where's the party in opposition to capitalism in the U.S.A.?

[R_P_A_S]

Ok.. if a time to strike the minds and hearts of American's isn't RIGHT NOW! I have no idea when then. The two party state, we all here know is simply one party for Capitalism. no secret there. However the majority of Americans have no clue. Some believe Obama will magically change things for the best. solely based on his campaign slogan... "Change you can believe in!" :blushing:

So where's the left wing? the representatives of the working class who are tired of this endless shit. Their government has let them down before. but this time It has been going on since Bush was in office. for 8 years non stop.

This is when I personally get irritated... all this sectarianism among the left wing. everyone wants to have their own lil cool party with their own cool acronym and cooler logo. "im red than you" :thumbup1:

This is why we lose and this is why we are always last in line. no organization. No action.

[Ratatosk]

Yes, we need to make more internet proclamations complaining about no action.

[Lenin's Law]

I agree with your sentiments regarding this as a an ideal time in building class consciousness. As for other left parties, they do exist but they are small as you can imagine and yes, many have been accused of "sectarianism" However, this is of course somewhat subjective as the parties that are accused of it usually respond by saying that they are "principled"

Many socialists and communists are working with the Green Party or the Nader campaign. True they are not socialists, but (advocates of this position claim) they are a step forward from the 2 big business parties. The problem as I see it with these two parties is that they are generally middle class with lots of hippies and single-issue people.

This is actually a subject I would like to have a serious discussion on as I do agree with your main point that this is a time for left propaganda and assisting in the need for a definitive break with the 2 big business parties.

[Lynx]

McCain and Obama are not the only candidates running for president!
Here's one:
http://www.socialequality.com/

[R_P_A_S]

Yes, we need to make more internet proclamations complaining about no action.

im on my way to work and for the time being this is ALL I CAN DO! so get off my back!!!!

[R_P_A_S]

how exactly do i live in a free society and in a democratic country..?? when there's NO OPPOSITION to capitalism and it's downward spiral out of control???

There's no body on TV, Radio or anyone heavily criticism the system or asking for people to demand REAL change...

[Lenin's Law]

how exactly do i live in a free society and in a democratic country..?? when there's NO OPPOSITION to capitalism and it's downward spiral out of control???

There's no body on TV, Radio or anyone heavily criticism the system or asking for people to demand REAL change...

Of course not. Why would the capitalist-controlled media advocate for their own destruction?

As far as being in a "free society" and "democratic country" goes, I'm sure with 2000+ posts you've been here long enough to answer that one...

[trivas7]

This is when I personally get irritated... all this sectarianism among the left wing. everyone wants to have their own lil cool party with their own cool acronym and cooler logo. "im red than you" :thumbup1:

This is why we lose and this is why we are always last in line. no organization. No action.
There are plenty of left-wing parties out there and there are good historical reasons for sectarianism IMO. Perhaps we need to to be working on the working-class movement ala Jacob Richter. The system in the USA is rigged to remain a two-wing bourgeois party system; how do you expect for this to change?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Many socialists and communists are working with the Green Party or the Nader campaign. True they are not socialists, but they are a step forward from the 2 big business parties.

..and to a small business party.

* * *

Of course the U.S. has no major, or even really minor workers party -- or even a party claiming to be a workers party or with origins as a workers party such as Labour. (The closest thing we have is the small and largely inactive Labor Party (http://www.thelaborparty.org/)).

It has to do with the history of the U.S. and the results of the class struggle over the years.

Key to moving forward here is the establishment of a workers party which can break folks from the Democrats.

[Lenin's Law]

Key to moving forward here is the establishment of a workers party which can break folks from the Democrats.

Great, I think everyone would agree with that here. The question is How?

[mykittyhasaboner]

I know the Party For Socialism and Liberation are running in the US elections. http://www.pslweb.org/site/PageServer?pagename=votepsl_home

[R_P_A_S]

Great, I think everyone would agree with that here. The question is How?

exactly. the question is HOW? HOW? CDL.. you guys have a real nice group there and all... "free peoples movement" stages protest, attends rallies, informs people, countless and countless of activism. A lot more than what I've done in my short 2 and a half years in left... i commend any of you out there... HOWEVER we are only exercising or right to freedom of speech.

that's how i feel about all the leftists pro worker and pro socialist groups and parties in the U.S. all they really do is practice freedom of speech. which to me is the biggest most efficient way to trick people into believing they have rights and are free... "you can scream and shout.. but don't you go thinking you can actually DO something."

[chegitz guevara]

McCain and Obama are not the only candidates running for president!
Here's one:
http://www.socialequality.com/

I'm not sure the David North cult will actually be on any ballots. Really haven't heard much of a peep out of them. The Barnes cult is also running candidates, but again, no one much talks about them.

The only two socialist campaigns that are generating any press are PSL's campaign by Gloria La Riva and Eugene Puryear and the Socialist Party's candidates, Brian Moore and Stewart Alexander. Both Gloria and Brian expect to be on the ballot in 12 states and write-ins in many more. Unfortunately, the election laws are stacked against 3rd parties. Even when they aren't dirty tricks by the bosses conspire to keep us off.

For example, in Louisiana, the final day for turning in paperwork Hurricane Gustav forced the closing of government offices. So the the SP wasn't able to get on the ballot. Both the SP and the Libertarians sued, and the courts have sided with the LP, but not with us. Elsewhere, an SP lawsuit opened up the ballot for many third party candidates, such as in Ohio.

Socialist Action endorsed all the socialist candidates :thumbup1:. Freedom Socialist Party worked to help get the SP on the ballot in Washington state (an effort that failed).

At what I am truly dismayed is the large number of socialist and communist organizations supporting bourgeois candidates. ISO, Workers World, Solidarity, Socialist Alternative, etc. are all supporting either Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader. Even worse are groups that have endorsed Obama: the Communist Party, Democratic Socialists of America, the Social Democrats of America, and others. :thumbdown:

[R_P_A_S]

I mean.. so its easy to say that the biggest problem, obstacle is us?

[Red Flag Rising]

Thank you for asking the question but there is no party opposition that anyone is listening to on this issue. We have fumbled the fucking ball on this.

You know who is getting the credit? The fucking right-wing populists, that's who!

Capitalism wins again and we keep getting it in the ass!

[chegitz guevara]

I mean.. so its easy to say that the biggest problem, obstacle is us?

Sure it's easy to say. It's also easy to say the moon is made of green cheese. It's easy to say George Bush is sucking my Cheney. That doesn't mean any of those statements are correct.

We are not our own worst enemy. The worst enemy of socialism in the U.S. is the fact that people can take hot showers and go to bed on a full stomach.

Let's try and have some grip on reality. Even if the entire socialist movement were unite behind a single socialist candidate, it wouldn't make a difference. We'd still be a blip on the electoral radar. Partly it's because the laws are constructed in favor of the two main capitalist parties. Mostly it's because of the first past the post system the U.S. has, which punishes people for voting for what they want, rather than voting for the lesser evil.

That said, we should not be calm about sectarianism and division. While it is hardly the most significant factor in the sorry state of the left, it is the most significant factor over which we have any control!

On the other hand, having four socialist candidates for president means its more likely someone will run across a socialist argument. That's a good thing.

Oh, and support me for congress. http://www.luzietti.com/ :thumbup1:

[chegitz guevara]

Thank you for asking the question but there is no party opposition that anyone is listening to on this issue. We have fumbled the fucking ball on this.

No we haven't. We're just too small to be noticed. That's not an factor in our control. We can't will the media to spread our message.

[Lenin's Law]

You know who is getting the credit? The fucking right-wing populists, that's who!


And why? Because they have better ideas or because there is a layer of the capitalist class which believes they can effectively use right-wing populism to diffuse popular anger into a kind of (fake) populist demagogy. Thus they give them access to the mass media in the form of talk radio, cable news, well-financed websites, public speakers, etc. This is a dictatorship of capital remember?

Some of you have really internalized the bourgeois propaganda about being in a "democracy" and "free society" and use idealist notions of how things change instead of materialist ones. In other words , the actions and choices of individuals are not the primary or most significant factor in explaining the absence of a powerful left movement right now.

[R_P_A_S]

how are we too small to be noticed when we make up the majority of the population? single mothers, people on welfare, exploited workers might not have a title or an "ism" but they are us!

[chegitz guevara]

"We" is the revolutionary left. Try not do divorce discussions from their context.

[TheRedRevolutionary]

At what I am truly dismayed is the large number of socialist and communist organizations supporting bourgeois candidates. ISO, Workers World, Solidarity, Socialist Alternative, etc. are all supporting either Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader. Even worse are groups that have endorsed Obama: the Communist Party, Democratic Socialists of America, the Social Democrats of America, and others. :thumbdown:

Comrade these are not true Marxist Leninist parties but parties of petit bourgeois reformism, Trotskyism and in essense fake Marxists. Their open support for petit bourgeois capitalist parties demonstrates this.

[RedHal]

yes I feel your frustrations. This is about as big a crisis that capitalism is facing in my lifetime, and it can continue going downhill. I fear, that instead of "united we are strong, divided we are weak" the revevolutionary leftists organizations will continue their bickering amongst themselves and let opportunity after opportunity pass them by. Remember communism cannot work if we do not have a collective mindset, how can you convince the masses if these vanguardist parties can't even get along? It's fucken ridiculous.

[Mindtoaster]

Comrade these are not true Marxist Leninist parties but parties of petit bourgeois reformism, Trotskyism and in essense fake Marxists. Their open support for petit bourgeois capitalist parties demonstrates this.

Your sectarianism is counter-revolutionary. And in a quite literal sense.

Theres never going to be a revolution if the left won't stop fighting.

[Lenin's Law]

Your sectarianism is counter-revolutionary. And in a quite literal sense.

Theres never going to be a revolution if the left won't stop fighting.

Then by your logic their will never be a revolution

Look, study any revolution you want: Russian, Chinese, Cuban, take your pick there was never unanimity within the left! And it in all likelihood will never happen - it's highly improbable because sometimes the only thing that we agree upon is this: capitalism should be replaced by something more egaliatarian. That's it.

Now that is not to say that there can't be more unity within sections of the left and less sectarianism but to ask anarchists-stalinists-trotskyists-left communists to just all "get along" is highly unrealistic.

[Spartacist]

Do you want to know how this is being hailed? A victory AGAINST SOCIALISM.

Red Flag is correct, we are f-u-c-k-e-d.

[Lenin's Law]

I'll reiterate what I said earlier: What do you expect the corporate/capitalist controlled media to say:



And we have Breaking News Today: Revolutionary Socialism and the forces of Marxism won a great victory! All power to the proleteriat! Viva la Revolucion!!!


Of course they will spin it against revolutionary socialism!! Come on guys, if you're expecting revolutionary socialism out of the airwaves of CNN and Fox News or the pages of the New York Times you will be perpetually disappointed.

[Mindtoaster]

Then by your logic their will never be a revolution

Look, study any revolution you want: Russian, Chinese, Cuban, take your pick there was never unanimity within the left! And it in all likelihood will never happen - it's highly improbable because sometimes the only thing that we agree upon is this: capitalism should be replaced by something more egaliatarian. That's it.

Now that is not to say that there can't be more unity within sections of the left and less sectarianism but to ask anarchists-stalinists-trotskyists-left communists to just all "get along" is highly unrealistic.

And why not?

The vast majority of sectarian arguments on this site tend to be petty bullshit surrounding the history of dead Russians and Spaniards.

"Stalin was a tyrant WAAAAAAAAH"

"Trotsky was an opportunist WAAAAAAAAH"

"You mother fuckers killed Durutti WAAAAAAAAH"


At the end of the day the ideological differences we do have really are not that important.
Anarchists want immediate communism
Leninists want a drawn-out transition

During a revolution could there not be anarchist territories within a socialist state? Would you forcibly demand that they be collectivized with the rest of your state if you were calling the shots Lenin's Law?

I seriously doubt that most of the marxist-leninists on this site would. Would the anarchists constantly work to try and undermine your state from within? I seriously doubt it if they were left to their own territories.

And hell, i think you'd have to have a pretty good understanding of marxist theory in order to understand the differences between left-communism and other forms of Marxism. I sure haven't figured it out, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance.

My two cents.

And really, I'm not trying to piss anyone off. We might be at a crucial junction here with a *possible* economic collapse in front of us. The left needs to be presenting a unified front for the workers.

[chegitz guevara]

Comrade these are not true Marxist Leninist parties but parties of petit bourgeois reformism, Trotskyism and in essense fake Marxists. Their open support for petit bourgeois capitalist parties demonstrates this.

It's what we got. Both FRSOs are supporting Obama, if I understand correctly. The RCP is busy imploding. Ain't like the Maoists or Stalinists are any better.

[BraneMatter]

Key to moving forward here is the establishment of a workers party which can break folks from the Democrats.

Yep, I agree. At least in the Sixties we had the student movements... but we failed to get through to labor.

There was an earlier time when the Communist Party and the Wobblies made some headway in the unions, but it's just not there today.

But you've got to work with what you got, so I'm not gonna denounce anyone because they vote Green or for Obama, even though that will not be my own choice.

Oh, I know, if you dance with the devil, there's a chance you might end up going home with the devil. I'd sooner not go to the dance, but that's just me. However, I'm not going to proclaim my righteousness and purity, and start throwing stones at others, either. The movement has always had people of different views and levels, and they can all help as best they can. Maybe that's too tolerant, I dunno...

[Bronsky]

I agree with your sentiments regarding this as a an ideal time in building class consciousness. As for other left parties, they do exist but they are small as you can imagine and yes, many have been accused of "sectarianism" However, this is of course somewhat subjective as the parties that are accused of it usually respond by saying that they are "principled"

Many socialists and communists are working with the Green Party or the Nader campaign. True they are not socialists, but (advocates of this position claim) they are a step forward from the 2 big business parties. The problem as I see it with these two parties is that they are generally middle class with lots of hippies and single-issue people.

This is actually a subject I would like to have a serious discussion on as I do agree with your main point that this is a time for left propaganda and assisting in the need for a definitive break with the 2 big business parties.

My opinion is by backing the Greens or Nadar those groups that actively support them give up the independent struggle of the working class. All they are doing is replacing Democrat Republican big capitalist parties with liberal parties who would still advocate capitalism. Better to put forward a platform of real socialist policies for the working class than the liberal junk coming out of these candidates.

Am I right in thinking there are three left parties The Socialist Equality Party, The Socialist Workers Party, and the Party of Socialism and Liberation, but, and again I think its’ the case, the way the system works you need a lot of bucks to go through all states.

Maybe an American comrade could explain how the system works for small socialist parties wanting to take part.

[Bronsky]

Comrade these are not true Marxist Leninist parties but parties of petit bourgeois reformism, Trotskyism and in essense fake Marxists. Their open support for petit bourgeois capitalist parties demonstrates this.

From what I see of the Trotskyist Socialist Equality Party on their website Red Revolutionary they don’t support any on the bourgeois parties. The do a daily expose of Obama and have done so ever since he began his claim to fame.

They are standing on a socialist ticket, but I guess their aim is to bring the message to as many people as they can, elections are usually very good events to do this. You get some coverage in the mainstream media you would never get and even if the working class don’t vote for you, their understanding of the situation is sharpened a great deal. Can’t post links yet but type in WSWS and you will get it on google

[Bronsky]

Great, I think everyone would agree with that here. The question is How?

I think the conditions haven’t been there for a mass workers party in the US since the 30s. The Stalinist repression in the USSR was a great tool for capitalism at that time when the workers were looking for a genuine leadership. Trotskyism was just about picking itself off the floor and trying to survive as a united movement. Too many good politically aware workers were lost to the working class through them not having a leadership that was not only openly for the overthrow of capitalism but had a strategy to do it.

Today this present crisis is begging for such a leadership to come forward, but this time with a clean sheet not tainted by Stalinist betrayals.

[R_P_A_S]

I'm not sure if any of you have ever laid in bed, unable to fall asleep. Because you can't stop thinking about the political situation. I for one have been feeling really anxious. This 2008 U.S. Presidential Election is my first as a "Leftist" in 2004 I was a year and half away from class consciousness. Bust just like in 2004 and now in 2008 I'm not eligible to participant giving that I'm not a U.S. Citizen.

These debates from a "marxist" perspective are really something else. You totally catch the loop holes and It's sort of exciting being able to "get it" and no longer be fooled by this politicians, that in reality, Democrat or Republic still are here with the Capitalist system's interest FIRST and then maybe The People a close second or third place.

But just how it's "exciting" to finally "get it". I'ts fucking depressing. It really is. Because I KNOW that It's not going to matter, I know that neither of these candidates is going to turn the tide and bring about REAL Change. And my friends... It saddens me. for myself that I might not get to go back to school because I can't afford it., my parents who probably won't ever be able to stop working and retire. and for the fucking over worked Cashier at my neighborhood market that has to work twice as fast every fucking night because the General Managers want to save the store money and only schedule one cashier for the 11pm to 7am shift. It breaks my heart.

Hence why I titled this thread "where's the party in opposition to capitalism in the U.S.?"

Barak Obama, to me the guy is like an 8 year old kid. You know? How some kids want to be police officers when they grow up? Because they feel that's a way to do good in the world and "catch the bay guys?" An illusion, a naive and childish illusion.

John McCain, He's rhetoric about Free Trade and the whole bullshit 50 year old American Dream lie... "I want Joe to plumber to buy his own insurance, I want your family to decide this and that" That shit to the unconscious worker sure sounds like "freedom" but now I get it. they just want us to keep on competing and to keep on spending and make fucking private property prosper while we cut each other throats.

Why the faith on this shit system? Why do they want us to keep on competing and competing? Why do we eat this shit up?

The other day some girl at my job was talking about Time Square in New York city and how its so amazing and must see land mark in New York City bla bla bla... And I thought to my self, for a second.. "yeah its pretty cool" then I remember what's Time Square amounts too... nothing but fucking bright lights of advertisements. that makes people "awe" in amazement? REALLY?

I know I'm just going off on a rant. but I can't fucking sleep.

[JimmyJazz]

the David North cult

Who is that?


The Barnes cult

The Pathfinder tendency people?


The only two socialist campaigns that are generating any press are PSL's campaign by Gloria La Riva and Eugene Puryear and the Socialist Party's candidates, Brian Moore and Stewart Alexander. Both Gloria and Brian expect to be on the ballot in 12 states and write-ins in many more.

What about Calero and Kennedy of the SWP (http://www.socialism.com/fsarticles/vol29no5/voting.html)?

Also today and tomorrow are basically the last chance to help get SPUSA's Moore/Alexander official write-in status in CA (http://www.revleft.com/vb/scratch-if-you-t91977/index.html?t=91977), if you are a CA resident.


Freedom Socialist Party worked to help get the SP on the ballot in Washington state (an effort that failed).

That's awesome. :thumbup1:


groups that have endorsed Obama: the Communist Party

Lol -I knew this but it still makes me lol every time.


Some of you have really internalized the bourgeois propaganda about being in a "democracy" and "free society" and use idealist notions of how things change instead of materialist ones.

Dude, no offense, but were you born a Marxist? I think not.

[A New Era]

We do not need more parties. We need a working class in the U.S. who gets their head out of their ass and start seeing the world for what it is.

[chegitz guevara]

Who is that?

The Socialist Equality Party, former Workers League, formerly tied to the Gerry Healy cult in Great Britain.


The Pathfinder tendency people?

Yep, the Socialist Workers Party (USA).


What about Calero and Kennedy of the SWP (http://www.socialism.com/fsarticles/vol29no5/voting.html)?

They aren't generating much press. They were mentioned, obliquely, in an article by, I think, the Wall Street Journal, where the reporter was talking to a SWP paper hawker.


That's awesome. :thumbup1:

Yes, it is. :tt1:


Lol -I knew this but it still makes me lol every time.

Apparently the CP is running it's own candidates. I only know this because I saw their names on the sample ballot. The CP folks in my area never mention their candidates at all.

[JimmyJazz]

They aren't generating much press. They were mentioned, obliquely, in an article by, I think, the Wall Street Journal, where the reporter was talking to a SWP paper hawker.

If you're talking about mainstream sources like the WSJ, I personally haven't heard any socialist candidates mentioned.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yet another call for people to waste their time with reformist nonsense. Colour me bored. When will you guys learn that reformism only validates a broken system which is designed from the top down to prevent true change?