vandalism---what do you think?

[danyboy27]

what do you think about the vandalism of electoral panel?
do you think its actually helping the left in any way?

[Killfacer]

No, but i don't think that electoral panels effect the way in which people vote in the first place.

I mean who goes: "Hmm, im going to vote labour. Actually look, there is a conservative poster. I will vote conservative now."

On the other hand, it can be enjoyable. Gives you a sense that at least your doing something, even if it is blowing your own foot off.

[danyboy27]

No, but i don't think that electoral panels effect the way in which people vote in the first place.

I mean who goes: "Hmm, im going to vote labour. Actually look, there is a conservative poster. I will vote conservative now."

On the other hand, it can be enjoyable. Gives you a sense that at least your doing something, even if it is blowing your own foot off.

There is a rage of destruction fo the conservative party panels in my city, that creazy, peoples writting nazi and smashing them, writting bush and writting nazi mustaches.

has i mentionned earlier in one of my post, all this shit will do is.....
you know the rest.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

No. I'm very skeptical about vandalism, except if one is able to lift from the state and/or major corporations in a way that befits Robin Hood or V. ;)

[Demogorgon]

I think people like to delude themselves when it comes to vandalism. Ninety Nine times out of a hundred it doesn't do anything except make you look immature. It actively harms the left to do it.

Mind you, there are certain instances where it can have positive effect. Defacing election posters in such a way that it draws attention to the particular flaws of whoever the poster is meant to back (a classic example would be spraying pound signs on Neil Hamilton's posters) it can hurt whoever put the poster up in the first place. But simply damaging it for the sake of it is pointless and even harmful.

[PigmerikanMao]

Although Vandalism isn't necessarily a pivotal campaign against the right and other capitalist advocates, it does more help than harm.

[pusher robot]

Although Vandalism isn't necessarily a pivotal campaign against the right and other capitalist advocates, it does more help than harm.

How do you reason so?

[danyboy27]

i strongly think vandalism in that particular case do the opposite!

all it show is the left is affraid and result of cheap tactics to get the other side hated, its also show a lack of respect for people not having the same opinion.

the good thing to do would be: distribute flyers and put electoral panel promoting the left vote rather than denigrating the right wing vote.

that pure psychology.

[Rascolnikova]

No, but i don't think that electoral panels effect the way in which people vote in the first place.

I mean who goes: "Hmm, im going to vote labour. Actually look, there is a conservative poster. I will vote conservative now."

On the other hand, it can be enjoyable. Gives you a sense that at least your doing something, even if it is blowing your own foot off.

Yes, clearly trillions of dollars are spent on advertising because Nobody does That.


PR is essential, especially given the signal/noise ratio problem of our time. If you can vandalize in a way that will actually make your ideas come off as smarter, cooler, more reasonable, and Better than the other side, go for it.

One of my favorite examples is putting extremely adhesive stickers on atms in shopping malls that say "enjoy debt" and "forget sweatshop labor."

If you are just vandalizing to destroy valuable property, that's a different argument and clearly depends on what property, who it belongs to, and what they use it for. . . and it also depends on the place of that vandalism in a wider movement.

Edit: also, when considering how your vandalism will appear, it is important to consider audience.

Another favorite: above the doors of my HS, "work will make you free."

[apathy maybe]

I support vandalism against state and capitalist property. I don't support vandalism against working class property (e.g. houses (unless they are in a rich neighbourhood).


While it may do little, so long as the target is chosen correctly (i.e. not poor person's place, car, or whatever), then I see no left-wing reason not to do it.

Claims of "harm" to the movement are generally over stated due to the fact that the revolutionary movement is not taken seriously anyway, and in times of stress and crisis (when people start looking at "extreme" options), vandalism (especially street art) goes up anyway.

Basically, it doesn't do any harm to the movement, and may well do some good. It does harm the target, and who can complain if a cop car gets torched, parking meters get glued or similar?

[Incendiarism]

Only if it's sharp and polemical or kick ass like this one:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/2294969442_64dfc9a87a.jpg?v=0

[Armand Iskra]

Vandalism is also the arm of Parliamentary Struggle. The use of the paint, along with the use of the voice intensifies the call for revolutionary change (like against capitalism, imperialism, and feudalism). There is nothing wrong in speaking grievances against the government or its particular subject, in spite of its negative contrast.

[communard resolution]

I support vandalism against state and capitalist property. I don't support vandalism against working class property (e.g. houses (unless they are in a rich neighbourhood).



I don't understand you. You support vandalism against the little public property there is, but not against private property?

[Bud Struggle]

Only if it's sharp and polemical or kick ass like this one:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/2294969442_64dfc9a87a.jpg?v=0

What's a Fnord? :confused::confused::confused::huh:

[Killfacer]

Yes, clearly trillions of dollars are spent on advertising because Nobody does That.


PR is essential, especially given the signal/noise ratio problem of our time. If you can vandalize in a way that will actually make your ideas come off as smarter, cooler, more reasonable, and Better than the other side, go for it.

One of my favorite examples is putting extremely adhesive stickers on atms in shopping malls that say "enjoy debt" and "forget sweatshop labor."

If you are just vandalizing to destroy valuable property, that's a different argument and clearly depends on what property, who it belongs to, and what they use it for. . . and it also depends on the place of that vandalism in a wider movement.

Edit: also, when considering how your vandalism will appear, it is important to consider audience.

Another favorite: above the doors of my HS, "work will make you free."

Here in merry old Enland, the most PR put up is a peice of blue card with conservative written on it. I hope that did not cost the conservatives trillions. I guess in America they do all those weird attack adds and shit.

[Incendiarism]

What's a Fnord? :confused::confused::confused::huh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord

[apathy maybe]

I don't understand you. You support vandalism against the little public property there is, but not against private property?

Cop cars, cop shops, parliament and similar are all examples of state property (not being used in the Marxist sense...) that I would have no problem with folks attacking. (I actually would object to libraries being attacked.)

I said I would object to private homes being attacked, unless they were in a rich neighbourhood. I don't object to businesses (McDonalds comes to mind for some reason :lol::cool:) being targeted.

[pusher robot]

Cop cars, cop shops, parliament and similar are all examples of state property (not being used in the Marxist sense...) that I would have no problem with folks attacking. (I actually would object to libraries being attacked.)

I said I would object to private homes being attacked, unless they were in a rich neighbourhood. I don't object to businesses (McDonalds comes to mind for some reason :lol::cool:) being targeted.

Are you saying you don't object from a theoretical standpoint or a practical one?

[apathy maybe]

Are you saying you don't object from a theoretical standpoint or a practical one?

Well, both.

Practically, you aren't going to bring someone to your side by smashing their car window or scrawling stuff on their wall...

Theoretically, it's a question of who is the oppressors? and I think you could agree that the lower classes in any society aren't doing much oppressing.

[Rascolnikova]

Here in merry old Enland, the most PR put up is a peice of blue card with conservative written on it. I hope that did not cost the conservatives trillions. I guess in America they do all those weird attack adds and shit.


As it's used here, the term PR refers to everything that's done to influence public opinion--all types of advertising--for any product or idea. It includes "viral" advertising, "opinion" pieces, "news" pieces, etc.

[danyboy27]

Cop cars, cop shops, parliament and similar are all examples of state property (not being used in the Marxist sense...) that I would have no problem with folks attacking. (I actually would object to libraries being attacked.)

I said I would object to private homes being attacked, unless they were in a rich neighbourhood. I don't object to businesses (McDonalds comes to mind for some reason :lol::cool:) being targeted.

why damage it when you can just make the politics changes and give it back to the peoples? why dont you advicate that instead of breaking thoser thing the people feel they paid for by taxes??

[Rascolnikova]

why damage it when you can just make the politics changes and give it back to the peoples? why dont you advicate that instead of breaking thoser thing the people feel they paid for by taxes??

yes. . . a favorite quote to bear in mind, "wast is violence against nature"--and also violence against the value embodied in an object by the labor of it's creation.

just a thing not to forget.

[apathy maybe]

why damage it when you can just make the politics changes and give it back to the peoples? why dont you advicate that instead of breaking thoser thing the people feel they paid for by taxes??

Err, so you have a timetable for the revolution? I can mark on my calendar 12 December 2012, "Revolution, politics will change, and people will get what they paid for back"?

Yeah well, I do advocate for anarchism. Part of that advocacy is street art. Damage to the oppressors is a part of the "advocacy" for change. (Hint: Voting won't work.)

As for taxes, well, maybe if people didn't pay their taxes we wouldn't have a state to fight against...

[Ken]

so you dont pay any taxes or work?

[apathy maybe]

so you dont pay any taxes or work?

Every one who buys things or interacts with society pays taxes. In Australia it's the GST on most items, where I am currently, there is a tax on all items (including food).

I don't (at the moment) pay tax on what I'm getting from my work though.

[Ken]

are you advocating that we shouldnt pay taxes so there is no state to fight against?

[freakazoid]

That could be one tactic. Of course it should be noted that you don't only use one tactic.

[Ken]

so people should not work? and steal? because working and paying taxes is supporting the government right?



As for taxes, well, maybe if people didn't pay their taxes we wouldn't have a state to fight against...

i caught you out on it and i want to know if this is a pragmatic idea and method... or if its just the usual carefree anarchist crap.

[Jazzratt]

What's a Fnord? :confused::confused::confused::huh:

You are not cleared for that information.

[freakazoid]

so people should not work? and steal? because working and paying taxes is supporting the government right?

Read:

That could be one tactic. Of course it should be noted that you don't only use one tactic.

[Ken]

should i not work and steal so that i can help bring anarchism?

[Bud Struggle]

should i not work and steal so that i can help bring anarchism?

One of the reasons these Commies suck--they make you rethink your beliefs about what it means to work and what it means to steal.

And rethinking is a pain in the ass. :(

[freakazoid]

should i not work and steal so that i can help bring anarchism?

Depending on the situation. There are many things that can be done.


And rethinking is a pain in the ass. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/sad.gif

lol. I have faith in ya, :thumbup:

[Dr Mindbender]

are you advocating that we shouldnt pay taxes so there is no state to fight against?
not paying taxes screws our public services as well as the state.

I'm sure not even anarchists would advocate that.

[Dr Mindbender]

One of the reasons these Commies suck--they make you rethink your beliefs about what it means to work and what it means to steal.

And rethinking is a pain in the ass. :(

true. If you subscribe to the Labour theory of value the beourgiose steal almost every moment of their lives.

[Rascolnikova]

not paying taxes screws our public services as well as the state.

I'm sure not even anarchists would advocate that.

My state spends most of my taxes bombing people.

Under that rationale, I'd rather donate the money directly to organizations that do a decent job providing public services--the libraries, free clinics, some schools, non-profits that I think would still do a great job in a post-revolutionary world.

[pusher robot]

My state spends most of my taxes bombing people.

Under that rationale, I'd rather donate the money directly to organizations that do a decent job providing public services--the libraries, free clinics, some schools, non-profits that I think would still do a great job in a post-revolutionary world.

Really? Where do you live?

[Jazzratt]

I'm sure not even anarchists would advocate that.

The worryingly popular individualist school is, I believe, a firm opponent of taxes (also just about anything leftist) - but generally you're right. Class struggle anarchists are well aware of the necessity and utility of taxes in a capitalist paradigm. Certainly we don't use stupid hyperbole (like calling them "slavery").

[apathy maybe]

not paying taxes screws our public services as well as the state.

I'm sure not even anarchists would advocate that.
Actually, I would advocate not paying taxes if I thought it would be meaningful (I advocate not voting, but the consequences for individuals are a heck of a lot less, not to mention, income tax tends to be automatic).

The fact is, your taxes are paying for more then just "public services" like hospitals, schools and all those good things. They also pay for the police, military, jails etc., all those bad things.

Of course, when I say "don't pay your taxes", I'm not talking to the rich. But then again, I've got a problem. If there is going to be a state anyway, I support it providing public services (mainly because, otherwise these services wouldn't be provided), but I would much rather there be local community provided services, not paid for by state taxes...

In conclusion, anarchists who want public services are in a difficult position.


The worryingly popular individualist school is, I believe, a firm opponent of taxes (also just about anything leftist) - but generally you're right. Class struggle anarchists are well aware of the necessity and utility of taxes in a capitalist paradigm. Certainly we don't use stupid hyperbole (like calling them "slavery").
I don't know if individualist anarchism is nearly as popular as you think.

But, it is not just them who are opposed to taxes. All anarchists, by virtue of being opposed to the state, are opposed to taxes. What anarchists (at least, most of them) are for (as I said above), is public services. Which, unfortunately in this system, are provided by taxes.

But just like I would rather have a Food Not Bombs providing food to folks then the Salvation Army, I would also much rather local communities provide basic health care, rather then the state. (And I would much rather have anarchy, and while I'm dreaming, can I have a pony?)

As I said, social anarchists (including me), are in a difficult position vis-à-vis the state.

[communard resolution]

Yeah well, I do advocate for anarchism. Part of that advocacy is street art. Damage to the oppressors is a part of the "advocacy" for change. (Hint: Voting won't work.)


Street art is not damage, it's just authentic folk culture. I don't think anyone on here would argue with that.

[apathy maybe]

Street art is not damage, it's just authentic folk culture. I don't think anyone on here would argue with that.

I also don't have a problem with putting bricks through bank windows, gluing up parking meters etc... ;) :thumbup1:

[communard resolution]

I also don't have a problem with putting bricks through bank windows

I wouldn't try and stop you from doing it if I stood nearby, but I would wonder about the point in doing that. Window gone - insurance company pays - voila: new window.


gluing up parking meters etc... ;) :thumbup1:

This is at least something constructive that has a direct positive effect for those of us who own a car.

[pusher robot]

I wouldn't try and stop you from doing it if I stood nearby, but I would wonder about the point in doing that. Window gone - insurance company pays - voila: new window.



This is at least something constructive that has a direct positive effect for those of us who own a car.

No it doesn't, they'll write a ticket anyways for parking by an expired meter. Sure you can go to court and challenge the ticket, if you take a day off work and lose a days pay or a vacation day. Either way, you're stuck paying the fine, losing a day's pay, or losing a day of vacation. Then they'll raise vehicle taxes to replace the meters and put up security cameras to monitor everyone who goes near them. Yeah, real constructive.

[apathy maybe]

I wouldn't try and stop you from doing it if I stood nearby, but I would wonder about the point in doing that. Window gone - insurance company pays - voila: new window.

insurance premiums go up, insurance company is still out of pocket, and so, soon, the bank will as well.


This is at least something constructive that has a direct positive effect for those of us who own a car.
Yeah, that too. As well as directly impacting upon a source of revenue for cops. (Depending on where the action is of course.)

No it doesn't, they'll write a ticket anyways for parking by an expired meter. Sure you can go to court and challenge the ticket, if you take a day off work and lose a days pay or a vacation day. Either way, you're stuck paying the fine, losing a day's pay, or losing a day of vacation. Then they'll raise vehicle taxes to replace the meters and put up security cameras to monitor everyone who goes near them. Yeah, real constructive.
OK, your jurisdiction may vary, maybe they take you to court for parking at an expired meter, maybe not. Maybe you lose a days pay, maybe you live in a country that doesn't let bosses do that.

They put up security cameras, and they are out of pocket. Suits me. And considering how easy it is to wear a ski mask (I have a full face mask), and how little time it takes to squirt glue in a lock... Oh, and they would have to have a lot of cameras to cover all the meters. And the doors of businesses. And ATMs (though they have these anyway in many places). And doors of government officers.

Maybe you don't realise how easy it is to glue locks up.


----

Oh yeah, the best thing about vandalism? It can be a shit load of fun if done correctly.

[pusher robot]

They put up security cameras, and they are out of pocket. Suits me. And considering how easy it is to wear a ski mask (I have a full face mask), and how little time it takes to squirt glue in a lock...

Of course you don't care, because the concerns of ordinary people doing ordinary, law-abiding things apparently have zero importance to you. My concern with proliferating cameras has nothing to do with the abilities of vandals to commit vandalism, it has to do with my simply not wanting to be on surveillance every minute of the day. I suppose that's very reactionary of me.



Maybe you don't realise how easy it is to glue locks up.


Oh, no, I know, because I've had to deal with it before.


Oh yeah, the best thing about vandalism? It can be a shit load of fun if done correctly.

Oh yeah, nothing brings a community together like pointless destruction and waste. I always remember what a blast I had cleaning the paint off my car after some fun-loving lad decided it was just so hilarious to deface a 1984 Toyota Tercel.

And when that bank you've been smashing the shit out of decides it's no longer profitable to operate in that neighborhood and closes it's branch? Woohoo! Now we don't have a bank in our neighborhood! Barrel of laughs for everyone! Maybe next you can work on driving out the grocery stores, and then, just for grins, the restaurants. That would be a riot!

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Oh yeah, the best thing about vandalism? It can be a shit load of fun if done correctly.
I think vandalism is most fun when done in working class neighbourhoods, because the poor buggers can't afford to fix the damage. ;)

[Trystan]

I was actually arrested for vandalism once. I can't remember any of it, but I may well have been full of revolutionary fervour at the time. Not that I think it matters either way.

[Bud Struggle]

I think vandalism is most fun when done in working class neighbourhoods, because the poor buggers can't afford to fix the damage. ;)

Now you are getting it! For the most part you Commies are children when it comes to vandalism.

Here's how it's done right: you find a poor neighborhood, you buy some land cheep and put up a chemical factory and then SPEW carcinogenic fumes all over the place. You want to put that little something exta in the water supply, just for laughs. It will make the homes people saved all their lives worthless and maybe even kill a few of those poor bastards, too.

It's all a matter of how you look at it. :rolleyes:

[The Intransigent Faction]

Now this is how vandalism should be done! :P
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_27622.aspx

[Rascolnikova]

Now this is how vandalism should be done! :P
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_27622.aspx


I have to say, if you're a liberal with no scruples at all, it generates an impressive sympathy piece.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I have to say, if you're a liberal with no scruples at all, it generates an impressive sympathy piece.

True, true, it does backfire.

[danyboy27]

Now this is how vandalism should be done! :P
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_27622.aspx

its not vandalism, its a murder attempt.

[The Intransigent Faction]

its not vandalism, its a murder attempt.

No kidding..

[The Intransigent Faction]

its not vandalism, its a murder attempt.

No kidding..(by the way I was trying to be sarcastic):confused:.