Questions for Communists - Just Wanna Know Some Things

[capitalistagressor]

Despite my username, I wish to agravate nobody, I simply wish to learn somethings from you folks.

First, with the war being fought in Iraq, You all say how it is an imparialist war, how is this? Is it not being fought for humanitarian reasons?

Secondly, where is the oppression? You speak of capitalism being so oppressive, to whom is it oppressive? How is it oppression when you employ people to make you money, how is it oppressive when you control the value of someone's labor? How does capitalism become an oppressor in the eyes of communists?

[The Sniper]

Hmm its odd how you can call your self a capitalist when u know so little about it. Surely it is clear that by dominating markets and price fixing they can control peoples lives and exploit helpless ppl to work outragous hours for little or no money. By creating a society thats sole goal is to make money by having money the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I mean a rich person can put their money in the bank or in stocks and get much much richer very quicky where a poor person will have to work for a very small wage. So therefor a forever decreasing number of ppl get richer and richer and a vast number of ppl get poorer. By having welth the rich can control land, trade, power and people.

The point about iraq is the US will go in give power of trade to massive US companies who will naturally expolite the poor ppl of iraq to make even more money. The US seeks to further its interests in iraq by controling the government with aid (like they have in almost every other third world country), therefore it is just neo-imperialism, creating another pro-US government and securing them an even larger foothold than that of Isreal.

[chamo]

Is it not being fought for humanitarian reasons?

I seriously doubt it. These are not Bush's intentions and they have never been the intentions for any US led war; don't expect it to come true now. I myself am happy that the Iraqi people are free from Saddam, but for the time being who knows what is to happen. It was the USA who put Saddam in power, fully knowing what he is capable of, so it possible that the same will happen over again when the US puts in another pro-CIA leader and then exploit the population as I explain below...


how is it oppressive when you control the value of someone's labor?

Well that's just the point. 6% of the population controls 50% of the wealth and that in itself is oppressive because there is a un-proportionate power in the bourgeois' advantage.

It is all a very complicated system, but the belief is mostly down to exploitation of the proletariat by the bourgeois class. For example, a worker will make a shoe and get paid £1, but the company then sells the shoe for £20 and makes profit. The heads of the company live in luxury while the worker who produced the product lives in poverty. That's just a small scale example. Read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, the first two chapters explain.

Also it is pretty clear that the capitalism has failed and will enevitably crash as is explained throughout the forum and in the Manifesto.

(Edited by happyguy at 10:58 pm on April 9, 2003)

[Show me the Money]

Can i ask you a counter question CappieA??-- ever lived outside of the US?

btw, WELCOME TO THE OI FORUM!!!!

[Show me the Money]

Always great to meet a fellow dutchman!! :P

or aren't you from the greatest country on the earth?? :P

[The Sniper]

Dutch ppl!!! i can only count 1 but whoohoooo say for Cannabis! Sorry cant contain myself im going holland in a few months and the though of all that draw gets me excited, much in the way mass carnage and destruction tweeks Dubyas switch!

[Xvall]

Despite my username, I wish to agravate nobody, I simply wish to learn somethings from you folks.

Not a problem. Welcome to the board.

First, with the war being fought in Iraq, You all say how it is an imparialist war, how is this? Is it not being fought for humanitarian reasons?

Amnesty International is a humanitarian orginization. Green Peace is a humanitarian orginization. The United States Marine Corps is not a humanitarian orginization. If you believe that a certain group of people is being opressed then you should gain their support in some sort of coup or uprising. Bombing them is not a very good idea if you wish to recieve their unconditional love.

Secondly, where is the oppression? You speak of capitalism being so oppressive, to whom is it oppressive?[i]

The opression is in the Third World. All of those people who have no choice but to work every single day for ten cents so that they can make 100$ Air Jordans that spoiled Americans can shoot themselves over not getting. The opression is in Indonesia, Haiti, El Salvador, Colombia...

[i]How is it oppression when you employ people to make you money, how is it oppressive when you control the value of someone's labor?

......? Well; seeing as employing people to make you money is using them for your better, that is expoitative as it is.

How does capitalism become an oppressor in the eyes of communists?

It is hard to convince Americans and other 1st world citizens that capitalism is opressive because they are not the ones being opressed. However, any 3rd worlder will agree that capitalism and globalization are horrible.

[Chiak47]

Holy fuck mention weed and "snipe" tweaks.Dopehead put one in your head and end it all.Fuck the dead ideas you hold onto with bloody fingers.Fuck what you think, your just a dirtball in the cogs of this great society.Holding us back cause you want to smoke a "J" with your deadbeat friends.Maybe you have a little "red star tat" you like to freak your girlfriend out with but I'm not impressed.Your scum.Keep your mind clean and maybe reality might kick in.

BTW instead of blowing dough on a trip and some weed or whatever why not be a good red and donate to the "Twanda I have 20 kids with no dad foundation".

I bet your pissed at cappies cause it's the system that makes you sell your ass on the street.

Thanks,
amused

[canikickit]

Do you drink alcohol, Chiak?

[Chiak47]

CanIkickit,

I'm straight.Thank you for the offer.j/k
I see where this is going...NOPE-I dont drink,smoke or chew.I dont stick needles in me nor do I snort.I do however spend too much money on toy trains and RC planes/cars.I also have a sick twisted habit of buying firearms without thinking.Oh yea I just got my nephew his very first paintball gun for his birthday on Friday.

Can those things be had in a commie utopia or would I have to share them with my county?

Thanks,
flattered

[Robot Rebellion]

Quote: from capitalistagressor:First, with the war being fought in Iraq, You all say how it is an imparialist war, how is this? Is it not being fought for humanitarian reasons?

It's being fought over oil wealth. Imperialist as in the dollar will once again become the intermediary of exchange to purchase the oil in Iraq, and not the Euro (giving wealth big time to the US). Imperialist as it will be inevitable that Bush will privatize the state-run oil companies for American companies. (It is always disastrous going from a quasi-socialist system to capitalism, as privatizing is about selling something that belongs to no one to proletariat buyers who have nothing (the capitalist practically gets his booty for free). Imperialist as Iraq will be tool to break Opec’s back, by wracking up production big time. We're running out of oil, and the US as (like so many times before) resorts to military violence to enforce property rights abroad. If you are curious, PNAC.info takes a peak at Bush's big and evil plans to counter shrinking domestic oil supplies.

Fun quote of the day from Bush Sr during the Gulf War: "We are also talking about maintaining access to energy resources that are key, not just to the functioning of this country but to the entire world. Our jobs, our way of life, our own freedom, and the freedom of friendly countries around the world would all suffer if control of the world's great oil reserves fell into the hands of that one man, Saddam Hussein."

Secondly, where is the oppression?

The exclusion power over property sanctioned by force or threat thereof.

You speak of capitalism being so oppressive, to whom is it oppressive?

To those who do not have the means of production.

How is it oppression when you employ people to make you money, how is it oppressive when you control the value of someone's labor?

An analogy to put in perspective: Say you are born on a space station owned by a single capitalist. You own nothing. With such a situation the capitalist could charge you whatever he wants to for room, board, fees to merely avoid trespassing, fees to enter certain rooms in the station, fees to breath, fees to talk, and so on... What choice have you? You have to work in the industrial core of the station to make luxuries for the owner, while you struggle to pay both property usury, and pay for your own consumption. Transpose this a bit, and that space station is capitalist Earth.

To specifically answer your question, if the employer (like a medieval land baron) has a disproportionate claim on the means of production (can't eat without land!), then this will manifest itself as a surplus for the baron so he can make nice castles to defend and hoard his stolen wealth. All exchanges (since derived from property) mix that which can't be owned with labor, so it is inevitable that those outside of the loop, and with only labor to give, will be exploited.

How does capitalism become an oppressor in the eyes of communists?

By controlling that which can't be privatized, to enrich the few at the expense of have-nots. Some view this as a symptom of the bigger disease, that being hierarchy which is in its very nature exploitative.

[Charred Phoenix]

Your scum.


So speaks he-who-cannot-spell-"you're".

[Chiak47]

ok your a moron.Resort to school shit-punk.

[Charred Phoenix]

That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard, let me help you relearn what you should have learnt in one of the "Great Nations" schools:

_______________________________________________

Your Your (=ur), pron. & a. OE. your, yoghour, eowr,
eower, AS. e'ower, originally used as the gen. of ge,
g=e, ye; akin to OFries. iuwer your, OS. iuwar, D. uw, OHG.
iuw=er, G. euer, Icel. yethar, Goth. izwara, izwar, and
E. you. root189. See You.
The form of the possessive case of the personal pronoun you.

you're Audio pronunciation of you're ( P ) Pronunciation Key (yr; yr when unstressed)

Contraction of you are.

_______________________________________________

Ok, let me elaborate on that, because you are probably too stupid to decipher the above; "you're" is a contraction, or combination, of "you are", hence, if you want to call someone something you say "you're <so and so>" because what you are saying (in its expand form) is "you are <so and so>. "Your" on the otherhand signifies ownership, so if you say "your <so and so>" you mean, "I am referring to <so and so> which is currently in your posession. Stupid Fucker.

(Edited by Charred Phoenix at 7:34 am on April 10, 2003)

[The Sniper]

Sorry Nazi, ill just go bomb some iraqs and kick my disgusting habit of smoking a plant that is less dangerous than fucking tobacco and has killed no one. Unlike those 2'000lb bombs that were dropped on Iraq. Loook before u fucking lecture me get some brains you stupid fascist prick.

[Iepilei]

The oppression lies everywhere. Under paid workers in third world sweatshops, to the overworked parents here in America.

"The great majority of us are employees, including most of us who call ourselves "managers" or "professionals." We take orders. Not 5 percent of Americans have any real say about their jobs. This might seem at first blush a pitiful state of weakness, but doesn't it also suggest a terriffic power? We are the 95 percent. The emperor has no clothes! As employees - and more importantly as citizens - we do not have to accept work as it is. Nor do we have to accept that work is all there is."

To anyone who is forced to work for someone else in order to surivive, to give up their time to construct for someone else - this is oppression. It is wage-slavery. You may live under some callous illusion that this is free and fine, but ponder over this. If this nation we've developed is so great, if the stress of the "eager beaver" disease is a positive thing let me ask you, why is it so many Americans are taking prozac? Or valium? Why does our nation have one of the highest rates of diagnosed depression in the world?

It is because, nothing in our society is for the betterment of the individual. Wealth has nothing to do with happiness.

[synthesis]

The idea that the U.S. will improve the lot of the Iraqi people is purely fallacious. In no country in which the U.S. has intervened pre- and post-WWII have the people come out better for it.

The U.S. has never restored democracy to any nation aside from within WWII. In fact, they have destroyed it on dozens of occasions. America has destroyed democracy in Chile, Greece, Iraq, Nicaragua, Grenada, Costa Rica, and far too many other nations. In fact, Saddam Hussein was the result of one such annihilation. To say that she intends to break away from this pattern here in Iraq requires faith bordering on jingoism.

By the way, welcome, capitalist aggressor. We are in dire need of some intelligent opposition around here.

[Soul Rebel]

Quote: from capitalistagressor on 10:33 pm on April 9, 2003
Despite my username, I wish to agravate nobody, I simply wish to learn somethings from you folks.

First, with the war being fought in Iraq, You all say how it is an imparialist war, how is this? Is it not being fought for humanitarian reasons?

Secondly, where is the oppression? You speak of capitalism being so oppressive, to whom is it oppressive? How is it oppression when you employ people to make you money, how is it oppressive when you control the value of someone's labor? How does capitalism become an oppressor in the eyes of communists?


Answer to 1st question: Its about imperialism when we go into another country in order to inforce our culture and standards. Its not about humanitarism- if it was the U.S. government would have done something when S.H. first came into power- 35yrs. ago.

Answer to 2nd question- Capitalism is based on exploitation. Exploitation is obviously oppressive. Capitalist make profits through surplus value, which is extra or unpaid work. For example, forcing workers in factories to work 10 to 12 hours, but only paying them for 8. I can list a bunch of companies that do this. Also, companies go into 3rd world countries to make their products because it is cheaper- not paying taxes and cheaper labor. These companies pay like 80cents an hour (if lucky) and then when the product is sold in the U.S. its like 10 times more expensive. The companies and the owners of production are making money off of these workers, when they are doing nothing in the production process. Work is also very degrading because you end up performing the same repetitive jobs everyday. There is no room for thinking, ideas, innovation, etc. You must follow strick guidelines for efficiency. This is very degrading, given that as human beings we have been given the gift of rationalization (which i think most people have lost). Also, you have to consider that when there is class difference, oppression is bound to exist. Oppression is the reason that classism, racism, sexism, agism, etc. exist. By having a class difference some people have more and better opportunities in life then others. For example, the rich and middle-class (depending) can afford to go to better schools and therefore get a better education. In doing so these people are able to move up the social ladder, they have more mobility in life. Those in the lower/working/poor class do not have this opportunity. They end up being stuck in this generational pattern in which their social and class position does not allow them to move up and out.