Jerusalem facts and Arab's denial

[Bodacious]

The territory of Israel (formerly “Palestine”), once known as Canaan, was inhabited historically by the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. It was only three times an independent state, and each time, a Jewish state. When Rome ruled over this area, they purposefully eliminated the name "Israel," and named it "Palestina" instead, in reference to a Philistine conquest about 1,080 B.C.E. This example was followed by the League of Nations in our days.

The first Jewish commonwealth was ended by the Babylonian conquest of 586 B.C.E. The second Jewish commonwealth, although besieged by shortlived conquests, endured until it became a Roman province, "Palestina," in 44 B.C.E. and eventually ceased under Roman conquest in 70 C.E. Since then there have been various foreign rulers and conquerors over this region, but no sovereign, independent state until 1948. Then the third Jewish commonwealth in the form of the modern state of Israel was birthed in one day, once again in the territory of former Canaan, which was promised to the patriarchs of Israel and is claimed by G-d to be His own Land and the portion of His heritage.

The Palestinians are, therefore, in dispute with the Almighty Himself --- not just with a nation of mere men, because this nation, and these men are “the armies of the Living G-d, which the Philistines/Palestinians are defying.

There never has been, in the entire history of this area, an independent sovereign state called Palestine. The Philistines themselves were a remnant from Caphtor known as Caphtorim, Cherethites or Casluhim (descended from Egypt, son of Ham) who invaded the coastal strip of Gaza, killed the Avvim living there and settled in their stead. Therefore the neighboring peoples called them “plishtim,” which means “invaders.” They lived in the region from Gaza to Ekron, from Lachish to Ziklak, calling it “Philistia.” Philistia extended along the short coastal strip from today's Raphla to Joppa/Jaffa, into the northen region of the Negev toward Beer-Sheva. This was the largest area of all of “Philistia/Palestine” the “plishtim/invaders/Philistines/Palestinians” ever held. By the time of the Roman Empire, they had long ceased to be a distinct national entity, having been destroyed and assimilated into other peoples
.
The Byzantines, Christian heirs of the Roman Empire, then ruled until the Arabs entered Palestine in 633 C.E. From 637 to 1071 C.E. all of Palestine was under the domination of Islam, ruled over not by local Arabs, but by the fiat of remote Caliphs, who either resided in Baghdad or Damascus. It is this era of the Arab's "glorious" past that they wish to restore and to which they refer when speaking of their intrinsic rights to this region, claiming that Palestine was given to them by Allah as a result of the "Jihad" in the 7th century, although even then no sovereign Palestinian nation had been created by them. Their dominion over this territory, which is to be the meeting place of all Moslem believers on the Day of Resurrection (this claim lies at the root of the recent Islamic fundamentalist involvement with PLO terrorist activities), lasted but a short period, while that of Jewish sovereignty endured over a 1,000 years.

In 1096 C.E. the first Crusade began. Crusaders, in the Name of Christ, pillaged Palestine until 1291 C.E., when the Arabs drove them out again. Various conquerors spoiled and desolated the region, until in 1517 C.E. Palestine became a province of the Turkish Empire and was made part of "Greater Syria." Under the Ottoman rule the land became utterly desolated and denuded, the ruling class living in great luxury and comfort, while the ordinary masses vegetated in darkest ignorance, illiteracy and starkest poverty. Yet, whether rich or poor, mighty or pauper, all identified themselves as "Moslem Syrians," not as “Palestinians.”

First of all, note that since the attack on the US represents the mindset of all terrorist groups, a call against all terrorism by President Bush is perfectly reasonable. Above all note that the attack on the US (a “second Israel”) is part of an overall plan for Islamic control of Jerusalem. It’s all about Jerusalem. Why Jerusalem? Consider the facts. Although Jerusalem is not strategically situated for commerce or military purposes, Muslims regard it as one of their most holy sights, even though Jerusalem is never mentioned once in the Koran. Not once. However, Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times in the Jewish Scriptures.




(Edited by Bodacious at 4:38 am on April 12, 2003)

[Zombie]

Boodacious, when you quote an article, have the decency to post its weblink.
I didn't think such an article could be written by you, and I was right.
Thank you,

Z.

[Bodacious]

Well since you asked nice and didn't bring my maw into it.

http://wordofmessiah.org/nov_2001_shmooze.htm

http://www.ortzion.org/Amalek_3.html

(Edited by Bodacious at 4:59 am on April 12, 2003)

[redstar2000]

"The Palestinians are, therefore, in dispute with the Almighty Himself..." -- Bodacious

If that were the case, I'd bet my entire net worth (US$2,500) on the Palestinians...except no one would be sucker enough to cover!

In case you didn't notice, Bodacious, the "Almighty" must have been off playing with "Himself" while the holocaust was taking place...or perhaps "He" liked the Germans better. :confused:

How do you expect to be taken seriously here, Bodacious, when you post nonsensical "god-babble" in justification of your position?

That Israel presently exists as a historical fact is not in dispute. That it's "national mythology" enjoys any kind of scholarly or political legitimacy is absurd. Modern Israelis are no more "descended" from ancient Hebrews than modern Canadians.

Given that a European people have conquered and presently hold a strip of formerly Arab land, the question is should that conquest be "recognized" as a new historical "given", as a practical fact that must be accepted?

There are arguments that can be made on both sides; but mythology is not one of them...on either side.

:cool:

[Bodacious]

How do you expect to be taken seriously - Red

A large portion of the recent post's are concerning Iraq , this thread was to clear up or try to some misbelief's of the region. God Babbling as you put it is what this is all about.
No Mythology just the fact's. I have a stong idea since you dont own a TV you dont own the Bible or the Koran either.The persecution of the Jew's is all in there.


European people have conquered and presently hold a strip of formerly Arab land

Once again if you would think before you talk , the Jews are from that land there is no European decent .

[redstar2000]

Bodacious, that is the most totally incoherent reply to one of my posts that I've seen so far.

I'll answer the only statement you made that makes any sense at all---no, I do not own a "Bible" or "Koran"...both documents are readily available on the internet.

Only a fool would deny the persecution of the Jews in modern times...but only a child believes "Bible Stories".

How old did you say you were?

:cool:

PS: Your signature is pretty weird. And your avatar certainly has unpleasant connotations. Perhaps some changes are in order.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 6:30 pm on April 12, 2003


but only a child believes "Bible Stories".


I see that post does not take into account any religious people...

But i do agree the guys an idiot.

However I support niether side they are both run by facists and supported by facists and capitalist/imperialist nations.

My main critisim of the Isreilys is the fact that to kill or capture 1 terrorist they see the need to kill 20 innocent civillians. My main problem with the Palistinians is that to kill there opposition they instead of killing military targets, strap explosives to them selves and walk in to public places and blow them selves up taking about 10-20 civillians with them.

The Arab Nations who support Pthe Palistinians. They placed about 100,000 Palistinians in refuge camps in the 40's-60's. Instead of putting them into socioty they made them stay there to put political pressure on the Isreil's. Now there are still several million Palistinians in refugee camps.

The Usa for giving loads of aid to the Isreilys and none to the Palistinians. What nice unbias folks. Dont you say.

[Bodacious]

Hey Red only one I see talking Bible stories here is you , if you cant make sense or contribute to the thread why not stfu ( thats shut the fuck up in english ).

AK47 , I disagree take a look at this link and tell me who's the real aggressor ... Whos the bully again? (http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html)



(Edited by Bodacious at 7:47 pm on April 12, 2003)

[Boris Moskovitz]

I won't be impolite Bodacious, you know I don't like you, but you can't link things from your computer.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Now that you've edited your post, I will post a reply...

The Jews are still teh bullies in my eyes, you see, they have nuclear warheads, if the Arabs wanted to bully the Jews, they would've taken back Israel a long time ago. It is not the size of a nation that tells its power, it is its simply its technology, military or economic, and many other things.

Israel has nuclear power, and its neighbors don't. It's just like in school, I only know like, about 5 bullies, and there are 650 students, you say the 645 are the bullies? Suuure, they are the threatened ones.

I think Red makes perfect sense, he just says you are a fool, there is nothing complex in that that you should explore, if you are not a moron. You see, I don't think Israel belongs to the Jews since it is a total past. The past has been erased.

I mean, if you say that, then you are a total hypocrite, don't you realise that if you say that a land that belonged to a society long ago, still belongs to it? If you say so, then doesn't America belong to the natives? Canada? Cuba? México? Bresil? Argentina? Chile? All of North and South America including Australia?

I gotta agree, the war in Israel is barbaric. And Sharon is no different from Adolf Hitler.

[Bodacious]

Well frist off I'm not here to be your friend only too tell you the truth from another angle. Amusing as you are it does frustrate me on your knowledge of the world.

Pakistan has Nuclear weapon's so that part of your respounce doesn't fly. And as far as the Arab's trying to take back Israel they tryed that already a few time's. I suggest you practice your typing skill's then go read up on your history , then come back and well talk somemore.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Didn't I said "the neighbors"? Pakistan is far away enough from Israel you fat glutonous pig. And don't patronize me, I know how to type, I just feel like typing fast and making a few typos, big deal, it's not like you are gonna die from it.

I already fuckin' know about it, and I also know India has nuclear power. No need to remind me about that, Pakistan can't really bully Israel since it is having a sort of cold war with India as you know. Those two countries are lopoking at each other like bad neighbors.

Thank you for not saying any unnecessary bullshit,
Boris

PS: When the fuck did I said we were gonna be friends? I only said I don't like you, that's all. And you can see the "truth" from another perspective, but I am keeping my own opinion.

EDIT: And ha-ha! You are telling me to learn how to type when you, yourself are making typos? Ass...

(Edited by Boris Moskovitz at 12:36 am on April 13, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Umm actually Bodacias right in some respects. The arab nations have invaded Isreil like 3-4 times. Its just that the Isreili's have a considerably more powerful airforce that they still exist.

But still killing loads of civillians as a deterant to Palistinian suicide bombing is immoral, but more importantly counter productive.

When Isreil was first created every one was happy. Then some leader died and the system fell to pieces. Whos to blaim i do not know, however i do no that in the 80-90's the Jews were prepaired to to give the palistinians the West Bank (thanks to Zombie) etc. To create a piece but the Arabs still bombed them, this as you can imagin really pissed of the Jews and it has never been resolved since. This suggests to me that the Arabs never wanted piece in the first place they were just out to destroy the jews. However the bombing of Eygipt before war had even broken out kind of suggests the Jews were not particularly up for piece either...


(Edited by AK47 at 12:30 am on April 13, 2003)

[Zombie]

When Isreil was first created every one was happy.
??? where did you get that ???

to give the palistinians the golan hights etc
the golan heights are syrian.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Zombie on 12:14 am on April 13, 2003
When Isreil was first created every one was happy.
??? where did you get that ???

to give the palistinians the golan hights etc
the golan heights are syrian.

??? where did you get that ???

A guy from my old school whos Grandfarther lived through it. I got it from the Grand Farther not the kid. Because the kid cant have lived through it. Unless you believe in reincarnation.

the golan heights are syrian.

LOL

whoops mind on other things, after all it is 12:25 AM, and 5 pints later. I meant the west bank.

It seems my mind is off on a wander.


(Edited by AK47 at 12:32 am on April 13, 2003)

[Totalitarian]

Modern genetic studies appear to show that ethnic Jews have partial ancestry from a line of descent stretching back to Palestine 5000 years ago.

Through their racial religion, Judaism, the Jews have maintained a cohesive ancestry and identity in spite of ceaseless persecution.

The Ashkenazim show some degree of admixture with European and Turkic (khazar) stock, yet are still genetically more similar to Sephardi Jews than they are to Europeans.

Does any of this validate the Zionist claim that a certain area of the middle east (in some accounts ranging from egypt to syria) is the exclusive racial homeland of the Jews?

Absolutely not.

Unless of course we accept the position of Nazis that Europe is the exclusive possession of Europeans, or that Africa is the exclusive land of Negros, or that south america belongs only to the South amerindians!

By making their absurd claims, Zionists are actually validating the ideology which lead to their widespread expulsion from Europe.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Bodacious on 4:34 am on April 12, 2003
The territory of Israel (formerly “Palestine”), once known as Canaan, was inhabited historically by the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. It was only three times an independent state, and each time, a Jewish state. When Rome ruled over this area, they purposefully eliminated the name "Israel," and named it "Palestina" instead, in reference to a Philistine conquest about 1,080 B.C.E. This example was followed by the League of Nations in our days.

The first Jewish commonwealth was ended by the Babylonian conquest of 586 B.C.E. The second Jewish commonwealth, although besieged by shortlived conquests, endured until it became a Roman province, "Palestina," in 44 B.C.E. and eventually ceased under Roman conquest in 70 C.E. Since then there have been various foreign rulers and conquerors over this region, but no sovereign, independent state until 1948. Then the third Jewish commonwealth in the form of the modern state of Israel was birthed in one day, once again in the territory of former Canaan, which was promised to the patriarchs of Israel and is claimed by G-d to be His own Land and the portion of His heritage.

The Palestinians are, therefore, in dispute with the Almighty Himself --- not just with a nation of mere men, because this nation, and these men are “the armies of the Living G-d, which the Philistines/Palestinians are defying.

There never has been, in the entire history of this area, an independent sovereign state called Palestine. The Philistines themselves were a remnant from Caphtor known as Caphtorim, Cherethites or Casluhim (descended from Egypt, son of Ham) who invaded the coastal strip of Gaza, killed the Avvim living there and settled in their stead. Therefore the neighboring peoples called them “plishtim,” which means “invaders.” They lived in the region from Gaza to Ekron, from Lachish to Ziklak, calling it “Philistia.” Philistia extended along the short coastal strip from today's Raphla to Joppa/Jaffa, into the northen region of the Negev toward Beer-Sheva. This was the largest area of all of “Philistia/Palestine” the “plishtim/invaders/Philistines/Palestinians” ever held. By the time of the Roman Empire, they had long ceased to be a distinct national entity, having been destroyed and assimilated into other peoples
.
The Byzantines, Christian heirs of the Roman Empire, then ruled until the Arabs entered Palestine in 633 C.E. From 637 to 1071 C.E. all of Palestine was under the domination of Islam, ruled over not by local Arabs, but by the fiat of remote Caliphs, who either resided in Baghdad or Damascus. It is this era of the Arab's "glorious" past that they wish to restore and to which they refer when speaking of their intrinsic rights to this region, claiming that Palestine was given to them by Allah as a result of the "Jihad" in the 7th century, although even then no sovereign Palestinian nation had been created by them. Their dominion over this territory, which is to be the meeting place of all Moslem believers on the Day of Resurrection (this claim lies at the root of the recent Islamic fundamentalist involvement with PLO terrorist activities), lasted but a short period, while that of Jewish sovereignty endured over a 1,000 years.

In 1096 C.E. the first Crusade began. Crusaders, in the Name of Christ, pillaged Palestine until 1291 C.E., when the Arabs drove them out again. Various conquerors spoiled and desolated the region, until in 1517 C.E. Palestine became a province of the Turkish Empire and was made part of "Greater Syria." Under the Ottoman rule the land became utterly desolated and denuded, the ruling class living in great luxury and comfort, while the ordinary masses vegetated in darkest ignorance, illiteracy and starkest poverty. Yet, whether rich or poor, mighty or pauper, all identified themselves as "Moslem Syrians," not as “Palestinians.”

First of all, note that since the attack on the US represents the mindset of all terrorist groups, a call against all terrorism by President Bush is perfectly reasonable. Above all note that the attack on the US (a “second Israel”) is part of an overall plan for Islamic control of Jerusalem. It’s all about Jerusalem. Why Jerusalem? Consider the facts. Although Jerusalem is not strategically situated for commerce or military purposes, Muslims regard it as one of their most holy sights, even though Jerusalem is never mentioned once in the Koran. Not once. However, Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times in the Jewish Scriptures.




(Edited by Bodacious at 4:38 am on April 12, 2003)


My compliments to this post, much things I didn't know about Isreal and Palestine. Too bad the source isn't very objective.

The article indicates that Palestine shouldn't be independant, because they have never been.

But I can see and believe that the Isreali's and Palestinians feel so far away from each other, that the Palestinians will never get equal chances under a Isreali/Zionist rule as under independant rule.

I think that to offer Palestinians some better chances in live than beeing hit by a bullet, and to let Isreal recognise that Palestinians are people, just like them. And every individual has the same basic needs as the Isreali's, they also need safety, food, shelter, water. There will be a independant Palestine state needed.

Altough my opinion.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Bodacious on 12:43 am on April 13, 2003
Hey Red only one I see talking Bible stories here is you , if you cant make sense or contribute to the thread why not stfu ( thats shut the fuck up in english ).

AK47 , I disagree take a look at this link and tell me who's the real aggressor ... Whos the bully again? (http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html)



(Edited by Bodacious at 7:47 pm on April 12, 2003)



No...you tell ME the aggressor....

http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resources/mrates.asp

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Boris Moskovitz on 1:30 am on April 13, 2003
Didn't I said "the neighbors"? Pakistan is far away enough from Israel you fat glutonous pig. And don't patronize me, I know how to type, I just feel like typing fast and making a few typos, big deal, it's not like you are gonna die from it.

I already fuckin' know about it, and I also know India has nuclear power. No need to remind me about that, Pakistan can't really bully Israel since it is having a sort of cold war with India as you know. Those two countries are lopoking at each other like bad neighbors.

Thank you for not saying any unnecessary bullshit,
Boris

PS: When the fuck did I said we were gonna be friends? I only said I don't like you, that's all. And you can see the "truth" from another perspective, but I am keeping my own opinion.

EDIT: And ha-ha! You are telling me to learn how to type when you, yourself are making typos? Ass...

(Edited by Boris Moskovitz at 12:36 am on April 13, 2003)


India is a nuclear power. Both power generation and weapons.

http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/India...ndiaNPower.html (http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/India/IndiaNPower.html)

They are also toying with the idea of pre-emptive strikes against Pakistan.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

On the other hand, Pakistan has nukes too.

See what intolerance causes.

[Umoja]

It's kinda funny how anyone would push religion as a reason, when the "Words of Allah" supercede the Jewish viewpoint regardless, and they are all taking about the same God fellow anyway.

[Bodacious]

Amazing. All I hear from you people is how a bully (this case 20 hostile Arab nation's) is picking on a peacefull nation blah blah. I laid it out for you in black and white and just because little old Israel is our ally you go agaisnt everything you preach.

Disgustapated all that link show's is Israel defending itself from a aggersor. You telling me you wouldn't attack if being attacked?The Arab's dont care about the land they want to annilate the Jew's plain and simple.


At Camp David, in the summer of 2000, then Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak offered the most generous concessions to Yasser Arafat that had ever been laid on the table. He offered him more than 90 percent of all the West Bank territory, sovereign control of it. There were some parts he did not want to offer, but in exchange for that he said he would give up land in Israel proper that the PLO had not even asked for. And he also did the unthinkable. He even spoke of dividing Jerusalem and allowing the Palestinians to have their capital there in the East. Yasser Arafat stormed out of the meeting. Why did he storm out of the meeting? Everything he had said he wanted was offered there.Source (http://wordofmessiah.org/seven_reasons.htm)

(Edited by Bodacious at 10:13 pm on April 16, 2003)

[abstractmentality]

Alex Fishman is the main commentator on security matters for Israel's largest mass circulation paper, Yediot Achronot, a publication with right-of-center politics. Fishman is known for his excellent contacts in the military. On Sunday, November 25, Fishman issued a prediction based on the recent assasination on November 23 by Israel's security services of the Hamas leader, Mahmud Abu Hunud. It was featured in a box on the newspaper's front page.

It began, "We again find ourselves preparing with dread for a new mass terrorist attack within the Green Line [Israel's pre-'67 border]." Since Fishman was entirely accurate in this regard, we should mark closely what he wrote next. "Whoever gave a green light to this act of liquidation knew full well that he is thereby shattering in one blow the gentleman's agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority; under that agreement, Hamas was to avoid in the near future suicide bombings inside the Green Line, of the kind perpetrated at the Dolphinarium [discotheque in Tel-Aviv]."

Fishman stated flatly that such an agreement did exist, even if neither the Palestinian Authority nor Hamas would admit to it in public. "It is a fact," he continued, " that, while the security services did accumulate repeated warnings of planned Hamas terrorist attacks within the Green Line, these did not materialize. That cannot be attributed solely to the Shabak's impressive success in intercepting the suicide bombers and their controllers. Rather, the respective leaderships of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas came to the understanding that it would be better not to play into Israel's hands by mass attacks on its population centres."

In other words Arafat had managed to convince Hamas to curb its suicide bombers. This understanding was shattered by the assassination of Abu Hunud. "Whoever decided upon the liquidation of Abu Hunud," Fishman continued, " knew in advance that that would be the price. The subject was extensively discussed both by Israel's military echelon and its political one, before it was decided to carry out the liquidation. Now, the security bodies assume that Hamas will embark on a concerted effort to carry out suicide bombings, and preparations are made accordingly." (http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburnisrael.html)

Alexander Cockburn

(Edited by abstractmentality at 2:45 pm on April 16, 2003)

[Totalitarian]

Bodacious:

The Arab's dont care about the land they want to annilate the Jew's plain and simple.


Bodacious, you act as though "the Arabs" are some monolithic group who all have the same opinion, which is clearly nonsensical.

The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. Your tribe practically invented genocide.

[Bodacious]

Bodacious, you act as though "the Arabs" are some monolithic group who all have the same opinion, which is clearly nonsensical.

The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. Your tribe practically invented genocide. - Totalitarian

I find it amusing and yet sad that most of you dont have a clue what's going on in the Middle East. Frist off your statement the Arab's not being a monolithic group who all have the same opinion is bullshit and ignorant.

What's the frist thing a Arab Country does when a foreigner set's foot on there soil ( could be a Westener or a Commie it make's no differrence to them )? I'll tell you what the One Billion of them do. They gather there camel's and scream Jihad it's the Mother of all Battle's! the infidel's are here!

The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. You are correct there the Jew's have through 100's of year's tryed to coexist in peace.

Your tribe practically invented genocide.Yeah? and your Tribe talk's out it's ass and not it's head.

[redstar2000]

"Modern genetic studies appear to show that ethnic Jews have partial ancestry from a line of descent stretching back to Palestine 5,000 years ago." -- Totalitarian

I'd like to see a link on that one...it seems a little far-fetched to me.

If the statement were worded differently..."stretching back 5,000 years to the Mediterranean/Near East"...I would find it more believable. I doubt very seriously that genetic studies could "pin it down" to Palestine specifically.

Bodacious, you have no credible evidence that the Arabs intend to "annihilate" the Jews, any more than they intend to "annihilate Europe".

That is as stupid as your comment about the Arabs challenging "the Almighty".

Indeed, looking over your posts in this thread, I'm not sure whether you want to be an Israeli nationalist or an American nationalist...perhaps both.

What is clear is that like most of the pro-capitalists on this board, your main response to critical argument is personal abuse...and you don't even do that very well.

In fact, you make "Balaam's Ass" look like an intellectual.

:cool:

[Bodacious]

Red you must have the skull as thick as a camels ass. There you go rattling off my comment's about the Almighty. Look dipshit I allready said this too you two time's , I didn't say that, it was in a link I posted.But if you think for one minute you can talk MiddleEast without talking some sort of Biblical history you are stupid.

And I dont abuse anyone that doesn't flame me frist. Take you, Boris , Pete and my old pal Zombie. Practice what you preach asshole.

Edit: and thank's for the Avatar sign you guy's rock! but that's Mr. Asshole to you boy.

(Edited by Bodacious at 6:27 pm on April 17, 2003)

[abstractmentality]

Letters to the New York Times
December 4, 1948

New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants — 240 men, women, and children — and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

Source (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/1948LetterNYT.html)

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from Bodacious on 4:08 pm on April 17, 2003
What's the frist thing a Arab Country does when a foreigner set's foot on there soil ( could be a Westener or a Commie it make's no differrence to them )? I'll tell you what the One Billion of them do. They gather there camel's and scream Jihad it's the Mother of all Battle's! the infidel's are here!

Funny that. My cousin used to work in Saudi Arabia, and nothing remotely similar to this ever happened.




The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. You are correct there the Jew's have through 100's of year's tryed to coexist in peace.

Certainly some of the time, but in the Torah there is multiple accounts of massacres. Is this an example of peaceful co-existence?



(Edited by Totalitarian at 12:25 pm on April 18, 2003)

[Totalitarian]

RedStar2000:

Here are some links to chew on, regarding the ancestry of Jews >

http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and...f_tradition.htm (http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm)
Jewish tradition, based on the Torah, is that all Kohanim are direct descendants of Aharon, the original Kohen. The line of the Kohanim is patrilineal: it has been passed from father to son without interruption from Aharon, for 3,300 years, or more than 100 generations.

http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and...na_evidence.htm (http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/jewish_genes_-_dna_evidence.htm)
Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics – the study of DNA sequences – indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry


http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
Info on Ashkenazi Jews

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/11...11104471200.htm (http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/11/11/stories/2002111104471200.htm)
This news item reports that a group of Indian Jews are rejecting efforts by US & Israeli scientists to check their DNA to see how much Jewish ancestry they have

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,...3,16272,00.html (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,16272,00.html)
Meanwhile, the Israeli weapons folk are trying to build an "ethnic bomb" to target genetic traits particular to Arabs

Oh, and when i meant "Palestine" i was talking about the traditional area which includes much of the Middle East







(Edited by Totalitarian at 12:47 pm on April 18, 2003)

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Bodacious on 9:08 pm on April 17, 2003

Bodacious, you act as though "the Arabs" are some monolithic group who all have the same opinion, which is clearly nonsensical.

The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. Your tribe practically invented genocide. - Totalitarian

I find it amusing and yet sad that most of you dont have a clue what's going on in the Middle East. Frist off your statement the Arab's not being a monolithic group who all have the same opinion is bullshit and ignorant.

What's the frist thing a Arab Country does when a foreigner set's foot on there soil ( could be a Westener or a Commie it make's no differrence to them )? I'll tell you what the One Billion of them do. They gather there camel's and scream Jihad it's the Mother of all Battle's! the infidel's are here!

The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. You are correct there the Jew's have through 100's of year's tryed to coexist in peace.

Your tribe practically invented genocide.Yeah? and your Tribe talk's out it's ass and not it's head.


I have a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 2 years (and that's a closed society), and he enjoyed it thoroughly. He never felt unsafe or unwelcomed. Nice try though Bodacious.

[redstar2000]

Totalitarian, your links regarding Jewish ancestry are provocative but not yet definitive. Pending studies of mtDNA, I'm inclined to reserve judgment on the question.

And I'm not sure if such a proposition turned out to be true how much it would really weaken my argument. I'd have to give up the phrase "modern Israelis are no more descended from ancient Hebrews than modern Canadians". But it would still be a case of "cultural" Europeans taking over a strip of land from non-Europeans...a small recent version of what happened on a large scale in North America or Australia/New Zealand in the 19th century.

On the question of the Israelis attempting to devise a virus that would "attack Arabs" while leaving "Jews" unaffected...I'm afraid that is too absurd to be seriously considered. Since all humans share upwards of 99% of their genes, I don't believe it is scientifically possible to "pull that off"...and I think Israeli scientists would tell their civilian-military bosses that.

But it's a good story to "plant"...scare the hell out of the Arabs, if they're dumb enough to fall for it.

:cool:

[Bodacious]

I have a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 2 years (and that's a closed society), and he enjoyed it thoroughly. He never felt unsafe or unwelcomed. Nice try though Bodacious. - Disgustapated

I stand corrected you are a Middle Eastener scholar. Hey I had a friend's who's Uncle's sister-in-law's Daddy said that his Great Grandmaw's late brother's Aunt said that there Grandpaw came from the Middle East too. And he said it sucked no beer.

Another big fucking yawn , stop boring me to death punk , either post something worth my time to read or bug off.

[Chiak47]

LMAO...

I have a friend who said fat women make the best lovers...

Thanks,
Cleaning the keyboard

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 5:54 pm on April 18, 2003
LMAO...

I have a friend who said fat women make the best lovers...

Thanks,
Cleaning the keyboard

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA capitalist sence of hummer. LOL

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Bodacious on 10:36 pm on April 18, 2003

I have a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 2 years (and that's a closed society), and he enjoyed it thoroughly. He never felt unsafe or unwelcomed. Nice try though Bodacious. - Disgustapated

I stand corrected you are a Middle Eastener scholar. Hey I had a friend's who's Uncle's sister-in-law's Daddy said that his Great Grandmaw's late brother's Aunt said that there Grandpaw came from the Middle East too. And he said it sucked no beer.

Another big fucking yawn , stop boring me to death punk , either post something worth my time to read or bug off.



Sorry, I didn't know you were going to indict my statement. His name was Arthur, he worked for Raytheon in Jedah. Do you need his Social Security # and address?

Oh gee...I'm sorry to offend. I had forgotten that you were an authority on everything. If you're gonna make half assed statements like "if you set one foot in..blah, blah, blah there's a jihad" At least provide proof that thats the case instead of your pathetic attempt at supreme world knowledge.

I suppose it is difficult for you to realize that some people actually have real human friends, unlike you who probably calls the dog that licks peanut butter off his balls "friend".

You have yet to post anything worth reading.

Don't you have to go...you're mommy should be calling you for naptime now.

[Zombie]

My uncle and his family lived in Saudi Arabia for more or less 22 years, he works for the Swiss Embassy. Whenever i inquire about the living status over there in Saudi, he curses it and never says anything good about it. Yes, money is good if you hold an important job there, but social life is almost non-existant, everything even the internet is censored to a suffocating level, and weather is a killer all year round.
Basically, if you're a bachelor running after money, go work there, but if you're after a good social and family environment, don't dream too much.
He always talks of coming back to Lebanon, but the current political and economical situation isn't giving him the green light.

Bodacious no need to throw insults like that, everyone's entitled to their opinion.
I just gave mine, will you slash it to death like always?

Z.

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 5:23 pm on April 18, 2003
Totalitarian, your links regarding Jewish ancestry are provocative but not yet definitive. Pending studies of mtDNA, I'm inclined to reserve judgment on the question.

What those links confirm is that Judaism is a racial religion and racial purity is considered important to many Jews (the unique genetic material of the Cohenim "tribe" is highly valued because of its supposed "purity")


But it would still be a case of "cultural" Europeans taking over a strip of land from non-Europeans...a small recent version of what happened on a large scale in North America or Australia/New Zealand in the 19th century.

Jews, on the whole, are not culturally European. They are mostly of Middle Eastern Semitic origin, with some Turko-mongolic (Khazar) and European ancestry. Jews tend to be big on the idea of maintaining uniquely Jewish culture, even if they are atheist/agnostic Jews.


On the question of the Israelis attempting to devise a virus that would "attack Arabs" while leaving "Jews" unaffected...I'm afraid that is too absurd to be seriously considered. Since all humans share upwards of 99% of their genes, I don't believe it is scientifically possible to "pull that off"...and I think Israeli scientists would tell their civilian-military bosses that.

According to my knowledge we share something like 98% of our DNA with the chimpanzee. The main four human races are about 99.99% the same genetically.

However, there are 10s of thousands of genes, according to scientists. A 0.001% difference might still mean a difference in hundreds of genes. We do know that there are racial genetic variation, however slight.

Given the great interest of many Jewish scientists in finding out what is unique about Jewish bloodline (and considering the racial emphasis of Judaism, a 5000 year tribal religion), I'm sure they have managed to pin down at least a few genes that make them unique. There's a degenerative genetic disease called Tay-Sachs, which apparently occurs only in Ashkenazi Jews. What other explanation for is there for this other than Ashkenazi on average having certain unique genes?





(Edited by Totalitarian at 3:30 pm on April 19, 2003)

[redstar2000]

"Jews on the whole are not culturally European."

Here I must disagree firmly. Outside of those Jews who lived in North Africa or the Near East as of, say, 1900 or so...I think it's very clear that the rest of the world's Jews had absorbed European culture more or less.

The "eastern European Jews" that were so frightening and repulsive to the young Hitler as well as Austro-German anti-semites, were simply living as almost everyone who wasn't a noble lived in the European Middle Ages.

Western European Jews as well as those in the western hemisphere lived pretty much like their class counterparts in those countries, had the same ideas, read the same books, listened to the same music, etc. Poor Jews were, in some cases, lefties; rich Jews were, in most cases, righties.

Culture isn't genetic, Totalitarian...which seems to be what you are hinting at. And only a tiny number of Jews are interested in "purity of blood"...as if there were such a thing.

:cool:

[Guest1]

Quote: from Bodacious on 9:08 pm on April 17, 2003

I find it amusing and yet sad that most of you dont have a clue what's going on in the Middle East. Frist off your statement the Arab's not being a monolithic group who all have the same opinion is bullshit and ignorant.

What's the frist thing a Arab Country does when a foreigner set's foot on there soil ( could be a Westener or a Commie it make's no differrence to them )? I'll tell you what the One Billion of them do. They gather there camel's and scream Jihad it's the Mother of all Battle's! the infidel's are here!

The history of Judaism is one of racial war and ethnic cleansing. You are correct there the Jew's have through 100's of year's tryed to coexist in peace.

Your tribe practically invented genocide.Yeah? and your Tribe talk's out it's ass and not it's head.


Wow, It feels good to be a part of a monolith with only one opinion.

we are the monolith. we shall go jihad all over your western asses.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 12:47 am on April 20, 2003)

[Totalitarian]

RedStar2000:

Sure culture is genetic. For example, the difference between human and chimpanzee culture is due in most part to our genes.

Humans are much freer to mold their culture as they see fit, but in general i would expect behaviour to differ across racial clines on average in a similar way to other species.

[redstar2000]

Did you ever have the experience of talking to someone only to have them say something that suddenly revealed a world-view so at variance with your own that you were just stunned into silence?

Like you're talking to someone about ordinary stuff and they suddenly mention that they spent last night hanging out with "Jesus"...or they mention the time they spent being anally probed on a flying saucer?!?!?

So, to totalitarian's last post...

"Sure, culture is genetic." Why? Because the difference between chimpanzee culture and human culture is "because" of our genetic differences.

Well, sure. Different species are reasonably likely to have dramatically different "cultures".

What does that have to do with cultural differences in members of the same species?

Totalitarian goes on to say that he expects "behavior to differ across racial clines..."

I actually had to go look that up: a "racial cline" is a changing slope of distribution depending on what proportions of given "races" are present in individuals or groups...I guess!

From the standpoint of modern science, this is utter gibberish. "Race" is no longer considered a meaningful concept in science any longer; it was abandoned when it became obvious that it doesn't explain anything. It is as outdated as phlogiston.

My guess is that totalitarian would proceed to argue that the Jews are a "race" and their culture is "genetic".

I have little choice but to "drop out" of the discussion at this point; it would be like arguing with a German "racial scientist" of the 1930s...or a medieval pope.

There wouldn't be any point.

:cool:

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from Totalitarian on 1:23 am on April 20, 2003
RedStar2000:

Sure culture is genetic. For example, the difference between human and chimpanzee culture is due in most part to our genes.

Humans are much freer to mold their culture as they see fit, but in general i would expect behaviour to differ across racial clines on average in a similar way to other species.


i would suggest you look up the definition of "culture" in just about any dictionary. culture is hardly "genetic," but rather "[a] particular form or type of intellectual development" (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00055636?query_type=word&queryword=culture&edition=2e&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=ro4A-xkJDLC-3011&hilite=00055636), according to one of the definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary. i dont have much more to say, other than one of the first things my cultural anthropology professor said to us on the first day of class: "Culture is not genetic, but rather something that is learned..."

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:18 pm on April 20, 2003
Well, sure. Different species are reasonably likely to have dramatically different "cultures".

What does that have to do with cultural differences in members of the same species?

Different sub-species of chimpanzee will also exhibit behavioural differences. One would expect the same with human sub-species.

From the standpoint of modern science, this is utter gibberish. "Race" is no longer considered a meaningful concept in science any longer; it was abandoned when it became obvious that it doesn't explain anything. It is as outdated as phlogiston.

That depends entirely on how you define "race". It is still used in a sociological sense, to describe groups of people who differ based on recognisable physical features.


My guess is that totalitarian would proceed to argue that the Jews are a "race" and their culture is "genetic".

Jews can be considered a race in some respects, and a religion in others. They combine aspects of both.

If you are going to respond (which you say you will not do), please provide a definition of race.

In my opinion, a race is a very large extended family which traditionally inbreeds > so the word can apply to large groups like europeans, arabs or smaller "races" such as amish and hutu.



(Edited by Totalitarian at 11:33 am on April 21, 2003)

[Guest1]

This is crazy. Culture is absolutely not genetic, you have american culture, Syrian culture, Chinese culture, and immigrants adopt the culture wherever they go while keeping a part of the culture they began with in their previous home. They aren't BORN with a culture, they learn it from their environment.

This is a scary concept my friend. And religion and race are two distinctly different things. You can have a Yemeni Jew, his race is Yemeni, his religion is Judaism.

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 12:41 am on April 22, 2003
This is crazy. Culture is absolutely not genetic, you have american culture, Syrian culture, Chinese culture, and immigrants adopt the culture wherever they go while keeping a part of the culture they began with in their previous home. They aren't BORN with a culture, they learn it from their environment.


Yeah, but someone can be born with predisposition to certain behaviour for example; a gene for aggression has recently been discovered.