the people in them.

"Our Scriptures tell us that if you see your enemy hungry, go buy that person lunch, or if he's thirsty, get him a drink. Your generosity will surprise him with goodness. Don't let evil get the best of you; get the best of evil by doing good." --Romans 12:20

[jaffe]

No different from allowing Leninists to spill their classist hatred.

move to OI please?

[An archist]

All the more reason to love them and treat them well, especially since I dont care about classes but the people in them.

"Our Scriptures tell us that if you see your enemy hungry, go buy that person lunch, or if he's thirsty, get him a drink. Your generosity will surprise him with goodness. Don't let evil get the best of you; get the best of evil by doing good." --Romans 12:20

Yes, but we don't base our ideology on a 2000 year old novel.

[Lord Testicles]

All the more reason to love them and treat them well, especially since I dont care about classes but the people in them.

"Our Scriptures tell us that if you see your enemy hungry, go buy that person lunch, or if he's thirsty, get him a drink. Your generosity will surprise him with goodness. Don't let evil get the best of you; get the best of evil by doing good." --Romans 12:20


Preaching belongs in the religion section of OI.


No different from allowing Leninists to spill their classist hatred.

What "classist hatred" would this be?

[ernie]

All the more reason to love them and treat them well, especially since I dont care about classes but the people in them.

"Our Scriptures tell us that if you see your enemy hungry, go buy that person lunch, or if he's thirsty, get him a drink. Your generosity will surprise him with goodness. Don't let evil get the best of you; get the best of evil by doing good." --Romans 12:20

I'm new here, and I have a question. Isn't there an Opposing Ideologies forum where people like Green Apostle can quote the bible and talk about "not caring about classes"?

By the way, I think what this group of students did is absolutely wonderful. You should've locked those bastards in there forever!

[Wanted Man]

I've gotta call bollocks on this one guys. I dont like fascism anymore than the rest of you but to deny these guys the right to meet is ridiculous. I dont care how right-wing they are, all people deserve the right to hold meetings if they wish. Anything less is an infringment on political liberty and free-speech.
Wah, damn those evil socialists and anarchists oppressing the poor fascist toughs... err, free speech lovers.

It's simple. The fascists wanted a university platform for their ideas. Left-wing students of said university decided not to allow this. Fascist thugs, including Vlaams Belang frontman Filip de Winter, tried to force their way through. Some people got a bloody nose. Left 1 - 0 Right. Any problems?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

No different from allowing Leninists to spill their classist hatred.

I'm surprised no-one had picked up on this one yet!

Whatever your feelings about Leninists, you simply cannot compare them to fascists. Myself, while I have fundamental disagreements with vangaurdists of all stripes, I still consider them comrades and sincere revolutionaries, a courtesy that I do not extend to fascists.

Think about it people! What Green Apostle is saying is that Leninists are just as bad as fascists!

[Holden Caulfield]

I'm surprised no-one had picked up on this one yet!

we have, the antifa forum has a shadowy invisible leadership and a CC thread has been started and closed already, the user was given a warning point,

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

we have, the antifa forum has a shadowy invisible leadership and a CC thread has been started and closed already, the user was given a warning point,

I was aware of what was going on in the CC, but what I meant was if I were a Leninist and read what Green Apostle had wrote, I would be apoplectic with rage. He just said, without any trace of irony, that Leninists are on the same level of fascists!

That's just libel, in my opinion.

[Holden Caulfield]

yeah be he thinks an invisible man lives in the sky and controls everything...
cant take everything seriously can we...

[Rosa Provokateur]

.



What "classist hatred" would this be?
I'm not denying that the rich rip working people off but you see racists supporting violence based on race, there are alot of people supporting violence based on class too. The hate is still there only its economic instead of racial.

[Rosa Provokateur]

He just said, without any trace of irony, that Leninists are on the same level of fascists!

That's just libel, in my opinion.
I've heard alot of people here say the same thing about Christians and I've yet to lose my nerve.

I'm not out to get Leninists but one must consider that the support of violence based on class has strong resemblence to violence based on race.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've heard alot of people here say the same thing about Christians and I've yet to lose my nerve.

Losing one's nerve is one thing, refuting libel is quite another.


I'm not out to get Leninists but one must consider that the support of violence based on class has strong resemblence to violence based on class.

You don't say. :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Tuesday, the Nationalist Students Union, an extreme-right organisation wanted to have a debate in one of the university buildings in Ghent (Belgium).
All the progressive student organisations managed to block to event.
A group of about thirty right-wingers, some armed with batons and fighting gloves, tried to get in through one of the back doors, they succeeded, only to be locked up in the debate hall.
A while later, Filip Dewinter, unofficial leader of the Vlaams Belang, the extreme-right nationalist party, arrived with about 20 members of the N-SA, a local neo-nazi group, they tried to get in, but faced hundreds of students shouting 'No pasaran!'
After a bit of pushing and hitting, the police used the watercanon and chased the fascists off.
Later, some plainclothes cops came in to escort the locked up nationalists off.

Reports and pictures:
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.aspx?ArticleID=2U21FV5C
http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/29814
http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/29822
http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/29828
http://ovl.indymedia.org/news/2008/10/24039.php

What frightens me is that DeWinter is actually a hotshot in Belgium...

[An archist]

What frightens me is that DeWinter is actually a hotshot in Belgium...

Indeed, the party tries to keep a somewhat civilized face, but by charging a group of students, he wants to prove to the more radical militants that they're still on the same page.

[Tower of Bebel]

The debate whether we should defend freedom of speech for everyone including fascists is a valid one. There are three opinions among the revolutionary left: freedom of speech including fascists; freedom of speech excluding fascists to safeguard freedom of speech; freedom of speech excluding fascists on a principled basis.
I think the third opinion is nuts. I have problems with the first two: which one should I support? Of course, in Ghent even if I were in favor of the first option I would still have joined the blockade: I support discipline! The majority (7 leftist organizations + the youngsters of my own youth organization) supported the blockade.
And there was no damage to the left. Yes - the conservatives (idealist-liberals, catholic-conservatives and christian-democrats) sent an open letter arguing for the expulsion of the left. But this open letter is such a stupidity that even a representative for the conservative-catholics at political and philosophical convent (where all political organizations get their funds and legitimacy from) said it is moronic to expel the left from uni. Of course the bourgeois youngsters keep pushing for the expulsion of the revolutionary left (trotskyists, anarchists and maoists). But today they have absolutely no base of support. The left is far to popular and strong.


I've heard alot of people here say the same thing about Christians and I've yet to lose my nerve.

I'm not out to get Leninists but one must consider that the support of violence based on class has strong resemblence to violence based on race.
Yes, but we don't care about feelings ("resemblence"). Also those who read Marx must look out for the words "resembles" and "appears" - they don't mean "is".

[Bilan]

I support class violence. :ohmy:
Green apostle, you're talking from a purely philosophical point of view. Reality shows that your politics are very, very irresponsible.
Fascists might be human, but what they advocate, the things they do, and are involved in, can't just be tolerated - they must be fought, everywhere.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Fascists might be human

Then they deserve to be treated humanely, thats all there is to it.

[Mather]

Then they deserve to be treated humanely, thats all there is to it.

No.

Fascist don't deserve anything but the organised opposition, by any means necessary, of the communities they operate in.

Treat fascists 'humanely' and you might as well sign your own death certificate.

There is nothing wrong, practically or ethically, in killing fascists. That they are also humans makes no difference whatsoever.

Thankfully your extremely reactionary and anti-working class views are not representative in the anti-fascist movement.

[jaffe]

No.

Fascist don't deserve anything but the organised opposition, by any means necessary, of the communities they operate in.

Treat fascists 'humanely' and you might as well sign your own death certificate.

There is nothing wrong, practically or ethically, in killing fascists. That they are also humans makes no difference whatsoever.

Thankfully your extremely reactionary and anti-working class views are not representative in the anti-fascist movement.

thank you for the extreme over the top violent fetish response to this post from who I think are also not repesentative for the anti-fascist movement. What we need is effective struggle and opposition, not calling out that killing is ethically right. That doesn't mean I don't think there shouldn't be a psysical aspect to antifascism but every fascist group and period in time ask for an different approach.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

thank you for the extreme over the top violent fetish response to this post from who I think are also not repesentative for the anti-fascist movement.

How about you read the other thread in Anti-Fascism concerning fascist violence at a peaceful student protest before you spout off about who has a "violence fetish"?


What we need is effective struggle and opposition, not calling out that killing is ethically right. That doesn't mean I don't think there shouldn't be a psysical aspect to antifascism but every fascist group and period in time ask for an different approach.He's not saying that killing is ethically right, he's saying that killing fascists is ethically right. The anarchists during the Spanish civil war held the same position, as do I.

Why don't you?

[jaffe]

How about you read the other thread in Anti-Fascism concerning fascist violence at a peaceful student protest before you spout off about who has a "violence fetish"?
I know they have for sure but does that mean we should have that as well?


He's not saying that killing is ethically right, he's saying that killing fascists is ethically right. The anarchists during the Spanish civil war held the same position, as do I.
Why don't you?
During the spanish civil war it was a right thing to do indeed. As you read in my post, every period in time asks for a different approach.

[Tower of Bebel]

How about you read the other thread in Anti-Fascism concerning fascist violence at a peaceful student protest before you spout off about who has a "violence fetish"?

He's not saying that killing is ethically right, he's saying that killing fascists is ethically right. The anarchists during the Spanish civil war held the same position, as do I.

Why don't you?
Lol, what happened to the context? Of course fascists were killed during the Spanish civil war. It was a civil war. Today we see a different situation in many countries. We now had the "freedom" to "act" instead of having to survive.
Killing doesn't solve the problem, it can only be a temporary measure or it can aggravate the problem.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Fascist don't deserve anything but the organised opposition, by any means necessary, of the communities they operate in.

Treat fascists 'humanely' and you might as well sign your own death certificate.

There is nothing wrong, practically or ethically, in killing fascists. That they are also humans makes no difference whatsoever.

Thankfully your extremely reactionary and anti-working class views are not representative in the anti-fascist movement.

They'd say the same thing about you.

Better to die spreading love than to live spilling blood.

The Nazis felt the same way about alot of people.

Likewise.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Why don't you?

Because it's wrong.

[An archist]

Because it's wrong.
Are you seriously saying the anarchists were wrong in killing fascists during the civil war?

[Dr Mindbender]

No different from allowing Leninists to spill their classist hatred.

if you find 'classism' a pejoritive concept that is no different to racism, what the hell are you doing on revleft?

[Tower of Bebel]

Are you seriously saying the anarchists were wrong in killing fascists during the civil war?
Yes, but not in the sense we're used to. He doesn't say it's wrong because killing them was a (tactical or historical) mistake. He wrote it's wrong because it feels wrong. It is a moral issue.

[Wanted Man]

I was aware of what was going on in the CC, but what I meant was if I were a Leninist and read what Green Apostle had wrote, I would be apoplectic with rage. He just said, without any trace of irony, that Leninists are on the same level of fascists!

That's just libel, in my opinion.
Yeah, it's pure ignorance. Statements like that don't even need to be dignified with a response.

I do find it odd that some people are opposing the whole blocking action. It's not as if the anti-fascists charged people, or attacked people from behind, or whatever. But they did insist that fascist thugs should not be given a stage in a university to speak from. Anything else would mean that the fascists would be allowed to give their movement more intellectual and public status. The left decided to prevent this from happening by forming a physical barrier against this. At this time, the fascists could have cut their losses and retreat, as they had clearly been stifled.

Instead, Filip Dewinter (a "respectable" far-right parliamentary) and the fascist fighting squad Voorpost (fascist thugs by any account, their raison d'être is to "secure" meetings of "softer" groups like Dewinter's party) decided to put on their fighting gloves and try to storm the place in a way that clearly exposed the true roots of their movement, as if further confirmation was needed.

So the thuggish part that the fascists played is clear for all to see. Only rigid libertarian dogmatics could claim that the anti-fascists "initiated coercion" by forming a blockade, thereby "gagging the fascists' right to free speech". In that line of thinking, the fascists would be justified to "defend their rights" by the most extreme means, including storming a crowd to bash some faces. Luckily, we live in the real world. Not in libertarian dreamland, where a homeowner is justified in machine gunning to death anyone who infringes on his property because they "initiated coercion", the logical consequence of that ideology.

To translate a part of an interview with a protester:


Many students criticised the behaviour of some protesters in the Blandijn: walking around with masks, using archive drawers to block hallways, provoking the NSV... "Without a left-wing protest, there would have been no violence." Do you agree with this criticism?

"Of course, it's true that there would not have been skirmishes if not for a left-wing protest. However, an extreme-right organisation would have been allowed in the UGent. Their record is one of racist expressions, fascist organisations and violent excesses. The NSV were never allowed to organise an activity on the UGent, and rightly so. We wanted to avoid setting a dangerous precedent. I want to make clear that we were not the ones who marched in with weapons and militias. The people who came to our protest action were mainly students. At some point, the NSV were blocked in an auditorium and kept there. However, this was after they had beaten several protesters with weapons. As such, a better option to us appeared to be to block them in the auditorium for a while, to prevent further violence. Eventually, they got a police escort out and no people were wounded further."

http://www.chengetheworld.org/nl/index.php?op=articles&task=verart&aid=572#commentaire1668

[Junius]

I think its important to note, that historically Stalinist anti-fascists and their supporters, for example Togliatti, have been responsible for many assassinations of Left Communists, anarchists and Trotskyists. In this sense, and other areas, they were on the same level as fascists: kill whomever disagrees with you.