Patriotic Socialists?

[The Douche]

I know this has been covered a number of times but I'm just curious how people feel about socialists who are "patriotic".

i.e. Woody Guthrie, wrote about loving America, wrote this land is your land, which is obviously a socialist song, but at the same time is patriotic and describes his affinity for the land he lives in, and clearly, that he loves. Or the Angelic Upstarts and thier song "England", they're SWP members, and open Marxists but they love the country, or at least, thier interpretation of the ideas behind it.

Whats up with this?

I can't lie, I do feel some affinity for the American tradition of independence and anti-authoritarian ideals, and it is a beautiful country. I am definitely an internationalist but I will admit, that when I take a ride through the rural areas around my town its beautiful, and I do get inspired when I read about some of the American traditions. (though they were mainly just ideals and never put into practice)


*I couldn't decide where to put this...maybe learning?

[reddevil]

patriotism is not the same as nationalism. it is perfectly acceptable to be proud of your roots so long as you reject chauvinism and respect the roots of others. as a british person and a socialist, how could i not be proud of being born in the country which produced john lennon, william shakespeare, george orwell, emily pankhurst, hg wells, charles dickens, , eric hobsbawn, tariq ali, john locke, adam smith, john stuart mill, ken loach, keith richards, charles darwin, richard dawkins, christopher hitchens (until recently) , bertrand russell, isaac newton, the cast of monty python.... i could go on and on

[Raúl Duke]

I'm somewhat devoid of feelings of nationalism/patriotism towards a specific country (I mean...Puerto Rico is the oldest colony...nothing to feel proud of) although I sometimes feel a sense of solidarity with other Latin Americans (like pan-latinamericanism...I suppose).

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Although i'm not patriotic and do not promote patriotism, I think it's acceptable as long as it remains Socialist.
Chauvinism is to be rejected, as are all sorts of right-wing nationalism.

[Labour Leftie]

I think patriotism is okay as long as it doesn't breed into nationalistic and protectionistic tendencies. I don't feel particularly patriotic to the country where I live (England) however I do sometimes feel patriotic towards Europe.

@Reddevil, Emmeline (Emily) Pankhurst was a anti-working class, conservative. If you want someone who really fought for women's suffrage for EVERYONE (not just the middle and upper classes like Emmeline and Christabel) then list Sylvia Pankhurst who courageously kept fighting for the working class women and embraced peace when Emmeline and Christabel Pankhurst were off war-mongering with their middle-class cronies.

[redarmyfaction38]

I know this has been covered a number of times but I'm just curious how people feel about socialists who are "patriotic".

i.e. Woody Guthrie, wrote about loving America, wrote this land is your land, which is obviously a socialist song, but at the same time is patriotic and describes his affinity for the land he lives in, and clearly, that he loves. Or the Angelic Upstarts and thier song "England", they're SWP members, and open Marxists but they love the country, or at least, thier interpretation of the ideas behind it.

Whats up with this?

I can't lie, I do feel some affinity for the American tradition of independence and anti-authoritarian ideals, and it is a beautiful country. I am definitely an internationalist but I will admit, that when I take a ride through the rural areas around my town its beautiful, and I do get inspired when I read about some of the American traditions. (though they were mainly just ideals and never put into practice)


*I couldn't decide where to put this...maybe learning?
patriotism is a subjective emotion, i have great waves of "patriotic" emotion when i think of the gains won by my ancestors against the ruling class, i think of the levellers, the diggers, the chartists, the tolpuddle martyrs, the great strikes of 1926, the 1960s and 70s when my ancestors moved into action against the state to acheive the "rights" i enjoyed until recently.
i'm proud of being british... british working class, that is.
i'll let you think and play with that to your hearts content :confused:

[Yehuda Stern]

First of all, being SWP members and being nationalists is in no way contradictory - it's pretty complimentary, in fact. Anyway, this was dealt with a while back in a thread called "patriotism - bad, bad, bad?" I think the answer would be that yes, although patriotism in the third world has a progressive element in it, in any case patriotism is a reactionary ideology which is incompatible with Marxism.

[BraneMatter]

Patriotism is ok as long as it does not become a tool for imperialism, fascist nationalism, exploitation, class warfare, racism, ethnic cleansing, etc.

Unfortunately, too many people have notions like "my country right or wrong." There are a lot of ugly chapters to U.S. history, but there have also been those who struggled to end the injustices and evils.

On another forum, a person supporting the fascist and racist Hal Turner, called him a true patriot, and said America was only intended by our forefathers to be a "whites only" nation! Another person then asked him, if that was the case, then why did our forefathers bring over black slaves to begin with. When the Hal Turner supporter cited the fact that Turner was a former Marine, I told him, "Hitler was a former soldier, too." So there are some pretty distorted notions of patriotism floating around.

Our goal is to transform the U.S., not destroy it. We want the destruction of capitalism, not the nation itself.

That being said, there is very little about the United States these days that I am 'proud' of, and you won't see any flag pins on my lapel...

[Schrödinger's Cat]

There is nothing wrong with appreciating the history and people who form your community, so long as you realize you're part of the biggest community - the Earth.

[JimmyJazz]

People on this board are constantly distinguishing between patriotism and nationalism, but I don't get it. They treat patriotism as though it is "affinity for a particular culture". This must be some weird leftists-only definition, because in normal society, patriotism is clearly recognized as a feeling directed toward nations (political-legal entities), not one's "culture" or "roots". There is some overlap between nations and cultures to be sure, but it is clear that nations are ultimately the object of patriotism. We salute a flag, not an apple pie; we pledge allegiance to the Republic for which it stands, not to the beautiful landscapes or the friendly people that inhabit it. So I would have to say that this distinction between patriotism and nationalism is dumb. Patriotism is political.

And it's not like patriotism isn't dangerous. In a first world country, there is a direct--and short--line from patriotism to imperialism/first world chauvinism.

I always took "This Land is Your Land" to have a purely socialist message and not a patriotic one. I mean, considering that he was a socialist, it's not far fetched. If the Zapatistas wrote a song called "This Land is Your Land", no one would take it to be a patriotic Mexican little ditty.

"This land is your land and this land is my land, sure, but the world is run by those that never listen to music anyway."-Bob Dylan, as qtd. on JimmyJazz's facebook

[Saorsa]

Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the "patriotism" of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the "patriotism" of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better.... For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world. China's case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, "Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors." For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by hghting in defence of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism. - Mao Zedong


"The Role of the Chinese Communist Party in the National War" (October 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 196.*

[JimmyJazz]

More word soup from history's deepest leftist philosopher. :rolleyes:

No offense to you personally CA, I like you. But with a few replacements of key terms ("communism" for "democracy") and place names ("Japan and Germany" for "Iran and North Korea"), that quote could easily have been written by Dick Cheney, about how American patriotism is "applied democratic internationalism".

[Comrade B]

The way I see it there are several different kinds of patriotism

There is patriotism due to the love for your country's history, its founding principles and its government system

There is patriotism due to a love for the people of your country, you see them as beautiful and do what you can to help them

And there is nationalism, often a mix of the above two with the idea that your country is better than others, and that your government and all its decisions are correct.

They believe that because their country did it, it must be moral.

If you just love the people of your country and want to help them, you can still be a socialist and a patriot

[Agnapostate]

National patriotism is acceptable to some extent, I suppose...inasmuch as it does not devolve into ignorant forms of nationalism and does not surpass the most patriotic elements: love of liberty and equality.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I think Ho Chi Minh is a quite good example of a Communist patriot.

[Yehuda Stern]

People on this board are constantly distinguishing between patriotism and nationalism, but I don't get it. They treat patriotism as though it is "affinity for a particular culture". This must be some weird leftists-only definition, because in normal society, patriotism is clearly recognized as a feeling directed toward nations (political-legal entities), not one's "culture" or "roots". There is some overlap between nations and cultures to be sure, but it is clear that nations are ultimately the object of patriotism. We salute a flag, not an apple pie; we pledge allegiance to the Republic for which it stands, not to the beautiful landscapes or the friendly people that inhabit it. So I would have to say that this distinction between patriotism and nationalism is dumb. Patriotism is political.

Agreed.

[Saorsa]

More word soup from history's deepest leftist philosopher. :rolleyes:


Actually I think that's a very astute piece of writing, certainly not worthy of being labelled "word soup".


No offense to you personally CA, I like you.

Pleased to hear it, I've met worse people than you too. But it's not necessary to say that to me, and shouldn't be necessary for anyone. There's a very negative tendency on the left to tone down political criticisms for fear of offending someone, and I think it's a real problem. You should be able to criticise someone politically, on the basis of their political line, without them taking offence personally.


But with a few replacements of key terms ("communism" for "democracy") and place names ("Japan and Germany" for "Iran and North Korea"), that quote could easily have been written by Dick Cheney, about how American patriotism is "applied democratic internationalism".

The difference is that in the examples you listed, America would be an imperialist aggressor invading another country and subjugating it's people. In the case of China, which Mao was describing, it was a national liberation struggle against an imperialist agressor that had subjucated and brutally treated the people of China. The situations are completely different.

And of course the meaning will be totally different if you change the words. If you edit the final words of the Communist Manifesto, it could say "Capitalists of all countries, you guys rock!". Does that invalidate Marx's call for workers of all nations to unite?

[Saorsa]

Here's another bowl of "word soup". :cool:

To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or oldsubordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism. - Mao Zedong
COMBAT LIBERALISM

September 7, 1937

[Yehuda Stern]

To all the people adoring patriotism in here, let me ask you this: the Israeli CP refers to itself as a patriotic Israeli party. What do you think of that? Do you think that I, a revolutionary anti-Zionist in Israel, should become a patriot?

[Saorsa]

^ No, because the patriotism of the Israeli CP means feeling good about and upholding the existence of an oppressive, racist and thoroughly reactionary Zionist nation-state. As you obviously know.

Patriotism and nationalism (which are synonymous) are progressive phenomenons in the context of an oppressed nation. They are a reactionary phenomenon in the context of an oppressor nation like Israel, the US, the UK, New Zealand or wherever.

[Bilan]

Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but must be.

Is this like an ironic quote from On Contradiction?


Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our
slogan is, "Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors."


For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by hghting in defence of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism. - Mao Zedong

"The Role of the Chinese Communist Party in the National War" (October 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 196.*[/quote]


That is complete and utter bullshit, and shows just how fucking absurd National Liberation supporters really are.

[Incendiarism]

I don't think appreciating the culture of another or your own really constitutes as any sort of patriotism or nationalism.

For example, I'm a huge fan of france and consider some of their literature and artistic achievements(amongst other things certainly) to be of a certain quality which isn't easily topped, so how in the world could that be anything but admiration? Surely the same could apply to america(my country of birth), and I do like where I'm situated...the weather, some of the people, the atmosphere of certain cities, it's nice.

I wouldn't call it patriotism at all.

[Yehuda Stern]

Patriotism and nationalism (which are synonymous) are progressive phenomenons in the context of an oppressed nation. They are a reactionary phenomenon in the context of an oppressor nation like Israel, the US, the UK, New Zealand or wherever.

Well, at least we have some agreement - patriotism in an imperialist country is reactionary, and there is a difference between imperialist patriotism and the patriotism of the oppressed. However, patriotism is still reactionary even in an oppressed country. As Marx said, "the workers have no country." The workers of China have much more to do with the workers of Japan, Korea, and the world than with the peasants or capitalists of China. To say otherwise is to go against everything Marxism stands for.

[JimmyJazz]

Pleased to hear it, I've met worse people than you too.

lol, thanks. :cool:


The difference is that in the examples you listed, America would be an imperialist aggressor invading another country and subjugating it's people. In the case of China, which Mao was describing, it was a national liberation struggle against an imperialist agressor that had subjucated and brutally treated the people of China. The situations are completely different.

Indeed they are, which is why you should just change the words around. Why would you appropriate a ruling class concept like patriotism? That's just asking for trouble. It's not hard to just give it a new name: anti-imperialism.

And the truth is, I think we can see today the very trouble that Mao was asking for. The ruling clique in China make all kinds of patriotic appeals to "national greatness" in their breakneck pursuit of full-blown capitalism.

The bottom line is that, of course we can take sides in some international conflicts even as we pursue a nationless world, but that's not what patriotism is. Patriotism isn't a matter of means, it is it's own end. A true "patriot" wants to *preserve* nations, not destroy them. The fact that he wants one nation (his own) to dominate all the others is only a secondary objection from my standpoint; my primarily problem with patriots the world over is that they want nations to exist at all. Only for liberals is the idea of an imbalance of power between nations the primary objection to nationalism. For radicals is should be the very idea of nations existing and continuing to artificially divide up humanity.

So, any Japanese who were patriotic, fuck 'em. Any Chinese who were patriotic, fuck them too. They would have gone on to become imperialists themselves if they'd later had the chance. Any Japanese or Chinese who worked to fight imperialism on principle, those people I support morally as well as materially. But I would not ever support patriots morally, as Mao does in that quote. It's totally ridiculous to say that because a tactical alliance with third world patriots (whether Chinese, Latin American, American during WWII) may be beneficial at certain times, therefore patriotism is ever good in itself. It isn't, and it isn't neutral either; it's intrinsically bad and reactionary. As far as I'm concerned, internationalism is just a pit stop on the road to nationlessness, the latter being something that patriots of all nations oppose.

[BraneMatter]

There is a CPUSA blog post on this issue HERE (http://cpusaelections.blogspot.com/2008/07/should-left-celebrate-4th-of-july.html), and some good arguments on both sides. It's worth a visit.

I have posted a couple of comments there under the same user name.

Some want to go charging down Pennsylvania Ave. with AK's blazing, and others take a more strategic and long term view.

[Chapaev]

Patriotism is the love of one’s fatherland and the desire to serve the interests of one’s country through one’s actions. In a class society patriotism is class oriented. Genuine patriotism is not compatible with cosmopolitanism and nationalism. Under socialism, a socialist patriotism of all the people develops.

Every class expresses its attitude to the fatherland through its specific interests. The patriotism of the bourgeoisie allies itself with nationalism and chauvinism and is limited to exploitative interests. The proletariat acts as the champion of the people’s fundamental national interests. Hence, the proletariat is the bearer of genuine patriotism.

Socialist patriotism combines love for the best national traditions of one’s people with a selfless devotion to communism and with a respect for other peoples. Socialist patriotism is inseparably linked with proletarian internationalism. Internationalism means the solidarity of the national sections of the working class. It is a duty to educate workers in the spirit of internationalism and socialist patriotism and against any hint of nationalism and chauvinism.

Nationalism views the nation as a supraclass form of social unity and as a harmonious whole, all of which social strata have identical interests. Characteristic of nationalism are ideas of national superiority and national exclusiveness. Cosmopolitanism is a reactionary bourgeois ideology that teaches the renunciation national traditions and patriotism. Cosmopolitanism calls for the merging of nations by forcible assimilation. But Marxists envision the gradual and voluntary drawing together and then merging of nations because of the objective course of social development.