Learning the Ways [Archive]

Kassad

7th October 2008, 18:23

#FF0000

7th October 2008, 19:58

Those corporations simply do not exist under communism. Rather, the tools those corporations had at their disposal (Transport trucks, machinery, buildings, land, etc. etc.) are made public for the use of the community.

As for a reading list, you can start with some of the stickies at the top of this forum. For a bit more reading, you can look into the classics o' Marxism

1. The Communist Manifesto (Of course)
2. Critique of the Gotha Programme
3. Capital
4. The State and Revolution.
5. Revolution Betrayed

That's a start in Marxism, Marxist Leninism, and Trotskyism. I suggest you read Lenin before Trotsky. If you want to learn a bit more about Anarchism, I suggest

1. The Conquest Of Bread by Pyotr Kropotkin
2. Malatesta: Life and Ideas (this one's a bit hard to find nowadays, so just look for Malatesta's collected essays online)
3. The ABC of Anarchism by Alexander Berkman
4. Anarcho-Syndicalism: Theory and Practice by Rudolph Rocker.

Some links to help you along as well:
In Defence Of Marxism (www.marxist.com)
Marxists Internet Archive (www.marxists.org)
The Anarchist FAQ (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html)

revolution inaction

7th October 2008, 20:07

Okay, I'm kind of new to all this and am looking to gain some understanding of the leftist movement. I can easily say that I have a broad understanding of its core ideals, but I am shady on some aspects.

First off, this is just a question for someone who doesn't completely understand. In a Communist/Socialist state, the private sector is nationalized. What I don't understand is how a Communist state, having no government, controls these corporations? Who owns them? Who controls them and keeps them functioning?

I would say there would be no communist or socialist state either.
The private sector is not nationalised, the workers take control of there work places (assuming they work doing something socially useful, if not it is shut down) in these work places they form councils of all the workers to organise production. Then all the councils in all the different workplaces form a federation to organise production.

Secondly, is there any way I could get a brief 5-10 book reading list of must-reads? These can be varying ideologically or any different topic, but what are five or so books that I must read to understand and grasp the movement?

This is difficult, there is not one movement, there is however lots of stuff online.
This thread has links to several things worth reading (http://www.revleft.com/vb/queries-theory-t83290/index.html)

Also libcom (libcom.org) has a great library

Lastly, for me as an American, how can I make a difference? In all honesty, I plan on attempting to get involved in government and elected office to make the change I seek. Do you support this, criticize this or have alternatives?

I think you can make a difference, but not in that way, it is basically impossible to make real change through government.
Instead you should try and organise at your work place and in your community.

#FF0000

7th October 2008, 20:10

Lastly, for me as an American, how can I make a difference? In all honesty, I plan on attempting to get involved in government and elected office to make the change I seek. Do you support this, criticize this or have alternatives?

As an Anarchist, no, I don't support it. I suggest getting involved at the community level. Find some organization to join and get involved with.

I don't think all Marxists would oppose going into government, though. Maybe take a look at the Socialist Party USA?

Kassad

8th October 2008, 12:44

I don't think all Marxists would oppose going into government, though. Maybe take a look at the Socialist Party USA?

Well, the only problem with the Socialist Party or any other third party is electability. If you run third party, the chances of getting elected are very tiny. Though I would hate submitting to party politics, that seems like the only choice. If running for government, that is.

Thank you all for your input. I will definitely look into some of this.

#FF0000

8th October 2008, 21:47

Well, the only problem with the Socialist Party or any other third party is electability. If you run third party, the chances of getting elected are very tiny. Though I would hate submitting to party politics, that seems like the only choice. If running for government, that is.

Don't expect any support from Anarchists or Marxists, then. Communists generally oppose getting involved with a "bourgeois" party such as the Democrats or Republicans. As it is, I believe most state socialists only believe in parliamentary partcipiation as a means of propaganda; just as a means to the end, with that end being an armed revolution.

I think, if you are so worried about electability, you should run for a lesser office. Perhaps as a state representative or even just a mayor at first?

Oneironaut

8th October 2008, 22:46

First off, this is just a question for someone who doesn't completely understand. In a Communist/Socialist state, the private sector is nationalized. What I don't understand is how a Communist state, having no government, controls these corporations? Who owns them? Who controls them and keeps them functioning?

Marxists view that before a government can ever wither away (communism), a socialist transitional government must be in place. This government is entirely in the hands of workers (proletariat) and must be run democratically. You may have heard the term "Dictatorship of the proletariat" which may come off as undemocratic (dictatorship) but all this intends to say is that the interest of capitalists are not taken into account.. Under worker control, there will no longer exist the enormous contradiction that currently exists under capitalism: socialized means of production with private appropriation. Workers will gain the power to appropriate goods according to needs of communities and the individuals that comprise communities.

A socialist's government (a workers' government) job is to address the needs of the communities in their relations to other communities that comprise a socialist state and direct material goods to where they are needed.

This period of workers' government will last for as long as it must. There will come a foreseeable point however when society will reach a level of equality and collectivity that the government's purpose will have been served and it can now wither away without sacrificing the socialist revolution. This is what we call communism.

This however, is just one point of view. You will come across many other points of view on this thread. We share the same beliefs of a society where humans will become truly humans- our species powers will be no longer be hindered by capitalism- we just disagree on how to get there.

Secondly, is there any way I could get a brief 5-10 book reading list of must-reads? These can be varying ideologically or any different topic, but what are five or so books that I must read to understand and grasp the movement?

I would recommend these to you-
The Marx-Engels Reader
Alienation- Marx's Conception of Man in Capitalist Society- Bertell Ollman
The State and Revolution- Lenin

Lastly, for me as an American, how can I make a difference? In all honesty, I plan on attempting to get involved in government and elected office to make the change I seek. Do you support this, criticize this or have alternatives?

Me too! I would not take the road are planning- the government of the united states and all of its institutions is our enemy. if you ever found yourself in the position of having a role in that very government, you would comprise your leftist beliefs until they would cease to exist anymore. To have significant change, the change that we all need, we must fight for revolution and not reform. I myself am in labor organizing training.

Niccolò Rossi

8th October 2008, 22:57

In a Communist/Socialist state, the private sector is nationalized. What I don't understand is how a Communist state, having no government, controls these corporations? Who owns them? Who controls them and keeps them functioning?

There's a couple of things that need to be said here.

Firstly the term "communist state" is a contradiction. Communism is by it's definition stateless.

Secondly, Socialism is not merely the nationalisation of private property, it is it's socialisation and abolition.

Thirdly, there is a difference between the state and administrative government (both of which will appear different in form in a socialist society because of the change in the function they serve). What Marxist mean by the state is that institution (or series of institutions) who's purpose is the exercise the rule of one class over another/others. Thus when Marxists refer to the withering away of the state, what they really mean is the withering away of the function of class oppression leaving behind only the structures of administrative "government". In the words of Engels:
All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear [scomparirano] as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. - On Authority

State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then withers away of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. - Anti-Duhring
I think this answers you question, but if you would like to know more you may be interested in reading The Death of the State in Marx and Engels (http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1970/xx/state.html) by Hal Draper

Secondly, is there any way I could get a brief 5-10 book reading list of must-reads? These can be varying ideologically or any different topic, but what are five or so books that I must read to understand and grasp the movement?

Assuming you've read some sort of second hand biography or introduction to Marx and Engels or the Socialist movement historically I would recommend the following:

A Ruthless Criticism of Everything Existing (Letter to Ruge) (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/letters/43_09.htm)
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844 (only the chapters: Estranged Labour (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm) and Private Property and Communism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm)
Contribution to a Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right: Introduction (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm) (This is one of my all time favourites, Marx's writing at it's best)
Society and Economy in History (Letter to Annenkov) (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1846/letters/46_12_28.htm)
These on Feuerbach (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/index.htm)
German Ideology: Part One (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01.htm)
Wage Labour and Capital (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)
Manifesto of the Communist Party (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm)
Principle of Communism (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm)
Critique of the Gotha Program (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/index.htm)
Marx debates Bakunin's Statism and Anarchy (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/04/bakunin-notes.htm)
Civil War in France (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/index.htm) (specifically the chapter: The Paris Commune)
Socialism Utopian and Scientific (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm)
On Authority (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm)
On Historical Materialism (Letter to Bloch and Letter to Starkenburg) (http://www.anonym.to/?http://marxists.kgprog.com/history/etol/newspape/ni/vol01/no03/engels.htm#na)

All of these and more can be found in the Marxist Internet Archive (www.marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org)) and also in selections such as the Marx-Engels Reader by Robert C. Tucker.

You will notice that in the above I have only recommended Marx and Engels. This is because I think it essential that you familiarise yourself with their theories and mode of thought before moving on and also because Marx and Engels are the least common denominator amongst all Marxists (even some Anarchists).

Lastly, for me as an American, how can I make a difference? In all honesty, I plan on attempting to get involved in government and elected office to make the change I seek. Do you support this, criticise this or have alternatives?

I like I most on the board believe that this is a an ineffective tactic and can not possibly lead to the realisation of socialism. However I believe this desrves a thread of it's own [of which many have sprung up in the past (matter of fact, one is open right now)].

Kassad

9th October 2008, 14:23

First of all, thank you. One of the first steps to understanding the movement is getting over some of the stereotypes associated with the left, socialism, communism and the like. I appreciate you all taking the time to clear these up for me.

Secondly, I will definitely read some of these suggestions. I've also been hooked to www.Marxists.org (http://www.Marxists.org) and have actually gotten in trouble in school a couple times for spending too much time on it. It's a great resource.

Lastly, I've always had three paths I planned to follow in my life. I will go to college in a year and work to get a PhD in political science. From there, I had either planned to get a job in the military (this dream is long gone, as I will never serve the imperialist needs of the United States), run for office and eventually work towards the US Congress or attempt to become a college professor of political science or economics. The last two are where I am slightly undecided.

I don't know. I haven't developed a hatred for my country like some have and I wish every day that we could reform it into a more logical, friendly and economically sound nation. Still, as the future continues, it's becoming obvious that we may continue to support failed policies all the way to the grave.

Again, I thank you all for your input.

Oneironaut

9th October 2008, 18:06

Lastly, I've always had three paths I planned to follow in my life. I will go to college in a year and work to get a PhD in political science. From there, I had either planned to get a job in the military (this dream is long gone, as I will never serve the imperialist needs of the United States), run for office and eventually work towards the US Congress or attempt to become a college professor of political science or economics. The last two are where I am slightly undecided.

I've always wanted to be an econ professor! The econ professors at my university are a bunch of cappie whack jobs.

I don't know. I haven't developed a hatred for my country like some have and I wish every day that we could reform it into a more logical, friendly and economically sound nation. Still, as the future continues, it's becoming obvious that we may continue to support failed policies all the way to the grave.

It won't be long until you become entirely disenfranchised with the U$A's political system.

Again, I thank you all for your input.

You're very welcome. Any questions you may have please don't hesitate to post.