Prison is Slavery.

[dmcauliffe09]

I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine about the prison-industrial system, and afterwards I felt the need to educate myself even further. We are all aware that black males make up the majority of the prison population, followed closely by Latino males. But we don't really look at what this means in societal terms.

]1) First of all, many prisoners are in jail for some felony. Most likely, they were convicted of some prior offence and became true "criminals" after they were placed in prison. Because felons cannot vote, and because most felons are minorities, that is a significant portion of the minority population that cannot vote. All of Puff Daddy's "Vote or Die" campaigning in the ghetto is useless when we consider how many people in the ghetto CANNOT vote.

2) Secondly, prison should be about rehabilitation instead of punishment, because punishment generally doesn't make someone better. If your parent slapped you as a child when you were young, did you really stop misbehaving? People like employers know that prison is supposed to rehabilitate, yet they don't hire felons. Obviously, they know prison doesn't work, which is evident through their reluctance of hiring someone out of fear they might again commit a crime. This leads to a high percentage of minorities not only being barred from voting, but also from being employed.

3) Most prisoners are convicted of nonviolent crimes like drug posession or theft. Certain people deserve to be in prison, like the rapist and the murderer. And they deserve long sentences. But the marijuana dealer shouldn't get 5 years in PRISON for selling weed. All that does is WORSEN the person, turning an individual who may have made a few mistakes into someone who will most likely be locked up on some more serious charge. The lengthy sentences in the U.S. are what make us have the world's highest incarceration rate, higher than even China, whose population is five times that of the U.S. (ironic when you think about it, since China is such an "evil communist nation" in which the people have "no rights").

4) Looking at prisons, we see a form of slavery that is defended under the 13th Amendment. Basically, it says that you can't be forced to work unless that work is punishment for a crime. This means that servitude is forced upon criminals and they are forced to comply. Now, we also have to realize that these criminals receive little to no pay, and they are being exploited by big businesses, who use their labor in order to produce goods. I'm sure Marx wasn't referring to prisons when he talked about bourgeoisie corruption and oppression, but that corruption and oppression is so obviously taking place in American "rehabilitation" centers. In prisons.

Like I said, I think that some people deserve to be in prison, but the people who go in for minor offences come out full-blown criminals who cannot vote or find work. So what can they do but turn to crime? And this will get them locked right back up. And the reason they went in for minor offences in the first place was most likely due to some economic crisis in the neighborhood in which they lived. It's a vicious cycle that we need to reexamine from the roots.

[joseph_kay]

So, if i understand correctly, you believe that prisons should exist, we should just reform the justice system so that only those who commit more serious crimes are incarcerated?


Who, in your opinion, should be the one to decide who goes to prison and how long they stay there.

also, how would you change prisons to make the focus be on rehabilitation instead of punishment?

[bretty]

I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine about the prison-industrial system, and afterwards I felt the need to educate myself even further. We are all aware that black males make up the majority of the prison population, followed closely by Latino males. But we don't really look at what this means in societal terms.

]1) First of all, many prisoners are in jail for some felony. Most likely, they were convicted of some prior offence and became true "criminals" after they were placed in prison. Because felons cannot vote, and because most felons are minorities, that is a significant portion of the minority population that cannot vote. All of Puff Daddy's "Vote or Die" campaigning in the ghetto is useless when we consider how many people in the ghetto CANNOT vote.

2) Secondly, prison should be about rehabilitation instead of punishment, because punishment generally doesn't make someone better. If your parent slapped you as a child when you were young, did you really stop misbehaving? People like employers know that prison is supposed to rehabilitate, yet they don't hire felons. Obviously, they know prison doesn't work, which is evident through their reluctance of hiring someone out of fear they might again commit a crime. This leads to a high percentage of minorities not only being barred from voting, but also from being employed.

3) Most prisoners are convicted of nonviolent crimes like drug posession or theft. Certain people deserve to be in prison, like the rapist and the murderer. And they deserve long sentences. But the marijuana dealer shouldn't get 5 years in PRISON for selling weed. All that does is WORSEN the person, turning an individual who may have made a few mistakes into someone who will most likely be locked up on some more serious charge. The lengthy sentences in the U.S. are what make us have the world's highest incarceration rate, higher than even China, whose population is five times that of the U.S. (ironic when you think about it, since China is such an "evil communist nation" in which the people have "no rights").

4) Looking at prisons, we see a form of slavery that is defended under the 13th Amendment. Basically, it says that you can't be forced to work unless that work is punishment for a crime. This means that servitude is forced upon criminals and they are forced to comply. Now, we also have to realize that these criminals receive little to no pay, and they are being exploited by big businesses, who use their labor in order to produce goods. I'm sure Marx wasn't referring to prisons when he talked about bourgeoisie corruption and oppression, but that corruption and oppression is so obviously taking place in American "rehabilitation" centers. In prisons.

Like I said, I think that some people deserve to be in prison, but the people who go in for minor offences come out full-blown criminals who cannot vote or find work. So what can they do but turn to crime? And this will get them locked right back up. And the reason they went in for minor offences in the first place was most likely due to some economic crisis in the neighborhood in which they lived. It's a vicious cycle that we need to reexamine from the roots.

I agree that the prison systems need reform, however I think a lot of the causes of crime are systemic (most would agree here) and the prison system won't be able to prevent crimes. However I do agree with you on the points you make in general.

[bayano]

There's a lot more to it than this, if you keep digging. Though your numbers are off. The current incarcerated population in the United States is about 2.2 million. The numbers are almost 50% Black 25% Latino 25% white. Numbers of incarcerated Black males are not followed closesly by Latino males. Remember, a lot of times they just deport us (or incarcerate us then deport us) while they can't do that to Black men.

Further, there were two periods of steep increase in the numbers who were incarcerated. During and just after Reconstruction (i.e. after non-penal slavery had been abolished) and again beginning in the 1960s and continuing to today. That is, beginning during the rise of Black radicalism.

Also, you're confusing incarceration rate. The United States has the highest incarceration rate, which means highest number of prisoners to 100,000 people in the country. You should be comparing that to, say, Singapore, North Korea, Israel, or El Salvador. The US also has the biggest incarcerated population, which is the number of people in jails or prison at the moment, and that has been higher than those of China, Russia, or India for many years now. That doesn't even include the millions out on parole or probation, many with ankle bracelets.

But, on the China tip (and I'm no anti-China protester), they execute a shit ton more people than the US does, so it is a little hard to compare the two.

But this is an issue that the left needs to talk about more, because it has such a pervasive impact on so many communities, is so tied in to the rest of the system, and frankly, Christian/NOI groups are far more present at helping former prisoners re-adapt than the left is.

[dmcauliffe09]

There's a lot more to it than this, if you keep digging. Though your numbers are off. The current incarcerated population in the United States is about 2.2 million. The numbers are almost 50% Black 25% Latino 25% white. Numbers of incarcerated Black males are not followed closesly by Latino males. Remember, a lot of times they just deport us (or incarcerate us then deport us) while they can't do that to Black men.

Further, there were two periods of steep increase in the numbers who were incarcerated. During and just after Reconstruction (i.e. after non-penal slavery had been abolished) and again beginning in the 1960s and continuing to today. That is, beginning during the rise of Black radicalism.

Also, you're confusing incarceration rate. The United States has the highest incarceration rate, which means highest number of prisoners to 100,000 people in the country. You should be comparing that to, say, Singapore, North Korea, Israel, or El Salvador. The US also has the biggest incarcerated population, which is the number of people in jails or prison at the moment, and that has been higher than those of China, Russia, or India for many years now. That doesn't even include the millions out on parole or probation, many with ankle bracelets.

But, on the China tip (and I'm no anti-China protester), they execute a shit ton more people than the US does, so it is a little hard to compare the two.

But this is an issue that the left needs to talk about more, because it has such a pervasive impact on so many communities, is so tied in to the rest of the system, and frankly, Christian/NOI groups are far more present at helping former prisoners re-adapt than the left is.
7.2 million people were either in prison or on parole/probation in 2006. Of those, over 2 million were actually in prison. Regarrding your comment about Latinos, 27% of the incarcerated population is made up of people who aren't citizens, the majority of whom I'm assuming are Latino males. Also, I guess "closely follwed" was the wrong thing to say. I meant that the majority of people who are in jail are black males and Latino males.

[dmcauliffe09]

So, if i understand correctly, you believe that prisons should exist, we should just reform the justice system so that only those who commit more serious crimes are incarcerated?


Who, in your opinion, should be the one to decide who goes to prison and how long they stay there.

also, how would you change prisons to make the focus be on rehabilitation instead of punishment?
Prisons should exist, but people who go in for crimes that aren't serious like marijuana possession shouldn't go in for so long, because that will most likely lead to them becoming even more criminal. As far as who decides, I can't answer, because I don't really know who should be responsible for that (the people or a judge?). And changing prisons to focus more on rehabilitation cannot be done overnight, especially in the U.S., whose whole infastructure is based on punishment instead of help.

[JorgeLobo]

The original poster was typically sophomoric. If folks were so easily rehabilitated, they would be and I'd like to know the big companies that use prison labor to make products.

Other posters provide some good perspective of the population and dynamics. I sure appreciate the information but I haven't a clue as to what society might do about it - I'm not even sure what the objective of action might be - to reduce generally or among certain racial groups the prison population without jeopardizing the larger population? to convert prisoners to law abiding citizens?

From this safe distance - the bottom line for me is that prison folks by and large were aware of the risks involved in actions that resulted in their incarceration. Unless drug sales/use is seen as political, the population of political prisoners in the states is prob de minimus.

[joseph_kay]

Prisons should exist, but people who go in for crimes that aren't serious like marijuana possession shouldn't go in for so long, because that will most likely lead to them becoming even more criminal. As far as who decides, I can't answer, because I don't really know who should be responsible for that (the people or a judge?). And changing prisons to focus more on rehabilitation cannot be done overnight, especially in the U.S., whose whole infastructure is based on punishment instead of help.

I would be interested in what your conclusions would be if you were forced to create a justice system which includes prisons.
I asked the questions i did because i believe in prison abolition, not reform. I think putting someone in a cage is going to be very hard to justify. and a society where certain members are able to place other members of that society into a cage cannot be a just or equal society.
i also dont think you can reform a prison system to make it humane or rehabilitory.

If you disagree, i would like to hear how you would create prisons which were based on rehabilitation and not punishment.

[JorgeLobo]

Doubt folks would disagree with what you think should be. It obviously is not what is.

You have any thoughts about whether the sun should come up tomorrow?

[joseph_kay]

The original poster was typically sophomoric. If folks were so easily rehabilitated, they would be and I'd like to know the big companies that use prison labor to make products.

Other posters provide some good perspective of the population and dynamics. I sure appreciate the information but I haven't a clue as to what society might do about it - I'm not even sure what the objective of action might be - to reduce generally or among certain racial groups the prison population without jeopardizing the larger population? to convert prisoners to law abiding citizens?

From this safe distance - the bottom line for me is that prison folks by and large were aware of the risks involved in actions that resulted in their incarceration. Unless drug sales/use is seen as political, the population of political prisoners in the states is prob de minimus.

Are you saying that it is fine for prisoners to be in prison because they were aware of what would happen to them if they were caught breaking the laws of the capistalist state that they live under?

also, of course imprisonment of those who sell or use drugs is political. all prisoners are political in the sense that the state uses prisons are a political tool to keep the population in line. the prison system is a constant threat against dissent of any sort.

[JorgeLobo]

Not sure if you have problems reading and comprehending or more likely find it easier to obtusely set up straw men when you've no real point to make. This is flawed logic and also a bit dishonest.
I'll repeat - now please pay attention. I said "...prison folks by and large were aware of the risks involved in actions that resulted in their incarceration. " Where in that do you see "fine" or a value judgement of any kind or the word "capitalist" or any reference to the society involved?

Please explain how drug sales as a substantial source of prison population is "political" as in political crime esp. vs. an economic one. You take a poll of those so incarcerated?
At least in the US, prison is generally not a threat to most or sad little guys like you wouldn't be posting your sophomoric silliness.

[bayano]

I'd like to know the big companies that use prison labor to make products.



doesnt this guy belong in OI? no, youre the sophomoric poster, the original poster had it right. among the hundreds of huge companies who use US prison labor (they have a conference every year): allstate, twa, victoria's secret, microsoft, marriot-sodexho, a georgia recycling plant, honda, chevron, ibm, motorola, compaq, honeywell, boeing.

and the prison workers usually receive under $1 an hour (before deductions)

[joseph_kay]

Not sure if you have problems reading and comprehending or more likely find it easier to obtusely set up straw men when you've no real point to make. This is flawed logic and also a bit dishonest.
I'll repeat - now please pay attention. I said "...prison folks by and large were aware of the risks involved in actions that resulted in their incarceration. " Where in that do you see "fine" or a value judgement of any kind or the word "capitalist" or any reference to the society involved?



ok, so what is your point when you say that more knew what the risks were when they took the action that led to their incarciration?
I assumed that by this statment you were saying that they knew the risks, and therefore it is not really an issue that they are in prison. if i was wrong, please help me understand what you are saying when you say "the bottom line for me is that prison folks by and large were aware of the risks involved in actions that resulted in their incarceration."





Please explain how drug sales as a substantial source of prison population is "political" as in political crime esp. vs. an economic one. You take a poll of those so incarcerated?
At least in the US, prison is generally not a threat to most or sad little guys like you wouldn't be posting your sophomoric silliness.
i agree that most folks in prison did not commit crimes which were meant to change the power structure in society.

but because of the political system under which they live in, their act none the less can be seen as political. once again, the prison system is a political tool used by those in power to keep a hold on power. those who are victims of the prison system become political, not because of what they did (drugs, whatever) but because of the reaction of the state.

i dont think im explaining myself too well. but look, abortion tends to be looked on as a political issue, where are drugs often arnt, so allow me use abortion as an example instead of drugs.
if abortion is illegal, and a woman is imprisoned for having a back alley abortion, i would consider her to be a political prisoner. sure, having an abortion wasnt meant to change society, but because the government has outlawed abortion, and use prison as a political threat to keep others from having abortions, her case becomes political.

does that make sense?

social prisoners such as drug users might not have been trying to do anything political, but because of the governments response to their actions, their cases do become political.

[spice756]

doesnt this guy belong in OI? no, youre the sophomoric poster, the original poster had it right. among the hundreds of huge companies who use US prison labor (they have a conference every year): allstate, twa, victoria's secret, microsoft, marriot-sodexho, a georgia recycling plant, honda, chevron, ibm, motorola, compaq, honeywell, boeing.

and the prison workers usually receive under $1 an hour (before deductions)


Not all prisons use prison labor .I think you are confuse with the prison industrial complex.




Looking at prisons, we see a form of slavery that is defended under the 13th Amendment. Basically, it says that you can't be forced to work unless that work is punishment for a crime. This means that servitude is forced upon criminals and they are forced to comply. Now, we also have to realize that these criminals receive little to no pay, and they are being exploited by big businesses, who use their labor in order to produce goods. I'm sure Marx wasn't referring to prisons when he talked about bourgeoisie corruption and oppression, but that corruption and oppression is so obviously taking place in American "rehabilitation" centers. In prisons.


Some prisoners do work in call centers.Or like tent city Arizona that use prison labor .




i agree that most folks in prison did not commit crimes which were meant to change the power structure in society.



But it does.If you look at the news alot of US people are tired of this drug war and that putting them in jail does not stop drug use.And have lost the war on drugs even with all the cops on the street and tough laws on drug use .

Alot is policital.Many congressman and senators are speaking out now.And the large prison population is having major effect economically do to the cost.They cannot keep going like this for too long.The cost is effecting the country.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

I'm tired, so I can't contribute much right now, but this thread caught my eye because I transported somebody from the hospital to a prison about 80miles away for work today.

He was a nice guy, and both I and the guard who had to ride with him knew he was weak as a kitten (his prognosis is 4-8 weeks. On the bright side, that mean's he'll be out of prison soon.), so he was no threat to escape/ fight, but the inmate still had to be shackled and cuffed to the gurney.

It was to the point of being silly, really.

In case anybody wants to know
1. He was black
2. I don't know why he was in prison; it wasn't pertinent to his healthcare, so I didn't even ask
3. He was dying, but I won't/can't tell more then that (it would be a breach of HIPAA and other privacy laws.)

[JimmyJazz]

It just so happens I looked this up tonight when my dad didn't believe me that the U.S. imprisons a higher % of its people than any other country:




The United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world. China is second, with 1.5 million people behind bars. The gap is even wider in percentage terms.

Germany imprisons 93 out of every 100,000 people, according to the International Center for Prison Studies at King’s College in London. The comparable number for the United States is roughly eight times that, or 750 out of 100,000.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/us/29prison.html

[counterblast]

Please explain how drug sales as a substantial source of prison population is "political" as in political crime esp. vs. an economic one.

So I guess you'd categorize stealing food to survive as merely an "economic" crime?

[spice756]

[quote=JimmyJazz;1254073]It just so happens I looked this up tonight when my dad didn't believe me that the U.S. imprisons a higher % of its people than any other country:[quote=


That does not even say the people on probation a other money maker:(Or the probation officers.

All a big money making thing.

[Hawk_]

Most prisoners belong in prison. It is not slavery.

[Redmau5]

Most prisoners belong in prison. It is not slavery.

Care to justify this with some evidence? Or is it just some irrational, baseless assertion which you can in no way justify?

[Dr Mindbender]

Most prisoners belong in prison. It is not slavery.

do most workers belong in wage slavery?

[Patchd]

I'm tired, so I can't contribute much right now, but this thread caught my eye because I transported somebody from the hospital to a prison about 80miles away for work today.

He was a nice guy, and both I and the guard who had to ride with him knew he was weak as a kitten (his prognosis is 4-8 weeks. On the bright side, that mean's he'll be out of prison soon.), so he was no threat to escape/ fight, but the inmate still had to be shackled and cuffed to the gurney.

It was to the point of being silly, really.

In case anybody wants to know
1. He was black
2. I don't know why he was in prison; it wasn't pertinent to his healthcare, so I didn't even ask
3. He was dying, but I won't/can't tell more then that (it would be a breach of HIPAA and other privacy laws.)
Do you work as a paramedic?