POLICE VIOLENCE AGAINST ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS - Oakland, Calif

[redstar2000]

Homepage Story plus links to photos, videos, and first-hand accounts of Oakland's fascist pigs from

http://sf.indymedia.org

Bourgeois press confirmations from:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...08/MN268512.DTL (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/08/MN268512.DTL)

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...08/MN229620.DTL (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/08/MN229620.DTL)

America--the Land of Shit!

:angry:

[Chiak47]

Red,

I was watching that last night on the news and I was hoping you were in the mix getting a baton stuck in ear.

Thanks for sharing,
More to come

[abstractmentality]

Chiak,
i had friends at this protest, one showed me his leg where he was shot. he brought back the shell from the shotguns, a bean bag, and a rubber bullet. if you look at the video, they were 100% peacefully protesting, and did not deserve getting shot at and getting concusion grenades thrown at them.

i was oh so close to being there.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Chiak... You moron... Those people are like you and me. You should respect them. From what I read, you seem to think everything against your lying gouvernment is crap. This is exactly what happened with the Germans and Hitler, many of them got controlled by him, and it was not by force...

But okay... The police are just a bunch of bullies, I mean, they are as bad as the Mafia can be. But are they peace-keeping forces? Suuuuuuuuure... and I'm Robert De Niro.

abstract, I hope the guy will get better... :(

[abstractmentality]

boris:
my friend didnt get it bad, but from the pictures you see on indymedia, you can see that many people did get it bad. in fact, my friend posted some of his pictures on that site, and will be posting some more soon.

[Boris Moskovitz]

"Get bad"... you mean like mortal wounds or just a little less than that? Well... I think if cops are just doing that, I guess peaceful ways are just not enough. We need to be hard on them... People usually ignore protests, I mean, the people you see outside everydays. They will just come by the protests and ignore it. I don't think protesting is efficient because the politics don't seem to give a damn.

(A bullet in the leg still hurts! I couldn't imagine having one anywhere...)

[abstractmentality]

im not sure what hit him, but he has a decent size cut on his leg. relative to some of the other people there, he got off light.

for some thoughts on protesting, see the practice forum thread Blac Bloc.

[Chiak47]

Lafties,

No,not everything "my" goverment does I believe in.Not by along shot.I do believe in the paper in the frame though.I am constantly calling and writing my rep's about issues I find unjust.
I do believe in the troops and if they are there really to get the fist off the iraqi's then I'm for that also..

The people at those docks were against everything I mean EVERYTHING this country stands for and hell yea I'm against them.

Thanks for your concern,
Sick of *****es

[abstractmentality]

"The people at those docks were against everything I mean EVERYTHING this country stands for and hell yea I'm against them."

the protestors were against everything this country stands for? if this is what you are saying, then i think you should elaborate.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Chiak wouldn't... You know that, and that makes me think further he thinks he is blind. :biggrin:

[Chiak47]

abstractmentality,

There is good in this country.Yet,I name some examples and people here shoot them down no matter how good they (re:the examples) are.

I'm all for someone going to school and working to raise a family.I'm all for the people at Mcdonalds who get up everyday to earn a way through school.

I was in football in school.There was a woman who used to come to the field and collect cans like clockwork.My dad talked to her and she told him she was saving the money to send her kid through college.
That is commendable.

We have chances in this country to go places,Build companies and help people.We send aid to all parts of the world to help out.

We also have corruption,greed and lack of control in alot of sectors of this society.

I doubt when you deal with close to 300,000,000 people there would be no wrong doers in any form of government.It does get hammered on when the people find out here.

I believe the majority of the people in this country do get dealt fair hands in life and I truelly feel sorry for the ones who just happen to get left out.
By left out I mean maybe they made bad choices in life and this society is a unforgiving one.It also has a hard time forgetting past fuck ups.

Thanks,
I hope I made myself clear

[abstractmentality]

i think the ideas on "opportunity" in America is something i criticized in another thread. but, nonetheless, since you have the thought you have stated, i would suggest you read Aint No Makin' It (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813315158/qid=1049863968/sr=2-1/103-1397068-6531017?v=glance&s=books) by Jay MacCleod. this book goes through the "opportunities" in america, and how much of a chance everybody has. the title makes it apparent what the author learned while working with kids growing up in a project. we spent about 2 weeks in my cultural anthropology class dispelling the belief of "equality of opportunity" on this level.

on a purely opportunity cost economic thought, i will prove to you, right here, right now, how we all do not have an equality of opportunity. opportunity cost is the "cost" of the next most highly valued option when making a decision. so, if i have to decide between a snickers and a bag of chips, and i choose the chips, the snickers is the opportunity cost. so, when born into a low income family, they have a higher probability of not going to college because of opportunity cost. the idea of going to college is high, but the fact is that they may need to stay home and work in order to bring home money to help out. thus, the opportunity cost of work is school, and work is valued more because of the immediate benefit of it that is essential, with college being an extra that will cost the family the money the young adult could have made while in work. so, with the move of jobs from manufactoring to technical jobs, it is more hard now, relative to 20 years ago, for a person with a high school education to get a job good enough to buy a house, raise a family, etc. on the other hand, the person born into a well off family does not have to worry about the opportunity cost of working after high school because they dont have to help out back at home. they can go onto college to get a degree, and not send money back home to help out. thus, they are at an advantage relative to the high school graduate from a low income family. equality of opportunity does not exist.

you are right in your assertion of this country having a "hard time forgetting past fuck ups," but you are wrong in your thought about equality of opportunity.

also, those "fuck ups" must be looked into. how were these people "pushed" into "jumping" into those fuck ups? what kind of social structures weighed down upon these individuals? the fact that you dont make reference to these implies you deny they exist, which is a grave mistake. i have lived and seen, in many instances, the effects of social structures on people, young and old. i used to volunteer at my former elementary school. this is a school from a place we called in high school "the hood." you should have heard these kids talk about their "future." it wasnt pretty. one of my friends worked with elementary kids at a middle class school in my city. one of the kids told her there that his goal was to grow up, get a nice car, get a good looking girl pregnant, and sell drugs to support them. is this not an effect of social structures? or was this child born like that? i would bet my life on social structures.

maybe i missed something, but i didnt see an answer to my question about the protestors in your response. you were talking about equality of opportunity, to a certain extent, and i was talking about protestors at a dock getting brutalized by police.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 10:15 pm on April 8, 2003)

[Sabocat]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 10:18 am on April 9, 2003
Lafties,

No,not everything "my" goverment does I believe in.Not by along shot.I do believe in the paper in the frame though.I am constantly calling and writing my rep's about issues I find unjust.
I do believe in the troops and if they are there really to get the fist off the iraqi's then I'm for that also..

The people at those docks were against everything I mean EVERYTHING this country stands for and hell yea I'm against them.

Thanks for your concern,
Sick of *****es


Great post Abstract...thanks

Chiak, Those people at the docks were against everything this country stands for?

Actually that is frighteningly true these days. However the right to freedom of assembly is one of the cornerstones the US was founded on.

What other amendments would you like to get rid of? We should probably get rid of the pesky freedom of speech thingy next. :shocked: From what I've seen you post, the only right you're passionate about is the Right to Bear Arms. The reason that is in there is so that the government if it becomes to corrupt may be overthrown by the people. Yes?

[Xvall]

The people at those docks were against everything I mean EVERYTHING this country stands for and hell yea I'm against them.

I'm against you. That give me the right to beat you with a baton and shoot you, right?

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 3:32 am on April 9, 2003
Chiak,
i had friends at this protest, one showed me his leg where he was shot. he brought back the shell from the shotguns, a bean bag, and a rubber bullet. if you look at the video, they were 100% peacefully protesting, and did not deserve getting shot at and getting concusion grenades thrown at them.

i was oh so close to being there.


You can still be protesting peacefully, but when you do not obey police orders to disband, you will be shot with less leathal ammo. The police promissed that they were going to get shot, they kept thier promise.

Don't you get it? The prescribed method of getting crowds to cooperate is with the use of pain. If the police politely asked you to leave? Would you have done it? The police crowd control are gorillas. When a gorillas asks you to leave, do you?

Lesson to learn from this: The UN has politely asked Saddam to abide by resolutions for 12 years. Do you think he would have done it?

I saw the news on protest, the crowd was asked three times to disband with treats. If you really believe it your cause, then you will go back and get shot, again and again and again. There are people in Iraq who believe in thier cause who gave thier life. Do you believe in your cause as much?

[Pete]

Chiak, America is proving its self a police state. Liberal first, democractic later.

[Chiak47]

Pete,
I hate to agree with you but I do.It's the left and right thats doing it though.

Thanks,
*Sigh*

[kelvin90701]

Crazzzzy Pete:

First thing you have posted that I would agree with. The police you have to fear do not wear uniforms and do not practice with riot gear.

[abstractmentality]

kelvin:
do you know what happend? were you there, or did you have close personal friends there to tell you what happend? somehow i doubt it. they were peaceful protestors, simply picketing. the police did ask the crowd to leave (as one of my friends told me, another said she did not hear anything), and then after about 1 minute began shooting. as the people were leaving, they kept shooting. my friend said that when the protestors were off the property, in the street, the police were still shooting at them. my friends had to run, weaving in between cars, in order to get away from the police shooting at them. whats interesting, and backs this claim of fleeing, is that most of the pictures you see of people that were shot by police, were shot in the back. interesting, huh.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 7:26 am on April 10, 2003

Quote: from abstractmentality on 3:32 am on April 9, 2003
Chiak,
i had friends at this protest, one showed me his leg where he was shot. he brought back the shell from the shotguns, a bean bag, and a rubber bullet. if you look at the video, they were 100% peacefully protesting, and did not deserve getting shot at and getting concusion grenades thrown at them.

i was oh so close to being there.


You can still be protesting peacefully, but when you do not obey police orders to disband, you will be shot with less leathal ammo. The police promissed that they were going to get shot, they kept thier promise.

Don't you get it? The prescribed method of getting crowds to cooperate is with the use of pain. If the police politely asked you to leave? Would you have done it? The police crowd control are gorillas. When a gorillas asks you to leave, do you?

Lesson to learn from this: The UN has politely asked Saddam to abide by resolutions for 12 years. Do you think he would have done it?

I saw the news on protest, the crowd was asked three times to disband with treats. If you really believe it your cause, then you will go back and get shot, again and again and again. There are people in Iraq who believe in thier cause who gave thier life. Do you believe in your cause as much?






This is setting a dangerous precedent. If people going to protest marches know that they are going to be assaulted...guess what? They're gonna start protecting themselves. This kind of thing only begets violence.

Shooting a weapon at some poor kids protesting is a bit excessive don't you think? Maybe next time, the kids bring pieces of pipe to defend themselves with, and then the cops use real bullets...see where I'm going with this.

The cops could easily have just arrested the few that they needed to. It didn't need to go to this extreme. They were obviously trying to send a message. Well guess what...We all got it.

[abstractmentality]

Disgustapated:
you are right on! in other protest, the people doing civil disobedience, in whatever form, are willing to get arrested, and prefer it to physical conflict. the police could have very easily arrested the people there, but no, they shot people as they fled. why didnt they shoot people in san francisco when i was there on the day after? also, i personally think their is a difference in the oakland PD and the san francisco pd.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 8:32 am on April 10, 2003
kelvin:
do you know what happend? were you there, or did you have close personal friends there to tell you what happend? somehow i doubt it. they were peaceful protestors, simply picketing. the police did ask the crowd to leave (as one of my friends told me, another said she did not hear anything), and then after about 1 minute began shooting. as the people were leaving, they kept shooting. my friend said that when the protestors were off the property, in the street, the police were still shooting at them. my friends had to run, weaving in between cars, in order to get away from the police shooting at them. whats interesting, and backs this claim of fleeing, is that most of the pictures you see of people that were shot by police, were shot in the back. interesting, huh.


The were shot because they were blocking the transport of war material on a dock. They were not blocking traffic downtown. There is a difference between a downtown march and blocking the timely loading of food and ammo to the middle east. Your friends may have been peacefull, but they were not simply picketing.

[abstractmentality]

that is also why most of the people who were shot were shot in the back, right?

yes, they were attempting to block some shipments of arms, but i think that is their point: attempting to stop the companies that profit from war. in san francisco, we were blocking some specific locations, attempting to block places that profit from the war, as well as shutting down the financial district of San Fran as a whole. although the shipment of arms is a little higher on the scale of "dangerousness," i support their actions fully.

what is implied by your statement is that we are allowed to march, as long as the march has no effectiveness. as soon as any activism begins to actually work, and we are accomplishing what we want, than it is not ok. this is a horrid attitude.

[Chiak47]

Laftie,

I read account's from hippies in the late 60's standing in front of slow moving troop trains thinking they would stop...the train did not stop but a couple lives did.

I wonder what that smelled like.

Thanks,
Eric

[redstar2000]

Always glad to see another outburst of warmth and compassion from Chiak47. Such empathy is a shining example to us all. :cheesy:

:cool:

[Chiak47]

Red,
You('re)- (for the english majors out there) allright for a senile old man.
Hopefully you wont be on life support to long.

Thanks,
Eric

[Anonymous]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 4:36 am on April 11, 2003
that is also why most of the people who were shot were shot in the back, right?

yes, they were attempting to block some shipments of arms, but i think that is their point:


Do you support the troops? Then why block the shipment of needed weapons that will save their lives and end the war quicker. You endanger the lives of soldiers by denying their weapons. Protest the war, but do not leave the soldiers in Iraq defenseless.

The weapons of peacefull civil disobediance have already been outlined by many people before you. Gorrilas in riot gear do not play fair. If you believe in your cause, then you will go back and get shot, again and again and again. Men of stronger metal in Iraq did not run from real bullets. Men with stronger will have given their lives and won the Congressional Medal of Honor. Similiar men are in Iraq right now. Look around at your hippie friends? Any of them with the will to considered Congressional Medal of Honor winners for your cause? Until your friends have the strength of will to stand up to rubber bullets, you will never beat people with the will to stand up to real bullets. Util then, stay way from the docks, soldiers who go in harms way tonight need that material.

(Edited by kelvin9 at 6:57 am on April 11, 2003)

[abstractmentality]

my idea of supporting the troops best is to support their return.

how many people at this protest in oakland had been shot before? i know one of my friends that was there has been shot at before, the others im not to sure about. but what i can say is that many of them were dedicated to protest something that they knew could erupt to something else, and they did. standing up for what you believe in by protesting at a doc seems like a better solution then standing up in what you believe in by killing people that you are standing up for.

personally, if i had the chance to do it over again, i would go, no doubt.

is this your idea of an honorable troop: "But the warmongers are precisely the troops that Bush has in mind to "support." One such warmonger is Corp. Ryan Dupre, quoted in Sunday’s Times of London, after surveying a dozen burnt and bloody Iraqi corpses killed by U.S. soldiers as they tried to flee Nasiriya. "The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy," he said. "I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin’ Iraqi. No, I won’t get hold of one. I’ll just kill him." (http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-1/447/447_08_SupportTroops.shtml)? dont give me that bullshit about every soldier down there being honorable. i have one friend that has a cousin over there and is very much against the war, and does not support our troops.

[Anonymous]

What is the difference between Republican Guards shooting to stop a convoy and a protester on the docks? They both want the same thing. To stop the flow of important war material. Yes you will stop the war by stopping the flow of supplies. Stopping the supplies will also reverse the course of the war and send the troops home. The end game is Saddam is back in power and troops come home in body bags.

The soldiers way home is through Baghdad. They don't have a choice. They only come home after they have gone though Baghdad. Stopping the flow of food and ammo will only make thier job thougher and lengthen the time it takes to end the war. The forward push was already stopped once because supplies were not getting foward fast enough. Marines were down to one MRE a day, ammo was rationed. The lost time put soldiers in danger longer and gave the enemy time to regroup to kill more soldiers.

I am sure Marines thank you for the extra casualities and the extra days the will be spending away from their families.

[abstractmentality]

please, do not tell me that those soldiers out there have no choice but to do what they are told. if you believe that, and support it, then you are supporting an utterly totalitarian system, that which you claim to despise. on the other hand, my friend was telling me about people from the SWP during vietnam that would go over there with the specific intent of causing agitation among the ranks, and would not fight. they helped in broadening the perspectives of the troops, and eventually stopped a lot of soldiers from killing people. if there are soldiers there doing that, then i support them 100%. in fact, i read that some troops werent listening to all of the orders. i would provide a link for that, but i cant remember where i read it.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 10:38 am on April 11, 2003)

[Sabocat]

Quote: from kelvin9 on 7:11 am on April 11, 2003

Quote: from abstractmentality on 8:32 am on April 10, 2003
kelvin:
do you know what happend? were you there, or did you have close personal friends there to tell you what happend? somehow i doubt it. they were peaceful protestors, simply picketing. the police did ask the crowd to leave (as one of my friends told me, another said she did not hear anything), and then after about 1 minute began shooting. as the people were leaving, they kept shooting. my friend said that when the protestors were off the property, in the street, the police were still shooting at them. my friends had to run, weaving in between cars, in order to get away from the police shooting at them. whats interesting, and backs this claim of fleeing, is that most of the pictures you see of people that were shot by police, were shot in the back. interesting, huh.


The were shot because they were blocking the transport of war material on a dock. They were not blocking traffic downtown. There is a difference between a downtown march and blocking the timely loading of food and ammo to the middle east. Your friends may have been peacefull, but they were not simply picketing.



The world would not have stopped if the loading of ships had been delayed long enough for the police to arrest and remove these people without violence. Timely transport? Are you nuts? Do you have any idea how long it will take a container ship with a maximum speed of 20-25 knots to reach Iraq from California? Trust me, nothing could be less timely.

The cops were making a statement here. This kind of action is only going to escalate violence between protesters and police.

[abstractmentality]

thank you Disgustapated. well said.

[Anonymous]

The world would not have stopped if the loading of ships had been delayed long enough for the police to arrest and remove these people without violence. Timely transport? Are you nuts? Do you have any idea how long it will take a container ship with a maximum speed of 20-25 knots to reach Iraq from California? Trust me, nothing could be less timely.

The cops were making a statement here. This kind of action is only going to escalate violence between protesters and police.


What is the average death rate for US soldiers per day? About 1 or 2? Each day a cease fire is not reached is one more dead US soldier. What is the death rate or the Iraqi?

This container ship was has a schedule to keep. Every moment it is delayed, will push back the cease fire time table.

Maybe the war will be over before the ship gets to Iraq? Maybe not? Your friends never really considered that did they?

[truthaddict11]

seems to me most of the soilders deaths are caused by mechanical failure or human error. I dont think a slow moving barge would make any "cease fire" and stop deaths of soilders.
AbstractMentality, Have you ever seen footage or were you at Seattle 1999 WTO protests? Cops did the same things it included spraying pepper spray directly at protesters(and those not protesting) and ripping off thier gas masks and i believe helmets to protect themselves all for blocking the conference building. I have a video from Indymedia that was shot on the streets the days of the protests shows alot about the nice and friendly police force of Seattle. :)


(Edited by truthaddict11 at 8:03 am on April 13, 2003)

[Sabocat]

Quote: from kelvin9 on 3:22 pm on April 13, 2003


The world would not have stopped if the loading of ships had been delayed long enough for the police to arrest and remove these people without violence. Timely transport? Are you nuts? Do you have any idea how long it will take a container ship with a maximum speed of 20-25 knots to reach Iraq from California? Trust me, nothing could be less timely.

The cops were making a statement here. This kind of action is only going to escalate violence between protesters and police.


What is the average death rate for US soldiers per day? About 1 or 2? Each day a cease fire is not reached is one more dead US soldier. What is the death rate or the Iraqi?

This container ship was has a schedule to keep. Every moment it is delayed, will push back the cease fire time table.

Maybe the war will be over before the ship gets to Iraq? Maybe not? Your friends never really considered that did they?


You're kidding right? If you think critical supplies are being loaded on a ship rather than a C-5A Galaxy cargo plane, you're dillusional.

[Ghost Writer]

Let me remind you of only a few of the laws that cover the type of illegal activity that the antiwar protesters were engaged in. I have posted them before, but obviously most of you chose not to listen.

18 USC Sec. 232
1) The term ''civil disorder'' means any public disturbance involving acts of violence by assemblages of three or more persons, which causes an immediate danger of or results in damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual.

18 USC Sec. 231
(3) Whoever commits or attempts to commit any act to obstruct, impede, or interfere with any fireman or law enforcement officer lawfully engaged in the lawful performance of his official duties incident to and during the commission of a civil disorder which in any way or degree obstructs, delays, or adversely affects commerce or the movement of any article or commodity in commerce or the conduct or performance of any federally protected function - Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
(B) Nothing contained in this section shall make unlawful any act of any law enforcement officer which is performed in the lawful performance of his official duties.

18 USC Sec. 2101
(a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television,with intent -
(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), ©, or (D) of this paragraph

and most relevant to this particular case:

18 USC Section 2153
Destruction of war material, war premises, or war utilities
(a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, or in times of national emergency as declared by the President or by the Congress, with intent to injure, interfere with, or obstruct the United States or any associate nation in preparing for or carrying on the war or defense activities, or, with reason to believe that his act may injure, interfere with, or obstruct the United States or any associate nation in preparing for or carrying on the war or defense activities, willfully injures, destroys, contaminates or infects, or attempts to so injure, destroy, contaminate or infect any war material, war premises, or war utilities, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than thirty years, or both.
(B) If two or more persons conspire to violate this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be punished as provided in subsection (a) of this section.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, how do these laws apply to the Oakland situation?

"Demonstrators said they targeted the port because at least one company there is handling war supplies. They said it was the first time they had been fired upon in Bay area protests since the Iraq war began last month." ."- From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-07-oakland-protest_x.htm)

That being true, many of these protesters are lucky that they got away with only a huge welt on the side of their face, because they are in violation of Chapter 105 USC, the laws governing sabotage of war materials. Violation of this law is punishable by 30 years in prison. They deliberately blocked this port because they became aware that war supplies were being shipped out of this port. Furthermore, Federal laws concerning conspiracy to commit federal crimes also apply in this case, because this was obviously planned by a group.

"Some people were blocking port property and the port authorities asked us to move them off," said Deputy Police Chief Patrick Haw. "Police moved aggressively against crowds because some people threw rocks and big iron bolts at officers."- From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-07-oakland-protest_x.htm)

The police had warned them to cease and desist. Leading me to believe that they tried to be reasonable, and allow the protesters the chance to rethink the laws they were in violation of and avoid arrest. When they refused to move they were then in violation of 18 USC Sec. 231, interferring with law enforcement officials who are lawfully upholding their duties with respect to the civil disorder laws, especially dealing with the blocking of commercial interests.

Furthermore:

"Protests also took place Monday at the federal building in San Francisco and at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. And seven people were arrested when they temporarily blocked an exit ramp off Interstate 280 in San Francisco." - From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-07-oakland-protest_x.htm)

As you can see, by the laws that I have listed, protesters were also blocking a interstate highway. Clearly, this is an unlawful act, which goes far beyond the activity protected under the first amendment. I believe there was a conserted effort to defy law enforcement as they tried to enforce laws that protect interstate commerce, international commerce, and military supplies. One of the reasons for this behavior was to incite a riot, or a direct confrontation with the police. Since they organized using the interstate highway, cellphones, and the internet, they are in violation of 18 USC Sec. 2101.

Surely, the law grants the police the descretion to use necessary force when applicable. Nothing I have read or seen, would lead me to believe that they were out of bounds by using nonlethal weapons on the saboteurs. By breaking the laws, they are the ones who put themselves in the line of fire. By ignoring the warnings to move, and throwing bolts and rocks at the police, they are the ones who initiated the violence. It just so happens that the police were better equiped, and have the training needed to deal with such deliberate acts of aggression, on the part of the protesters. I can't say that I feel they were unjustly treated in any way. They got what they deserved, probably less.

[redstar2000]

Yes, Ghost, and when we put your counter-revolutionary ass in front of a revolutionary firing squad, we'll be sure to read the appropriate statutes to you before the order to fire is given.

In the meantime, please take your fucking fascist laws and shove them up your ass!

:cool:

[Anonymous]

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 1:01 pm on April 13, 2003
seems to me most of the soilders deaths are caused by mechanical failure or human error. I dont think a slow moving barge would make any "cease fire" and stop deaths of soilders.

(Edited by truthaddict11 at 8:03 am on April 13, 2003)


That is a nice attitude if you only consider US lives important. The faster and the more agressive you can perscute an enemy of the battle field. The quicker you can end the killing on both sides.

It is a war, taking a time out or a frapachino break will cost more lives.

How can a farmer on a tractor end the war quicker? How can a factory worker end the war the quicker? In WW2 they all delivered thier war material as fast as possible to the front. Denying soldiers any material will delay a cease fire. Schedules and time tables must be met. Any delay only prolongs hostilities. The war has been slowed down already by lack of food getting to the troops. They were down to one MRE per day. When the food was not getting out fast enough, the frontline troops had to sit and wait for the food to get to them. That is more time just sitting and waiting with a bulleye on your back.

The ship has a shedule to keep, GET OUT OF THE WAY.

(Edited by kelvin9 at 10:10 pm on April 13, 2003)

[antieverything]

I'm against the war but attempting to stop shipments of supplies to the troops is simply idiotic.

If we pulled out at that moment, things would have gotten worse and more people would have died in Iraq than would if we had remained. Chaos would break out 10x worse than it is now.

Many of the peaceful protesters who were not breaking the law, on the other hand, were also assaulted by the police and many were wrongfully arrested.

[Pete]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:05 pm on April 13, 2003
Yes, Ghost, and when we put your counter-revolutionary ass in front of a revolutionary firing squad, we'll be sure to read the appropriate statutes to you before the order to fire is given.

In the meantime, please take your fucking fascist laws and shove them up your ass!

:cool:


You beat me too it. Fuck off with your neoconservative laws.

[Dirty Commie]

One thing to say.

FUCK THE PIGS.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Dirty Commie on 10:45 pm on April 13, 2003
One thing to say.

FUCK THE PIGS.

In general I have no need for the police. I take care of me and my own just fine. Yet I still have imense respect for someone who needs body armour for a job that starts pay on average about 30,000.

[truthaddict11]

That is a nice attitude if you only consider US lives important. The faster and the more agressive you can perscute an enemy of the battle field. The quicker you can end the killing on both sides.

It is a war, taking a time out or a frapachino break will cost more lives.

How can a farmer on a tractor end the war quicker? How can a factory worker end the war the quicker? In WW2 they all delivered thier war material as fast as possible to the front. Denying soldiers any material will delay a cease fire. Schedules and time tables must be met. Any delay only prolongs hostilities. The war has been slowed down already by lack of food getting to the troops. They were down to one MRE per day. When the food was not getting out fast enough, the frontline troops had to sit and wait for the food to get to them. That is more time just sitting and waiting with a bulleye on your back.

The ship has a shedule to keep, GET OUT OF THE WAY.

(Edited by kelvin9 at 10:10 pm on April 13, 2003)


I dont think that "denying" supplies is gonna stop a "cease fire" from happing, Many of the soilders deaths were caused by thier own faults if a barge carrying bombs was delayed GOOD, less Iraqis to be killed by them. And many workers were opposed to both WW1 and 2 plus many companies got a lot done using concentration camp slave labor and supplied both the allies and nazis.

[Anonymous]

I am truely sad now, that in the face of reality that leftist would rather ignore facts for idealism and sacrafice life.

1) The war has already been delayed from the lack of supplies not getting to the front fast enough. Ammo and food was being rationed. The forward advance was halted.

2) On a modern battle field, time = death. The delay of supplies pushes back the settlement of a cease fire because you can not perscute the enemy agressively and quickly.

Go ahead and stick your head in the sand. The delay in the perscution of the the war gives the enemy time to reorganize. More Marines will die trying to take the same ground against an organized enemy versus a unorganized enemy. Every day a soldier is in a hot battle field, is another day he rolls the dice, from friendly fire and enemy fire. Time = death. The war must end quickly to save lives.

How would you like to be forced to sit in a hot battle field for an unnecessary extra day?

The delay of supplies extended the war once before. The delay of supplies again will extend the war some more. Why do you think snipers are shooting at trucks on the highway? To stop supplies from moving, the snipers in Iraq use bullets to stop supplies. Peace movement uses protesters to stop supplies. May God have mercy on your soul on your judgement day for unnecessarily extending this war.

[Ghost Writer]

Every day a soldier is in a hot battle field, is another day he rolls the dice, from friendly fire and enemy fire. Time = death. The war must end quickly to save lives.

That's exactly what they want to see, Kelvin. To them, every dead American soldier is another victory for their cause. What exactly separates them from the Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or the Fedayeen; I am not sure, as there differences diminish every time they take action.

I have a briliiant idea. Once we are done with this war in Iraq, we should move to combat the enemy within our borders. They claim that it is their freedom to try to destroy the democratic system, that they are seeking a better system. To me, their goals our obvious, and they have nothing to do with a better America. They want to tear it apart at its foundation, and they want to regress to another Stalinist nightmare, modelled by Marxism. Judging from the complete lack of understanding that these leftists have about economic principles, there is no reason to believe that their system would not repeat the poverty trends, and shortages that persisted in the "good old days" of Marxism.

[Boris Moskovitz]

Venom... That is your point of view, you don't know anything about Communism, so you should shut up. If you don't know someone, you shouldn't be afraid of that person. I can see how bad Capitalism is because I am in a Capitalist world. You, in the other hand, have nothing to talk about Communism. Sure, there were flaws in Lenin's practice of Communism, but we can fix that up, and if you don't zip it, I will hunt you down and put gum in your hair, I mean, a lot of gum!

Do you think it is necessary for me to teach you the hard way about how bad capitalism is? Here... I suggest you to spend a month in the Ghetto, that is, without all your luxury and the internet, then maybe you can learn about how hard life can really be for the less fortunate. Believe me, we do know our economic system, and you shouldn't judge about the other people like that.

Doesn't the bible say "Judge not lest ye be judged?" :biggrin:

I tell you, there is also poverty in Capitalism, maybe less, but worse poverty than in a Socialist world. I don't think 10% of the people should get 75% of the economy, that is totally unfair. You only say it'S fair because you are one of those who have the good life, I also do, you your big fat information. But I really don't mind losing most of my allowance so that some other people can be happy, I am not such a greedy person, I really don't mind.

But the democratic system just isn't too good, people waste a whole lot of time to argue, "Who is the least stupid leader?". Then the next day "Goddamnit! I should've voted for the other moron!". The thing is that when united, people can work for a better future, but when divided, the system is a total piece of crap.

But now you have convinced me, I will go in Iraq, and burn the homes, kill the children, for their freedom! ^^
Heheheh.. I love this picture, both depressive and Ironic...
http://www.politicalstrikes.com/.images/ps833.jpg

[synthesis]

Quote: from Ghost Writer on 5:22 am on April 14, 2003
I have a briliiant idea. Once we are done with this war in Iraq, we should move to combat the enemy within our borders. They claim that it is their freedom to try to destroy the democratic system, that they are seeking a better system. To me, their goals our obvious, and they have nothing to do with a better America. They want to tear it apart at its foundation, and they want to regress to another Stalinist nightmare, modelled by Marxism. Judging from the complete lack of understanding that these leftists have about economic principles, there is no reason to believe that their system would not repeat the poverty trends, and shortages that persisted in the "good old days" of Marxism.
Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

[Anonymous]

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 12:28 am on April 15, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Okay. Alright. Perhaps I got a little carried away there. I've realized it's a little too close to fascism for my tastes.

God, blueshirts.....I need to keep my daydreams to myself from now on.

[Anonymous]

Jesus..that was fucking lame. And it sounded so cool a few minutes ago.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from kelvin9 on 9:01 am on April 14, 2003
I am truely sad now, that in the face of reality that leftist would rather ignore facts for idealism and sacrafice life.

1) The war has already been delayed from the lack of supplies not getting to the front fast enough. Ammo and food was being rationed. The forward advance was halted.

2) On a modern battle field, time = death. The delay of supplies pushes back the settlement of a cease fire because you can not perscute the enemy agressively and quickly.

Go ahead and stick your head in the sand. The delay in the perscution of the the war gives the enemy time to reorganize. More Marines will die trying to take the same ground against an organized enemy versus a unorganized enemy. Every day a soldier is in a hot battle field, is another day he rolls the dice, from friendly fire and enemy fire. Time = death. The war must end quickly to save lives.

How would you like to be forced to sit in a hot battle field for an unnecessary extra day?

The delay of supplies extended the war once before. The delay of supplies again will extend the war some more. Why do you think snipers are shooting at trucks on the highway? To stop supplies from moving, the snipers in Iraq use bullets to stop supplies. Peace movement uses protesters to stop supplies. May God have mercy on your soul on your judgement day for unnecessarily extending this war.


Kelvin,

It's sad that you can't even interpret FauxNews.
The delay of getting the troops food and supplies was caused by the speed at which they moved toward Baghdad. The support divisions could not keep up with them. It had nothing to do with supply ships not getting to them. It was poor planning on the military's part.

GhostWriter, All the laws that you posted were laws directed at rioting and violent protesting. The Oakland protest was peaceful. It became violent when the cops started shooting at them. It was an unneccesary use of force. I suppose that with this line of reasoning, you can justify the Kent State incident as well right?

[StalinLover]

The solution for pig violence and world hunger:

Cochon de Lait (Roast Pig)
Yield - 150 - 200 Buffet Servings

Ingredients
1 150 - 200 LBS HEAD ON PIG (Split lengthwise, gutted)
3 CUPS GARLIC TOES (Peeled, whole)
3 BUNCHES SHALLOTS (Washed, root bottoms removed)
Dry Seasonings
4 TBSP SALT
2 TBSP BLACK PEPPER
2 TBSP GROUND CAYENNE PEPPER
2 TBSP WHITE PEPPER
6 TBSP GRANULATED GARLIC
4 TBSP SPANISH PAPRIKA
Pit
20 10’ LENGTHS OF 1/2” or 3/4” EMT CONDUIT
1 SPOOL BAILING WIRE
5’x 6’ EXPANDED METAL GRATING
LOT HARDWOOD (Pecan, Oak, Cherry or Hickory)
2 QUART COOKING OIL

Method
Cut an “X” in the pig meat with a sharp fillet knife. Stuff one or two toes garlic into each hole, then stuff a shallot into the hole. Cut the shallot at the skin line. Continue stuffing the pig in all the meaty areas until all of the garlic and shallots are used. Don’t forget to include the underside of the pig. Mix the seasonings in a stainless steel bowl and dust the pig generously. Pat the seasonings into the pig flesh.
Pit Construction
Dig a 7 foot by 8 foot pit about 12 to 18 inches deep. Cut 3-1/2 foot long pieces from the conduit,. Hammer the cut pieces into the ground, leaving about 14” to 18” sticking out of the ground. Use the bailing wire to lash the longer piece to the stakes to form a grill. Before you put the grating over the pit, wad up newspaper and other kindling and place in the bottom of the pit. Stack 20 to 25 pieces of hardwood in the pit and douse with the cooking oil. Next, place the grating on top of the pit and secure with bailing wire. Run a hose to the pit, this is a great safety measure and might come in handy if the pigs start to fire.

Cooking Method
About 14 hours before service, light the pit and allow the wood to burn down to embers. (This will take about 1 -1/2 to 2 hours.) Remove some of the glowing coals and start a breeder fire on side of the cooking pit. Add fresh hardwood to the breeder fire so that when additional coals are required they can be pulled from this fire.

The grill temperature should be very warm but not hot. A good check is to hold your hand over the grill for about 10 seconds without discomfort. If you can hold it there for any extended period than the grill is too cold. If you cannot hold it there greater than 5 seconds, the pit is too hot and the grease from the pigs will catch fire and burn the meat.

Place the pig halves skin down on the grill, ensure that no open flame is directly below the meat. Add hot embers to maintain the grill temperature. Turn the pigs about once each hour. As the pigs cook, they will drip grease into the embers and a column of smoke will rise over the pigs and give them a smoky flavor. Concentrate the embers under the shoulders and hams; these areas are thicker and require more heat for the pig to cook evenly. If a flame develops under the meat pat it out with the back end of a shovel. Sometimes a fire will start and more fire fighting measures are required, first try shoveling some dirt on top of the grease fire, or use a rake to spread out the coals. As a last resort use the hose to douse the fire. You may have to replenish embers from the breeder fire.

Smoke- roast the pig halves for 11 - 13 hours. When done the bones will literally fall from the meat.

Alternate Method
Most fresh pigs are very fatty and thus require little basting. However, some pigs come directly from the woods and are wild. For these I suggest that a butter-garlic-wine basting sauce be available during cooking. This will keep the meat moist and tender.

Plate Presentation
Serve the ribs and center section first, these are the thinner sections of the pig and are usually done first. The hams and shoulders are thicker and the meat will continue to cook internally.

Serve with whatever side you want.

[redstar2000]

Strange Quotes...

"May God have mercy on your soul..." -- kelvin9

Why? If you believe what you say about how "bad" we are, shouldn't you want "God" to cast our "souls" into the fiery pit?

"Che would have shot all of you" -- StalinLover

Well, he didn't shoot me and he had his chance.

:cool:

[abstractmentality]

To those that believe that the protest was violent:
my friends that were there told me, in seperate talks, that nobody was violent (that they saw) and the only thing close to "violence" was somebody threw the reminents of a concuscion grenade back at the police, obviously after they had already been shot at. look at the videos on indymedia, they dont show anything close to violence on the part of the protestors. if any of you have been to a protest where things can get out of hand, you would know that when a police officer is even remotley close to being "endangered," they will use brute force to stop that. i have seen this happen, and seen it happen a few times when they werent even being "endangered." now, if the protestors were throwing "rocks and big iron bolts at officers," then the police in oakland (a harsh police force) would have used violence to suppress that activity immediatley. however, this is not what you see in the video.

the quote from Ghostwriter is out of context, to a certain extent. the quote about the protestors throwing this stuff comes from a police officer. early in the article it also says that they "allegedly threw rocks and bolts." it also goes on to say that they will "evaluate the officers' tactics," considering that people were directly aimed at with things that are supposed to hit the ground first. it also goes on to quote a longshoremen there saying that "[a]ll of that force wasn't necessary."

(Edited by abstractmentality at 1:51 pm on April 14, 2003)

[antieverything]

Can we get this video? I'd love to show it to some people on other message boards.

[abstractmentality]

the video is on the san francisco indymedia (http://www.sf.indymedia.org) website. there are actually a few different ones. if you cant find it, or have difficulty viewing it or downloading it, feel free to contact me and ill get them to you.

[Ghost Writer]

I posted a copy of my original post in indymedia.com. It will be interesting to see what kind of a response that I get.

[MARX MAN]

I think that people who dont think attacking peaceful protestors in the street in the worlds most thriving "Democrasy" is wrong should, well i dont know, become minister for Police or Health for Bush.

[Ghost Writer]

I wouldn't expect a mentally disabled left winger to understand the difference between a peaceful protester and a criminal.

[Boris Moskovitz]

And I wouldn't expect a mentally owned right winger to understand the difference between what the censors say and what the people say.

[Anonymous]

I have no doubt the protest was non violent. I have no doubt that the police behaved like gorillas. That is the definition of riot police, when they are called up, they are paid to bust heads. Pure and simple. What did you expect? A tea party?

[StalinLover]

Quote: from kelvin9 on 2:00 am on April 16, 2003
I have no doubt the protest was non violent. I have no doubt that the police behaved like gorillas. That is the definition of riot police, when they are called up, they are paid to bust heads. Pure and simple. What did you expect? A tea party?

Exactly. Fucking liberals. Can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Or at least fucking prepare. USA lefties are such fucking cry babies.

In lat am, we fucking pull people out of police cars to the point they no longer make arrests most of the time... they just shoot and shoot until atrition sets in. ANd then we rest and go get some more. So do the Palestinians. Rubber bullets? Fucking crybabies...

[abstractmentality]

haha, stalin lover.

just because you go through what you do for organizing doesnt make it ok for us to be shot with rubber bullets. yes, if you do indeed organize and protest in latin america, i give you much respect, just as i give the anti-war protestors in Egypt much respect. but the fact remains that just because you are having to go through what you have to in order to organize, doesnt mean that we should be content with the brutalizing we have to go through. yes, ours may not be as bad as yours, but does that make it ok for it to happen here? no. your attitude to the protestors here does nothing productive, and is rather counter-productive in the cause as a whole. your attitude towards US protestors does nothing more than create divisions in places that do not need divisions. these are global causes, and your attitude does nothing but impede the global movement.

[StalinLover]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 6:00 am on April 16, 2003
but the fact remains that just because you are having to go through what you have to in order to organize, doesnt mean that we should be content with the brutalizing we have to go through.

Of course not, you don't have to be content. Just don't get mad, get even.

But of course, what to expect from a left thinks killing people is wrong and clamors for the state to BAN guns... hahahahahaha...

Bowling for Columbine? load of crappola...

get the point?

[abstractmentality]

ok, when did i ever say that i do not agree with killing people and wanted to ban guns? although i am advocate of abolishing the death penalty, i dont really remember saying that on this board.

i understand your point of "get[ting] even," but i personally dont think that will solve anything in the numbers we have here right now.

[StalinLover]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 8:51 am on April 16, 2003
ok, when did i ever say that i do not agree with killing people and wanted to ban guns? although i am advocate of abolishing the death penalty, i dont really remember saying that on this board.

i understand your point of "get[ting] even," but i personally dont think that will solve anything in the numbers we have here right now.

1) I was talking in general, but not to you directly. I don't know you at all.

2) Size is always a good excuse. In colombia, most people are anti-leftists, yet the FARC/ELN are the defacto goverment in almost half of the country AND only have someting like 25,000 people in their armies. ANd a good chunk are logistic and security people, not actual grunts. Even so, since colombia has about 41,000,000 people, thats like around 125,000 people in the USA. Thats half the biggest DC demo. Thats not the problem. The problem is that all the rednecks have the guns, while most of the left clamors the state to ban guns AND aplauds shit like "Bowling For COlumbine". Man, at least the militias answer abuse with fire... not tears...

[redstar2000]

StalinLover, why are you talking to us as if you were an agent provocateur?

:cool: