good thing the bailout bill was passed...

[RadioRaheem84]

Or maybe not....


Investors around the world have come to the sobering realization that the Bush administration's $700 billion rescue plan won't work quickly to unfreeze the credit markets.http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081006/wall_street.html

[bayano]

The DOW was down by 370 points today at the end of training, after a drop of 800 earlier in the day. Toronto's SE dropped by 600 at one point. More than three thousand companies saw shares fall in the NYSE with only a little over a hundred seeing rises.


Some of the liberals in Congress said the stock drops after the initial vote against the bail-out was their reason for switching sides this time. Looks like it didn't work, suckers.

[BraneMatter]

All that money handed out at the Fed window, and by the European and Asian central banks and governments... well, word is the banks are just depositing that money and sitting on it! Just as predicted. They are gonna shield themselves with capital until the sharks stop circling.

Credit is still clogged, and the LIBOR is holding steady at 4.29%. Look for a bigger selloff to come down the line somewhere.

A friend of mine went by his bank today, and he asked how many home loans the bank had made this past month. The lady told him five.

[RadioRaheem84]

All that money handed out at the Fed window, and by the European and Asian central banks and governments... well, word is the banks are just depositing that money and sitting on it! Just as predicted. They are gonna shield themselves with capital until the sharks stop circling.

Credit is still clogged, and the LIBOR is holding steady at 4.29%. Look for a bigger selloff to come down the line somewhere.

A friend of mine went by his bank today, and he asked how many home loans the bank had made this past month. The lady told him five.

This bailout didn't fix squat! The bankers just ran off with boatloads of our money! The Euro is already tipping. The only dollar holding steady is the Yen! The return of the frickin' Yen!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_go_co/meltdown_lehman

Look at this link. Apparently, Lehman Brothers tried to get a bit of that government cheese in order to give it to their fired CEOs! Imagine. How are we so sure this won't happen with the firms that did receive bailout dough?
And Paulson wanted little to no oversight!

[KurtFF8]

It certainly seems that the bailout has a very real possibility of being a failure. Even if it is a success: people (of the "mainstream") are already starting to rethink NeoLiberalism. The problem here however is that many (Especially on the Democratic "left" in the US) will likely turn to social democracy instead of socialism, but in the end it will become clear that no amount of bailouts or reforms can make this system of private ownership really work out for the majority. Granted there are some social democratic reforms that would be benefitial to the working class (universal healthcare, free schooling, etc.) but I doubt those things will come to America any time soon.

[Sendo]

"success"? Define success.

even if it is successful, it still sucks. I'd rather have capitalism fall on its face and be replaced than have this mess limp on. A success means that capital is willing to continue running an economy and unfreeze itself, with the expectation that some goodies will be kicked down to the masses.

Don't hold your breath. I want to see the whole fucker go down, then maybe my family will be cleared of my student debt (impossible to go bankrupt on, thanks to Clinton in 1998). I want to see the whole thing go down, Fight Club style, just all of Wall Street come down. Only difference being, I don't care if the managers and stockholders are inside at the time. Actually, I'd prefer it that way.

[KurtFF8]

I used "success" in the context of the goals of the bailout: stabilize the economy, help the top not collapse.

Granted neither outcome is exactly what we (as the "left") really wants. One on hand, the bailout works in making the system stable again, and we continue down a path of neoliberalism. The other scenario is that the system has to take on social democratic reforms to last, which would be the end of neoliberalism. That part would be good indeed but the contradictions of capitalism would of course still remain.

[Psy]

I used "success" in the context of the goals of the bailout: stabilize the economy, help the top not collapse.

Granted neither outcome is exactly what we (as the "left") really wants. One on hand, the bailout works in making the system stable again, and we continue down a path of neoliberalism. The other scenario is that the system has to take on social democratic reforms to last, which would be the end of neoliberalism. That part would be good indeed but the contradictions of capitalism would of course still remain.
The Bush admin has recently threw away the Posse Comitatus Act saying the US Army now can be used to restore order in the USA in periods of public unrest and there is now a US Army brigrade that has been assigned to fighting domestic unrest if/when there is domestic unrest. This is clear indication that the ruling class no longer feels secure and we are screaming toward the same situation in Argentina 2002 yet this time I don't think the US bourgeoisie will hesitate to use the US army as stick against the American workers to get American workers in line.

[Sendo]

people need to get ready for war, definite class war. It won't come in battlefields and tanks, but it's war all the same. We should know the stakes and be willing to do things we thought we would (by we I mean working people, not just revleft.com). This means strikes, rallies and beyond. The army coming home to control is really scary, but damn it we Americans shouldn't go down without a fight. I don't want to see the fourth reich come. I don't think I'm being paranoid either. So much is left unreported in corporate news. I'll add that Nazi Germany in the early 1930s didn't look much different than the current situation.

Differences being: the state isn't as powerful or as militarized (but the surveillance is better) and the persecution of minorities is not nearly as intense; the people are much more civilized and resistant to these changes.

But in many ways, we are going the way of many empires of old as they approached a climax and go down in a blaze. We look like Rome, like the European powers who lost their empires after WWII, we look like imperial japan, we look like a Chinese dynasty on its way out, the list goes on...

PS: I heard the spending of the bailout will be privatized but won't really go into any effect until after the election. Apparently the GOP is gambling on MCCain to seize credit for plugging the bailout earlier and that Obama's (fictional) pussyfooting caused the disaster. I don't think it will pay off, though.

PPS: The congressional committees are openly disrespected at every turn, we have a de facto unitary executive. AIG guys blew some of their bailout money on some extravagant vacation recently.

[Bilan]

Watch out, America...

[ckaihatsu]

The optimist in me says that world public opinion will have shifted so much as a result of living through this shit-mess that it will *never* tolerate capitalist financial management *ever again*.

All the standing armies in the world can't do shit about a sea change in public opinion -- workers can still work in factories and workplaces (the means of mass production), but after all this the common person might develop a permanent tic upon hearing of *anything* financial, and for the future may just want to see a more direct producer-to-consumer pipeline for basic, no-frills goods and services.

Corporations, and now governments, too, are trying to present a coordinated game face against the maelstrom, but it's obviously ineffectual against the collapse of the towering house of cards of credit.

With no profit left to be had in anything, but the shit's still there, just lying there, maybe everything will just turn into a gigantic yard sale, with people stepping up to take whatever they feel actually drawn to, and would care for.

We could start over, in a global no-bullshit zone, and pick up the pieces and see what fits together....


Chris





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[Reclaimed Dasein]

It's deeply unfortunate that the United States doesn't have a large and active Left to articulate this as a systemic failure of capitalism.

[Plagueround]

It's deeply unfortunate that the United States doesn't have a large and active Left to articulate this as a systemic failure of capitalism.

If anything, we have to constantly fight the notion that this collapse isn't the result of "socialist do-gooders" and "the left wing" simply because Bill Clinton (the mainstream's idea of the left) signed some of the bills that helped cause this in 1999. :(

However, throughout all of this, I've been able to get many people who would have never listened to me before to at least consider my point of view...a few of which will probably be leaning further left than they ever have.

[peaccenicked]

The bailout is a failure by all accounts. Wall street is bust (http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/10/07/the-wall-street-bust/).
Watch out for martial law.

[Psy]

It's deeply unfortunate that the United States doesn't have a large and active Left to articulate this as a systemic failure of capitalism.
It would be more unfortunate if don't teach the proletariat about Buenos Aires 2002 and Paris 1968 as we won't have the luxury of learning the same lessons the hard way, the biggest is if we occupy means of production for fucks sake don't compromise as the ruling class will promise anything to prevent a revolution.

[RadioRaheem84]

The optimist in me says that world public opinion will have shifted so much as a result of living through this shit-mess that it will *never* tolerate capitalist financial management *ever again*.

Well, the public was against the Lassiez-Faire model from the 30s on down to the late 70s. Then when inflation ripped the US in two again, did Friedman and his ilk step in to explain to others of the marvelous yesteryear of the free market. :lol:

So the halt of free market lasted for 40 years. So 40 years have passed and we're back to this shit again? A generation?

[ckaihatsu]

The bailout is a failure by all accounts. Wall street is bust (http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/10/07/the-wall-street-bust/).
Watch out for martial law.


Peaccenicked,

I assume you're referring to another article at the same website you've referenced:

FEMA sources confirm coming martial law (http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/10/09/fema-sources-confirm-coming-martial-law/)

Wayne Madsen, Heyoka Magazine, WMR, October 8, 2008


Instead of scare-mongering like a right-winger, maybe we should take full advantage of the collaboration opportunities we have via the Internet (and within public opinion in general), to figure out exactly what options the ruling class has, given their current situation -- to thereby reach the realistic options *we* have for ending capitalist oppression for good.

I'd like to remind everyone that the capitalist class is currently freaking out about "a lack of confidence" in the financial markets. Note that they can't even begin to deal with the overall fundamental weaknesses of the economy, particularly a lack of growth (GDP).

Instead they're now looking to private-sector cults that are still managing to remain standing despite the wreckage all around -- Buffet, Gates, maybe a handful of hedge funds, and that's about it. Since the commentators are in full subjective mode they seem to think that they can remain afloat by hanging onto a few sail-masts while the whole ship goes down.

People should see the movie "Barbarians at the Gate" for an excellent depiction of what these types are like. It's all a game to them, no matter what the consequences of the paper economy are to real, working-class people -- they are not even ignorant, per se -- it's just that for them the self-directed role can only take place within the arena of the capitalist system.

So considering the rapid shedding of equity going on in the markets right now, we have to consider: In what direction will the commentators / players semi-consciously move in as they freak out because of their constantly eroding power and significance in the larger world -- it's an existential crisis writ large, and breathtaking to watch from the political high ground of the left.

I would say that the bourgeoisie does not have nearly enough political support among the public -- and maybe not even in the mainstream -- to pull off a mass-scale invasion and occupation of their own country. The logistics of occupying Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be too much for them -- would doing the same thing internally be any easier, really?

If to them it's about "confidence" then what kind of confidence could they possibly enjoy over the declaration of martial law in the land of the free and the home of the brave? I simply think that they have almost no political capital to work with at this point.

[crimespotter]

It was a good thing and we really don't have any choice.

[Plagueround]

It was a good thing and we really don't have any choice.

How was it a good thing? It has yet to have any real effect, except maybe washing a few people's hands of the entire ordeal while they bailout of the mess they created.

[Psy]

I would say that the bourgeoisie does not have nearly enough political support among the public -- and maybe not even in the mainstream -- to pull off a mass-scale invasion and occupation of their own country. The logistics of occupying Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be too much for them -- would doing the same thing internally be any easier, really?

If to them it's about "confidence" then what kind of confidence could they possibly enjoy over the declaration of martial law in the land of the free and the home of the brave? I simply think that they have almost no political capital to work with at this point.

We are not only ones that know about Paris May 1968 and Buenos Aires 2002 and trying to learn from these events and the bourgeoisie stated leanred when the shit hits they can't rely on the police to maintain order so are turning to their armies as their ace card in event of worker uprisings. It won't play with them just calling martial law, it would play out with them calling martial law once revolution is in the air to try and snuff it out before it gets momentum. Basically it is like when the FBI stormed the Black Panthers offices, but they are thinking of using the US Army instead of the FBI to storm meeting places of worker uprisings.

[ckaihatsu]

We are not only ones that know about Paris May 1968 and Buenos Aires 2002 and trying to learn from these events and the bourgeoisie stated leanred when the shit hits they can't rely on the police to maintain order so are turning to their armies as their ace card in event of worker uprisings. It won't play with them just calling martial law, it would play out with them calling martial law once revolution is in the air to try and snuff it out before it gets momentum. Basically it is like when the FBI stormed the Black Panthers offices, but they are thinking of using the US Army instead of the FBI to storm meeting places of worker uprisings.


I think this is an overly dramatized take on what's going on. All of the examples you've cited of reactionary violence were based in *national* crises, while what we're seeing today is an *international* crisis of finance capital, worldwide.

This is the itch you cannot scratch, and I would tend to think that the armed personnel know this as well -- notice that there has been a complete and utter absence of scapegoating while this credit collapse is taking place, and that's because it's a phenomenon that's absolutely outside of the capitalists' control. This is beyond their normal stage-managing techniques like indulging in playground politics or using state oppression against localized uprisings.

We're seeing a full-system meltdown of the superstructure -- all that labor needs now is to have a cohesive, revolutionary labor political program, and just remain standing. As the financial contagion now spreads to actual manufacturing we're going to see the public put to the test -- who will they allow to run day-to-day affairs, the irresponsible and avaricious financial managers, now in never-ending damage-control mode, or the world's proletariat?

[Psy]

I think this is an overly dramatized take on what's going on. All of the examples you've cited of reactionary violence were based in *national* crises, while what we're seeing today is an *international* crisis of finance capital, worldwide.

This is the itch you cannot scratch, and I would tend to think that the armed personnel know this as well -- notice that there has been a complete and utter absence of scapegoating while this credit collapse is taking place, and that's because it's a phenomenon that's absolutely outside of the capitalists' control. This is beyond their normal stage-managing techniques like indulging in playground politics or using state oppression against localized uprisings.

We're seeing a full-system meltdown of the superstructure -- all that labor needs now is to have a cohesive, revolutionary labor political program, and just remain standing. As the financial contagion now spreads to actual manufacturing we're going to see the public put to the test -- who will they allow to run day-to-day affairs, the irresponsible and avaricious financial managers, now in never-ending damage-control mode, or the world's proletariat?
The Great Depression was also a international crisis and the bourgeois states then turned to the police to deal with the rash of worker uprisings. What I'm saying is this time around there is a good chance they would turn to their armies to perform the same function that their police forces did during the Great Depression.

[ckaihatsu]

The Great Depression was also a international crisis and the bourgeois states then turned to the police to deal with the rash of worker uprisings. What I'm saying is this time around there is a good chance they would turn to their armies to perform the same function that their police forces did during the Great Depression.


Yes, you're absolutely correct, Psy -- I don't ever want to be overly optimistic. Perhaps we're seeing the beginnings of the inevitable major-industry class confrontations in the IAM machinists strike that's taking place against Boeing. (And the American Axle strike from last year is another, similar example.)

Ultimately it's about rank-and-file activity, but the trade unions could be instrumental if they weren't so class collaborationist.



Over 27,000 machinists in three states, Washington, Oregon and Kansas, have been on strike since September 6 to stop the outsourcing of their jobs, the imposition of higher costs for health care, and to improve their pension fund and wages. Workers voted to strike September 3 by an overwhelming 87 percent.

As to who actually “blinked first” in the strike, the response of IAM rep Blondin to a memo sent out to salaried employees by Boeing CEO and Chairman Jim McNerney on Monday suggests that it was the IAM leadership.

http://wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/boei-o10.shtml

[Psy]

Yes, you're absolutely correct, Psy -- I don't ever want to be overly optimistic. Perhaps we're seeing the beginnings of the inevitable major-industry class confrontations in the IAM machinists strike that's taking place against Boeing. (And the American Axle strike from last year is another, similar example.)

Ultimately it's about rank-and-file activity, but the trade unions could be instrumental if they weren't so class collaborationist.

The ruling class don't have a fucking clue how to solve the crisis, the fact they are trying to inject more liquidity in a market were liquid capital already exists (and simply doesn't move as there is no where to invest it to generate more capital) shows how clueless the ruling class is regarding the crisis in capital.

Capitalists now a faced with a text book example of a under consumption were due the lack of expansion of the means of production there is not enough demand for capital for the capitalist cycle to keep going. Many not having read Marx's Capital have no clue what is going on.