Anyone here who doesn't like Che?

[OI OI OI]

I might be the only one here, but I really don't like Che Guevara.

He used to be my idol when I was 14 but that's about it.

I mean he had good intentions and all , but he was a Stalino-Maoist, he had the worst tactics (guerillaism) and he wasn't even a good tactician .Although he has my respect for being an internationalist I don't really like Che Guevara.

[Tower of Bebel]

The ICC doesn't either.

[Pogue]

Actualy, Che heavily criticised Stalin. Read the Fidel Castro autobiography ("My Life: Fidel Castro), he makes it all clear.

[revolution inaction]

I don't like him either
article on che
http://libcom.org/history/guevara-ernesto-che-1928-1967

and one about cuba

http://libcom.org/library/cuba-socialist-paradise-castro-fiefdom-wsm

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't care about him either way.

[Fawkes]

He's dead, so I don't really give a shit either way.

[shorelinetrance]

I don't care about him either way.
this

[#FF0000]

He's done things that have impressed me, but I'm indifferent towards him. I'll go out of my way to defend him against right-wing psychotics, though. Shattering someone's worldview is a nice way to pass the time.

[Lenin's Law]

I think Che was a great, self sacrificing revolutionary who was the complete antithesis of an armchair revolutionary. He could have been satisfied with a comfy bureacratic position in Cuba (or for that matter, a comfy middle class life in Argentina as a doctor) but instead risked his life in Africa and later gave up his life in Bolivia. However, with that being said, his idea of guerilla warfare to defeat capitalism has obviously been showed to be incorrect. Even in places where it was successful (Cuba, China, Vietnam) it did not lead to a healthy workers state but a degeneration which lead to a privileged bureacratic clique.

OI - You should read what the IMT said about Che here -

http://www.marxist.com/forty-years-death-che-guevara091007.htm


Lenin wrote in State and Revolution: "What is now happening to Marx's theory has, in the course of history, happened repeatedly to the theories of revolutionary thinkers and leaders of oppressed classes fighting for emancipation. During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the ‘consolation' of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it."

After his death, Guevara became an icon of socialist revolutionary movements and a key figure of modern pop culture worldwide. The Alberto Korda photo of Che has become famous, appearing on t-shirts and protest banners all over the world. Thus, Che has become an icon of our times. After the death of Lenin, the leading clique of Stalin and Zinoviev created a cult around his figure. Against Krupskaya's wishes, his body was embalmed and placed on public display in the mausoleum in Red Square. Later Krupskaya stated: "All his life Vladimir Ilyich was against icons, and now they have turned him into an icon."

In November 2005, the German magazine Der Spiegel wrote about Europe's "peaceful revolutionaries" whom it describes as the heirs of Gandhi and Guevara [!]. This is a complete travesty. We should form a "Society for the Protection of Che Guevara" against the people who have nothing to with Marxism, the class struggle or socialist revolution, and who wish to paint an entirely false picture of Che as a kind of revolutionary saint, a romantic petty bourgeois, an anarchist, a Gandhian pacifist or some other nonsense of the sort.

Our attitude to this outstanding revolutionary is similar to the attitude of Lenin towards Rosa Luxemburg. While not concealing his criticisms of the mistakes of Rosa Luxemburg, Lenin held Rosa Luxemburg in high regard as a revolutionary and internationalist.

[Bilan]

Indifferent.

[OI OI OI]

OI - You should read what the IMT said about Che here -

I guess I don't agree with the IMT on this:lol:

[RadicalRadical]

Yeah, I can't really hate or him or like him.

[spice756]

What is up with all the anti-Che Guevara and anti-Castro post at revleft has of late?

You are starting to believe the US propaganda.

Why would anyone not support Che Guevara and Castro ? If it was not for them the US would own Cuba and Cuba would be capitalists.

Along with the mob ruling.And racial discrimination.No free healthcare and education.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I couldn't care less about him.

[JimmyJazz]

I give him an A++ in anti-imperialism and a C+ in socialism.

[Devrim]

Che was an anti-working class Stalinist.


and Cuba would be capitalist

It is.

Devrim

[spice756]

Che was an anti-working class Stalinist.



It is.

Devrim

Are you a capitalist:confused: I know of no left person who would say this kinda thing.

[Incendiarism]

I think he's cool. If I had to speak critically I would bring up his stance on homosexuals, though there is reason to believe he would have taken the same route as Fidel concerning them.

[Wanted Man]

I don't like him either
article on che
http://libcom.org/history/guevara-ernesto-che-1928-1967

and one about cuba

http://libcom.org/library/cuba-socialist-paradise-castro-fiefdom-wsm
How boring.

[Trystan]

I went for "don't like him". But I'm really more "so-so". I remember getting a book about him when I was about 12, I never idolized him, but he seemed like a good enough guy. But whatever, he's nothing but a capitalist money maker these days.

[RHIZOMES]

but he was a Stalino-Maoist, he had the worst tactics (guerillaism) and he wasn't even a good tactician .Although he has my respect for being an internationalist I don't really like Che Guevara.

I hate people that put tendencies above the revolution. I admire Che, and I'm still doubtful whether I would have the balls to do the things he did, for the revolution and for the working masses. What does his opinion on Mao or Stalin have to do with his practice at all?


I went for "don't like him". But I'm really more "so-so". I remember getting a book about him when I was about 12, I never idolized him, but he seemed like a good enough guy. But whatever, he's nothing but a capitalist money maker these days.

So you shouldn't like him because the capitalists have commodified him?

[Trystan]

So you shouldn't like him because the capitalists have commodified him?

No, but cheers for the red herring.

[Lenin's Law]

"What is now happening to Marx's theory has, in the course of history, happened repeatedly to the theories of revolutionary thinkers and leaders of oppressed classes fighting for emancipation. During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the ‘consolation' of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it."



The fact that Che has been commodified has been discussed previously. I think those that argue against Che using this as a reason are somewhat utopian in their views; our clothing is created by capitalists. Working class people constantly buy clothes manufactured by capitalists. So now the question becomes what kind of clothes should we wear? I would much rather see someone wear a shirt of a revolutionary (of any of the various left ideologies) than a Nike Swoosh or some some piece of (free) corporate advertising.

After all, the capitalists produce something else too as Marx pointed out:



What the bourgeoisie above all produces are its own gravediggers

[RHIZOMES]

No, but cheers for the red herring.

That's just how you sounded man...

[Bilan]

Are you a capitalist:confused: I know of no left person who would say this kinda thing.

Here's another one: It is.
Socialised health care =/= socialism.
Cuba isn't socialist.

[Holden Caulfield]

I guess I don't agree with the IMT on this:lol:

split with them,

i like Che i suppose, anybody with a cigar is cool in my view, he is like a communist version of bender from futurama, a badass but still cool

....

[Knight of Cydonia]

what the heck is so-so ? does it means, so i like him in my past life and so now i hate him?

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Che Guevara secrificed himself for the sake of the Cuban People.
So yes, I like him.
I'm reading his memoires now.

[Devrim]

Are you a capitalist:confused: I know of no left person who would say this kinda thing.

No, I am a worker, not a capitalist. I also consider myself to be a communist.

This article explains our position on Che Guevara: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2007/che-guevara

I imagine from your statement that you don't know that many left-wing people.

Devrim

[coda]

both those articles are vulgar tripe. Che is the consummate revolutionary who always upheld the common people. Guerrillaism works fine along side working class insurrection.

[Dystisis]

I give him an A++ in anti-imperialism and a C+ in socialism.
Same here.

In general he was a positive figure in history.

[John Lenin]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Che_on_Mule_in_Las_Villas_Nov_1958.jpg



With all due respect to the posters who have commented here, I find most of this thread disconcerting, ill-informed, and unfortunate. :sleep:


To me Che Guevara is one of the most heroic figures in world history who is a stoic example of what all those who speak of “revolution” should espouse to be.


This was a man who left a bourgeoisie comfortable life of the upper class, a potential well compensated career as a medical doctor, and a high regarded governmental position --- each time to slog through the jungle and fight guerrilla wars against impenetrable odds = for a better and more equitable society.


I endorse Jean Paul Sartre’s declaration that Guevara was the “most complete man of our time” … and find his life not only fascinating but deeply inspiring.


Guevara despite his crippling and acute asthma which would debilitate him almost daily to inches from death, directed “suicide squads” in the battle against the U.S. armed and backed Dictator Batista where with less than 300 men; he literally took on 10,000 Batista soldiers armed with tanks, jets, and U.S. weaponry, and came out victorious at and leading up to the victory at Santa Clara.


In Bolivia, Guevara spent almost over 1 hellish year in the festering jungle battling a disease which left his hands as mounds of swollen flesh, the fact that his allergic reaction to mosquito bites would leave walnut sized welts all over his body, kept fighting even when he was without food for nearly a month, went shoeless, without blankets, and STILL with less than 30 men took on a force of 1,800 Bolivian U.S. armed rangers with an air force, green beret advisors, and CIA technology. Despite these odds Guevara’s men killed 30 Bolivian troops before they even lost their first Guerrilla. Moreover, displaying his character, despite all these hardships, when Guevara could have simply taken the food of Bolivian campesinos to eat, he insisted on paying for everything.


Throughout his life Che tended to thousands of sick campesinos, helped construct dozens of schools throughout Cuba, worked in a Leper colony to helped those afflicted, and even when he was literally tied up in a small mud school house awaiting his own execution ! , still complained to the local teacher that in a nation where the leaders drove Mercedes … it was a travesty that the peasants were taught in a dilapidated place like he was in.


Although I don’t believe in religious dogma (neither did Che), and view myself as an atheist, I do find it telling that the person Che was so often compared to by those who knew him was Jesus Christ. Because of his implacable character, unbending morals, and innate desire to fight in favor of the afflicted, I think that those who knew him were left with no other figure to compare him to.


Was he perfect? Of course not. No human is. But in mind he was awfully close considering the circumstances and cards he was dealt. I also find it telling that the best “canard” his detractors and those propagandists of monopoly capitalism can come up with - was his short stint at La Cabana prison. Where Che simply reviewed the cases and convictions of war criminals convicted by revolutionary tribunal (modeled after Nuremburg). The same secret police and Batista backed torturers that killed 20,000 people and tortured tens of thousands more. At a time when Fidel and Che would release military captives in the Sierra after tending to them medically, Batista would gouge the eyes out of captives until they gave away rebel positions. The fact that Che saw to it that justice was delivered cold to the Cuban people to me only makes him more heroic. He knew that a “pedagogy of the wall” was the only thing that could cleanse a society from the thousands of goons who raped and terrorized it with impunity.


Yet I still see those on the left apply some sort of “perfectionist” fallacy to Guevara or more foolishly overlook his heroism on the basis of the fact that Capitalists profit from his defiant image. This is exactly what the capitalist vampires want. They will take every hero of the toilers and the left and revise them into “terrorists” … they will take every noble guerrilla who fought against imperialism and craft them into “mad men” so as to make you think that heroism and socialism/Marxism etc are antithetical concepts. If this doesn’t work … the Capitalist/Imperialists will try to make our heroes into caricatures, or “de-fanged” banal symbols of popular culture – so as to “devalue” their serious and conceptual analysis. Thus Che dawns a bikini, Mao dawns a purse, and Lenin dawns your Zippo lighter.


We on the 'revolutionary left' MUST not fall for that sort of non-sense. And I would implore those who give credence to the idea of a world revolution … to give much deserved recognition to one of the few men in the past century who literally threw aside “the arm chair” and went out to (imperfectly) create it.


If the world had 100 Che’s … or hell even 10 … we would be in much better shape.


Hasta la Victoria Siempre !


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/CheinBolivia1.jpg

[Incendiarism]

Good post, John Lenin

[Comrade Stern]

ive come to know him as a ruthless, murderer, warmonger...heres some quotes by him as an example “In fact, if Christ himself stood in my way, I, like Nietzsche, would not hesitate to squish him like a worm” personally i dont see christ as the son of god...but its what he represents that che is gonna squish...and "If the missiles had remained we would have used them against the very heart of America including New York. We must never establish peaceful coexistence. In this struggle to the death between two systems we must gain the ultimate victory. We must walk the path of liberation even if it costs millions of atomic victims."... he clearly was gonna kill millions of people if he could with his blood stained hands

i also believe the greatest revolution is a bloodless one he and he did not exemplify that and if he would have been placed in power he simply would have abused it... like in this quote by him "Cruel leaders are replaced only to have new leaders turn cruel" does he think he was the only one to transcend that? i think not...

i beg of you to prove me otherwise

[#FF0000]

*words*

i beg of you to prove me otherwise

You have to take into consideration the situation of Latin America at the time. There was horrendous poverty and plenty of brutal dictators to go around. Most of these dictators (all?) were supported by the United States, including Cuba's Batista, up until Che and Fidel started that little revolution over there. The U.S. and Batista would not (and did not) show Che or any Cuban revolutionaries any sort of mercy, and so naturally, Che can't be expected to do the same.

Not saying he was a saint and was always in the right, but to call Che a murderer is to say that he killed people who were not already planning on killing (or torturing) him, and to say he's a warmonger is to say that he fought for no good reason.

[Dóchas]

i think one of his greatest characteristics was that he never wanted to give up. the best example is when he was fighting in the congo he was sick with dysentry and was suffering greatly from his crippling asthma he was asked to return to cuba with the other guerrillas but he wanted to stay on his own to keep fighting. only a very dedicated person would take those impossible odds the way che did.

[John Lenin]

Good post, John Lenin
Thanks





i also believe the greatest revolution is a bloodless one he and he did not exemplify that
So Che should have simply asked Batista to close his rape rooms and BRAC torture chambers ? Che should have simply nicely asked the local land oligarchs to share their haciendas with the peasants and give them a little more food to eat ? I am sure they would have smiled and complied. :rolleyes:

What world do you live in ? Because it sounds quaint.

When it comes to revolution you use whatever means are necessary and puppet dictators and despots don't care how many "kumbaya" candle vigils you organize ... they will simply just run you over with their tank.

[JimmyJazz]

ive come to know him as a ruthless, murderer, warmonger...heres some quotes by him as an example “In fact, if Christ himself stood in my way, I, like Nietzsche, would not hesitate to squish him like a worm” personally i dont see christ as the son of god...but its what he represents that che is gonna squish...and "If the missiles had remained we would have used them against the very heart of America including New York. We must never establish peaceful coexistence. In this struggle to the death between two systems we must gain the ultimate victory. We must walk the path of liberation even if it costs millions of atomic victims."... he clearly was gonna kill millions of people if he could with his blood stained hands

i also believe the greatest revolution is a bloodless one he and he did not exemplify that and if he would have been placed in power he simply would have abused it... like in this quote by him "Cruel leaders are replaced only to have new leaders turn cruel" does he think he was the only one to transcend that? i think not...

i beg of you to prove me otherwise

You've obviously been reading your Che in the form of cherry-picked quotes from right-wing sources. I mean, you can prove me wrong if you are able to produce any quote from Che that doesn't seem to reveal him as a sociopathic murderer. Why don't you try reading some unedited stuff (http://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/works.htm)?

Not that this necessarily makes Che's comments just fine, but do I need to remind you of the kind of comments American and other Western leaders made during the height of the cold war? In secret, they openly advocated the murdering of millions of people to preserve the hegemony of American capitalism. In public, they advocated the same exact thing in a more veiled fashion.

http://www.quotesandsayings.com/qvietnam.htm

''The Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does a Westerner. Life is plentiful. Life is cheap in the Orient."--Gen. William Westmoreland on the Vietnamese.

And remember, Che just talked about nuclear holocaust. The USA did it. Twice. And they firebombed the fuck out of civilian residential areas in Japan and Germany. Then in Vietnam they dropped more than three times as many bombs (8 million tons) on a tiny, backward Asian country as they had dropped in all of WWII. They helped install all kinds of repressive fascist dictators, like Pinochet and Suharto, and a few CIA-led coups literally led to genocide, as in Indonesia and Guatemala.

So was Che right to "advocate" (he had missiles and didn't do it, so obviously he wasn't too serious) New York City? Right or not, it certainly would be hard to make the case that he was advocating an out-of-the-blue, offensive strike. He would only have been returning an overdue favor from the third world. That wouldn't make it right--which is probably why he didn't do it even though he could have--but it makes the comment a tad more understandable.

[Post-Something]

He's not really that important tbh.

[Comrade Stern]

You've obviously been reading your Che in the form of cherry-picked quotes from right-wing sources. I mean, you can prove me wrong if you are able to produce any quote from Che that doesn't seem to reveal him as a sociopathic murderer. Why don't you try reading some

Not that this necessarily makes Che's comments just fine, but do I need to remind you of the kind of comments American and other Western leaders made during the height of the cold war? In secret, they openly advocated the murdering of millions of people to preserve the hegemony of American capitalism. In public, they advocated the same exact thing in a more veiled fashion.



''The Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does a Westerner. Life is plentiful. Life is cheap in the Orient."--Gen. William Westmoreland on the Vietnamese.

And remember, Che just talked about nuclear holocaust. The USA did it. Twice. And they firebombed the fuck out of civilian residential areas in Japan and Germany. Then in Vietnam they dropped more than three times as many bombs (8 million tons) on a tiny, backward Asian country as they had dropped in all of WWII. They helped install all kinds of repressive fascist dictators, like Pinochet and Suharto, and a few CIA-led coups literally led to genocide, as in Indonesia and Guatemala.

So was Che right to "advocate" (he had missiles and didn't do it, so obviously he wasn't too serious) New York City? Right or not, it certainly would be hard to make the case that he was advocating an out-of-the-blue, offensive strike. He would only have been returning an overdue favor from the third world. That wouldn't make it right--which is probably why he didn't do it even though he could have--but it makes the comment a tad more understandable.


youre right... i take back calling him a murderer and a warmonger but i still dont canonize him or wear him on t-shirts...not that you do but some people do... i think we should just accept him for what he was

[Glenn Beck]

I hate people that put tendencies above the revolution. I admire Che, and I'm still doubtful whether I would have the balls to do the things he did, for the revolution and for the working masses. What does his opinion on Mao or Stalin have to do with his practice at all?

QFT.

Che was a very visible revolutionary hero whose prominence has magnified both his virtues and his faults. I don't think his faults are deal-breakers or frankly all that terrible or unique. I think they are outweighed by the sacrifices he made for revolution and the inspiration he has given to so many. But I think his historical circumstances are the biggest cause of his fame. I am sure we've left many, many of our Ches forgotten in unmarked graves in Spain, Chile, Yugoslavia, Ukraine, South Africa, and countless other places.

[pilch]

Like him or not, he's one of the most reconized people of the century
his image is known through out the world by every one not just communists,
the legacy that followed him was more powerfull than he him-self,
i find it ironic the fact that the CIA killed him because he was seen as a threat to capitlist america, yet in death he became a bigger threat to them.

[Black Sheep]

he had the worst tactics (guerillaism)
Is there a better way to fight in the wilderness when greatly outnumbered and outgunned?

[Big Boss]

I like him and admire his revolutionary convictions. I mean, the guys fought to make the world a better place. Che had his virtues and vices but that is human nature. I don't idolize the man, but I do admire him as a bother of the cause and his total commitment to his ideals.

[Pogue]

I don't see how any revolutionary leftist couldn't like him.

He gave everything for his socialist beliefs, he was the ultimate human being and the ultimate socialist.

And if you read notes by people who knew him, he was actually incredibly criticle of Stalin, after having gone through a pro-Stalin phase.

He was a hero, a true revolutionary, an inspiration.

[cleef]

the guy himself i admire...
what i dont like is how his image has been exploited, i meet people all the time donning che tees and they dont even know who the man on their shirt is :confused:

[Comandante]

How can you not admire a man who left a life of money to fight for socialism in jungles?

As the poster above, I hate seeing people that wear his T-shirts and don't even know who he was.

Couple of days ago I talked to my friend and he said that he would wear a che t-shirt, then I replied "but you hate communism" and he replied "but the t-shirt is so cool"

I kicked him in the head :D

[Labor Shall Rule]

I see him as an adventurist anti-imperialist hero, but he left no theoretical or historical stain for Marxism.

Hence, he's not too useful anymore. In fact, he's an excellent meme for conservatives.

[Comrada J]

I'm still kind of bothered over the whole 'becoming an icon of consumism' thing. Printed T-shirts are awful to look at, and usually aren't worth the money.


Is there a better way to fight in the wilderness when greatly outnumbered and outgunned?

You can always give out pamphlets, stage a peaceful protest, pray to god or vote for Obama. No need to resort to violence! :scared: :laugh:

On a more serious note I think it's best not to spend too much time in the past, you should note of the accomplishments and blunders of these figures then move on.

[Le Libérer]

I see him as an adventurist anti-imperialist hero, but he left no theoretical or historical stain for Marxism.

Hence, he's not too useful anymore. In fact, he's an excellent meme for conservatives.I have to agree with LSR. Che is the poster child for revolution, but no where did he bring anything theoretical to the table. I do think his "look" is still in use today though. He and the Cuban rebels, grew out their hair and beards. The hippies adopted that look to their movement. And its still a symbol of the rebel. Of course thats not a lasting factor, but one for that age.

I doubt the people of Cuba will forget him anytime soon. He is considered a hero, and is so loved by them.

The one thing I did learn and take from him, is revolution wont exist without fighting for it. I just dont believe peaceful revolution is possible.

[Black Dagger]

As a human being - hawt, as a guerilla - admirable, politically? Eh.

[politics student]

the guy himself i admire...
what i dont like is how his image has been exploited, i meet people all the time donning che tees and they dont even know who the man on their shirt is :confused:

I normally use it to start a convo up with them.

Ifanything I can get them at least interested in marxism and who the guy on their T shirt is.

[PostAnarchy]

I agree the Che is more known now as a headshot for capitalist tshirts and other merchandise for pseudo radicals and rebellious teens. His politics were very heavily influenced by Leninism which resulted in a disaster for the working class.

http://libcom.org/history/guevara-ernesto-che-1928-1967 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://libcom.org/history/guevara-ernesto-che-1928-1967)

[lombas]

So-so. As an revolutionary: super, but the commercialization gets me down. Nothing personal.

[BIG BROTHER]

I don't agree with Che's theories but his passion and commitment to the struggle against capitalism can't be compared with anyone else.

[Pogue]

He was the most complete human being ever, and a true inspiration, the very model of what a human should be.

[Zurdito]

I think he was a progressive who stood for the expropriation of the bourgeosie, for the completion of anti-colonial revolutions, for a state run economy and massive redistribution of wealth, and who combined this with advocating mass armed movements.

I would have to be ultra-sectarian to reject all of this due to important strategic defects.

I think the difference with a Stalinist is that he spent very little time working as a bureaucrat, and left this to go and fight for revolution in other countries, which bears the mark of a true internationalist principle, even if the strategy was "socialism in one country".

I don't think Che is comparable to a Stalinist bureaucrat like Castro, therefore.

[Leo]

I have no sympathy at all for this poster child of the Stalinist counter-revolution.

Lots of others died young for the false cause of Stalinist third world nationalism, most of them died in much more horrible circumstances. The only reason this person became famous was that he had the right looks and died in the right time. I don't think he deserves any more admiration or respect that any ordinary soldier who died for any ordinary army.

[PoWR]

Few people, whether admirers or enemies, really understand Che's ideas or contributions. You can't get a grasp of what he was about and what he was trying to do by looking at his picture or reading Guerrilla Warfare in isolation.

I recommend reading "Che Guevara and the Coming World Revolution" by Rico Dean, which is available to read on the PoWR website, and for sale on Workers Press and Amazon.com

[Karzak]

Were Che Guevara alive today and online its doubtful whether his postings would be permitted at this site.

[Rangi]

At least he got out there and did something. Which is more than a lot of 'revolutionaries' in here have done. I use the word revolutionary in the loosest possible sense as I don't consider posting comments on a leftist website the most dangerous of occupations.

The man gave his life in the fight against world capitalism. Afford him the respect he deserves. When you and thirty of your mates overthrow a capitalist dictator and then stand up to the most powerful capitalist nations in the world then maybe I might give a shit. Until then you keep on thinking you are going to change the world via posting on websites.

[Kassad]

At least he got out there and did something. Which is more than a lot of 'revolutionaries' in here have done. I use the word revolutionary in the loosest possible sense as I don't consider posting comments on a leftist website the most dangerous of occupations.

The man gave his life in the fight against world capitalism. Afford him the respect he deserves. When you and thirty of your mates overthrow a capitalist dictator and then stand up to the most powerful capitalist nations in the world then maybe I might give a shit. Until then you keep on thinking you are going to change the world via posting on websites.

A significant amount of the people here are politically active, if not most of us. This site isn't here to incite a revolution. It's here to educate people, whether it be those who do not understand socialism or those looking for further development, in the different aspects of revolution and socialism. You're acting incredibly narrow-minded. I respect Che Guevara and am a supporter of the Cuban Revolution, but think of it this way. Joseph Stalin fought against capitalism. Does that mean we have to respect him? No. He was behind many genocidal atrocities in the Soviet Union. Just because someone fights capitalism does not make them a revolutionary or a hero by any means.

[alhop10]

At least he got out there and did something. Which is more than a lot of 'revolutionaries' in here have done. I use the word revolutionary in the loosest possible sense as I don't consider posting comments on a leftist website the most dangerous of occupations.

The man gave his life in the fight against world capitalism. Afford him the respect he deserves. When you and thirty of your mates overthrow a capitalist dictator and then stand up to the most powerful capitalist nations in the world then maybe I might give a shit. Until then you keep on thinking you are going to change the world via posting on websites

I think that many people on this site are politically active unless they are lying about being at demos and strikes etc. which would seem pretty pointless. I find that discussion on this site can clarify my arguments and viewpoints in a way that reading theory cannot. I consantly find myself using ideas and arguments I have come across here with both comrades and people who oppose my views at meetings, demos and strikes etc.

[destroyimperialism]

With all due respect to the posters who have commented here, I find most of this thread disconcerting, ill-informed, and unfortunate. :sleep:


To me Che Guevara is one of the most heroic figures in world history who is a stoic example of what all those who speak of “revolution” should espouse to be.


This was a man who left a bourgeoisie comfortable life of the upper class, a potential well compensated career as a medical doctor, and a high regarded governmental position --- each time to slog through the jungle and fight guerrilla wars against impenetrable odds = for a better and more equitable society.


I endorse Jean Paul Sartre’s declaration that Guevara was the “most complete man of our time” … and find his life not only fascinating but deeply inspiring.


Guevara despite his crippling and acute asthma which would debilitate him almost daily to inches from death, directed “suicide squads” in the battle against the U.S. armed and backed Dictator Batista where with less than 300 men; he literally took on 10,000 Batista soldiers armed with tanks, jets, and U.S. weaponry, and came out victorious at and leading up to the victory at Santa Clara.


In Bolivia, Guevara spent almost over 1 hellish year in the festering jungle battling a disease which left his hands as mounds of swollen flesh, the fact that his allergic reaction to mosquito bites would leave walnut sized welts all over his body, kept fighting even when he was without food for nearly a month, went shoeless, without blankets, and STILL with less than 30 men took on a force of 1,800 Bolivian U.S. armed rangers with an air force, green beret advisors, and CIA technology. Despite these odds Guevara’s men killed 30 Bolivian troops before they even lost their first Guerrilla. Moreover, displaying his character, despite all these hardships, when Guevara could have simply taken the food of Bolivian campesinos to eat, he insisted on paying for everything.


Throughout his life Che tended to thousands of sick campesinos, helped construct dozens of schools throughout Cuba, worked in a Leper colony to helped those afflicted, and even when he was literally tied up in a small mud school house awaiting his own execution ! , still complained to the local teacher that in a nation where the leaders drove Mercedes … it was a travesty that the peasants were taught in a dilapidated place like he was in.


Although I don’t believe in religious dogma (neither did Che), and view myself as an atheist, I do find it telling that the person Che was so often compared to by those who knew him was Jesus Christ. Because of his implacable character, unbending morals, and innate desire to fight in favor of the afflicted, I think that those who knew him were left with no other figure to compare him to.


Was he perfect? Of course not. No human is. But in mind he was awfully close considering the circumstances and cards he was dealt. I also find it telling that the best “canard” his detractors and those propagandists of monopoly capitalism can come up with - was his short stint at La Cabana prison. Where Che simply reviewed the cases and convictions of war criminals convicted by revolutionary tribunal (modeled after Nuremburg). The same secret police and Batista backed torturers that killed 20,000 people and tortured tens of thousands more. At a time when Fidel and Che would release military captives in the Sierra after tending to them medically, Batista would gouge the eyes out of captives until they gave away rebel positions. The fact that Che saw to it that justice was delivered cold to the Cuban people to me only makes him more heroic. He knew that a “pedagogy of the wall” was the only thing that could cleanse a society from the thousands of goons who raped and terrorized it with impunity.


Yet I still see those on the left apply some sort of “perfectionist” fallacy to Guevara or more foolishly overlook his heroism on the basis of the fact that Capitalists profit from his defiant image. This is exactly what the capitalist vampires want. They will take every hero of the toilers and the left and revise them into “terrorists” … they will take every noble guerrilla who fought against imperialism and craft them into “mad men” so as to make you think that heroism and socialism/Marxism etc are antithetical concepts. If this doesn’t work … the Capitalist/Imperialists will try to make our heroes into caricatures, or “de-fanged” banal symbols of popular culture – so as to “devalue” their serious and conceptual analysis. Thus Che dawns a bikini, Mao dawns a purse, and Lenin dawns your Zippo lighter.


We on the 'revolutionary left' MUST not fall for that sort of non-sense. And I would implore those who give credence to the idea of a world revolution … to give much deserved recognition to one of the few men in the past century who literally threw aside “the arm chair” and went out to (imperfectly) create it.


If the world had 100 Che’s … or hell even 10 … we would be in much better shape.


Hasta la Victoria Siempre !


Could not have said it any better myself..I find it hard to believe that comrades on this board are actually buying into the capitalist/imperialist propaganda..Che will always be a hero in my eyes as he renounced a life of comfort to fight for the working man..and he was successful!(at least in cuba) he really does fit the description of the figment known as jesus christ, i wish the catholics would c that..HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE COMANDANTE! And in defence of his "brutality" as a guerilla leader..what do you expect? It's guerilla WARFARE not guerilla tea time..and in my eyes the executions he carried out were justified, as the people he killed served a monster who responsible for the death of thousands of peasants. I believe in his idea of socialism.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Finally! Other people who don't like Che! As far as I know, he was Anti-Revisionist.

[Lamanov]

Same here: don't like him. I basically agree with what Leo said.

Sure, I "liked" him as a "symbol" when I was 19, but the posters and illusions had to come down eventually.

[Black Dagger]

At least he got out there and did something. Which is more than a lot of 'revolutionaries' in here have done. I use the word revolutionary in the loosest possible sense as I don't consider posting comments on a leftist website the most dangerous of occupations.

The man gave his life in the fight against world capitalism. Afford him the respect he deserves. When you and thirty of your mates overthrow a capitalist dictator and then stand up to the most powerful capitalist nations in the world then maybe I might give a shit. Until then you keep on thinking you are going to change the world via posting on websites.

So why are you here then? Simply to troll 'the commies'? Hmm?

[ibn Bruce]

I feel sorry for the dog he strangled. That was cruel, he could've just let it go. Then again, having a role in destroying America's hold on Cuba has to somewhat make up for that right?

[Rosa Provokateur]

Che was hot, he could overthrow me anytime ;)

[Plagueround]

Che was hot, he could overthrow me anytime ;)

I've heard rumors that statements like this is the reason they made Ginsberg leave Cuba. :lol:

[Rosa Provokateur]

I've heard rumors that statements like this is the reason they made Ginsberg leave Cuba. :lol:
All I can say hun is that he had excellent taste in men:D

[JohannGE]

How can I have anything but respect and gratitude for someone who was willing to give so much more than I am?

The simplistic "like", "Don't like", "So - So" can in no way do justice to the question "What do you think about Che Guevara?". We are not considering a new colour for the wall!

From some of the responses I think some people might be rather too attached to being seen to be "anti-cool". If nothing else his self-sacrifice has left us the most powerful and universally known icon and the best recruiting tool we have. Unless we can see through the commercialisation bullshit and hold onto what is rightfully ours, they will eventually take him away from us altogether.

I don't believe in heroes or saints, but I recognise and respect someone who gave so much for others. Even if I disagreed with every single aspect of his tactics, politics or personality (which I certainly don't).

[Tom-Guevarist]

I feel sorry for the dog he strangled. That was cruel, he could've just let it go. Then again, having a role in destroying America's hold on Cuba has to somewhat make up for that right?


Totally true, butt it was an other man who did it and wouldn't we be hating this dog if it hat been crying and che was murdered by the cry of a little doggy ?

[Boy Named Crow]

I think he was an example of a man who put his ideas before himself and wasn't afraid to sacrifice for those ideas. I admire that about him.

Whilst he, like everyone, had character flaws perhaps such as being stubborn and quick tempered; he was a passionate and dedicated man. He was well educated and generous with knowledge and skills - always willing to teach those who showed aptitude to learn.

I think there's a lot to like about Che. You don't have to like the symbol to admire the qualities of the man.

[Chambered Word]

The fact that Che has been commodified has been discussed previously. I think those that argue against Che using this as a reason are somewhat utopian in their views; our clothing is created by capitalists. Working class people constantly buy clothes manufactured by capitalists. So now the question becomes what kind of clothes should we wear? I would much rather see someone wear a shirt of a revolutionary (of any of the various left ideologies) than a Nike Swoosh or some some piece of (free) corporate advertising.

After all, the capitalists produce something else too as Marx pointed out:

In my opinion we shouldn't buy them if they're overpriced, or we should simply make our own.

If you started up your own business which the workers own and started making leftists shirts, you'd be a real socialist.

[Comrade Che]

Che remains my idol.

[pastradamus]

I might be the only one here, but I really don't like Che Guevara.

He used to be my idol when I was 14 but that's about it.

I mean he had good intentions and all , but he was a Stalino-Maoist, he had the worst tactics (guerillaism) and he wasn't even a good tactician .Although he has my respect for being an internationalist I don't really like Che Guevara.

Thats a big problem. You cant just categorise che into the sections of Leftism. He was not a Maoist, Stalinist or Trotskiest. He was his own man with his own set of ideals. He accepted neither Mao or Stalin (despised stalin) fully.

[PRC-UTE]

I have to agree with LSR. Che is the poster child for revolution, but no where did he bring anything theoretical to the table.

He did, though. Exposed the awful conformity of the official communist movement and offered useful criticisms of the Soviet economic model, similar to Ernest Mandel's. Che was intelligent enough not to be stuck in one ism and worked tirelessly to bridge the divisions in the communist movement.

I think he's simply misunderstood and under-appreciated.

[pastradamus]

I think he's simply misunderstood and under-appreciated.

More-so than any other revolutionary I believe. His Guerilla tactics alone are amazing from what i've read in his guerilla warfare book. Also I love his independent mind on almost every issue he dealt with. I will say to LP to not let the Capitalist with the Che T-shirt put you off guevara real philosophy. Che endorsed a rather Machivellian outlook with regards to warfare up to and including terrorism but only against Capitalism and not the Working class. His very position as a doctor is testament to his humanity in other area's. He is a kaliedoscope of varying left-wing ideals and one of the 21st century's most interesting characters.

[Andropov]

Che endorsed a rather Machivellian outlook with regards to warfare up to and including terrorism but only against Capitalism and not the Working class.
What kind of terrorism did Che advocate out of interest?

[Il Medico]

Che was a good revolutionary and someone we should all respect, even if we disagree with him on tactics or politics. He fought and died for what he believed in, that alone is a reason to appreciate him.

[Nosotros]

I might be the only one here, but I really don't like Che Guevara.

He used to be my idol when I was 14 but that's about it.

I mean he had good intentions and all , but he was a Stalino-Maoist, he had the worst tactics (guerillaism) and he wasn't even a good tactician .Although he has my respect for being an internationalist I don't really like Che Guevara.You forgot to mention the fact that he wanted to nuke the USA and start many Vietnam wars. Also that he personally oversaw the execution of many low level people in Batistas army. Most imporatant to me is his and Fidel's role in the shooting, imprisonment and exiling of Anarcho-Syndicalists, smashing the last remaining Anarchist movement in the region. So no, I detest Che Guevarra and his Fascist sympathies of the Peronists in Argentina.

[pastradamus]

What kind of terrorism did Che advocate out of interest?

In his Book "guerrilla warfare" he has a section which openly endorses a proletariat-terrorism. From this he describes the use of bombs wired to telephones (guevara being one of the first to do this) and develops on the discussion further by citing his experiences with terrorism. This included shot gun attacks on a Bus in which no body was harmed but government troops aboard were taken prisoner after surrendering - surrendering from the panic and therefore terror - which he openly stated as such.

This brings into play a darker more Machiavellian side to Guevara, but a side in which he got the upper hand and endorsed the idea fully in small doses. Guevara did not however carry out terrorism in the modern conventional sense of the word. That is to say he did not advocate bombing civilians or flying planes into towers.

However if anyone here is interested in reading a REAL Guerrilla warfare publication than I strongly suggest "guerrilla Warfare" by Mao tse-tung. This Publication is Guerrilla Genius. Mao was Ches inspiration and Guevara largely adopted his tactics.

[pastradamus]

I have no sympathy at all for this poster child of the Stalinist counter-revolution.

Lots of others died young for the false cause of Stalinist third world nationalism, most of them died in much more horrible circumstances. The only reason this person became famous was that he had the right looks and died in the right time. I don't think he deserves any more admiration or respect that any ordinary soldier who died for any ordinary army.

Firstly, Guevara was not a Stalinist. He was a Marxist-Leninist broadly Influenced by Mao and also, at many stages Spoke out against Stalin and the Stalinist Communist Party of Cuba. As for the Use of the Word "nationalism" I dont believe Che Supported Nationalism in its true form. Guevara supported an Anti-Imperialist Campaign in Third World Countries in a leftist agenda. Not a Nationalist Right one.

Second, The Attention Guevara attracted from the Media and from that Historical Painting of him is In no way his own Fault, IMO. Guevara open wrote in his many publications about his disdain for "personality Cult". If he liked a cult of Personality than why alter his appearence? Why not just hang around in Cuba and live off his fame?

This is a real thinker of our time. A genuine leftist Revolutionary, Who should be studied by every leftist.

Now, I respect what your saying too mind. I agree that far too many comrades died without a mention and without a good word.

[RedRise]

Che is my idol at the moment!
The phase will probably pass, but at the moment i think he's hero.:)
Castro on the other hand was good when he started out then got into power and stuffed up big time.
I love Che. Castro is giving communism a bad name!:mad:

[Radical]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Che_on_Mule_in_Las_Villas_Nov_1958.jpg



With all due respect to the posters who have commented here, I find most of this thread disconcerting, ill-informed, and unfortunate. :sleep:


To me Che Guevara is one of the most heroic figures in world history who is a stoic example of what all those who speak of “revolution” should espouse to be.


This was a man who left a bourgeoisie comfortable life of the upper class, a potential well compensated career as a medical doctor, and a high regarded governmental position --- each time to slog through the jungle and fight guerrilla wars against impenetrable odds = for a better and more equitable society.


I endorse Jean Paul Sartre’s declaration that Guevara was the “most complete man of our time” … and find his life not only fascinating but deeply inspiring.


Guevara despite his crippling and acute asthma which would debilitate him almost daily to inches from death, directed “suicide squads” in the battle against the U.S. armed and backed Dictator Batista where with less than 300 men; he literally took on 10,000 Batista soldiers armed with tanks, jets, and U.S. weaponry, and came out victorious at and leading up to the victory at Santa Clara.


In Bolivia, Guevara spent almost over 1 hellish year in the festering jungle battling a disease which left his hands as mounds of swollen flesh, the fact that his allergic reaction to mosquito bites would leave walnut sized welts all over his body, kept fighting even when he was without food for nearly a month, went shoeless, without blankets, and STILL with less than 30 men took on a force of 1,800 Bolivian U.S. armed rangers with an air force, green beret advisors, and CIA technology. Despite these odds Guevara’s men killed 30 Bolivian troops before they even lost their first Guerrilla. Moreover, displaying his character, despite all these hardships, when Guevara could have simply taken the food of Bolivian campesinos to eat, he insisted on paying for everything.


Throughout his life Che tended to thousands of sick campesinos, helped construct dozens of schools throughout Cuba, worked in a Leper colony to helped those afflicted, and even when he was literally tied up in a small mud school house awaiting his own execution ! , still complained to the local teacher that in a nation where the leaders drove Mercedes … it was a travesty that the peasants were taught in a dilapidated place like he was in.


Although I don’t believe in religious dogma (neither did Che), and view myself as an atheist, I do find it telling that the person Che was so often compared to by those who knew him was Jesus Christ. Because of his implacable character, unbending morals, and innate desire to fight in favor of the afflicted, I think that those who knew him were left with no other figure to compare him to.


Was he perfect? Of course not. No human is. But in mind he was awfully close considering the circumstances and cards he was dealt. I also find it telling that the best “canard” his detractors and those propagandists of monopoly capitalism can come up with - was his short stint at La Cabana prison. Where Che simply reviewed the cases and convictions of war criminals convicted by revolutionary tribunal (modeled after Nuremburg). The same secret police and Batista backed torturers that killed 20,000 people and tortured tens of thousands more. At a time when Fidel and Che would release military captives in the Sierra after tending to them medically, Batista would gouge the eyes out of captives until they gave away rebel positions. The fact that Che saw to it that justice was delivered cold to the Cuban people to me only makes him more heroic. He knew that a “pedagogy of the wall” was the only thing that could cleanse a society from the thousands of goons who raped and terrorized it with impunity.


Yet I still see those on the left apply some sort of “perfectionist” fallacy to Guevara or more foolishly overlook his heroism on the basis of the fact that Capitalists profit from his defiant image. This is exactly what the capitalist vampires want. They will take every hero of the toilers and the left and revise them into “terrorists” … they will take every noble guerrilla who fought against imperialism and craft them into “mad men” so as to make you think that heroism and socialism/Marxism etc are antithetical concepts. If this doesn’t work … the Capitalist/Imperialists will try to make our heroes into caricatures, or “de-fanged” banal symbols of popular culture – so as to “devalue” their serious and conceptual analysis. Thus Che dawns a bikini, Mao dawns a purse, and Lenin dawns your Zippo lighter.


We on the 'revolutionary left' MUST not fall for that sort of non-sense. And I would implore those who give credence to the idea of a world revolution … to give much deserved recognition to one of the few men in the past century who literally threw aside “the arm chair” and went out to (imperfectly) create it.


If the world had 100 Che’s … or hell even 10 … we would be in much better shape.


Hasta la Victoria Siempre !


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/CheinBolivia1.jpg

#1 Post

[Agrippa]

An undeniable tactical genius and literary visionary, but a parasitic, capitalist gangster who obstructed proletarian class-rule to prop up his own technocratic dictatorship which paved the way for Castroism.

Leninists are showing no ideological inconsistancy in admiring the man. However anarchists who admire Che and not Lenin and Mao are easily swayed by style over substance, given the sole root of Che's popularity among even apolitical gringos is his "romantic" image.

The next Che will be shot along with all the other oppertunist bureaucrats.

[Gravedigger01]

I think the man is a hero.Before Che Guevara people thought Communism was rigin and authotarian.Guevara managed to make Communism seem sexier and this appealed to many students in particular

[Kamerat]

This is fucking ridiculous. The reason you people dont like Che, is because its sooooo mainstream. Everyone knows about him and even librals like him, so its not cool anymore. Now its all about Buenaventura and Nestor. Even tho they did not accomplish shit.

Che was The Revolutionary.

[Искра]

Just a popular drunkard. Like football team captain with red star.

[VolosIkram]

Damn people...
After reading your posts, I really have no idea how u imagine revolution...
Che is not my idol or a hero... idols and heroes are for pussies. But as mentioned above, the revolutionary spirit he had is really something we all leftists should look up to.

[kharacter]

An undeniable tactical genius and literary visionary, but a parasitic, capitalist gangster who obstructed proletarian class-rule to prop up his own technocratic dictatorship which paved the way for Castroism.

Leninists are showing no ideological inconsistancy in admiring the man. However anarchists who admire Che and not Lenin and Mao are easily swayed by style over substance, given the sole root of Che's popularity among even apolitical gringos is his "romantic" image.

The next Che will be shot along with all the other oppertunist bureaucrats.
this is truth. cool Wolves in the Throne Room avatar btw


This is fucking ridiculous. The reason you people dont like Che, is because its sooooo mainstream. Everyone knows about him and even librals like him, so its not cool anymore. Now its all about Buenaventura and Nestor. Even tho they did not accomplish shit.

Che was The Revolutionary.
no disrespect Kamerat,
but Nestor Makhno/Buenaventura Durruti >> Che

and for anarchists, it's always been about Nestor and Buenaventura


Damn people...
After reading your posts, I really have no idea how u imagine revolution...
Che is not my idol or a hero... idols and heroes are for pussies. But as mentioned above, the revolutionary spirit he had is really something we all leftists should look up to.
partially true, but don't try saying that to Subcomandante Marcos

[VolosIkram]

What do u mean?

[Najeeb]

persons likw CHE doesnt need compliments from the people. CHE has personality of kind that teach the mouth to admire of opposer.

[RadioRaheem84]

This is fucking ridiculous. The reason you people dont like Che, is because its sooooo mainstream. Everyone knows about him and even librals like him, so its not cool anymore. Now its all about Buenaventura and Nestor. Even tho they did not accomplish shit.

Che was The Revolutionary.


Say what? Durruti accomplished a lot for fight against a enemy that was backed by Germany and Italy. C'mon now!

Che was a symbol of liberation for oppressed peoples everywhere and a instilled fear for the capitalists!

He was a bit authoritarian in his methods. In my opinion a total megalomaniac but his revolutionary zeal was and should be praised by all. Heck, even anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard recognized the zeal of Che and that he actually did what he said he was going to do; smash imperialism. Whether he suceeded or not isn't the point.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

One of the aspects I admire most about Che is his ability to put aside personal feelings, desires, wishes,... for tha greater good of the Revolution, something that proved its use on several occassions during the guerilla warfara, in which "ruthless" and strong actions were absolutely necessary. Che knew what was necessary for the Revolution and for Socialism, and put all of his life, all of his being in the fulfillment of this Goal.
He is an example for all mankind.

That's why the Belgian Communist youth organisation Comac uses the phrase Chénge the world as slogan. I can't put it better than that

[revolution inaction]

This is fucking ridiculous. The reason you people dont like Che, is because its sooooo mainstream. Everyone knows about him and even librals like him, so its not cool anymore. Now its all about Buenaventura and Nestor. Even tho they did not accomplish shit.


and what did che accomplish? getting his face on millions of tee shirts worn by people who haven a clue who he is?

[red cat]

and what did che accomplish? getting his face on millions of tee shirts worn by people who haven a clue who he is?

How exactly is Che responsible for what capitalists do now ?

[red cat]

Che's theory had many faults. But he remained true to the cause of the oppressed masses throughout his life.

It is our duty to engage in revolutionary practice and to rectify and further develop his theories. Che gave us what he could.

He was a hardcore communist revolutionary.

[Kuppo Shakur]

One of the aspects I admire most about Che is his ability to put aside personal feelings, desires, wishes,... for tha greater good of the Revolution, something that proved its use on several occassions during the guerilla warfara, in which "ruthless" and strong actions were absolutely necessary. Che knew what was necessary for the Revolution and for Socialism, and put all of his life, all of his being in the fulfillment of this Goal.
He is an example for all mankind.

That's why the Belgian Communist youth organisation Comac uses the phrase Chénge the world as slogan. I can't put it better than that

Although I disagree with plenty of his beliefs, I will always find his devotion quite admirable.

[sarmchain]

che is no better no worse then all the other people who have died fighting for a good cause just because he was a higher rank he should not get more credit then them

[ChrisK]

Che was a man of many faults. I like him for the same reasons I like the Black Panthers. He fought for what he believed in and tried to create a world revolution. I dislike him for his misguided tactics and ideas.

[red cat]

Che was a man of many faults.

Who wasn't ? :)

[Tablo]

I like Che. He had shitty politics, but he legitimately cared about the people and devoted his life to realizing their freedom and the security of their well being. He is not by any means perfect, but if we had more revolutionaries like him then I think the current condition of the Revolutionary Left would be much better.

[ChrisK]

Who wasn't ? :)

Me. But your use of the past tense was clearly used to leave me out of the pool so it will be a while before that claim works:cool:.

[Kléber]

"A few years later, shortly before leaving Cuba in 1965, [Guevara] managed to free the Cuban Trotskyist leader Roberto Acosta Hechevarria from prison, taking leave of him with a fraternal greeting: 'Acosta, you can’t kill ideas with blows.'

"The clearest example is his reply, in a 1964 report to his comrades in the Ministry of Industry, to the charge of 'Trotskyism' leveled against him by some Soviets:

"'In this regard, I think that either we have the capacity to destroy contrary opinions with arguments or we should let them be expressed….It is not possible to destroy opinions by force, because that blocks any free development of intelligence. There is much that is worthwhile in Trotsky’s thinking, although it seems to me that his fundamental conceptions were wrong and his later action mistaken.'"

[bailey_187]

"A few years later, shortly before leaving Cuba in 1965, [Guevara] managed to free the Cuban Trotskyist leader Roberto Acosta Hechevarria from prison, taking leave of him with a fraternal greeting: 'Acosta, you can’t kill ideas with blows.'

"The clearest example is his reply, in a 1964 report to his comrades in the Ministry of Industry, to the charge of 'Trotskyism' leveled against him by some Soviets:

"'In this regard, I think that either we have the capacity to destroy contrary opinions with arguments or we should let them be expressed….It is not possible to destroy opinions by force, because that blocks any free development of intelligence. There is much that is worthwhile in Trotsky’s thinking, although it seems to me that his fundamental conceptions were wrong and his later action mistaken.'"

Do you ever make posts that do not mention Trotsky or Troskyism?

[Kléber]

i was more hoping to enlighten the (banned) op.

i'm sorry, however, since my effect was to ruin a comrade's day with the revelation that el che could think beyond trot-bashing

[RedStarOverChina]

Sartre said it the best. He was a "complete" man.

Moreover, a person who dies for the liberation of the oppressed always deserve my deepest respect.

[IrishWorker]

Some people on this thread are so far up there own holes that it would make yee sick.
Che was a hero and a martyr who gave his life for the struggle.
The End…

[Lord Marshall Draq]

Che is probably THE revolutionary. I respect your opinion, but I find it hard to fathom that anyone on this site might not like him, or at least respect him.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I like Che.

[RATM-Eubie]

I like Che

[Jacobinist]

Coming from a self-proclaimed anarchist this is going to sound werid, but I actually like Ernesto. Why? Because to many, he is still a symbol of revolution, of people's class conflict, and he was an internationalist who wanted to see the America's unite, he fought for people in countries foreign to his own, he truly believed in Latin America's greatness and potential power should it unite, he gave his life and told the CIA to eat a dick up, etc.

Very romantic, but im sure his shit stank badly.

Then again, hmmmm:blushing:

[Avalona22]

I love Che, he was brave and he put his neck on the line, few men are willing to do that. True leaders put themselves at risk for the furthering of truth... which is commendable. ;)

[Tim Cornelis]

Before this thread gets closed, I'd like to point out: it's crazy how many banned people there are. On this page alone 7 (out of 13).

[Althusser]

Why would any communist dislike Che? He spent his adult life fighting in the jungles and even died trying to bring socialism to Latin America. Sure focoism is not a revolutionary theory that should be repeated, but that has no bearing on some of the ridiculous reasons why people don't like him.:confused:

[#FF0000]

Before this thread gets closed, I'd like to point out: it's crazy how many banned people there are. On this page alone 7 (out of 13).

I think most of these folks were banned for personal disagreements too, iirc.

[Tim Cornelis]

Why would any communist dislike Che? He spent his adult life fighting in the jungles and even died trying to bring socialism to Latin America. Sure focoism is not a revolutionary theory that should be repeated, but that has no bearing on some of the ridiculous reasons why people don't like him.:confused:

I dislike Che because he aided in establishing an oppressive bourgeois dictatorship and sought to do the same throughout Latin America.

[Diirez]

I think Che did a lot for communism and it was remarkable of him to give up his doctor life and go to revolution.

Unfortunately I dislike many things about him. One of that is his Stalinist-Maoist views. The other was that his revolution consisted of the small guerrilla fighters and not of the workers and then the government that he helped create just did the same thing that Batista's regime did.

[tachosomoza]

How can I like someone I didn't know or have a conversation with?

[PhoenixAsh]

This thread would be more aptly named: "the revolution got talent"

Che was responsible for the prosecution of Anarchists and advocated authoritarian socialism which made use of state oppression.

However...he was a revolutionary and dedicated to the international struggle. His actions directly and indirectly improved the lives of thousands of workers compared to the previous governments. And he left a legacy. One that inspires a lot of revolutionaries in South and Middle America...if not over the entire world and entices scores of people to inform themselves into revolutionary politics.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

This thread would be more aptly named: "the revolution got talent"

Che was responsible for the prosecution of Anarchists and advocated authoritarian socialism which made use of state oppression.

However...he was a revolutionary and dedicated to the international struggle. His actions directly and indirectly improved the lives of thousands of workers compared to the previous governments. And he left a legacy. One that inspires a lot of revolutionaries in South and Middle America...if not over the entire world and entices scores of people to inform themselves into revolutionary politics.

Yeah, this is my general opinion. Che does make a great revolutionary symbol, but in all honesty if I were to meet him personally I probably would have hated him. I will give him credit for helping to overthrow one of the most brutal dictators that Latin America had ever had to suffer. But the system he helped establish was only marginally better.

(Meet the new boss, same as the old boss).

Personally, I prefer Lenin, even though I disagree with many of his actions. But that's just me.

[mindsword]

There is a darkness, here on revleft.......................

[mindsword]

How can I like someone I didn't know or have a conversation with?
You make an educated decision based on his literature, doings, sayings, personality, history and views.

The same way you propably dont like Hitler very much.

"Hey he was propably awesome, i never met the dude"? You wouldnt say that would you?

Dont believe the hype only goes so far.

[mindsword]

This thread would be more aptly named: "the revolution got talent"

Che was responsible for the prosecution of Anarchists and advocated authoritarian socialism which made use of state oppression.

However...he was a revolutionary and dedicated to the international struggle. His actions directly and indirectly improved the lives of thousands of workers compared to the previous governments. And he left a legacy. One that inspires a lot of revolutionaries in South and Middle America...if not over the entire world and entices scores of people to inform themselves into revolutionary politics.

We have to remember that Cuba is an hours boat ride away from USA. (FLORIDA to be exact!)
One slip and your entire country is a huge third world KFC restaurant. You've got reason to be paranoid in Latin America.......

You people are hating on a dude who gave his life to fight US imperialism (all the way from start to finish - when they already had cuba he didnt move into a mansion on the cuban beach to chill as president, he went to frikkin CONGO to keep fighting! CONGO!!!! have you been to congo??? its not sweet!) and propably recruited half the members on this forum for the struggle and the entire latin american socialist/communist revolutionary movement (FARC, bolivia, venezuela, chile you name it)

[PhoenixAsh]

We are hating on a representative of a revolutionary nationalist faction which adopted Marxism out of convenience and which aligned itself with USSR imperialism. Che was somebody who was extremely willing to sacrifice the entire Cuban working class...and entire population, on the altar of atomic empowerment of Cuba.

[Lanfear]

I like him as it is because of him that I got into left wing politics.

[genjer]

Che was responsible for the prosecution of Anarchists
Is there any evidence that he was personally involved with that?

[Comrade Jacob]

I like Che, he's the type of guy I'd smoke a cigar with.

[Delusional Kid]

Honestly I don't know much about him... I will say this though, I can't stand all the idiots wearing t-shirts with his face on it. Worst part is that they were probably made in a sweatshop...
Yeah, way to show anti capitalist you are:rolleyes:

[La Guaneña]

Che is a revolutionary symbol for all Latin American youth, a symbol of those who disobey and challenge Yankees in their backyard. Guess that RL not liking him tells me something.

[Loony Le Fist]

I find Che's rhetoric to be rather inspiring. That said, his actions paint a different picture. His diary is also rather revealing. I can definitely see how the imperialistic brutality ate at his core making him feel hatred and anger, until it bubbled out of him in the form of brutal actions. Honestly, I can't say I would have turned out any different after seeing the things he saw. He was assassinated by the Bolivians, in a rather sad irony.

[Tim Cornelis]

Che is a revolutionary symbol for all Latin American youth, a symbol of those who disobey and challenge Yankees in their backyard. Guess that RL not liking him tells me something.

That we are not all petty romanticists?

[Ele'ill]

I don't really give a shit.

[La Guaneña]

That we are not all petty romanticists?

No, that there is a systemic and uncritical disliking to any sort of real achievement, duh.

[Tim Cornelis]

No, that there is a systemic and uncritical disliking to any sort of real achievement, duh.

Uncritical? I don't think you've been paying attention really.
Real achievement? Being outperformed by liberal capitalism?
No really, support for the Cuban regime and Che rely on romanticism, liking the idea of brigades building medical facilities, not on a Marxist analysis.

[PhoenixAsh]

I like how not swooning over Che's achievement of postmortem inspiration is suddenly systemic and uncritical. Did this achievement come with a merit badge?

[blake 3:17]

;2744392']Honestly I don't know much about him... I will say this though, I can't stand all the idiots wearing t-shirts with his face on it. Worst part is that they were probably made in a sweatshop...
Yeah, way to show anti capitalist you are:rolleyes:

I'm wearing a Che t-shirt right now.

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm wearing a Che t-shirt right now.

So am I, but only because I had no other sleep shirt http://balkanportal.info/vb/images/smilies/frog.png

[PhoenixAsh]

I have one too. A brown one...with a yellow Che. Because fuck him and jeeeej for commercialization and consumerist culture. :laugh: ;)

[PhoenixAsh]

So am I, but only because I had no other sleep shirt http://balkanportal.info/vb/images/smilies/frog.png

You do realize that we now have to add your name to the list of people-we -have-to-kick-in-the-shins-for-perpetuating-the-frog-thing after the revolution, right? Even though you are part of the we don't really like Che but we bought his T-shirt because we were drunk that one time and thought it was cool-club

[Hrafn]

My father bought me a Che-shirt, years ago, as some type of sarcastic statement about my at the time newfound radicalism. Quite striking.

[#FF0000]

My father bought me a Che-shirt, years ago, as some type of sarcastic statement about my at the time newfound radicalism. Quite striking.

Passive aggressive gifting is the best gifting

[Brutus]

Passive aggressive gifting is the best gifting

Ikr. My mum got me 3 books on the eastern bloc and Stalinism

[Sinister Intents]

Ikr. My mum got me 3 books on the eastern bloc and Stalinism

Books are always awesome :)

Also I detest the Stalinist Che Guevera. I used to like Che and I learned a few Che quotes that were nice, but yeah I don't like Che.

[motion denied]

Who else's got a Che t-shirt?

Also, how can you not like the man (I'm not reading the thread).

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I've got a t-shirt which is Chewbacca posed like Che with 'Viva La Rebellion' underneath. Che-bacca.

[Sea]

Che is a revolutionary symbol for all Latin American youth, a symbol of those who disobey and challenge Yankees in their backyard. Guess that RL not liking him tells me something. Westerners have a good reason for not liking Che:

https://www.google.com/#q=che+clothing

Guess how many of those are communists. Just guess. Can you feel the spectacle yet?

[erupt]

Personally, I think he'd of had a lot to say about his "comrades" both nationally inside Cuba, and internationally like the USSR, China, North Korea, etc. had he not been assassinated. His belief in international solidarity most likely led him to bite his tongue as long as he did concerning his qualms with the USSR, or the Chinese spies that were following him around, or his qualms with Yugoslavia, or his noticing of the diminishment of international solidarity and what he claimed was the growing of exploitation of the Southern Hemisphere by the Northern Hemisphere in general.

I think his resigning from his positions of power in Cuba, his renouncing of his Cuban citizenship, his slow public separation from Castro and the withering away of his and Castro's friendship, and his restarting his guerilla excursions show some of the reasons of a disillusionment in the bureaucratism of Cuba, as well as other state-capitalist "socialist" countries and his irritation at the subordination of other "socialist" countries to the Soviet Union. He starting looking for alternatives to the state-capitalist method late in his life; a lot changed in the way Guevara viewed the (socialist) world in the last two years of his life.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Guevara, the economist and theoretician of guerrilla warfare, is actually interesting, even though obviously I don't agree with either the guerrilla road or socialism in one country.

Che, the great revolutionary hero who fights imperialists and doesn't afraid of anything, has been turned into a retch-inducing sight by commodification.

Ernesto the Cuban minister was prominent in Cuban politics when seriously dodgy things were happening. Ultimately I don't see that much of a difference between Guevara and, say, Honecker or Novotny.

[erupt]

Guevara, the economist and theoretician of guerrilla warfare, is actually interesting, even though obviously I don't agree with either the guerrilla road or socialism in one country.

Che, the great revolutionary hero who fights imperialists and doesn't afraid of anything, has been turned into a retch-inducing sight by commodification.

Ernesto the Cuban minister was prominent in Cuban politics when seriously dodgy things were happening. Ultimately I don't see that much of a difference between Guevara and, say, Honecker or Novotny.

I agree until the very last sentence; as far as that statement goes, rather than holding on to his position of power in Cuba, Guevara left and resumed his guerilla activities (whether one views them as futile or not).

I never learned of any European state-socialist leaders who just resigned and picked up a machine-gun again, so I can't compare him to the likes of Hoenecker, Novotny, etc. Honestly, even though the economics are much different, Guevara and Tito had more in common in the fact that they both physically fought (at different times, obviously) in what they thought (or claimed) was the "international proletarian revolution", and they both (again, regardless of personal opinion) had enough fortitude to give opposition to the USSR, even if their reasons were different.

Please, no one take this like I'm taking any sides, whether it's Guevara, Tito, Novotny, Stalin, or Krushchev...I'm simply trying to be as fair and analytical as possible.

[huey]

Che was the real deal, absolutely, and he paid for it dearly in the end, with his life. His boy Fidel was basically a sell out....and that's why Che 'disowned' him.

[4thInter]

Actualy, Che heavily criticised Stalin. Read the Fidel Castro autobiography ("My Life: Fidel Castro), he makes it all clear.

Really? I wasn't aware of this, thanks comrade.

[Igor]

Ikr. My mum got me 3 books on the eastern bloc and Stalinismi got "mao: the unknown story" as a christmas gift few years back

hoo boy is that a bad book or what

[4thInter]

Che was an anti-working class Stalinist.



It is.

Devrim
Wheres your proof to your claim?

[Devrim]

Wheres your proof to your claim?

Which claim, the one that Guevara was an anti-working class Stalinist, or the one that Cuba is capitalist?

Devrim

[ProletariatPower]

To me Che Guevara was a hero. I don't agree with all of his theories, but he was a true revolutionary who acted against injustice, rather than someone who sat on the sidelines. I don't consider him a Stalinist, as someone pointed out he opposed Stalinism. He sought to liberate the third world, Cuba's alliance with the USSR was more one of convenience than actual Stalinism. He was a true Revolutionary who really believed in Revolution, he was willing to sacrifice his life for that, he was not interested in personal power and he never gave up the struggle, that's why I admire him. Hasta la victoria siempre.