Distinct silence on the UK nationalisation of banks here...

[Goose]

So, I've been arguing my point on here for some time. I've given up on you for some time due to the ridiculous accusations I've had thrown at me, but what do you lot make of that? It would seem the Labour party will eventually find out what its 1983 manifesto would have been like, had that manifesto not made them inelectable.

How much more will it take for them to man the barricades? Too much sadly. But I've never seen a more ripe period for revolution in my lifetime.

[Meadow]

What are you talking about?

The ruling class nationalises banks & businesses to avoid the sort of break-downs that may result in their overthrow. If anything, it is a reactionary move and a signal of the decay of the system. It shows the lack of belief in their own calls for free-trade and attacks against government intervention in the economy.

The fact that a businesses is under government control does not mean that workers are not exploited, or even better off.


How much more will it take for them to man the barricades?

If they ever did 'man the barricades' then they would be on the other side.

[Goose]

Oh good god, another idiot. I really don't see why I bother popping back on here, even as capitalism implodes around us.

Thanks for your input, and your inability to detect sarcasm regarding the ruling Labour Party, or indeed the bailout of a system that apparently works.

I guess you'd be the sort of idiot that I wouldn't be too upset if they fell on the barricade next to me. At least it wasn't me, which leaves a brain cell in the war.

[Meadow]

I really don't see why I bother popping back on here, even as capitalism implodes around us.

Thanks for your input, and your inability to detect sarcasm regarding the ruling Labour Party, or indeed the bailout of a system that apparently works.

You need to calm down. If I have misinterpreted your point, apologies. I don't live in England, so I'm not knowledgeable of the complete political situation there. But...they have nationalised some banks...(or are intending to?). You asked for a comment so I gave it: nationalisations do not take us one step closer to the sort of society which I want to live...or which suffers from these periods of recessions.


I guess you'd be the sort of idiot that I wouldn't be too upset if they fell on the barricade next to me. At least it wasn't me, which leaves a brain cell in the war.

I'm not really concerned about your opinions of me, or your (over-inflated) opinion of yourself.

[Goose]

You need to calm down. If I have misinterpreted your point, apologies. I don't live in England, so I'm not knowledgeable of the complete political situation there. But...they have nationalised some banks...(or are intending to?). You asked for a comment so I gave it: nationalisations do not take us one step closer to the sort of society which I want to live...or which suffers from these periods of recessions.



I'm not really concerned about your opinions of me, or your (over-inflated) opinion of yourself.

-1 on your political acumen. Plus one on a good come back.

[Hit The North]

Goose, if you think the time is "so ripe" why don't you go out and start building the barricade and see how many people join you.

Otherwise stop being a gobshite.

[Meadow]

-1 on your political acumen. Plus one on a good come back.

1. I don't know what 'acumen' means and according to wikipedia its either a non-profit global fund or a rock band. So...thanks.

2. What point do you have...if any? Since, you know, this is, like, a discussion forum.

[Goose]

1. I don't know what 'acumen' means and according to wikipedia its either a non-profit global fund or a rock band. So...thanks.

2. What point do you have...if any? Since, you know, this is, like, a discussion forum.

Ooh - 2 nowty people having a dig now, a little like hyenas with much howling to do.

1) acumen= insight, essentially, or knowledge, not that I would dismiss yours of course.

2) My point was how funny it is, from my side of the Atlantic, that Labour's 1983 manifesto is now coming to fruition with frantic nationalisation. I'm sorry I find humour in my political stance. Now I have to find your little friend to go

3) Ah, the manning barricades - early days mate. At least I have a record!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The nationalisation of the banks is an attempt at "damage control" of the capitalist system by the ruling class. It is of little consequence to revolutionaries unless it fails.

[Plagueround]

The nationalisation of the banks is an attempt at "damage control" of the capitalist system by the ruling class. It is of little consequence to revolutionaries unless it fails.

Exactly. Nationalization does not equal left wing by default, despite what ring wing pundits may say (I don't know what the UK has for annoying right wing loudmouths, but over here they're calling such measures "marxist social engineering" :rolleyes:). It's important to pay attention to who's doing the nationalization and for what reasons. The only thing good to come out of this is we can use it as an example of why capitalism is ultimately not sustainable and will always jump from crisis to crisis.

[peaccenicked]

A "nationalization" of losses is no nationalization at all it is a con. There is actually nothing in the measures than constitute even partial nationalism (http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/10/08/financial-crisis-uk-bank-bail-out-the-key-points/). It is a sop to the left, that traitors like George Galloway have endorsed. The Banks are firmly in control.

[Hit The North]

March on the City
We won’t bail out the bankers
Friday 10 October 4-6pm
Assemble at the Bank of England, Threadneedle St, London EC2R

http://http://www.socialistworker.co...t.php?id=16146 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16146)

[Saorsa]

These are not progressive nationalisations. There will be no workers control, and the banks will not be used for the benefit of the working class. All that is going on here is the capitalist state using taxes taken from the surplus-value created by the working class to bail out failed capitalist businesses. End of story.

There is no revolutionary sentiment to speak of in the UK, or anywhere in the First World, so our task is to use the capitalist economic crisis to explain to people why this system is fucked and needs to be destroyed and replaced with a socialist system. We have to work on developing revolutionary feelings amongst the masses, and that means exposing these bail outs for what they are.

[BraneMatter]

These are not progressive nationalisations. There will be no workers control, and the banks will not be used for the benefit of the working class. All that is going on here is the capitalist state using taxes taken from the surplus-value created by the working class to bail out failed capitalist businesses. End of story.

There is no revolutionary sentiment to speak of in the UK, or anywhere in the First World, so our task is to use the capitalist economic crisis to explain to people why this system is fucked and needs to be destroyed and replaced with a socialist system. We have to work on developing revolutionary feelings amongst the masses, and that means exposing these bail outs for what they are.

Sounds about right to me.... :thumbup1:

At least they expose the failure of the capitalist system if you can get people to look and acknowledge it.

[peaccenicked]

This is in no way a nationalization. In a part nationalisation you would expect the government to say; "we will be taking such-and-such a shareholding in the companies and we will have such-and-such representation on the board". They have said no such thing.

Are we going to repeat this right wing propaganda, for the left to sap up in order to toe the line.

I read the socialist worker article (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16146).

I disagree with it sufficiently to say it is misleading but it does promote action, if only in London. That is more than I have achieved but it is early days.

What I find misleading or wrong is the context of this crisis. It is presented as a run of the mill capitalist crisis . An ordinary day occurrence in the life of Capitalism, but this is an example of craft dilletantism.

Whoever even asks himself this question will surely see that the Party is more than just a political field under the direct influence of the paper; that the Party is not just composed of assiduous readers of Iskra, but of active elements of the proletariat who are engaged in their collective practice each day. Let us repeat, it is to arouse this collective activity, take it forward, co-ordinate it and give it shape (and just for that) that we need a supple, flexible organisation capable of initiatives, an “organisation of professional revolutionaries,” not of peddlers of literature, but of party political leaders.


.....................................

Many, far too many comrades remain deaf and blind to the questions we have just raised. This deafness and blindness are not individual, chance faults, but characteristics arising as tendencies during the period of ideological liquidation, of “Economism” and “craft dilletantism.” Many Iskra-ists must become clearly conscious of these faults and “eliminate” them, and the sooner the better." Trotsky (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1904/tasks/ch03.htm)



This crisis is unprecedented not just economically but politically. It is burying US hegemony. Even the rightwing Financial Times (http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/10/06/a-global-downturn-in-the-power-of-the-west/) recognizes this.


Where this economic crisis is also unprecedented is in that it takes place so directly after a boom period that has raised the expectations of the working class, many of whom have been seeing themselves as middle class, and produced a mod-con generation, unready for economic collapse, where the trade unions have largely degenerated, ie away from militancy. The anglo-sphere has been sold on the American dream. We cannot afford to "do" capitalist crisis by rote. This is so mechanical that even the dimmest of people will notice that it is trapped in the past.

The reference to Iceland runs counter to the rest of the article. Why the double-think?

Iceland has shown that countries can go bankrupt: Britain could go this way
The pound is due to go into free fall. It has to be stressed that we are in for a severe kicking, more and more we will have to rely on what we have than what we can get.
Politics an art and that needs to be practiced as a fully consistent economic and political exposure of the imperialist system.

[al8]

Iceland has yet to go bankrupt. That simply remains to be seen.

But on the use of the word nationalisation. The Prime Minister of Iceland himself discouraged the use of it. He said what was being done was not nationalization of the banks but the state takeover of the banks.

[Charles Xavier]

The originally poster fails to understand how weak the Left is in Britain, right now is a good opportunity to build the left and labour forces, not revolution at this point, much work is needed.

[Hit The North]

Reports on today's anti-capitalist demo in London today:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/10/anticapitalista-in-city.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/10/410372.html

Small beginnings, but signs of resistance which we need to build on.

[peaccenicked]

Iceland has yet to go bankrupt. That simply remains to be seen.

But on the use of the word nationalisation. The Prime Minister of Iceland himself discouraged the use of it. He said what was being done was not nationalization of the banks but the state takeover of the banks.


Not yet bankrupt. Its got a 4billion euro loan from Russia. Not really what a Nato country likes! And it closed its market. How far down it will plump is another thing

The state is not taking over the banks, the banks are taking over the State.

http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/10/08/massive-bailout-for-british-banks-fraudulently-presented-as-nationalisation/

[Bronsky]

The term nationalisation is being pushed around over the Brown Labour Governments bailing out of the British banks. It brings to mind the so called radical policy of the Atlee government of 1945 that supposedly took up a policy of nationalisation. My sketchy knowledge of these events would say the actual facts were far different; the coal and railway industries were on their knees before WW2 and like today were bailed out by the 1945 Labour government.

I am not clear as to facts of the state take over of industry, can anyone give a good outline to them.