I was right - stupid quotes from leftists

[Liberty Lover]

I thought now would be an appropriate time to bring these up:

RedCeltic:
"I perdict the US will have to go house to house... and after it is all said and done you want to know what Leftists will do?

Remind you of the civilian death toll."

"They are not going to see the Americans as the the French saw us as we liberated Paris, but rather as the French saw the Germans when they took it."

peaccenicked:
"The only crowd that will have any significance there is the mothers throwing their dead babies at the troops."

"The plan is to a give General Franks control and leave the Baath structure largely in tact."

"In any case how is carpet bombing a weak nation, whose majority are children, going to liberate them."

CrazyPete:
"Get your government to stay their ass in their own borders and stop fucking with the world and maybe we can have peace."

"Saddam a warmonger eh? Then why is he searching for peace for his people while America is hot to trot for war? If anything Saddam is peacemongering."

LOL LMFAO LMFAO LOL LOL LMFAO LOL

TheEndOfMan
"So you have no problem with the 1 million dead iraqis?! You don't give a fuck if 500 thousand more die?! You are one cold bastard.... I pity you."

Commie01
"If you (liberty lover) feel that dropping bombs in Iraq is going to "liberate" the Iraqi people then your idea of liberty is fucked."


(Edited by Liberty Lover at 8:03 am on April 10, 2003)

[Charred Phoenix]

So, what? You just felt like making yourself look stupid?

[Liberty Lover]

You're a fucking idiot. Did you even read my post? The idea of this is to remind certain members of this forum that they were wrong regarding both the number of civilian deaths resulting from this war and the reponse of the Iraqi people to their liberation.

[革命者]

yeah, whatever.

[Invader Zim]

I hate to say it but LL is for once... right.

[革命者]

Quote: from Scotty on 11:01 am on April 10, 2003
yeah, whatever.

[Liberty Lover]

Scotty (a.k.a. vermin ridden, card-carrying, brain-dead, hog-humping, liberal, witless, smegging weiner)

So you are denying that thousands of Iraqi's celebrated the fall of Saddam? You are saying that half a million Iraqi's died during the liberation...even though the Baathists themselves have put the number at 1200? You sound like a certain Information minister who has recently become famous to the world.

[革命者]

in answer to your question:
no.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 5:23 pm on April 10, 2003
You're a fucking idiot. Did you even read my post? The idea of this is to remind certain members of this forum that they were wrong regarding both the number of civilian deaths resulting from this war and the reponse of the Iraqi people to their liberation.


Can I borrow your crystal ball? 'Cause in my timezone we're about two weeks into this thing for fuck's sakes. Get back to me when all is said and done and the aid agencies actually have a chance to see what the fuck is going on inside the country.

Right now we're getting reports from soldiers, who not surprisingly seem to be putting a positive spin on things.

--- G.

[Charred Phoenix]

Actually no AK, LL is completely and UTTERLY wrong. The question was never if they would celebrate the fall of Saddam, of course they will, they have just been freed, the question is WHY is America doing this and what will they do with the country now, here're some answers: America is doing this to secure a new market and to make themselves look strong again, they will betray the country and exploit it just as they did Afghanistan.

[apathy maybe]

I don't think any of denied that S. Hussien was a bad bloke. but seriously I would rather have him in power then see Iraq controlled by strings from Washington DC.
Heres a prediction - that if the Yanks et alii stay in Iraq ('specially the north) they will start getting shot at in the steets. The Iraqies didn't go through shit to be 'liberated' just to have another dictatorship installed.

In fact I would see nothing wrong with a radical change of borders in the Middle East, maybe 2 or even 3 countries out of Iraq, a chunk out of Turkey to an independent Kurdistien etc.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Charred Phoenix on 11:02 am on April 10, 2003
Actually no AK, LL is completely and UTTERLY wrong. The question was never if they would celebrate the fall of Saddam, of course they will, they have just been freed, the question is WHY is America doing this and what will they do with the country now, here're some answers: America is doing this to secure a new market and to make themselves look strong again, they will betray the country and exploit it just as they did Afghanistan.


No, LL posted a number of comments from individuals, which in hiensight appear to be incorrect. That was the whole point of the thread from what i can see. To claim that LL has infact made a mistake would be gross denial on are part.

Your post asks some very good questions but they however were not the subject of this thread. The incorrect predictions and statments by other members of the board were.

(Edited by AK47 at 11:12 am on April 10, 2003)

[Charred Phoenix]

I disagree, they have taken one city, and the people think they are being liberated, before the war is over they will probably see that that is false, if not, they will see this afterwards, to claim that they wouldn't celebrate their "liberation" at this early stage was a great mistake, however, I feel what the people quoted are trying to get at is that, in the long run, the Iraqis will not support this war.

(Edited by Charred Phoenix at 11:40 am on April 10, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Charred Phoenix on 11:39 am on April 10, 2003
I disagree, they have taken one city, and the people think they are being liberated, before the war is over they will probably see that that is false, if not, they will see this afterwards, to claim that they wouldn't celebrate their "liberation" at this early stage was a great mistake, however, I feel what the people quoted are trying to get at is that, in the long run, the Iraqis will not support this war.

(Edited by Charred Phoenix at 11:40 am on April 10, 2003)


then how do you explain the thousands of civillians celebraitng on the street?

[Dhul Fiqar]

How do you explain the millions that are not?

It's way too soon for anyone to claim to know how this is going to 'turn out'.

--- G.

[Sabocat]

Liberty Lover. It's amazing that you're such a lap dog to the US after what they did to your own country.

Maybe you think that it's normal procedure to remove a leader from a sovereign nation, after all....it happened to your country when the CIA instigated the removal of Whitlam. Kerr dissolved both houses of parliament at the behest of the CIA and installed Fraser.

Thank god that Australia doesn't have huge oil reserves huh? Then you'd really be fucked.

[Zombie]

CP, that one city is Baghdad and as I believe in war when you decapitate the capital you pretty much decapitate the ruling force. I could be wrong.
Anyhow LL don't be such a fucking prick and cry victory so soon, like the good american that you are. Apparently you don't care that the country has been brought down to ashes, as long as bush says there will be "rebuilding". Is he talking of the burnt oil wells?!

***
I read in the newspaper yesterday morning that Bush wants the UN to be a major part of rebuilding Iraq. Oh that's right, now ask the UN for help.

Z.

[Charred Phoenix]

then how do you explain the thousands of civillians celebraitng on the street?


Simple AK, the war isn't over :)



CP, that one city is Baghdad and as I believe in war when you decapitate the capital you pretty much decapitate the ruling force. I could be wrong.


During both Hitlers and Napoleon's attempts to invade Russia, Moscow was burnt to the ground, yet Russia was never beaten.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Well, Saddam is totally fucked, I'm not gonna deny that. There won't be any concerted resistance from now on, just pockets of pissed off locals.

--- G.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 11:55 am on April 10, 2003
How do you explain the millions that are not?

It's way too soon for anyone to claim to know how this is going to 'turn out'.

--- G.


Thats a good point, however you and others were saying this was a war which went against against the public opinion etc. You based this assumption on the fact that millions turned out to protest. In this country 1000,000 people turned up in london. What about the other 61,000,000 people who did not?

I think there is a little bit of hypocracy here.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Charred Phoenix on 12:39 pm on April 10, 2003


then how do you explain the thousands of civillians celebraitng on the street?


Simple AK, the war isn't over :)



CP, that one city is Baghdad and as I believe in war when you decapitate the capital you pretty much decapitate the ruling force. I could be wrong.


During both Hitlers and Napoleon's attempts to invade Russia, Moscow was burnt to the ground, yet Russia was never beaten.


Your completely right the war is not over, but it is won. I cannot see Saddam returning to power in the current situation. Considering the people of Bagdad have had a revolution.

Let me ask all you "Doubting Thomas's" somthing, as communists and leftwingers you are all usually saying thingls like VIVA LA REVOLUTION. When regarding the USA and other facist governments, so why are you not celebrating the downfall of one of the few remaining Facist dictators? Is it because you cant bear to be wrong that you must deny that a great thing has happened, the evidence is all around. The people of Iraq are tearing down statues of Saddam. Celebrating in the streats. Why are you not happy for them?

PS do not quote Napoleonic history at me. Russia was a super power in both those times, also the people did not want to be invaded. They faught back very hard and crushed the invadors. (to be more acurate the winter actualy crushed the invadors but what ever)

Before you come out with some shit about the Iraqi's not wanting to be invaded i draw your attention back to the fact that they have revolted against Saddams Rule.

My 5 minutes

AK47

[Zombie]

so why are you not celebrating the downfall of one of the few remaining Facist dictators?
a fascist dictator removing another fascist dictator. hooraah that's gonna cheer me up :(
I am happy for the Iraqis, but don't let the ephemeral joy blind you too much. time will prove us right on this one. trust me.

(Edited by Zombie at 1:13 pm on April 10, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Zombie on 6:11 pm on April 10, 2003
so why are you not celebrating the downfall of one of the few remaining Facist dictators?
a fascist dictator removing another fascist dictator. hooraah that's gonna cheer me up :(
I am happy for the Iraqis, but don't let the ephemeral joy blind you too much. time will prove us right on this one. trust me.

(Edited by Zombie at 1:13 pm on April 10, 2003)


Be fair the USA has not systamaticaly culled any people for a large amount of time. They are not really Nazis they are jus corrupt, lying, capitalistic pigs. Calling them Nazis is a bit harsh.

[Zombie]

A little copy/paste:

Fascism : A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

I never called the US nazi i called it fascist. read above, can u refute the fact that america leans more and more to being fascist?
I am being too fair really.

Z.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Zombie on 6:24 pm on April 10, 2003
A little copy/paste:

Fascism : A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

I never called the US nazi i called it fascist. read above, can u refute the fact that america leans more and more to being fascist?
I am being too fair really.

Z.

I dont live in the US so i could not say if they terrify people into voting for them.

Socioeconomic Controls... its true.

Censorship... Again its true.

However they dont have a dictator as he will be gone in about 5-6 years wont he.

[canikickit]

why are you not celebrating the downfall of one of the few remaining Facist dictators? Is it because you cant bear to be wrong that you must deny that a great thing has happened, the evidence is all around. The people of Iraq are tearing down statues of Saddam. Celebrating in the streats. Why are you not happy for them?

Celebrating....yeah right.

Anyway, it was great yesterday to see all those Iraqis running through the streets, slapping Saddam upside the head with their sandals, but all that is nothing other than a convenient side-effect of the US led imperialism. I have always been glad in the knowledge that Saddam was on his way out. I am also glad that the predictions of humanitarian crises have thus far been avoided, and that the siege of Baghdad didn't arise on the grand scale predicted.

The people have been under an oppressive fist for decades. Their culture is completely different to ours. That is why there were such scenes of euphoria, within weeks their will be resentment against the imperialistic bullshit.

The US used depleted uranium and cluster bombs (which are a violation of the Geneva convention, note the uproar after showing some bodies on Al Jazeera, while cluster bombs go largely unmentioned), their presecution of this war was ridiculous.

It's far from over, you should be ashamed of yourself, AK47.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from AK47 on 11:38 pm on April 10, 2003

Quote: from Zombie on 6:24 pm on April 10, 2003
A little copy/paste:

Fascism : A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

I never called the US nazi i called it fascist. read above, can u refute the fact that america leans more and more to being fascist?
I am being too fair really.

Z.

I dont live in the US so i could not say if they terrify people into voting for them.

Socioeconomic Controls... its true.

Censorship... Again its true.

However they dont have a dictator as he will be gone in about 5-6 years wont he.


He'd better be gone in 2. All we have to do is keep his families hands out of the voting booths/polls. Hopefully, He'll be a one trick pony like his equally stupid, insipid dad.

They don't need to terrify us at the voting booths. The last election made all us voters irrelevant anyway. Same result.

And yes, since he really took power under dubious means (not actually winning the election),yes I would consider him a dictator by coup. He is even quoted as saying "Dictatorships aren't so bad...as long as I get to be the Dictator" Draw you're own conclusions.

[hawarameen]

apathy maybe, fighting the cause of anti imperialism is one thing but please dont suggest that you would prefer to live under saddam than the US, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever ok.

i am starting to get a bit pissed off with claim after claim of what WILL happen and what WONT happen, that just results in a whole bunch of 'i told you so's

there was an instance when a soldier was invited into a hotelier's home who made him tea and boiled an egg for the soldier (the soldier was well happy about this). also an instance when a soldier was given flowers.

there was also an instance when in a hotel lobby a woman shouted at troops "yankee go home".

i am however pretty sure that the saddam loyalists are pretty pissed of with america, their life of luxury is over.

it remains to be seen if and for how long the rest of the population welcomes the troops.

[Ymir]

Liberty lover, here's another quote...




HOORAY FOR SADDAM!

[Charred Phoenix]

Your completely right the war is not over, but it is won. I cannot see Saddam returning to power in the current situation. Considering the people of Bagdad have had a revolution.


You don't seem to have read my post, I never said the war wasn't won, I said that in the long run the people of Iraq will not be happier.




Let me ask all you "Doubting Thomas's" somthing, as communists and leftwingers you are all usually saying thingls like VIVA LA REVOLUTION. When regarding the USA and other facist governments, so why are you not celebrating the downfall of one of the few remaining Facist dictators? Is it because you cant bear to be wrong that you must deny that a great thing has happened, the evidence is all around. The people of Iraq are tearing down statues of Saddam. Celebrating in the streats. Why are you not happy for them?


We /are/ happy for them, we are just sad that he is being ousted in an imperialist war and soon Iraq will be being exploited by the USA.



PS do not quote Napoleonic history at me. Russia was a super power in both those times, also the people did not want to be invaded. They faught back very hard and crushed the invadors. (to be more acurate the winter actualy crushed the invadors but what ever)


It is irrelevant that Russia was a superpower because I did not claim the war was not going to be won, I just said it hasn't been YET.

And actually AK it wasn't the winter that crushed them, it was the burnt ground strategy, which is also irrelevant because I am simply pointing out that just because you have the capital, it doesn't mean the war is over.



Before you come out with some shit about the Iraqi's not wanting to be invaded i draw your attention back to the fact that they have revolted against Saddams Rule.


Once again, it becomes apparent that you have not read my post, of course they want to be freed at this point, the only thing that matters is what they think LATER.

[Beccie]

I can honestly say I am happy Saddam is gone but the war is not over yet so don’t speak to soon, LL.

Whist their have been images of happy Iraqi people tearing statues of Saddam the media has failed to show us the thousands of Iraqi people lying in hospital beds wounded. Should they be happy about America’s invasion? I’m sure the 1152-1388 dead Iraqis are delighted that America came to liberate them. Do you give a fuck about these people?

If you don’t then I stand by the comment I made earlier, your idea of liberty is fucked.

[Blibblob]

If liberty involves mass murder, than of course its fucked.

[redstar2000]

Liberty Hater reminds us all of the hazards of predicting the future in detail...and that is useful. In the coming months, he may have reason to recall his own advice.

Clearly, whatever Iraqis who may be installed by the U.S. as a "government" will be quislings...utterly spineless lackeys who will kiss American butts privately if not publicly...much as the Cuban politicians did after the Spanish-American War.

Whatever "elections" that might take place will as formal and ritualized...and meaningless as those that took place under Saddam Hussein.

The amount of armed resistance to U.S. occupation will probably be proportionate to the harshness of the occupation. In Afghanistan, the U.S. continues to murder random groups of civilians long after "victory" and consequently, resistance to U.S. occupation continues. I have read that Iraq, like Afghanistan, is a "weapons culture"...there are lots of guns and ammunition in the hands of the people and lots of people with some training in how to use them. So we shall see.

The reason there is no reason to celebrate the fall of Saddam Hussein is that it paves the way for the next war.

Folks like AK47 need to remember that the lust for conquest, once awakened, is not easily put back to sleep. Hitler once had all of Europe at his command...and deliberately invaded Russia when all he had to do was wait for England to fall into his hands.

The Bush Regime is 2-0; is that enough? Or have they "discovered" that conquest is "fun and easy". What country is the next target? Some figures in the Bush Regime are publicly on record in favor of a whole series of "regime changes" (U.S. conquests).

It is quite true, as AK47 points out, that substantial majorities "supported this war in the polls". Wars that are short and victorious are almost always popular.

The hazards of war and empire are not always immediately apparent. But I will make a "prediction" that is fail-safe: sooner or later, the hazards of war and empire come home with a vengence.

The Germans found that out. The Japanese found that out. What will it be like when America finds out?

Sobering, isn't it?

:cool:

[Chiak47]

RED,

Ahhh I hope more right wingers come out of the wood work-so the day America's fate is in grubby hands you and your kind will get what vermin and traitors alike deserve.

Thanks,
Cant wait

[IHP]

"Ahhh I hope more right wingers come out of the wood work-so the day America's fate is in grubby hands you and your kind will get what vermin and traitors alike deserve."

Being that I live in one of Americas sattelite states, I suppose I am one of those grubby handed traitors you speak of. Now I ask you to fully explain and justify that post.

--IHP

[peaccenicked]

The pictures from Iraq were highly questionable.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article2838.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm)
Whereas these photos are not.
http://www.allied-media.com/aljazeera/VICS.htm
I suppose I d have to admit, I was wrong but I was not being that serious. The idea of 'liberation' is so phoney.
None of the capis answered this post, http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2092 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2092)presumbably they know that 'liberation' is a farce if Yugoslavia and Afghanistan are to go by.
The point is that the capis live in Pentagon made fantasy land and pedal that fantasy here.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:38 am on April 11, 2003)

[Chiak47]

shot.The traitors fate.

Don't Tread On Me

[peaccenicked]

fake dancing in the street.
http://www.rense.com/general37/free.htm

[Zombie]

you know you get so used to all the propaganda, that all of this isn't so surprising anymore.
but still impressive though.

Z.

[Pete]

Questions:

Chiack: Who the hell is treading on you?

and now for the big one

LL and AK [i]How the hell is any of the quotes that I said been proven false? I think that they have been more than proven TRUE by this whole war. Fuck off and actually read what you are writing.[i]

(Edited by CrazyPete at 11:45 pm on April 10, 2003)

[Chiak47]

Pieceofass,

Wow,That site has ufo links and all.Everything I ever wanted to know about UFO's is on this page.
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/lool.gif

http://www.rense.com/
At the bottom of the site is all extraterrestrial links and "breaking" UFO stories.

Thanks,
Eric

[peaccenicked]

'The plan is to a give General Franks control and leave the Baath structure largely in tact."
There are 2 million members of the Baath party. They are not all dead. Only the higher echelon will be removed.
If the Shia get majority rule, the would introduce Islamic fundamentalism.

[peaccenicked]

Chickenhawk47 So what?

[IHP]

Cheek47, you havent answered my question. PLease do so.

--IHP

[Chiak47]

Pieceofass,

hunting for a chicken.
Thanks the next time I get banned I'll use chickenhawk47..

BTT...
So what?Thats like reading Art Bell.
Poor photoshop-slop stories-no content.
Come on son get it together and end it now.
.22 to your head.
-Suicide Is Painless-
Bad ass Laftie Song BTW...Name the artist.
I'll give you a hint...He sang in Cuba....


Thanks,
Dr.Kevorkian

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/kevorkian/kevork4gifs/041499_mt_450.jpg

[Chiak47]

I hate Life,

shot.The traitors fate.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/flags/usa/donttread/big.GIF

Thanks,
American

[IHP]

Come on Cheap, you can answer better than that.

Now once again explain to me exactly how we are traitors and justify all the points raised in your post that I originally enquired about.

Thanks you kindly in advance.

--IHP

btw. please do not repeat "shot. the traitors fate" It doesn't explain anything to do with your post.

[peaccenicked]

Liberttaker. Your prediction was 9 days and the war is not over. Saddam Hussein is still alive. So you were not right you were wrong.

[Chiak47]

I hate Life,

I said:


"Ahhh I hope more right wingers come out of the wood work-so the day America's fate is in grubby hands you and your kind will get what vermin and traitors alike deserve."

aimed at RED...But since you insist on trolling me with this shit from page 4 which I answered twice already not COUNTING this here reply all aimed at your statement:



Being that I live in one of Americas sattelite states, I suppose I am one of those grubby handed traitors you speak of. Now I ask you to fully explain and justify that post.

--IHP

I'll state this....If and when you "parasites" come after my country for a "host" and the "parasites" that already live here join in I will be here waiting to hand out traitors fate.
SHOT..Hence dont tread on me...


As far as calling me "cheap" does that not go against lafties love one love all rule?
And to think all this time I thought I liked to splurge and that Reds were cheap.BTW it's not my fault you live in a puppet goverment of the USA.Be proud son cause chances are it would be worse with out The USA.If your not proud fight to get the USA out.

Thanks,
Cleared?

[Liberty Lover]

Jesus tap dancing christ! This thread shot of quick :)

Where to start?

Disgustipated
"Liberty Lover. It's amazing that you're such a lap dog to the US after what they did to your own country.

Maybe you think that it's normal procedure to remove a leader from a sovereign nation, after all....it happened to your country when the CIA instigated the removal of Whitlam. Kerr dissolved both houses of parliament at the behest of the CIA and installed Fraser.

Thank god that Australia doesn't have huge oil reserves huh? Then you'd really be fucked."

There is no evidence whatsover of CIA involvement in the sacking of Whitlam. But if there was then that is just one more reason to like the USA. If it wasn't for Whitlam setting back the economic boom Australia had experieced during 20 odd years of Liberal party leadership we would be a much richer nation than we are now. Anyway...Whitlam went for re-election and, suprise suprise...LOST.

We do have alot of oil...aswell as other natural resources. The great barrier reaf is full of oil and our deserts full of uranium.

Zombie
"I read in the newspaper yesterday morning that Bush wants the UN to be a major part of rebuilding Iraq. Oh that's right, now ask the UN for help."

The UN want to be involved.

Commie01
"I’m sure the 1152-1388 dead Iraqis are delighted that America came to liberate them. Do you give a fuck about these people?"

Do you care about the 100, 000 people that would have died had we left the barth party in power?

CrazyPete
"LL and AK How the hell is any of the quotes that I said been proven false? I think that they have been more than proven TRUE by this whole war. Fuck off and actually read what you are writing."

Was he searching for "peace for his people" when he massacred 100, 000 of them during operation Anfal.

peaccenicked
"Your prediction was 9 days and the war is not over."


Turn on the news. The north has fallen.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 8:31 am on April 11, 2003)

[革命者]

wnated to post soomething about the Blues Brothers!!-- but i can see my inbox filled with angry PMs from Malte already!!-- bugger!

Scotty.

[Invader Zim]

LL posted at the beggining of this thread that the following statments are incorrect. ( i have not quoted coz it would take to long i will simply summerise)

-US forces will go from house to house ie extream resistance and large scale urban warfare...

Has not occured bagdad has fallen... and it has not happened. No ammout of the war's not over bullshit will make it happen either. Accept ya wrong.

The Iraqis will hate the US invadors

Revolution has occured... again no amount of denial will alter the fact you have been proved wrong... accept it.


1 individual said 1,000,000 iraqi civillians have died, the Baath party put it at around 1200. They are blatantly going to put it up a bit, so its probly aroung 900 at most. Is this a habbit but your wrong again.

Summerised basically that is what was posted... and it was blatantly wrong.

Unless Saddam launches chemical weapons at his own people millions of them will not die. Ohh wait you guys denied that he has chemical weapons... So thats not going to happen.

The Iraqi people are obviously happy to see the Americans, hense the reason they have had a revolution and captured most of Bagdad for the americans.
That also proves that mass urban warfair willnot and has not occured in this war.

You can all deny this, but i think we all know you would be lying to your selves as well.

:cool:

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 1:30 pm on April 11, 2003
Jesus tap dancing christ! This thread shot of quick :)

Where to start?

Disgustipated
"Liberty Lover. It's amazing that you're such a lap dog to the US after what they did to your own country.

Maybe you think that it's normal procedure to remove a leader from a sovereign nation, after all....it happened to your country when the CIA instigated the removal of Whitlam. Kerr dissolved both houses of parliament at the behest of the CIA and installed Fraser.

Thank god that Australia doesn't have huge oil reserves huh? Then you'd really be fucked."

There is no evidence whatsover of CIA involvement in the sacking of Whitlam. But if there was then that is just one more reason to like the USA. If it wasn't for Whitlam setting back the economic boom Australia had experieced during 20 odd years of Liberal party leadership we would be a much richer nation than we are now. Anyway...Whitlam went for re-election and, suprise suprise...LOST.

We do have alot of oil...aswell as other natural resources. The great barrier reaf is full of oil and our deserts full of uranium.

Zombie
"I read in the newspaper yesterday morning that Bush wants the UN to be a major part of rebuilding Iraq. Oh that's right, now ask the UN for help."

The UN want to be involved.

Commie01
"I’m sure the 1152-1388 dead Iraqis are delighted that America came to liberate them. Do you give a fuck about these people?"

Do you care about the 100, 000 people that would have died had we left the barth party in power?

CrazyPete
"LL and AK How the hell is any of the quotes that I said been proven false? I think that they have been more than proven TRUE by this whole war. Fuck off and actually read what you are writing."

Was he searching for "peace for his people" when he massacred 100, 000 of them during operation Anfal.

peaccenicked
"Your prediction was 9 days and the war is not over."


Turn on the news. The north has fallen.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 8:31 am on April 11, 2003)



By "oil" I meant OPEC and Iraqi reserve size oil.

Australia's ultimate production of conventional oil is likely to be 0.2% of the world's ultimate and about 2% of its gas. Over 80% is offshore, there are few giant fields and these are at the small end of the giant spectrum. Some gas discoveries are well offshore, in deep water and will be expensive to develop, their Energy Profit Ratios (EPR) are likely to be low.

Australia is a net importer of crude oil and both imports and exports refined products. Natural gas is exported as liquid natural gas (LNG). The Bureau of Resource Sciences (BRS) says Australia has produced about half of its ultimate endowment of conventional oil and about 9% of its much larger endowment of natural gas, including estimates of the undiscovered (BRS 1997, p. 57).


Australian conventional oil production could decline to very low levels between 2015 and 2025. Certainly by 2015 oil production will be minimal in Bass Strait, the Carnarvon Basin, and Central Australia. The uncertainty surrounds future discoveries and production from the Browse and Bonaparte Basins between Australia and Timor, the new exploration frontier.

However, there should still be condensate available. Condensate is the lighter liquid hydrocarbon fraction that often occurs with natural gas. The share of condensate will increase from now on as natural gas reserves are developed, but will be dependent on their timing and the level of condensate in the gas.

Bass Strait, Australia's largest oil province, peaked in 1986 and production has declined to 43% of the 1986 level. Central Australian oil production is minor. Production peaked in the Carnarvon Basin in 1996 and is expected to decline to less than one quarter of that by 2008, but condensate production will be sustained.

Yes, Australia has Uranium. Not as much as Canada, but enough I'm sure to interest the US. Perhaps that's why the CIA set up shop there to start with.

No proof of CIA involvement?

Read Ray Aitchison's "Looking at the Liberals"
CIA officer Victor Marchetti was quoted as saying the CIA had funded both of the major opposition parties. That funding was nearly unlimited. In all likelyhood, Whitlam lost his bid for re-election because of the opposition being heavily funded by the CIA.

The real issue would be of course that you don't seem to have a problem with a leader being illegally dismissed. He was a duly elected official. The Melbourne newspaper "The Age" was quoted as saying...

"By bringing down the Government because the Senate refused it Supply, Sir John Kerr acted at least against the spirit of the Australian Constitution. Since 1901, it has been a firmly held convention that the Senate should not reject budgets....Sir John has created an awesome precedent-that a hostile Senate can bring down a government whenever it denies it's Supply. Kerr breathed lifeinto a constitutional relic-the right of kings and queens to unilaterally appoint governments"



(Edited by Disgustapated at 4:51 pm on April 11, 2003)

[革命者]

«The relief felt by our people for the ousting of a dictator can not compensate the humiliation and grief they feel for the establishing of another illegitimate and oppressing authority. The American flag that was put on the face of the statue of the old oppressor, says it all, the oppression is still there, it just has an American face now. Baghdad is not free; it just changed hands from one local corrupted oppressor to a foreign more corrupted oppressor, but also an enemy of god and the nation. Except a few hundreds who were on the streets in an orchestrated scene of fake jubilation, and another few hundreds of thugs, but also impoverished people, who took advantage of the situation to embark on a looting campaign, the majority of the 6 million inhabitants of the city stayed at home with mixed feelings of bitterness, anxiety and anticipation.»

[Liberty Lover]

LOL It's obvious who's side the guy who wrote this piece of tripe is on. After the American flag was smothered on Saddam's face it was waved about by an Iraqi.

You commie pukes are really pathetic. "orchestrated scene of fake jubilation" LOL what shit...were the celebrations in Kurdish cities orchestrated aswell?

"it just changed hands from one local corrupted oppressor to a foreign more corrupted oppressor"

LOL Yep the first thing the Americans are going to do is kill 100, 000 kurds. Fucking idiot!

[Liberty Lover]

"the majority of the 6 million inhabitants of the city stayed at home with mixed feelings of bitterness, anxiety and anticipation"

What is this shit? The majority of Iraqi's stayed home because Saddam, their sole source of infomation, had been telling them they would be massacred.

[Pete]

LL

Are you counting the people who died in the Iran-Iraq war...if so quit your bullshit.

[hawarameen]

too many people are driven by their emotions for the USA here. i have been accused of this in respect towards kurdistan and i find there are many hypocrites.

either your a cappie and you love the USA and all it does regardless of its effects

or your a leftist and you hate all that the USA and all it does regardless of its effects.

either way oppinions are claimed as facts backed up by mildly relevant historical events.

why cant you cappies admit that this escapade may turn out to be the biggest balls up the world has seen?

and why cant you leftists admit that the same escapade may actually turn out to be of some benefit for iraq?

i will believe the claims that americans are helping old laddies cross roads as much as i believe that they are running around indiscriminately killing civilians.

iraq would NEVER have been able to overthrow saddam on their own, neigbouring countries have far too much to loose. i am convinced that some of the members here have their heads permenantly stuck in an anti/pro american cloud.

i am angered by SOME american policies and right now, if action isnt taken soon they will loose control in iraq, we must wait and see.

what i want more than anything is for the oppressed people of the world to be free, wherever they come from. i do not consider myself as far left as some people here but i do consider myself a leftist and i would much rather have seen stalin denounce communism and save all those lives than to carry on under the false banner of communism.

'We share the same biology, regardless of ideology'

(Edited by hawarameen at 11:34 pm on April 11, 2003)


(Edited by hawarameen at 11:39 pm on April 11, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 3:42 pm on April 11, 2003
LL

Are you counting the people who died in the Iran-Iraq war...if so quit your bullshit.


Operation anfal (http://hrw.org/reports/world/iraq-pubs.php)

[peaccenicked]

liberation US/UK style (http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=396346)

[redstar2000]

Hawarameen, I will readily concede that some people will benefit from the American conquest of Iraq.

The Slovaks and the Croatians "benefited" from the German conquest of eastern Europe...at least for a while.

Perhaps the Kurds will benefit from this conquest...we shall see.

But that does not change or even alleviate the fact that U.S. imperialism will only find in its new victory a fresh inspiration to further conquest.

Even if you get your "independent" Kurdish Republic out of all this--and you certainly have it coming--you know that the only Kurds who will be permitted in the government will be spineless lackeys of U.S. imperialism. You also know that the oil wealth of that new Kurdish Republic will be appropriated by U.S. oil companies for pennies on the dollar...and little or none of that will "trickle down" to the ordinary Kurd.

You will counter these facts by asserting that I am a "knee-jerk anti-American".

To which I will reply: wait and see for yourself!

:cool:


(Edited by redstar2000 at 9:24 pm on April 11, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Good to see peaccenicked's finally come up with his own arguments.

[peaccenicked]

What the west fails to mention.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kicadam/artikel/selfd.html
Why should any Kurd trust Coalition or even prominent UN nations?

[peaccenicked]

Libertyliar
Good to see you starting give your arguments with sources.
http://hrw.org/reports/world/iraq-pubs.php
Pity, your simplistic mind cant refute my sources. All you
do is idiotically denounce them as my sources.

[Liberty Lover]

peaccenicked,
You say I have a simplistic mind, yet you are not capable of doing anything but copying and pasting URL's. I don't refute your sources because I don't read them. I did at first but soon came to the realisation that they are nothing more than propaganda pieces that put the work of Goebbels, Chernenko and Mayakovsky to shame.

[Pete]

LL- Thank you.
BTW, that still does not prove anything that I said wrong.

[Liberty Lover]

CP,
So you are standing by your comment that Saddam sought what was best for his people?

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 3:06 am on April 12, 2003)

[Blibblob]

peaccenicked,
You say I have a simplistic mind, yet you are not capable of doing anything but copying and pasting URL's. I don't refute your sources because I don't read them. I did at first but soon came to the realisation that they are nothing more than propaganda pieces that put the work of Goebbels, Chernenko and Mayakovsky to shame.
That you don't read them shows more than ignorance, it shows not trying to fix your ignorance. And, if you say that if they are propaganda pieces they shouldn't be read, then maybe we shouldn't read any of your sources. There is nothing more than conspiracy and propaganda. The truth is non-existant.

[Pete]

I said he was seeking peace not war.

[Blibblob]

Of course Saddam was seeking peace, sheesh lover. War, why would he want war, he was going to, and did lose. And Bush might even roll right on by the real danger, Mr. Pigmy. No oil over there.

(Edited by Blibblob at 10:17 pm on April 11, 2003)

[IHP]

This thread has gone crazy.

"aimed at RED...But since you insist on trolling me with this shit from page 4 which I answered twice already not COUNTING this here reply all aimed at your statement:"

It was at then of of page four and I asked you then and you didn't answer. I wanted you to respond, so further "trolling" was necessary until I got my answer, which I have still not received. I will not ask you again as you clearly just shoot your mouth off for no reason.

I will however answer this pitiful response.





"I'll state this....If and when you "parasites" come after my country for a "host" and the "parasites" that already live here join in I will be here waiting to hand out traitors fate.
SHOT..Hence dont tread on me...

How are we parasites, and who exactly fits into this description? Please inform me as to how you in your little bubble over there can throw blanket statements that you simply cannot justify. So people who wish to stop a war are to be shot? Am I right? Or is it only people who are not middle class anglo-saxons?

"As far as calling me "cheap" does that not go against lafties love one love all rule?
And to think all this time I thought I liked to splurge and that Reds were cheap.BTW it's not my fault you live in a puppet goverment of the USA.Be proud son cause chances are it would be worse with out The USA.If your not proud fight to get the USA out."

Cheap was in reference to "Lives Off Wife" and was close to Chiak in sound. You call Peacce "piecofass," does that mean you want a piece of his arse? I think you take small slurs a little serious bucko.

I am already fighting to get "grubby handed" American military influence out of my country, don't you worry about that. I can tell you right now, I would feel a lot safer if my PM was wanking over GWB.

See now it wasn't so hard to repond, though next time I ask you to answer please do not repeat any of this nonsense, it does you no favours.

--IHP

[IHP]

"There is no evidence whatsover of CIA involvement in the sacking of Whitlam. But if there was then that is just one more reason to like the USA. If it wasn't for Whitlam setting back the economic boom Australia had experieced during 20 odd years of Liberal party leadership we would be a much richer nation than we are now. Anyway...Whitlam went for re-election and, suprise suprise...LOST. "

Lover Boy, come one now you know what you're saying isn't true. Whitlam did many, many good things in his few years than any other Prime minister ever has in their entire term. The Liberals panicked and refused to pass the Supply Bill, crippling the Whitlam Administration. Luckily that won't happen again, as the Senate couldnt be such a thorn.

Kerrs actions were entirely wrong and not beyond questioning. It is totally undeniable. Although in theory he could, tradtionally he has always acted only on the advice of the Prime Minister. And Geough didn't advise Kerr to fire him and his administration. Tradition is supremely important when it comes to governence. England for example (English members correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't even have a constitution! It runs solely on convention.

Ok heres some years for you: 1972 and 1974. Whitlam onvincingly won both elections, why then should he be absolutely hammered in the 75 election? Somethigns not right Lover boy, and you know it.

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 6:22 am on April 12, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

IHP,

During Whitlam's prime ministership, Australia formally acknowledged the Soviet Union's sovereignty over Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - a policy that was reversed by Malcolm Fraser's government. These three Baltic States were incorporated into the USSR as a consequence of the notorious Nazi Soviet Pact of 1939.

In 1976, Whitlam supported the idea that Labor should seek money (in secret) from Saddam Hussein's dictatorial Baath Socialist Party to fund the previous year's election campaign. The story is documented in Laurie Oakes' "Crash Through or Crash".

Let's not forget the recognition of Red China or the failure to oppose the Indoneasian invasion of East Timor while we're at it.

Whitlam's time in office also saw the economy swept into a whirlwind of high inflation, rising interest rates and collapsing employment. Voter confidence in him crumbled to the point where voters endorsed the sacking of the Whitlam government by the governor-general by giving a landslide victory to Malcolm Fraser.

So he abolished WAP...big deal. That's one pro in a plethora of cons.

It's seems to be the unfortunate way of things in Australia. Everytime the Libs build up our economy and set us on clear path to international relevance...along comes a labor party economic mismanager and communist sympathiser to ruin everything that has ben achieved.

However, I get the feeling the liberals are going to be in power for a while yet...Simon Crean LMFA LOL LOL LMFAO.

[Invader Zim]

I cant believe im hearing people saying that life in Iraq will be worse under there own rule. Or even under US rule. Last time i checked the USA did not commit genocide against there allies. Saddam Hussain has killed over 1,000,000 of his own people and nearly 2,000,000 of other countries peoples. I know the Americans are a bunch of selfish bastards (no offence to anyone) but thay are not that bad. To say life under them worse than life under Saddam is stupid.

PS Any thing that happened over 40 years ago is irelavant to this statment.


(Edited by AK47 at 11:51 pm on April 12, 2003)

[hawarameen]

if the usa was as bad as saddam most of us leftist here would be in jail, dead or in the process of being tortured.

the credibility of many people has been lost because of statements suggesting that this is true, THIS is what i am talking about when i say people are clouded by their emotions or lack of for america.
how many of you atended anti-war rallies? well if you did i would say at least you and possibly your families would be dead right now if the US was as bad as saddam.

kurds have NO reason whatsoever to trust any world leader, history has shown us that but this is no reason to make yourself comfortable in misery only a reason to be weary.

it pains me to say that an independant kurdistan of all four regions is as realistic as turning water into wine but IF (and i say IF because i do not have the ability to tell the future unlike many people) the people of iraq take a small step closer to freedom then this can ONLY be good.

and with regards to the oil issue, saddam has been STEALING irai oil for 20 years, using that oil to maintain his lifestyle (youve all seen it) and to buy weapons which he THEN uses to kill the iraqi people!
if worse comes to the worst the US will 'buy' irai oil for a nominal fee, the only difference will be that they wont use that money (iraqi money) to gass, poisen, ethnicly cleanse millions.

i am no admirer of G. bush, in fact i think he has to be the dullest president the US has had and he has picked likeminded individuals to help him. the way he has handled this and the rhetoric of the whole administration makes me laugh sometimes.

the way i look at it is the people of iraq are moving from an economic and murderous tyrany to just an economic tyrany and i believe the latter is an improvement on the former.

this will be the FIRST step towards true freedom for the iraqi people.

as i have said i would prefer to wait and see.

[Invader Zim]

Those are my sentiments exactly. But i got called... What was it... OHH yes

1) a worthless lacky of US imperialism, by Redstar2000
2) 2 members of the board hoped my cousin would stand on a land mine.
3) Malte, was annoyed because of my "reactionary" opinions.

I cannot remember the hundreds of other insults that have passed my way. But there are many of them all because i chose to adopt a policy that differed from others. IE i chose to support an imperialist over a facist.
Very Pissed Off

AK47

(Edited by AK47 at 12:23 am on April 13, 2003)

[hawarameen]

things do not have to be that clear cut AK you dont have to support a fascist or an imperialist, i support neither.

while many leftists promote the cause of equality and freedom etc the comments directed at you (as you have described them) are abit low.

i will fight the cause of the poor, the opressed, the needy wherever they are. some people may say my views are driven by emotion because i am kurdish and others will say the same to you because of your cousin.
what i will say is that others are driven by their emotions of hatred of the US in all its forms whatever they might be.

[Invader Zim]

I dont support either as well, its just that people seem to think that if you are for the removal of a Facist dictator you must be a "worthless lacky of US imperialism"

That really annoys me getting generalised.

[hawarameen]

to a lesser extent the same has been said of me, only less so because i and my people have been the victims of saddams oppresion.

[Invader Zim]

Saddam has treated your people like shit, I think that that is what a lot of people have failed to realise, and the Turks are not any better. What really anoys me about this whole thing though is that every time i make a point relating to the fact that Saddam has commited genocide someone comes out with the fact that the USA is no better. But surely that is notrelevant in this situation.

(Edited by AK47 at 1:24 am on April 13, 2003)

[notyetacommie]

Well, guys, Hitler promised the Russians to get them rid of Stalin. Do you see an analogy here? Some people say that Iraquis rejoyced and danced in the streets when Americans came.
But they also rejoyced and danced in the streets on 9/11. I saw it on TV then. No one has mentioned this before, but this gives an idea fo how biased these dancings in the streets really are. All those mass killings that right-wingers like to write about were SUPPORTED by US. Moreover, US supplied Saddam with chemical and biological weapons. So, in fact, if they were liberating Iraqi people, they were really liberating them from the man they out into power, in the first place, from the weapons they provided themselves, and from the regime installed and once supported by them. Does it make any sense to you? Does it all mean the USA will have to help the Iraqi people get rid of Franks or whoever they are going to put in power this time? They will have their reason, as they will say that this next "murderous dictator has got prohibited guns with depleted uranium" or something.
Look at the reasons for this war: 1.to capture or kill Saddam Hussein. Has it been achieved?
2. to find and destroy weapons of mass destruction. Has this been achieved?
3. to bring democracy Bush-style to the people of Iraq. Let's see... Is this looting that's supposed to be democracy?
4. to secure stable oil flow to the US. This is what the US navy are striving hard to do. This is where they get most results, as none oil wells have been documented to be set on fire by Saddam, and they Americans have, I believe, put out the fire at the ones they hit themselves.
5. to eliminate terrorism. Suicide bombings prove that the number of people willing to kill themselves only to destroy the invaders has grown and is growing.

Have I missed anything?
Yeah, some victory.
OF COURSE, LL, you were right.

[apathy maybe]

Just goes to show. This war wasn't all about oil. The US wanted a pliable dictator in power not someone who didn't/doesn't do as they say. Notice how Hussain only became a bad guy after he didn't pull out of Kuwuit.

[Invader Zim]

The falicys of the USA are not even relavant to the morals of this war. When you get right down to it the morals are basically, do we remove a Facist dicator who has in the past and will continue to commit genicide. Whic may cost the lives of thousands to even millions of people.

OR

Immidiatly pull out 1000 people have died.

1000 to 100,000

Which is the moral choise?

I think we all know the answer.

[IHP]

Sorry, I havent been on for a while.

"That's one pro in a plethora of cons."

Hmm, I beg to differ, consider:

*Independence for Papua New Guniea

*Promotion of the South Pacific Forum

*Ratification of human rights, nuclear disarmament, and refugee conventions

*Establishemnt of:

the Department of the Environment;

the National Parks and Wildlife service;

The Australian Heritage Commission;

the Depatment of Urban and regional development, which was responsible for among other things, flood mitigatio, land aqcuisition, urban renewal and regional growth centres like Albury-Wodonga;

the National Pipeline Authority to implement a national pipeline system;

the Institute of Criminology, Australian Legal Aid Office and the Law Reform Commission;

the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, the Aboriginal Land Rights Commission and the National Aboriginal Consultative Committee and Passage of the Racial Discrimination Act.

*Amalgamation of Air, Navy and Army into a single department of Defence.

*Replaced PMG's with Telecom (which would become Telstra) and Australia Post.

*Specific purpose grants to states, leading to the realization of projects such as the round-Australia highway linking the Adelaide to other capitals via standard guage railway.

*Abolition of the death penalty for Federal crimes.

*Reduction of the voting age to 18, and the introduction of one vote=one value in the HOR.

*Reform of divorce law witht he passage of the Family Law act, leading to the establishment of of the family court in 1976.

*Passage of the Trade Practices Act.

Tell me a PM that has done that in three years with an uncooperative Senate.

As for China, your Liberal party enjoy many benefits such as the 25 billion dollar gas trade deal recently signed, by the establishment of diplomatic relations by Whitlams administration.

"However, I get the feeling the liberals are going to be in power for a while yet...Simon Crean LMFA LOL LOL LMFAO."

Heres something I do agree with. Labor will never be in power with that boring old sod as leader.

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 9:01 am on April 15, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

”Tell me a PM that has done that in three years”

There isn’t one. This because Liberals are sane enough to recognise the dire consequences of spending money you do not have. Big government spending such as that undertaken by the Whitlam, and other labor governments, always results in huge foreign debt, inflation and unemployment. Liberal PM’s have never achieved what Whitlam did because they, understandably, think it not a good idea to embark on campaigns of mass spending that result in the desecration of the economy.

"As for China, your Liberal party enjoy many benefits such as the 25 billion dollar gas trade deal recently signed, by the establishment of diplomatic relations by Whitlam’s administration."

We are no longer ideological enemies with China as we were in the 70's. If the west had adopted Whitlam's attitude towards the Soviet-bloc and China you can be sure that marxism-lenninsm/maoism would have triumphed over capitalist-democracy. I guess you would have liked that but...VIVE LA GULAGS, HERE'S TO THE EQUAL DISTRIBUTION OF MISERY, COMMUNISM HAS ONLY KILLED 100 MILLION PEOPLE...LET'S GIVE IT ANOTHER CHANCE.

"Independence for Papua New Guniea"

So PNG was good enough for independence but East Timor and the Baltic states were not? I sniff a double standard.

”your Liberal party”

What party do you support anyway? Labor have at least been sensible enough to rid themselves of most elements of socialism so it can’t be them.

[redstar2000]

"...the desecration of the economy..." :cheesy:

Only a pro-capitalist would put it like that!

:cool:

[IHP]

"There isn’t one. This because Liberals are sane enough to recognise the dire consequences of spending money you do not have."

I'm sorry, but are you serious? You do know that the Senate being precious over the supply bill crippled what would have been a fresh labor breeze in a stale Liberal administration. But you conservatives just don't like actually getting things done...shock horror! Whitlam rolled his sleeves up and put in the hard yards. A liberal controlled senate is a joke. In fact, the bicameral system is a joke. The Senate don't represent the states interests as they should, but their parties interests. Thats why situations like the constitutional crisis occur.

"Liberal PM’s have never achieved what Whitlam did because they, understandably, think it not a good idea to embark on campaigns of mass spending that result in the desecration of the economy."

Need I remind of the agreements made by Whitlam? We have all your "enemies" trading with us for gargantuan returns to our economy. Whitlam created diplomatic relations with China, North Korea, and Vietnam. "Desecration of the economy"? I think not Lover boy, I think not.

We are no longer ideological enemies with China as we were in the 70's. If the west had adopted Whitlam's attitude towards the Soviet-bloc and China you can be sure that marxism-lenninsm/maoism would have triumphed over capitalist-democracy. I guess you would have liked that but...VIVE LA GULAGS, HERE'S TO THE EQUAL DISTRIBUTION OF MISERY, COMMUNISM HAS ONLY KILLED 100 MILLION PEOPLE...LET'S GIVE IT ANOTHER CHANCE"

So you, a capitalist, are saying that due to an ism you would give up the billions, and billions of dollars of trade? You hardly sound capitalist. Regardless of your stance, Whitlams actions and diplomatic ties will greatly benefit Australia and her well being for a very long time. As for all that upper-case rhetoric, yes, go and play with your toys.

"So PNG was good enough for independence but East Timor and the Baltic states were not? I sniff a double standard.

You're one to say double standards! Are we talking about ex-soviet bloc baltic states? The enemy!? Why on earth would we even recognize they even exist? AS for East Timor, well you can hardly blame Whitlam. But if you do, I will blame Menzies, he should have, and Fraser should have recognized heir independence also...LL, they only officially became independent a few years ago, dont try and point the finger at one man, because there are many who could have done so.

"What party do you support anyway? Labor have at least been sensible enough to rid themselves of most elements of socialism so it can’t be them.

Where have I ever called myself a socialist?

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 7:26 am on April 18, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

"But you conservatives just don't like actually getting things done...shock horror!"

The last Labor government gave us 17% interest rates, $96 billion of national government debt and 11% unemployment. When the Hon. John Howard came to office the Liberal Government was spending more money in meeting the interest bill on Labor's debt than they were spending on defence. Such was the extent of the debt that had been run up. Australia was spending $8.5 billion a year on servicing it.

In the 7 years the Howard government has been in office they have repaid about $60 billion of the debt that was run up recklessly by the Keating government. Not only have they achieved this, they have done it with the Labor party trying to stop them. And then Emerson has the nerve to give the Libs lectures about financial responsibility. The Labor party would not understand what that word means. Because when they were last in office they gave us atrociously high interest rates, atrociously high levels of unemployment and atrociously high levels of government debt. It’s been the responsibility of Peter the Great to get the finances of this country back in order.

Some Figures (http://www.liberal.org.au/reports/bts/035.htm)

"So you, a capitalist, are saying that due to an ism you would give up the billions, and billions of dollars of trade? You hardly sound capitalist. Regardless of your stance, Whitlams actions and diplomatic ties will greatly benefit Australia and her well being for a very long time."

Was China the flourishing capitalist power in the 70's that it is today? No. It was not until Deng Xioaping came to power in the 80’s that Sino-Australian economic relations took on any relevance. When Whitlam was PM the Cold War was very hot…the establishment of ties with China would have been similar to a British-German trade pact in 1943.

"Are we talking about ex-soviet bloc baltic states? The enemy!? Why on earth would we even recognize they even exist?"

Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania were handed over to the Soviets by the Nazis as part of the 1939 pact of non-aggression. Australia had recognised them as nations independent from the Soviet Empire until Whitlam came along. Fraser reversed this policy change.

AS for East Timor, well you can hardly blame Whitlam. But if you do, I will blame Menzies

Menzies resigned in 1966. Whitlam was PM in 1975 when Indonesia invaded East Timor.

"Where have I ever called myself a socialist?"

Err...that hammer and sickle on your avatar suggests you are.

[notyetacommie]

So you think the citizens of those Baltic states would be better off under Hitler? Maybe, as many of them were fighting on his side during WWII. So you would prefer them Nazis to have independent states. What do you actually call liberty that you love so much? Liberty for Nazis? Those who were not Nazis were actually quite content with life in the USSR. Their republics held the highest standards of living among all other republics of USSR.

Now, check out this:http://www.latinst.lv/li_eng_facts.htm
It says clearly that Latvia has "always been invaded by other larger nations". It was part of Russian empire until 18 November 1918. Incidentally, it was Soviets, not Australians who were first to recognise its independence. The international community (I take it Australia was part of it) only recognised it on January 26, 1921, three plus years later. There is nothing to boast of, dear exploitation lover. No one was for its independence when it was under the rule of capitalist Russian Empire, but the communists... They are always to blame! For the same actions! Following your logic you personally should leave Australia and let the aborigenes enjoy THEIR land! The same goes with USA. No, you will say that because it was a capitalistsic annexion it was just. Do you notice the fact that the nation was only independent for 19 years in its history? (since the time it was recognised by international community to the Soviet annexion). Plus less than 12 years since the Soviet Union let them go. Imagine USA letting, say, Hawaiians to be independent. After gaining their independence, the Baltic states were readily admitted to NATO, and recently they supported the coalition murderous looting in Iraq the same way some of them (now publicly praised in their countries) supported Nazis and even fought in the Nazi army. Yeah, this makes them your, Liberty Lover, ally forever.
Now, speaking about the debts and the capitalist efficiency. The national debt of the USSR in 1991 was 96.8 billion dollars. The current national debt of the USA is $6,463,882,714,11.67. 64 TIMES AS MUCH!!!! And it is growing at the rate of $1.18 billion per day!!!! That is, every 4 months they make more debts than Soviet Union in 70+ years of its existence!

[Liberty Lover]

Your post is hard to read because it’s smeared in shit.

[IHP]

"Your post is hard to read because it’s smeared in shit."

The same could be said for your post, although notyetacommie's post actually does make some sense.

"In the 7 years the Howard government has been in office they have repaid about $60 billion of the debt that was run up recklessly by the Keating government.. etc etc....

OK heres some quotes for you the "honorable" John of Arabia: I will not privatise telstra Telstra is slowly being sold off. I will not introduce a GST The GST was introduced. This I partly blame the Labor government for not capitalising on the obvious injustice of a GST. To pay off these debts, resources have been pulled from education, healthcare etc. Of course we might be clearing up some debt, but hell if we get sick, thats ok, we have a little less debt! This will be further destroyed by John of Arabias selling Medicare. Just 3 days ago he began upping the cost of essential medicines by 30%! Its all a part of his plan to destroy Bulk Billing. I imagine that its going to be quite difficult for the working class to see a doctor without forking our $50 for a few minutes.

"The last Labor government gave us 17% interest rates"

"Labor Media Statement - 17 April 2003
Today's Reserve Bank data on bank fees and the Australian Bankers Association commissioned analysis by Price Waterhouse Coopers reveal that during 2002:

Total bank fees were up 10% to $7.8 billion
Household fees were up 17% to $2.2 billion
The Reserve Bank today revealed that the increase in bank fee income from households was mainly derived from:

19% increase from housing
33% increase from personal loans
30% increase from credit cards
The Reserve Bank also reveals that account servicing fees are up 163 percent since 1995 and fees per transaction from using ATMs of other banks are up 250 percent since 1995."

Hmm, odd these have hiked since Howards administration came in. Coincidence? No.

"Peter the Great to get the finances of this country back in order."

I suggest you learn about Peter the Terribles latest tax initiative.

"Was China the flourishing capitalist power in the 70's that it is today? No. It was not until Deng Xioaping came to power in the 80’s that Sino-Australian economic relations took on any relevance."

Being of the conservative branding, you are thinking that relations are built on what exactly? Whitlam lay down the ground work, some ties were made, Australias foot was in the door.

"When Whitlam was PM the Cold War was very hot…the establishment of ties with China would have been similar to a British-German trade pact in 1943."

Please provide me with the document that sates that Asutralia with a population of around 10 million people at the time, was under very serious threat of attack from China. Thank you. In regards to the Anglo-German trade pact. That is one of the most rediculous comparisons I have ever seen. Have we been terror bombed by China? Were we mobilised against an aggressor? I see very few similarities, apart from an ideology, and only non-pluralists see that as such a brick wall.

"Menzies resigned in 1966. Whitlam was PM in 1975 when Indonesia invaded East Timor"

My reference to Menzies was merely a suggestion as to the rediculous nature of blaming one man for this, whereas all PM's could have acted. But I bring your attention to two dates:

November 11: Whitlam dismissed from office by G-G John Kerr.

December 7: Indonesia invades East Timor.

The way I see it, due to Whitlam not being in office, I don't understand why he is responsible. Frasers the man to ask Bucko.

"Err...that hammer and sickle on your avatar suggests you are." {socialist}

My avatar suggests nothing. The Hammer and Sickle represents the working class, not an ideology.

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

"'I will not introduce a GST' The GST was introduced. This I partly blame the Labor government for not capitalising on the obvious injustice of a GST. To pay off these debts, resources have been pulled from education, healthcare etc. Of course we might be clearing up some debt, but hell if we get sick, thats ok, we have a little less debt!"

Voters went into the 1998 election fully aware that a GST would be implemented in the following financial year. Perhaps if Labor’s debt had not been so high funds would not have been lifted from education, health etc…and a GST would not have been needed to refund these areas. Blaming the Liberal party for Labor’s commonwealth debt his absolutely pathetic “bucko”. The Labor Party never opposed tax reform anyway. It was just an opportunist position. They knew it had to be done, they just wanted Howard to do the heavy lifting work. Now that the heavy lifting work has been done, they have dropped their opposition to it.

"I imagine that its going to be quite difficult for the working class to see a doctor without forking our $50 for a few minutes."

Why does the working class support labor anyway? The Liberals are the reason they have jobs. Maybe its because Labor doesn’t present as many opportunities for them to have a good strike and bludge a few days off work.

"I suggest you learn about Peter the Terribles latest tax initiative."

The GST is a tax system that provides a stable and equitable revenue source to fund significant government services, such as schools, roads, bridges and hospitals. It dealt effectively with the many pressures facing the old tax regime.

"Labor Media Statement - 17 April 2003
Today's Reserve Bank data on bank fees and the Australian Bankers Association commissioned analysis by Price Waterhouse Coopers reveal that during 2002:

Total bank fees were up 10% to $7.8 billion
Household fees were up 17% to $2.2 billion
The Reserve Bank today revealed that the increase in bank fee income from households was mainly derived from:

19% increase from housing
33% increase from personal loans
30% increase from credit cards
The Reserve Bank also reveals that account servicing fees are up 163 percent since 1995 and fees per transaction from using ATMs of other banks are up 250 percent since 1995."

Labor’s $10.3 billion budget deficit has been more than eliminated;

$60 billion of Labor’s $96 billion government debt has been repaid;

Home mortgage rates have been reduced from a record high of 17% under Labor to 6.82% today, saving Australian families over $740 every month on an average $100,000 home loan. Today, the average home buyer is saving more than $300 each month on their interest bill compared to March 1996;

Interest rates for small business peaked above 20% under Labor and are now around 8%;

The average inflation rate under Labor has been more than halved;

The creation of more than 1, 000,000 jobs has ensured that the unemployment rate is well below that left by Labor; and

Supported by higher productivity and fewer working days lost to strikes, real wages have grown by an average of 2 per cent a year, six times faster than under Labor.

"Whitlam lay down the ground work, some ties were made, Australias foot was in the door."

Whitlam could not have predicted the essential collapse of the communist economy in China. Nor could he have suspected anything beneficial would result in making deals with a man who had just launched a “cultural revolution” that resulted in the deaths of 20 million people and the destruction of his countries economy. The reason he established ties with China was because he was sympathetic to the communist cause. As a consequence the one thing deterring an invasion from Indonesia was jeopardised: ANZUS.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 6:00 am on April 20, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

My reference to Menzies was merely a suggestion as to the rediculous nature of blaming one man for this, whereas all PM's could have acted. But I bring your attention to two dates:

November 11: Whitlam dismissed from office by G-G John Kerr.

December 7: Indonesia invades East Timor.

The way I see it, due to Whitlam not being in office, I don't understand why he is responsible. Frasers the man to ask Bucko.


"Official documents released by the Australian government last week confirm that the Whitlam Labor government actively encouraged the Suharto regime in Indonesia to invade East Timor in 1975, a policy that led to the deaths of an estimated 200,000 Timorese people in the following years." (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/sep2000/timo-s18.shtml)

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 6:28 am on April 20, 2003)

[IHP]

"Voters went into the 1998 election fully aware that a GST would be implemented in the following financial year. Perhaps if Labor’s debt had not been so high funds would not have been lifted from education, health etc…and a GST would not have been needed to refund these areas."

So you're admitting that the GST takes more money from the people? What you're leaving out is that the money is coming from the lower classes. While the upper classes pay about the same, there is no relativity. While I agree that tax reform was necessary. GST is wrong.

"Many hundreds of thousands of low income Australians without children who are unemployed, or are in low-paid work, or live in a boarding house or caravan park face a high risk of being worse off. Some middle-income households are also at risk of being worse off. These include couples without children on a single full-time wage of about $30,000 or two low wages."

"This analysis is both disturbing and disappointing. It shows that tax reform will not only produce low income losers, but it will escalate income inequality and produce a more unfair Australia. The Government has clearly failed the primary test of tax reform and lost a great opportunity to introduce a tax reform package that would benefit all Australians."

http://www.acoss.org.au/media/2000/mr000623.htm

http://www.acoss.org.au/taxreform/eat/eat1.htm


"Blaming the Liberal party for Labor’s commonwealth debt his absolutely pathetic “bucko”.

Where have I said anything about this, bucko?

"The Labor Party never opposed tax reform anyway. It was just an opportunist position. They knew it had to be done, they just wanted Howard to do the heavy lifting work. Now that the heavy lifting work has been done, they have dropped their opposition to it."

Never really opposed tax reform!! Are you serious? They were all for Tax reform, it was the GST they were opposed to, it was central their campaign. To quote Kim Beazley "Its either me or the GST". They opposed it until they were blue in the face. I already said that I think that they didn't capitalise on the GST, which was why John of Arabia got away with it.

"Why does the working class support labor anyway? The Liberals are the reason they have jobs. Maybe its because Labor doesn’t present as many opportunities for them to have a good strike"

Yes, of course, all these people should support Liberals. They should support their children attending substandard schools, or travelling great distances to actually attend. They should indeed support the demolition of bulk billing, and the poor state of emergency wards in hospitals. As for the strikes, Labor has much better relations with the unions, therefore actually listening to the pleas of the working class.

"and bludge a few days off work."

Get a clue.

Re: All those statistics provided.

I am not arguing for the Labor party remember, I am simply pointing out the inadequecies of Liberal policy. Poor finances up until that point is due to successive governments poor management, and being too closely tied to North American finances hence the recession in the late 80's/early 90's. When North America coughs, Australia gets a cold.

"he reason he established ties with China was because he was sympathetic to the communist cause. As a consequence the one thing deterring an invasion from Indonesia was jeopardised: ANZUS."

Um, i'm not sure why you'd say that. The reason he was concerned about East Timor becoming independent from Portugal is that the most powerful guerilla group Fretilin was Marxist. I remeber you saying about another county "it doesn't matter who gts it, as long as its not the reds" And you accused me of double standards. Whitlam established good relations with Indonesia, the benefits would be innumerable, except that we almost went to war with Indonesia a few years ago. Howards anti-asian stance doesn't help there.

And Whitlam destroyed ANZUS? I'm more inclined to believe that the US destroyed it. They know that NZ boasts a non-nuclear policy, they should park their subs somewhere else. If only Australia was as independent.

As I said Whitlam did support Suharto, that is undeniable. However his reasons are hardly sinister. Your anti-Marxist stance should understand that. Also, Fraser was actually care-taker PM when it happened, why didn't he take steps to stop it?

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 8:14 am on April 21, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

"So you're admitting that the GST takes more money from the people?"

Yes, but they get it back through lower income taxes.

"What you're leaving out is that the money is coming from the lower classes. While the upper classes pay about the same, there is no relativity. While I agree that tax reform was necessary. GST is wrong."

The GST is a fair and effective tax system.

"Where have I said anything about this, bucko?"

You were criticising the Liberal party for paying off Australia’s debt, as if it was their fault.

"Yes, of course, all these people should support Liberals. They should support their children attending substandard schools, or travelling great distances to actually attend. They should indeed support the demolition of bulk billing, and the poor state of emergency wards in hospitals."

I was always under the impression that education, transport, and health were primarily the responsibility of the states, which happen to be all under Labor party governance.

"Howards anti-asian stance doesn't help there."

Accusations that Howard is anti-Asian are ridiculous. Admittedly some Asian nations are not overly happy with Australia right now, but this has nothing to do with race. That fat ***** Megawati Surkhano-Putri is pissed off with us about East Timor, and Mahatir hates us because we have expressed our concern regarding the dictatorial manner in which he rules. There is no question that the self-determination of the East Timorese people would have been neglected in favour of closer ties with Indonesia had the Labor party been in government. We mustn’t forget Australia’s ever-increasing ties with Singapore, Japan, South Korea and China either…are these not Asian countries?

"And Whitlam destroyed ANZUS?."

I never said he destroyed it I said he ‘jeopardised’ it, which he did.

"If only Australia was as independent."

You underestimate the significance of the ANZUS treaty to the defense of this nation. It is true that, as it stands, no country, bar the US, has the ability to gain and maintain the air and naval superiority necessary to launch an invasion of Australia, but ANZUS is still one of the most important aspects of our national security.

"ANZUS is much more than symbolic. It also provides a framework for practical cooperation between Australia and the United States in areas such as defence technologies and logistics, intelligence and support arrangements. As an important component of the alliance, the Joint Facilities contribute to global peace and stability, including through treaty monitoring and arms control. Australia provides support for US deployments in the Asia-Pacific and the Indian Ocean regions. Australian and US forces train and exercise together on a regular basis, while the US is an important source of high technology equipment for Australia, contributing to Australia's self-reliant defence policy.

The scope and need for such cooperation has increased in recent years with substantial changes both in the regional security environment and in our domestic defence policies. This Government is committed to examining practical ways in which to reflect these changes by enhancing Australia's defence links with the US under ANZUS." -Alexander Downer Full (http://www.australianpolitics.com/foreign/anzus/96-05-29downer.shtml)


(Edited by Liberty Lover at 12:39 pm on April 21, 2003)

[IHP]

"Yes, but they get it back through lower income taxes"

The people in the lower socio-economic brackets don't earn enough to be subsidised for the increased price on goods and services.

Hang on, don't respond, I'm at work and I have to go. I will finish this off when I knock off.

--IHP

[IHP]

My apologies...

"The GST is a fair and effective tax system."

These are some links I provided in my last post about the how poorer people lose out.

http://www.acoss.org.au/media/2000/mr000623.htm

http://www.acoss.org.au/taxreform/eat/eat1.htm

"You were criticising the Liberal party for paying off Australia’s debt, as if it was their fault."

I was critisizing their priorities.

"I was always under the impression that education, transport, and health were primarily the responsibility of the states, which happen to be all under Labor party governance."

Well, I wasn't going to go there...but in Victoria we are still suffering from Jeff Kennetts useless administration.

"Accusations that Howard is anti-Asian are ridiculous"

I belive adopting some OneNation policy counts as anti-asian. Trade agreements with more affluent nations is critical to Australia's economy, he wouldn't let prejudice get in the way of that.

"never said he destroyed it I said he ‘jeopardised’ it, which he did."

He didn't destroy it, so whats the issue? It was intact until the New Zealand incident.

"but ANZUS is still one of the most important aspects of our national security."

I will agree that an invasion of Australia would be sheer folly. We are exchanging what are important ties with Indonesia with a population, and military strength many times our own, for strong ties with the US, which are of course beneficial to an extent. If we are of such importance to the US, why are we seeing tariffs on our meat and steel?

--IHP

[Dan Majerle]

The GST is hardly a fair tax when it is a base 10% tax on good and services for all people, not distinguishing between incomes. So a millionaire would obviously benefit greater from a 10% tax on bread than a poor person would. The GST doesn't allow for different circumstances and attempts to introduce equality in taxation in a class system whose incomes are antagonist to such a thought! (The exclamation mark was for effect, so we startled!) :)

P.S. Hi IHP! :)

[Liberty Lover]

Regarding GST stuff.

“Well, self-employed people who are earning are paying tax, they’re paying tax and they get tax cuts. If they’re not earning, they’ll be getting job search allowances. If they’re studying, they’d be getting Austudy allowances. If they’re families, they’d be getting family allowances. All of these allowances are being increased. Now what we’ve said is, if you could find these cases, and they have to be pretty unusual cases of people who don’t earn anything and somehow don’t qualify for a pension, then if they come forward we would provide them with some assistance. But can I say this. It’s never been done in the past, you know, in the past where there’s, if you could find people that don’t earn anything and somehow don’t qualify for a benefit, and the CPI goes up, as it did regularly right throughout the 1980’s and 1990’s, I never saw a Government before saying you could come forward and claim an additional benefit. So here we are, we’ve done, doing something that’s never been done before. Never, ever been done before.”-Peter Costello Full (http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/transcripts/2000/073.asp)

It is reasonable to believe that, due to their record of high inflation, products would cost more under Labor anyway.

What is your current status? High School/Uni/Work?

"Well, I wasn't going to go there...but in Victoria we are still suffering from Jeff Kennetts useless administration."

State politics is so boring. I hardly know anything about the situation in my own state (except that Bob Carr looks like Kermit the frog) let alone others. I'm just enjoying the disarray in the federal Labor party. Simon Crean is a fucking idiot, plain and simple. Just the other day he said that being part of the nuclear missile shield means stationing atomic weapons on Australian soil, when the program involves using conventional warheads to intercept nuclear weapons. This was almost (almost!) as stupid as Natasha Stott-Despoja's claim that women in Taliban Afghanistan received maternity leave.

I guess you can't expect too much from a unionist.

“I will agree that an invasion of Australia would be sheer folly. We are exchanging what are important ties with Indonesia with a population, and military strength many times our own, for strong ties with the US, which are of course beneficial to an extent.”

My stance towards Indonesia differs somewhat to the governments. That country is an aggressive power that is heavily influenced by its military. Under no circumstances should it be appeased. The reestablishment of ties with the TNI and Koppassas is not only shameful but also dangerous. I do not believe we should sit back and watch Indonesia’s brutal suppression of the West Papuan people, nor do I think we should be assisting in the training of soldiers that we may one day be at war with.

"If we are of such importance to the US"

Our importance to the US is minimal, but the US’ importance to us is incalculable.

"why are we seeing tariffs on our meat and steel?"

The President wants to establish a free trade deal with Australia that would remove such tariffs, but the US farm lobbyists are getting in the way.

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/Winston.jpg

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 11:29 am on April 23, 2003)

[IHP]

"Regarding GST stuff"

I am at uni, when I was in high school I received allowances. They increased only with age, not the introduction of GST. But the red tape increased three-fold.

"What is your current status? High School/Uni/Work"

Second year uni. And yourself?

"State politics is so boring"

Thats a shame, I have so much crap of the Napthine administration in Victoria, as I used to work for the Lorraine Elliott, the shadow minister for arts and community services. Not through political similarites mind you, only through friendship. And the opportunity to work in parliament of course!

"My stance towards Indonesia differs somewhat to the governments. That country is an aggressive power that is heavily influenced by its military. Under no circumstances should it be appeased."

Whitlam knew that growth was through ASia, and he established ties with Indonesia. 30 odd years of good relations and trade, and this situation would never have arisen.

"Our importance to the US is minimal, but the US’ importance to us is incalculable."

I suppose thats why Mark Latham called Johnny an "Arse Licker" how appropriate!

"The President wants to establish a free trade deal with Australia that would remove such tariffs, but the US farm lobbyists are getting in the way."

Free trade eh? We'llsee how this free trade works out...

--IHP

btw: Danny-Boy! Hows Monash going? keep it real wesside homie. Peace out.

[Liberty Lover]

Second year uni. And yourself?

Last year of high school. What course are you doing at what uni?

Free trade eh? We'llsee how this free trade works out...

Yes...yes we will.

[IHP]

I'm studying politics and international relations. What do you want to do next year?

"Yes...yes we will"

Yes...yes we will.

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

What do you want to do next year?

International relations at unsw.

[IHP]

Best of luck with that.

[dopediana]

Quote: from AK47 on 5:51 pm on April 10, 2003

Thats a good point, however you and others were saying this was a war which went against against the public opinion etc. You based this assumption on the fact that millions turned out to protest. In this country 1000,000 people turned up in london. What about the other 61,000,000 people who did not?

I think there is a little bit of hypocracy here.



sure, there's hypocracy (my ass). 1,000,000 people is an awesome turnout for protests. and i don't think london could contain 62,000,000 people anyway. so get over it.

[IHP]

Right, well this thread just did an about-face.

--IHP

[hazard]

ihp:

there was a sorta homage to pinochet in SCTV, a comedy series from canada. in it, the owner of the virtual Tv station rode in a wheelchair, like pinochet, even though he could walk and shit. "Guy Caballerro", played by Joe Flaherty, was in reality a cruel and manipulative man who underpaid and harrassed all of workers.

thought you might be interested

[IHP]

Interested, it sounds hilarious. Though over in the arse of the world (Jerry Seinfeld) I probably wont see it. So it was a series, or was it just one episode of the series?

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 7:44 am on April 26, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

"I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect, elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down." [I Love] Thatcher

[dopediana]

oops. well i sort of cut right back to few weeks ago when i was still reading through all the pages....
you're at 666 posts, ihp, you devil you.

[hazard]

oh yeah, it was a series

ran for almost a decade too. alot of canadian comics got their start in it back in the late seventies and early eighties.

SCTV - second city television, you've probably heard of the stand up comedy club "Second City", right? thats where it got its name. the show alternated between the lousy shows of the station and its ads to the "behind the scenes" stuff with management and actors.

some of its best known actors:

John Candy
Rick Moranis
Martin Short
Eugene Levy
Catherine O'hara

it really should be released onto a dvd collection or something. its never on anymore. used to run back to back with the twilight zone during the summers when I was growing up at lunch time.

[IHP]

LL, yes, very good. Lets not go there.

Ammy, well, i didn't even notice...altough my fire just lit itself....

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

You should enjoy this one

http://www.chromehorse.net/rants/rants99/thatcher.htm

[IHP]

Second city sounds familiar though I didn't know it was a comedy club...what a sheltered lad. I'll keep my eyes open. Was the series called "Guy Caballerro" or was that just the pseudo pinochet characters name?

--IHP

[hazard]

the series was called SCTV. Guy was a character in thats how.

[IHP]

"You should enjoy this one"

You could call it "enjoying" or it could be called feeling ill. Its disgusting isn't it.

Hazard: oh..I see. I'll look out for it.

--IHP