Was Che Racist?

[Mindtoaster]

I'd assume this has come up before, but it would be nice to talk about it again if it has.

Some Stormfronters were debating an anarchist on their OI board (Yes, they apparently do debate with us, and I think we should consider debating with them in OI on RevLeft if they are willing to be reasonable and not troll)

And one of their members insists that Che once said "The negro is indolent and lazy, wheras the European is forward-look and hard-working"

http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php/hi-message-free-thinking-left-488409p5.html

Is there any truth to this? Is there a story behind this statement if he ever actually said this. I know he apparently was not very progressive when it came to homosexuals.

[R_P_A_S]

yes! Che did say that at the UN in 1963!!! kidding!.. He made that comment while in Venezuela, inside the slums... Che had never seen an entire community of blacks... and he made this comments before he ever was a marxist.

[Faux Real]

The only sources coming up with that quote linked to by the stormfronter are links from Stormfront and Sean Hannity/Fox News (which probably got the quote from stormfront). Hardly credible (no, I don't regard Che as a 'great man').

[Lenin's Law]

With all due respect, debating with Stormfronts and neo-Nazis at this point seems highly irrelevant and a waste of time. I think we could use our free time far more effectively than debating with hardcore racists and Hitler-lovers.

With regards to Che, it is important not to look at any individual from an idealist point of view; all people make mistakes and more importantly all people are in some way limited by their material circumstances. Che grew up in mid-20th century Latin America where "machismo", racism and male-chauvinism was rampant. Hard to believe that this did not influence his thinking to some extent, even if it was on the subconscious level.

This is similar to the argument some people use against Marx/Engels: taking comments out of their historical and material context (19th century Europe) and looking at it from a 21st century point of view. It's good that we have progressed since then and therefore with regards to individuals it's best to drop idealist notions of viewing people in binary terms: "good" and "evil" and instead look at humans, including leaders and important figures, for what they are: praising them when they work in favor of the working class while criticising them when they make ignorant, prejudicial or anti-working class statements or beliefs while always taking into account the historical and materialist circumstances in which they lived realizing that no matter how "progressive" one may try to be it is impossible to completely escape and remove oneself from it.

[Glenn Beck]

With regards to Che, it is important not to look at any individual from an idealist point of view; all people make mistakes and more importantly all people are in some way limited by their material circumstances. Che grew up in mid-20th century Latin America where "machismo", racism and male-chauvinism was rampant. Hard to believe that this did not influence his thinking to some extent, even if it was on the subconscious level.QFT. Che was a white middle-class Latin American from Argentina (probably the whitest country on the continent). These kinds of sentiments are still prevalent among people from a similar background to Che's in the modern day, and this (if it happened) was long before his revolutionary career! Che went on to fight alongside Afro-Cubans and Angolans and he threw in his lot with the oppressed of the oppressed: the most impoverished people of color in Cuba, Africa, and Bolivia. To throw that all away because he made some ignorant statements in his youth when his mind was still full of the middle-class ideas he grew up with is pretty unreasonable if you ask me.

I come from a somewhat similar background to Che's and I have clear memories of my grandmother, who was of Che's generation complaining about "los negros" in similar terms to Che's alleged statement and have had to struggle with this kind of upbringing in order to become progressive. I have no doubt that Che had to struggle with himself and his own false beliefs throughout his political development as a revolutionary. This isn't to say we should be lax towards racist attitudes but, like Lenin's Law said, to take into account the historical and material circumstances that form people's attitudes and recognize that all revolutionaries must struggle with the pervasive influence of reactionary ideology from within as well as from without.

[Mindtoaster]

With all due respect, debating with Stormfronts and neo-Nazis at this point seems highly irrelevant and a waste of time. I think we could use our free time far more effectively than debating with hardcore racists and Hitler-lovers.

With regards to Che, it is important not to look at any individual from an idealist point of view; all people make mistakes and more importantly all people are in some way limited by their material circumstances. Che grew up in mid-20th century Latin America where "machismo", racism and male-chauvinism was rampant. Hard to believe that this did not influence his thinking to some extent, even if it was on the subconscious level.

This is similar to the argument some people use against Marx/Engels: taking comments out of their historical and material context (19th century Europe) and looking at it from a 21st century point of view. It's good that we have progressed since then and therefore with regards to individuals it's best to drop idealist notions of viewing people in binary terms: "good" and "evil" and instead look at humans, including leaders and important figures, for what they are: praising them when they work in favor of the working class while criticising them when they make ignorant, prejudicial or anti-working class statements or beliefs while always taking into account the historical and materialist circumstances in which they lived realizing that no matter how "progressive" one may try to be it is impossible to completely escape and remove oneself from it.

Yes, all I was really saying though, is that I don't see why we don't just debate fascists on RevLeft when we are already spending time debating capitalists and such. Aslong as they don't spam and troll there really is no point in not engaging them in debate on OI. Refusing to argue with them makes us look like we are afraid of hearing what they have to say, not just pissed off by it.

As said above I'm taking the evidence they've presented with a grain of salt, as the statement seems to only link back to Stormfront and Fox News. As you said I think it is still understandable if he did say that once, especially before he was a revolutionary. Ontop of the time he made that statement, we also all know how frustrated he was with the tribalism during the time he spent in Angola.

[Red_Dialectics]

Debating them would legitimize their position, and make it look like a credible political point of view. Fascists are the scum of the earth, and do not even deserve our rebuttal or the time of fucking day. Whether they act like a typical troll or not, they are still trolls, and as such feed off our responses. Don't feed them and they may go away. If they don't, then we remove them.

[Dean]

Considering that Che considered the northern half of the globe to be the primary oppressors of the southern half, this seems quite unlikely, or at least totally irrelevant.

[Comrada J]

Instead of a place of valid theory, I view SF as a 'funny' website for entertainment. I especially like it when the Ultra-nationalists fight with Other Ultra-nationalists (from other nations).


With regards to Che, it is important not to look at any individual from an idealist point of view; all people make mistakes and more importantly all people are in some way limited by their material circumstances.
QFT2. You shouldn't look too far into it. I'd be very surprised if Che didn't have any flaws. But, we all know Che was a great traveler and an Internationalist at heart, so its highly unlikely racism would be one of those flaws.

[John Lenin]

Of note:

Che's personal bodyguard and good friend Harry "Pombo" Villegas was black ... who was with him at all times and fought with him in Bolivia.



CHE, His Wife, & Pombo


http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/01/gal_cheguevara_4.jpg




POMBO TODAY (who survived Bolivia and still admires Che)


http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eF18Na2LK83A/610x.jpg




Also, when Che went to fight in the Congo he fought with an army of mostly all black Afro Cubans. He also spent months living in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania (Africa) with only blacks.




CHE in the CONGO


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/CheinCongo2.gif

[John Lenin]

Other points of interest:


- The foreign leader that Che spoke out in memory of, more than any other, was Patrice Lumumba the slain Congolese leader assassinated by the CIA.

- Che spoke out in favor of black rights in the U.S., against segregation, and against South African apartheid before the U.N. in 1964 (when American blacks in the South couldn't share a swimming pool or water fountain with whites).

- Do racists against blacks volunteer to risk their life in the Congo fighting alongside black African troops against white South African mercenaries ?

- Che met with associates of Malcolm X in 1964, and was called by Malcolm X "one of the most revolutionary men in the country at that time"

- Che offered to fight in Mozambique for the FRELIMO to achieve independence.

- Che integreated all the schools in Cuba, years before they were integrated in the U.$.

- When speaking to the UN in 1964, Che spoke in favor of allowing black singer Paul Robeson to be allowed to have his music played in the U.S.

[UndergroundConnexion]

That quote does not exist as far as I see it. What Stormfront****s tend to however is to use that passage in African Diaries (at the end), and put it completely out of context.

[More Fire for the People]

Che was trying to make a pre-Marxist, pseudo-intellectual sociological observation. After struggling with Afro-Latinos in the struggle for liberation he changed his world view and viewed anti-imperialist struggle in Africa and Asia as central to the liberation of mankind.

[PostAnarchy]

Che may or may not have been racist though I woudln't have been surprised if he was giving the heavy amount of racism in the 1950s Latin America he grew up in. That being said I think this is one of the least things we should be concerned with as far as Che is concerned and far more relevant is the method he used to try to achieve revolution (foco guerilla units) and the state he helped to set up - bureacratic Stalinist regime - which turned out to have very negative results for the working class.

[gerny]

Che gave no relevance to the issue of race as is most evident in his collaboration with the Congolese in their failed revolution just before he set off for Bolivia. In reality, Che would have probably ascribed to the notion that in a true socialist state (one in which momentous social change would bring about new "socialist individuals"), race would become a frivolous issue.

[Ernesto "Che" Guevara]

Alas, he did say that - I've got the Motorcycle Diaries behind me, and unless insidious editors inserted it, he does say it.

But as everyone else said, he was human. Worse, he was Argentinan. What do you expect ;)

[Gegen den Staat]

Quotes from the Motorcycle Diaries show Guevara was a racist and a bigot but then he changed his views.

[pastradamus]

As someone who has read and studied just about every biography, Book and film about Che Guevara (I even have the guy tattooed on my back) I find this quote by these stormfronters to be either an untruth or something which has been totally taken out of context when one studies Guevara.

One must take into account what Guevara was before his famous motorcycle journey with Alberto Granado. That is to say, a Middle-class white person, educated in a University crammed full of bourgeois elements. Guevara also came from one of the only South American States in which there was a very small number of Black people at that time. So in a word - He wasn't used to seeing black people.

However, If one thing is true of Guevara it is that, He was not a racist. As he traveled through latin America he slowly left The White middle Class person from Argentina behind him bit by bit and became a committed Revolutionary. He was not a racist. To associate yourself with Guevara is to Associate yourself with Revolution, Leftism, Equality, The Working Class and most definetly anti-rascism. Guevara fought and Died with Black people - So if the young Guevara did say this quote, the Revolutionary Guevara certainly did not. If this quote is, in fact, true then it has been taken out of the context of the person he became and is simply a tool of right-wing propaganda.

[Invincible Summer]

I don't see how someone's personal reactionary views matters at all, so long as they don't really do anything about them (e.g. become a fascist or something and work for their reactionary views).

It's typical of rightists to "dig up the dirt" and use such tabloid garbage as debate material.

[Die Rote Fahne]

You must remember. Che wasn't always a Marxist. He lost his bigoted views as he accepted Marxism.

[Dimentio]

The bizarre thing is that they are using racism as an insult! :laugh:

It would be like a murderer accusing someone who once pushed a man on his nose in a bar brawl to be "violent".

[Stephen Colbert]

The only sources coming up with that quote linked to by the stormfronter are links from Stormfront and Sean Hannity/Fox News (which probably got the quote from stormfront). Hardly credible (no, I don't regard Che as a 'great man').

Look up revolutionary holocaust: live free or die. It's a Glenn Beck special and that quote is used verbatum in the special if im not mistaken

[The Ben G]

As stated before, Che was ignorant in the begging, but he changed.

[Imposter Marxist]

Look up revolutionary holocaust: live free or die. It's a Glenn Beck special and that quote is used verbatum in the special if im not mistaken

Excellent Special by the way. :laugh:

[Adi Shankara]

Now just a minute here! can anyone prove Che Guevara was racist, specifically against black people? he travelled across South America and broke bread with many black people, mestizos, and what not. he fought along side blacks in Cuba as well.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/che-congo.gif

he fought in Angola, served under a black commadante. He was dedicated to non-racial struggle for all peoples. I would LOVE to see source on these "racist" quotes of his: I once asked this question on a conservative forum, and instead of answers, I got banned.

there is so much slander going Guevara's way, some people still probably believe he is a "mass murderer" when all there is as proof is some 10 year old exile rag published in Miami by Cubans who left the day DICTATOR Batista fell.

[Subcomandante Marcos.]

It was taken out of context.

What che meant was that, black people are pushed into ghettos, they are given guns, liquor stores are erected in black neighborhoods, he was saying that, due to the actions of the white fascist Capitalistic governments, the black man is pushed into self hatred and hopelesness, black people are prime targets for alcoholism and drug addiction, because they are purposely herded into ghettos and given cheap easy suply of drugs guns and liquor to make them apathetic and "lazy".

He wasn't saying black people are lazy and indolent, he was saying the system tries to make them so.

Fuck racism, che was not racist, he wouldn't have stopped the segregation of parks and such in cuba if he was.

If a man believes a black man is inferior, just hear almeida cry, no one here surrenders, and they will think again.

[proudcomrade]

che was not racist, he wouldn't have stopped the segregation of parks and such in cuba if he was.

That's not necessarily true. A person can harbor a certain degree of a given discrimination- racism, misogyny or what have you- and still do good toward opposing that very thing. People get really conflicted & occasionally self-contradictory when it comes to big, loaded moral matters that affect humanity.

Going on what I have read of Ernesto Guevara in biographies, news footage, the diaries, etc., I do believe that he had some problems with racism as well as sexism. He was also a notorious homophobe and an absolute merciless assassin when it came to dealing with the counterrevolution after they won, all while spouting off moralistic little quotes about how "revolutionaries are motivated by love" and so on. Part of Guevara was ugly and cruel, and we comrades are only denying reality not to admit that out loud. We become like the stereotypical fourteen-year-old starry-eyed kid in the Che t-shirt when we do that.

Communism is not about splitting everybody into unrealistic absolutes, where this one is a secular saint, and thus above criticism, whereas that one is a walking devil who can do nothing right. Ernesto Guevara accomplished a whole world of good for the marginalized of several places in the world. He is to be praised and remembered forever for that. But he also had a dark side, gave into it a few times, did wrong, and caused irreversible harm to others in the process. He is to be held accountable historically for that as well.

The more historically accurate and dispassionate we can be about the matter, the better we can understand the person's legacy. People are too quick to polarize.

[Subcomandante Marcos.]

No, your just being populist for the liberals.

He was not racist at all, he was probably slightly male chauvanist, which is bad of course.

Also, the likes of the USSR, were saying Homosexuality was a result of capitalism, so of course he would have been weary of gay people, because idiots put it out there, and che foolishly bought it.

[proudcomrade]

No, your just being populist for the liberals.

Huh? :confused:



He was not racist at all, he was probably slightly male chauvanist, which is bad of course.His remarks about Black comrades are part of the historical record, as is his admitting to sexual coercion of one of his bourgeois family's housekeepers on the night of his fourteenth birthday as a macho rite of passage common among upper-crust Argentine males of that era; he is also on record as having cheated on and abandoned his first wife.


Also, the likes of the USSR, were saying Homosexuality was a result of capitalism, so of course he would have been weary of gay people, because idiots put it out there, and che foolishly bought it.He did more than simply dislike gays; he helped create forced labor camps in which they were imprisoned for years. The Cuban state admits this today and officially recognizes it as having been "a mistake". Raul's current administration is still scrambling to repair the damage done to gays over the decades. It will take considerable time and effort.

[Subcomandante Marcos.]

i know i read andersons book :)

I am not saying he was perfect, but i am saying he was not racist, not in a million years.

I am defending him on the charges of homophobic and true sexist, but i am reading cuba in revolution, so if i find anything, i will openly admit he is a prick, i just did not think cuba had reactionary laws.

if so, i will wash my hands of him, but i do not listen to capitalist lies, i will get back to you after i have finished the book.

Also, so what if he slept with another woman, should a person be chained to one person forever, if they are not happy can't they leave their partner.

Lots of men and women leave their partners, so WHAT?

[pastradamus]

As stated before, Che was ignorant in the begging, but he changed.

As we all did comrade as we all did.