My conclusion - Close this forum.

[peaccenicked]

The Capis are dishonest spammers just taking the piss out of our tolerance. The Stalinists are erstwhile ,sometimes, but mostly 'honest' ignorant bastards trying to learn something about integritry however, doomed to ridicule by the ignorance they promote as eternal wisdom.
Freedom of speech is beautiful but being anything near a 'vigilante' for want of a better word, on che-lives is about replying to nothing but the worst excesses of blind imperialist propaganda backed down by stalinist apologies.. OI is not educational unless one wants to be a psychologist dealing in how to deprogramme members of a cult.
There is no difference between Chiak47 and Moaists.
There are no genuine questions, no honest listening dialogue, just pure hatred for 'unpatriotic' anti-authoritarians. ie {Democrats?} Marxists, Anarchists,Greens..anything leftist that destroys in practice and philosophy, the neo-liberal bogeyman idea of big government. They wont even let us get through to them on an honest ideological/scientific level.
Neither the Capis or the Stalinists will allow us to be listened to, when the Guevarists say " Che was the biggest onslaught against ''big government '' in the real history of politics. It is one straw man after another.
So full of ignorance. It has become shameful.
Let us only listen to honest questions.

[Invader Zim]

my conclusion is that thats a shit suggestion, no offence. This is the most used political forum if we close it then loads of people will leave.

[weepingbuddha]

AKs right. in my mind reading anything anyone else has to say is the most educational thing to do--even if half the shit is mislead and foolish. reading stuff that you agree with is reassuring, but its boring, and the arguments in this forum are interesting.

[peaccenicked]

Comrades,AK47 and weepingbhudda, it is a sad indictment of our current practices me included, that this forum has become like the looters of Baghdad. There is excitement but no real honesty. We have allowed the word 'anarchy' to mean less than the organisation of the governed. We are arguing against the deluded, ego trippers of big government. We are arguing against the silent worshippers of the Klu Klux Klan, and I include Stalinists here.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 1:21 am on April 13, 2003
Comrades,AK47 and weepingbhudda, it is a sad indictment of our current practices me included, that this forum has become like the looters of Baghdad. There is excitement but no real honesty. We have allowed the word 'anarchy' to mean less than the organisation of the governed. We are arguing against the deluded, ego trippers of big government. We are arguing against the silent worshippers of the Klu Klux Klan, and I include Stalinists here.

If you made a speach like that for prime minister i would vote for you.

[weepingbuddha]

peaccenicked---whos to say there is little to no honesty in this forum? it depends on who you are, which is what makes this such a strong element to this website. yeah, no doubt theres a ton of fuckers that are exactly as you described-"deluded, ego trippers of big government", but those are the people we are fighting against. you cant run away from what you wish to change, and i'm here to see what ignorance there is, and attempt to turn it around.

[hazard]

peace is correct, however his solution is incorrect

I think that all board participants should simply allow the new recommendations to take effect before considering drastic measures

[peaccenicked]

Comrade,AK47 I have no wish to become anything but to become a a clear but undyingly questionable voice of
the governed. I have absolutely nothing to lose but my integrity. All I am saying is that OI has become, in reality,Opposing lies and insolence and it is time to put a stop to it.

[Invader Zim]

Perhaps if we did not cage people as much ie let them in chit chat, then a lot of the spam etc would go in there.

[Anonymous]

Hey, if you don't like it then don't come in here.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 1:38 am on April 13, 2003
Hey, if you don't like it then don't come in here.

why do you come here? out of interest?

[peaccenicked]

Comrade,weepingbhudda. I am sorry I slipped . I mean I did not read your comment before I posted. That facility to know if someone else is posting is not part of the package that Che-lives uses as I am sure you are aware.
I cannot say that I can know honesty when I see it on many occasions. Even people who lie sometimes have honest motives like destroying the political integrity of che-lives. It has become obvious that they do not want to listen to the majority point of view. They have become ideological obstacles to the representation of the even the commonplace image Che, never mind any scientific historical evaluation of the very important and pivotal role Che played in world history.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 1:54 am on April 13, 2003)

[peaccenicked]

Why do I come here? This is part of our community. It is like cleaning the toilet. I feel obligated.

[Invader Zim]

The question was actualy to DC but i like your answer.

[peaccenicked]

As to spamming we should try to find a way to stop it.
Deleting threads that assume that communists support 'big government' might be a start, but I would ask the community as whole to donate on software invalidating spamming IPs.

[hazard]

what exactly do u consider spam?

is it the "GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS" bit or something like it or something else?

[peaccenicked]

Useless emptyheaded posts like yours. This community is learning nothing from your obtuse falsifications that are not grounded in any spirit of truth or even mild understanding of the purpose of decent human communication


(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:23 am on April 13, 2003)

[Anonymous]

That's an opinion.

[El Che]

Where honesty is concerned it`s really hard to tell. But what I can tell you is that content here has degenerated into shit. That is a statement I feel confident I can make. The purpose of someone like Chiak on this site is to insult the "lafties" in new inventive ways. I make a post about something and he posts merely to turn my name into some insulting homonym and says he doesn`t care about my points because "America offers him the best lifestyle". There are many such examples. Others seem to have issues and come here to vent their hatred and anger. This situation does bother me because A) this a part of the community and B) this could potentialy be a rich space. I haven`t brought it up before because I`m reluctant to propose the solution peace is proposing. I feel it would be closing the door so to speak. Tomorrow some cappies with brains might show up and they would no longer have a space here. As a tolerant community, which I think we are, that would be a loss. But the problem is these cappies don`t show up and the more crap I see here the more I feel inclined to accept drastic solutions.

As to why OI is so popular I can`t help to remember what an old poster here said on similary situation: "What did you expect utopia?". Threads about sex or flamefests get more views and more interest than stories in the newswire section or the good threads with long posts. The fact that OI gets alot of atention really says nothing.

I think it`s funny to see what makes people tick. Some members like to come here more on a social one, others stay mainly in the politics area, others like to do battle with the Stalinists or the Trotsyties and others other things. If you try and close down chit chat or get ride of the Stalinists they`ll come up with all sorts of reasons why you shouldn`t to that but their main problem is that they where having fun and you`re gonna ruin it.

Sorry for ranting but thats my 2 cents. I don`t really know if we should close OI but I definitely think it`s going nowhere fast.

[peaccenicked]

DC, that is an opinion, but this is not billed as a free discussion board, no matter how much I admire genuine free discussion.OI is merely a sounding board for the Stalinist and the hypocrytical corporate mouthpieces of 'big government'.
Did not you notice there is big political splash of Che Guevara on the entrance to this bb. None of the oppositional residents even refer to his works archived there. There is not even a remote ensemble of decency and manners on this forum, except from the patient, diehards against spin, such as myself and the many outraged members who feel cheated by the inane,sterile, and stale regurgitation of yesterday's highly questionable propaganda.

[hazard]

thats an interesting reply, peace. the mods request that name calling, and finger pointing and attitudes such as yours be subsided. and how do you respond? with all of the above.

as far as emptyheaded posts go, at least I write my own posts. it takes a "full" head to post a URL, don't it?
please, because I am so emptyheaded, explain in what way MY posts are emptyheaded.

here's emptyheaded:
"This community is learning nothing from your obtuse falsifications that are not grounded in any spirit of truth or even mild understanding of the purpose of decent human communication "

this statement consists of an idea that words cannot substantiate. thats why it is not grounded in any logical moorings. it assumes that a falsification must consist of two things. the first is "a spirit of truth" and the second is something like "understanding the purpose of decent human communication".

falsification, as I understand it, revolves around the idea of divining the truth through eliminating all that can be doubted. it is, necessarilly, in "the spirit of truth". it is itself the spirit of truth. falsification has no relation to "decent" human communication. why you attempt to make this connection is unknown.

and this is my charitable analysis of your SPAM against me. what I really think is that you are attempting to incorporate a half dozen ideas into a single entence and fail miserably.

if you don't like my style, too bad. I don't really like yours, but at least I understand this basis of human communication: senseless, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and indefensible insults break every code of communictaion known to any person in any age.

next time keep your big mouth shut, as obviously you are part of the problem and not part of the solution

[peaccenicked]

El Che, I appreciate your comments very much. I agree with everything you say. The problem I have is that intelligent capis are a thing of the past. There is nothing intellectually challenging in the arguments for war or the neo-conservative agenda. We have got more wise they have got more stupid.(objectively)
I am really just saying that is becoming an intolerable situation.
At least previous capis had some recourse to logic, in that they tried. The best we get now is a smart alec/arsed comment. Let us shut the humdrum noise. Let us make our own 'noise' louder. All the old capi arguments have failed and only exposed persistent ignorance.
The minority of spammers are becoming less relevant to anything but the ever decreasing circle of sychophants
who have only one destiny. Wanking for America.

[peaccenicked]

Hazard. Your question was ''what is spamming?''
I ll give you some credit for at least defining it for yourself.
But What I ask you. Why pose such an emptyheaded question in the first place.

[Anti communist]

Peace, I don't think he was kidding about his question on what is spam? I don't know either. I know what spam is in relation to email that people don't want. But what is spam in relation to a board/forum like this. I don't know, for real.

Also, this forum is the only one that us cappies can post in. If you don't want to hear what we have to say then just don't read our posts.

If you start a forum called opposing ideoligies and then close it or police it too much after you've gotten a lot of heat from cappies, then it's gonna look like you can't take the heat or handle the truth, or something like that. You see what I mean?

[hazard]

I was looking for specifics peace. my question was not spam if it was valid. my assumption was towards the de-evolution of many discussions into the repeated statement regarding the blessing of the troops.

its not emptyheaded to admit that you don't know something, or are unclear on it. it seemed like you were taking a stab at all of my posts and not just the one where I asked what was to be considered as spam. or was it your post in response to my question that was the definition I was looking for?

[Anti communist]

Also, how about letting us restore our avatars and sigs to what we want? It really doesn't make you guys look good to have a cron job running every 15 min to change my avatar and sig. It looks like you are doing it in the hopes that I'll leave. It looks very intolerant. It looks kind os Stalinist or fascist. An as I said in that other post I started, it really doesn't look professional guys. Think about it.

[hazard]

worm, just live with it. it suits you.

[Iepilei]

personally I see this section of the forum as a mere beacon for all that is even mildly opposed to any form of left-wing politics. sure, we cannot allow ourselves to be isolated in our thinking, but with bandwidth issues already at hand, certainly unnecissary kvetching is not needed.

No middle ground is ever met. It's just a endless barrage of "dirty imperialist" and "commie puke".

[peaccenicked]

Hazard, I shall apologize,in that I was actually reffering to your immediate post, and your somewhat bizarre signature, left me with the idea that spamming was your forte. I would have to go over your posts again to come to a definite conclusion, but as far as my memory serves me, I cant think of one good social reason why you are posting here.
AC. I am not an administrator, I only have moderator status over theory. I have only used my 'power' to delete one copy of a double posting {twice} and to shift topics to more appropiate forums{thrice}. I have not took part in any discusion as to your status at all. Neither have I protested for you which makes me complicit.
This is the only forum capis can post in. I dont want any capis here. As far as I am concerned we are giving a platform for racists. Imperialism=racism=support for war.
That might be a matter of disagreement between you and me but I want my views known loud and clear.
No platform for the psuedo-liberationist racist murderers of the Iraqi people. It has become clear that racist ignorance is the hallmark of the pro-Bush Blair infanticide.
You may say you are telling truth but that was one of Hitlers claims.

[peaccenicked]

Iepilie.
I think that those who are only mildly opposing left wing ideas, perhaps I have been unfair to Hazard, As I am only going on one post and rough memories, should be allowed free roam of the board. I mildly oppose some left wing ideas myself. If one can include bureaucratic centralism as a left idea which it is not, as it is the lynchpin of anti-communist ideology.
I say close this forum as the war has made it clear that the very act of being a person in Iraq is subject to American qualifications.' The only bonafide Iraqi is liberated and this discounts the dead.

[hazard]

social reason:

I am an avid supporter of socialism and keenly interested in communism. there are other sites such as this, but the personality of che-lives has drawn me here. most of the ideas I find interesting have already been discussed, so now I simply participate in other peoples discussions. this is despite the fact that most of them are "nit-picking". I have also contributed some interesting topics in the other forums. "Communism Conspiracies" is something that should be taken lightly, while "Adventures in Guerrilla Warfare" should be taken VERY lightly.

[peaccenicked]

Comrade, I think I do owe you an apology. Sorry.
I' ll leave it at that.




(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:34 am on April 13, 2003)

[Ymir]

The "Stalinist" faction at Che-lives has been banned and abused to the point that it seems I am the last that makes regular visits( Note: Cassius is still around too but it seems he has steered clear of the OI forum recently). It had always appeared to me that the Stalinists kept the 'OI' forum and its predecessors communist and our rhetoric could drown the capitalist rhetoric. Now you have strangled the active communists from here and all you have is an ever MORE active anti-left opposition force. Your "liberal" dictatorship & bureaucracy has truly created a counter-revolution. Peacenicked, you realize that your methods are just as "right wing" as the 'Stalinist' methods.

[hazard]

peace:

I too owe you an apology. my response was an overreaction. rock on, comrade.

[Anti communist]

Peace, how can you call me a racist? Did you read the posts or responses I made recently about how much I admire Condaleeza Rice, Colin Powell, and JC Watts? I can't be a racist.

Also, what is spamming in relation to a discussion board? I don't know what that means.

[peaccenicked]

YMIR. To put it frankly. I am pissed off with being called a liberal. You and your so called active communists can go to hell. You serve nothing but to keep the idea of socialism marginalised. I know that Marx would spit on your impending grave.
Your comment proves how useless you are to the cause of human liberation.
The Stalinists are bigger liars than the capitalist politicians. Che dispised bureaucratism and criticised the "Really existing socialist" countries for it.

[peaccenicked]

AC,
All you have said is you admire black republican 'Uncle Toms" who support the infanticide that you patently and racistly ignore.
Secondly you have just proved that you are a "wanker for America" and we should really get you to fuck off from Che-lives.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 5:02 am on April 13, 2003)

[Boris Moskovitz]

Really, this forum is almost out of control, I think we should make the rules a little stricter... I think there should be no more requests such as "Please! For the love of god! Stop this!"... How about "Stop this, or else I will do it myself!"... I don't think people can learn in here. That might be the only way other than closing the forums.

[American Kid]

... I don't think people can learn in here.

Well I can think of one who obviously can't.

This forum needs to be protected like the Mona Lisa. It's integral. It matters. There's a whole lot more going on than just spamming and flaming (and come on- flaming?- don't make me laugh. Grow up, what's the big deal? FLAME BACK!)

Peacce, let's not give up just yet. And yes, that's what you're doing. This talk of isolationism is disturbing.

And yes, that's what it is.

Everybody here (on both sides) has to appreciate the fucking lightning rod that the subject of this site is: communism.

And yes, that's what it is.

It's important that people be allowed to talk about it. To fight about it. Because if not on the internet, then where? Think about it.

This forum is important. People definetely learn here.

the reformed, once-ignorantly right-wing prick,
-AK

[hazard]

american punk:

the only reason that communism is considered a "lightning rod" is because people like you turn it into one. it has more logical validity than any other socio-economic system in the world. the fact that people are even debating it indicates only the level of brainwashing, mind control and propaganda the capitalist nations NEED to protect their greedy, rich, exploitive selves from the vast majority of their slaves.

its interesting that you have a silver age superhero as your avatar. the 'cap' was intentionally created as a tool of propaganda. you knew that though, didn't you. ADMITTED PROPAGANDA. take a look at the modern super heros for true heros, a true reflection of the decay within society. the Xmen, for example, are a direct parallell between the anticommunist public mindset and the communists themselves. the Xmen are the socialists, tolerant types, while the brotherhood are the revolutionary, hard core commies. ALL ARE THE GOODGUYS. the only bad guys in the Xmen are the "flatscan" humans that live only to fear and hate what they don't know. you're living in the past american punk. captain america is a stooge that is nothing more than a throwback to a dying generation. they're through, and so are you.

[Anonymous]

Oh shit.

[Boris Moskovitz]

''This forum needs to be protected like the Mona Lisa. It's integral. It matters. There's a whole lot more going on than just spamming and flaming (and come on- flaming?- don't make me laugh. Grow up, what's the big deal? FLAME BACK!) ''

This is the problem, if you flame back, then your opponent will do the same, and the hostilities will rise, this whole thing is a vicious circle. But the hardcore-debating... It's not good either, it will simply lead to flaming again. If anything leads to flaming, it leads to no good.

I gotta say, both sides in the X-Mens are very controversial and have very strong points. I will be on Magneto's side though... I am not such a soft-hearted peaceful person...

[hazard]

as a child I saw magneto and the brotherhood as the "bad guys"

as an adult, I see the deeper meaning. I don't know who I'd side with, but I'd at, the very least, be an X Man.

Magneto is pretty wicked though. I totally see where he's coming from and why he wants to push the movement into a revolutionary phase. as for the professor, even he is FORCED to admit that slow, peaceful change doesn't seem to be working. ever notice that when the Xmen and the Brotherhood join forces it is because Magneto himself is right? Apparently the new X Men movie has these sides in allegiance, as they should be. I always loved it when Magneto and Xavier were playing chess and Magneto asks what would xavier do if the government came to the school and then xavier said that he'd feel pity for the fool that came looking fr trouble. To me, thats Xavier again admitting that there cannot be peace between the humans and the mutants, or, the capitalists and the communists. In other words, a revolution is necessary.

[Anarcho]

Even the folks over at Stormfront have a forum where they are willing to put up with those that are against them.

If you look, the responses are quite similar.

More coming in a few minutes, I have to catch up with my work....

[Boris Moskovitz]

Man, thank god for bringing us Stan Lee... At the same time, he is being political, but he keeps his readers interested with all the action and fights. But I gotta say, they both are for the same cause, that Mutants may be free, but they want to do it in different paths. I agree with you, there will be a war. Even if those two side together, I kinda doubt it will last for long, or maybe it will. But I doubt it, I somehow think that those 2 are ennemies, even though they want the same things.

To me, it also seems like Martin Luther King and Malcom X. Malcom X wanted a revolt, and King wanted by peaceful ways. I don't think King's way worked at all. I still see people in my school calling 'African' people 'Negros'. Sad, but true, the discrimination is still very alive.

People will have to learn it the hard way.

I'd cry if I see Magneto die, but I saw him die many times, then come back, is this nonsense?

[hazard]

beautiful. king and x are the perfect real world examples. the xmen work on a racial level as well as a political one.

hey, american punk? where's your silver age 2d hero now? chucking his shield around for the "american way"? dragging hippies into the army?

[Boris Moskovitz]

''hey, american punk? where's your silver age 2d hero now? chucking his shield around for the "american way"? dragging hippies into the army?''

lol, maybe Wonder Woman?

[American Kid]

hey, american punk? where's your silver age 2d hero now? chucking his shield around for the "american way"? dragging hippies into the army?

Ugh...dude, what are you doing? Seriously...

I just sent you a PM that hopefully will clarify things.

For the record, I chose Cap because it was one of the avatars available. And I'm too computer illiterate to figure out how to do one from an outside source.

Fin.

I don't even like Captain America comics.

lol, maybe Wonder Woman?

I stand aghast in shock and/or awe, cowering in the face of the mysoginistic onslaught that is this impressive example of wit at it's most unforgiving. Seriously, go easier on me next time.

Oooh, was that flaming? My B.

But seriously, you started it. Once more and I'm telling mom.

a guy who's been around the block and back at this site,
-AK

[Boris Moskovitz]

Nah, that was not really flaming, I've read worse. Sorry if I offended you, just felt like laughing a little bit.

[American Kid]

Negative, dude. Let's not back-track. It was flaming. Nice try though.

Now write my sig 80 times on the black-board.

-AK

[Anarcho]

To get back to the OP here:

As I said, even Stormfront allows voices of dissention to be heard. Can Che-Lives do no less?

The problem I see in this forum is that there is no attempt at rational discourse. There is no attempt to make meaningfull debate.

The OI forum is like a room full of singers, all belting it out at the top of their lungs.... many of them are crap, but there are a few really good notes. The problem is, you can't hear them for all the noise.

I would suggest another forum instead. Tightly moderated, by both a Socialist and a Capitalist, a forum wherein the goal is rational debate and discourse. Flames would be quenched in the pursuit of meaningful dialouge.

At least in theory.

If you're beliefs, for or against, can't stand up to a well read and well thought out debate, maybe you need to rethink why you feel the way you do. If you're only retort to a meaningful response is "Stupid Commie/Cappie, you don't know crap!" and then never posting to that thread again.... maybe you should try to figure out why you had no real answer to the post in the first place.

[synthesis]

As I said, even Stormfront allows voices of dissention to be heard.

Have you ever even posted there? Che-Lives has been a hundred times as tolerant with these crusaders for unintelligence as Stormfront has ever been or ever will be.

I can dig out dozens of incidents of Chiak advising forum members to commit suicide in complete seriousness. He also made threads with such topics as 'I hereby claim this forum American.' I would conservatively estimate that he has refused any sort of intellectual debate in 95% of the threads he participates in. Stormfront not only would have banned him the first time he did the former, they also would have probably reported him to the police immediately.

Here at Che-Lives, we gave him a rather derogatory subtitle... and that's it. Can you honestly say we treat our opposition badly? All we do is make them feel at home by giving them personalized avatars, signatures, and titles. It's been weeks, if not months, since we've banned anyone of the opposition, and longer since we banned anyone who wasn't a fascist, Nazi, spammer, or outright racist. And for the record, I don't agree with the immediate banning of the far right.

[Anarcho]

DyerMaker- The reason I brought up SF is because they are the opposite ends of the spectrum from this bunch in many ways.... and in some ways they are mirror images of each other.

I've posted there many times, though nothing recently, as I got in trouble at work for being on that site.

While it is true that administration of this site does not ban trolls, spammers and such as vigorously as they do at Stormfront, the truth is, you can come into SF with facts and figures to back up your claim, and they will slough it off as "Jewish Media lies" and proclaim you a lemming.

Here, they just refuse to listen, and continue to insist that what they believe is true, sloughing off any facts and figures as "tools of the capitalist system".

But even though they may hate them, and deride them, they allow those that disagree with them to post. The OP of this thread stated that he believed this forum, where anti's and Cappies can post should be closed. I'm defending this forum as best I can.

[Ghost Writer]

"There are no genuine questions, no honest listening dialogue, just pure hatred for 'unpatriotic' anti-authoritarians. ie {Democrats?} Marxists, Anarchists,Greens..anything leftist that destroys in practice and philosophy, the neo-liberal bogeyman idea of big government. They wont even let us get through to them on an honest ideological/scientific level."

You are so full of sh*t, Peacenicked. In fact, the questions that I have continued to raise on this forum represent the very reason for your hatred of me. You are not interested in dialogue. Furthermore, you are incapable of making any point in an "ideological/scientific" manner, whatever that means. You lack the intelligence necessary to formulate an argument, let alone speak of topics in a scientific manner.

Okay wise one, why don't you explain to me your definition of scientific knowledge, and what the scientific method entails? To hear you claim that you have any understanding of this process is nothing short of laughable.

You can count this as another one of the many excellent questions that I have asked the people on this forum. Of course, I would not expect someone with your degenerating mind to recognize them for what they are, as you lack the education to understand important points. This is evidenced by your complete lack of argumentation, your inability to post anything of your own, and your constant lack of understanding regarding the topics the rest of us discuss.

It appears that you are probably the worst contributor to this site, with nothing to offer the discussion. Considering the average quality of people on this sight, this is no easy task. Congratulations.

[El Che]

The point is I don`t like this Jerry Springer shit. I don`t like it, I think it`s rubbish, I don`t want to be involved in it, I don`t want it here.

[sc4r]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 12:58 am on April 13, 2003
The Capis are dishonest spammers just taking the piss out of our tolerance.

Comrade I agree. But like some others I'm afraid I dont agree with your solution.

There are some who will visit here and be swayed by the nonsense preached by the right. But lets face it, there are 1000 other places where they will hear the same or worse. Here we at least guarantee that there will be a reasonable volume of responses from us which are not drowned out by their mindless shouts.

Anyone open minded will view the other boards of this forum and maybe form a more balanced view. If we shut OI we almost admit that we cannot counter the noise of the right; we dont admit that they are correct, but we do admit defeat by their volume.

So let them stay; let them rant; and respond to their rants with wisdom. We wont convince everyone, but then we never will; after all we are fighting against the flow of a huge propaganda machine.

Kill off the worst excesses by all means. Do not allow them to break the forum rules; but tolerate them in the spirit of 'That which does not kill us makes us stronger'.

Best wishes.

(Edited by sc4r at 4:08 pm on April 13, 2003)

[Ghost Writer]

The point is I don`t like this Jerry Springer shit.

Could you clarify? What Jerry Springer shit? Did you ever see the Simpon's episode where Marge tried to ban Itchy and Scratchy? Remember the pathetic cartoon that resulted when the two were force to be nice to each other. Surely, we do not want to create such a hideous product.

[El Che]

Is any clarification necessary? Is it not plain to see why this situation is undesirable on the face of it?

What do I want? I want you to come here and make your case, present your thinking and your ideas. I`ll do the same and believe me will both be winning. Its really interesting how people are very different from each other and sometimes you can really get people thinking and vice virsa.

If you`re not interested in that and you just don`t want to be "nice" to me than you can piss off in a very big way.

(Edited by El Che at 4:50 pm on April 13, 2003)

[Ymir]

Hey peacenicked, you should read "Mein Kampf", another person like yourself advocates the purging of communists.

[redstar2000]

Being too lazy to re-type this post from Drake's thread, I just copied it here. -- redstar2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------

This forum is an anolamy at che-lives. It isn't a gathering of friends, much less "comrades". It's purpose is not to
shed light on questions of common interest.

It's a little "piece" of the bourgeois-dominated world that has been incorporated into che-lives, but sealed off from the rest of the board.

I have no idea what the original intentions behind having a forum like this were...perhaps it was thought that people who were still pro-capitalist but interested in communist ideas would come here and ask honest and thoughtful questions...and
we would get some practice in getting ideas across to people without a background in left history or terminology.

It hasn't worked that way in the eight months that I've been on the board. I can recall only two thoughtful questions in
this forum in the entire period that were raised by pro-capitalist people...and one of those was a ringer, a question that contained a hidden agenda. Or course, I didn't read every thread and there certainly could have been one or two others that I missed. But you get the idea.

The general tone of the pro-capitalists in this forum has been almost 100% abuse...much of it personal. I don't get too upset about it; flame wars do have a certain appeal...especially when the opponents are so inept.

But, standing back and trying to be objective: this forum has no legitimate reason to exist.

If I need to know the capitalist views of a certain issue, I have many intelligent sources on the internet to consult...the BBC News site is excellent for the purpose. There are even sites like Information Clearing House that gather the most revealing documents concerning what the ruling class really thinks about things. So the "cappies" are not here to
provide us with anything useful in the way of information.

Nor do I think that it does a great deal for our "debating skills" to contest with such pathetic characters. It may be fun--it is for me--but I can't claim to have "improved" myself by trading insults with this bunch. I probably should have
been reading something serious rather than indulging myself in the intellectual equivalent of pac-man.

So, aside from the fun of flame wars, what's the point of this forum?

I see none. As long as it's here, I'll enjoy it. (I'm already thinking over some new "titles" for the cappies that I haven't "baptized" yet.)

But I won't miss it when it's gone.

:cool:


(Edited by redstar2000 at 12:56 pm on April 13, 2003)

[Hayduke]

For me its over with O.I, but for the new members it can be quite usefull.

[Silent Eye]

Haven't posted here much, but i don't see a reason to close it down. Who will the leftists debate if there is no opposition? Isn't that the whole purpose of debate?

It would make us leftists just as bad as the capitalists to use their silencing techniques.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I didn't come here at all for months, untill Chit Chat was temporarily closed. Now that I can actually help keep these fucks in line by closing the worst threads, I feel compelled to return.

There's no real reason to close it, but no reason to go here either unless you enjoy arguing.

--- G.

[Cassius Clay]

I see Peacenicked being his/her usual bullying self.

I belief it was Noam Chomsky who said 'If we don't believe in freedom of speech for our opponents then we don't believe in it atall'. I'll once again say if you can't debate a bunch of people believing in Capitalism on a internet board what hope do you have? How are you going to convince people in real life Socialism is the answer if you can't do it here? I'm sure we've all had the experience of coming up short of a argument in real life and looking like a bit of a fool. Here's the place to talk and learn.

Anyway people like Kelvin and maybe LL I feel have especially raised some interesting criticims of socialism that deserve a valid response. Responses like 'Fuck you Cappie' get no one no where.

Oh yes and Che was a 'Evil Stalinist'.

[RedComrade]

Oddly enough I agree with Clay on this, for me at least OI has been an invaluable tool for sharpening my debate skills and gathering a better since of the opposition views. To close OI, in my opinion, would be to close one of the most important parts of the forum. I may be speaking for myself here but I feel OI has done much not only to make me better at debate but also a smarter more open-minded person.

[peaccenicked]

Thre is no debate. It is like talking to the Alf Garnett Brigade.
http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/tv/comedy/...y/tilldeath.htm (http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/tv/comedy/tilldeath.htm)

[Tkinter1]

Peacce is simply trying to mold the forum into the type of debate he wants.

[peaccenicked]

Close forum suggests no forum. Yeah you're right.

[peaccenicked]

''Alf blindly defended his beloved standards''
At least Alf was funny.

[Tkinter1]

Why don't you just not post here?

[peaccenicked]

I have anwered that in this thread already.