paradox for theists

[Dr Mindbender]

Most mainstream religions, like christianity teach that 'social ills' like pornography, alcohol homosexuality etc will stop us getting into 'heaven' if we practice these during our lives.

Why does the theist have the right to say what our idea of heaven should be? Maybe getting drunk and watching porno is my thing? Quite frankly if heaven is going to be like sitting in church for eternity i think i'll pass.

So lets say for the sake of argument i practice the religion to the tee when i die will god the barman be waiting for me with a tall cold frothy one and a dirty dvd? If so how does this work with the whiter than white code we are told to live by (even if we dont want to).

[pusher robot]

Most mainstream religions, like christianity teach that 'social ills' like pornography, alcohol homosexuality etc will stop us getting into 'heaven' if we practice these during our lives.



I think you're exaggerating your premise. Most mainstream religions treat alcohol as a mortal sin? I don't think so. Pornography is generally regarded as a vice - that is, something that appeals to our base impulses that may undermine our loftier goals, whatever they are. Vices are not mortal sins either. Homosexuality is a mixed bag, but not really an issue for 90% of the population.

[Random Precision]

I also don't know of any organized religion that endorses the idea that our afterlife will be based on our preferences in this life, or indeed be anything like this one.

[Lord Testicles]

Here is a real paradox for theists: Could God make a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?

[Dr Mindbender]

I also don't know of any organized religion that endorses the idea that our afterlife will be based on our preferences in this life, or indeed be anything like this one.

i find buddhism the least pretentious model because it makes no wild claims that the 'afterlife' is going to be any better than this life.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think you're exaggerating your premise. Most mainstream religions treat alcohol as a mortal sin? I don't think so. Pornography is generally regarded as a vice - that is, something that appeals to our base impulses that may undermine our loftier goals, whatever they are. Vices are not mortal sins either. Homosexuality is a mixed bag, but not really an issue for 90% of the population.

i think you're missing my point. If my idea of enjoyment and therefore paradise constitutes all the very rules that would prevent me from entering 'heaven' how could heaven equate to my idea of paradise unless it was completely contradictory?

I think mediocrity would be the best i could hope for, making god a very fraudulent salesman.

[Demogorgon]

i think you're missing my point. If my idea of enjoyment and therefore paradise constitutes all the very rules that would prevent me from entering 'heaven' how could heaven equate to my idea of paradise unless it was completely contradictory?

Because according to religion you would not have a physical body in heaven making physical pleasures a tad meaningless.

[pusher robot]

Because according to religion you would not have a physical body in heaven making physical pleasures a tad meaningless.

Additionally, I am challenging your contention that your "idea of enjoyment and therefore paradise constitutes all the very rules that would prevent me from entering 'heaven'" because most mainstream religions don't teach that you go to hell for drinking, gambling, and chronic masturbation. You go to hell for committing mortal sins, not vices.

[freakazoid]

i think you're missing my point. If my idea of enjoyment and therefore paradise constitutes all the very rules that would prevent me from entering 'heaven' how could heaven equate to my idea of paradise unless it was completely contradictory?

I think mediocrity would be the best i could hope for, making god a very fraudulent salesman.I think you will be awaken to a whole new perspective on things.


Here is a real paradox for theists: Could God make a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?

Now that is quite the paradox.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The idea behind religious control of pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, is the accumulation of frustration. A person who is sexually satisfied is less likely to debase themselves in worship of God as a substitute for healthy sexual relationship(s).

Consider the lyrics of an average Christian song:


I'm so very ordinary
Nothing special on my own
I have never walked on water
I have never calmed a storm
Sometimes I'm hiding away from the madness around me
Like a child who's afraid of the dark

CHORUS:
But when I call on Jesus
All things are possible
I can mount on wings like eagles and soar
When I call on Jesus
Mountains are gonna fall
'Cause He'll move heaven and earth to come rescue me when I call

lalalala....

Weary brother
Broken daughter
Widowed, widowed lover
You're not alone
If you're tired and scared of the madness around you
If you can't find the strength to carry on

CHORUS

Call Him in the mornin'
In the afternoon time
Late in the evenin'
He'll be there
When your heart is broken
And you feel discouraged
You can just remember that He said
He'll be there

CHORUS(2x)

lalalala....

Notice the debasement of the self: "I'm so very ordinary/Nothing special on my own" - and this is a mild example. Note also the similarities to a secular love song: "But when I call on Jesus/All things are possible". Feelings of love and closeness are redirected from real people to this imaginary father figure, and the worshipper is encouraged to feel small and inadequate at the same time. But due to the entirely ephemeral nature of this relationship, the worshipper never feels truly satisfied, and is thus encouraged to hurtle deeper into this parasitic relationship in an attempt to find true fulfillment.

Jesus isn't a cosmic Jewish zombie - he's a cosmic emotional vampire.

[Dust Bunnies]

Hm, not familiar with the song, whats its name, composer, year, etc.

[Apeiron]

Christianity isn't relativist, so this isn't a problem. The 'pleasures' you've mentioned are not considered to be of the highest good within Christianity; they are illusory, momentary 'pleasures of the flesh,' inferior in comparison to spiritual purity. Thus, sustained happiness is only achievable through absolute devotion to god, and hence a repudiation of earthly things. Since human beings are at their most essential 'souls,' not bodies, these bodily pleasures are meaningless in relation to the afterlife. The torment of hell is similarly spiritual, rather than bodily (at least in Catholic doctrine).

There are actually a number of paradoxes within Christianity that I've been considering recently that I just really cannot find any adequate answers for within Christian doctrine; number one being more or less a variation on 'why is there something rather than nothing?', which I know Leibniz attempts to tackle... I'm just not satisfied with his answer.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Hm, not familiar with the song, whats its name, composer, year, etc.

I got it from here (http://songbook.manueladam.com/ID/6bbfcc07-eb84-45be-b1f8-c1538690eb92/show.lyrics). Many more examples can be found on that site.

This one (http://songbook.manueladam.com/ID/98a42120-25c5-4a33-88c7-fba2cedda57e/show.lyrics) is even more obvious:


Quietly, I listen to Your voice
You’re whispering the mystery of You to me
I stand in awe as You reveal Your grace,
Now my life is Yours and I can see Your face

And I love You Lord
The more I see Your heart
You’re beautiful
You’ve loved me from the start

You are merciful yes You are good
Forever You are true it’s my joy to worship You

Cause all I have to give my Lord
Is just a broken heart

Words fail to show how great You are
In everything You’ve done

[Random Precision]

Here's some even better ones:

Don't ever leave me, Jesus. I couldn't stand to see you go.
My heart would simply snap, my Lord, if you walked on out that door.
I promise I'll be good to you, and keep you warm at night.
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, why don't we just... shut off the lights.

***

I'll take good care of you baby. Call you my baby, baby!
You died for my sins, and you know that I would die for you, right?
What's the matter, baby? You tremble at Jesus, baby!
Your love... is my life! You know when I’m without you, there's a black hole in my life! Oo-ohhh!
I wanna believe. It's all right, 'cause I get lonely in the night and it's up to you to
Save me! Jesus... baby!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Here's some even better ones:

[snip]

Now that just crosses the line into creepiness. :crying: