Two questions.

[Kukulofori]

Do we have a plan? It's nice to talk here about how awesome socialism would be but that won't amount to anything unless it gets set into motion.

In an anarchist society, what's to prevent the formation of new states, etc?

[Q]

Do we have a plan? It's nice to talk here about how awesome socialism would be but that won't amount to anything unless it gets set into motion.
I completely agree with you! However, we won't convince the majority of the working class of the need to end capitalism just like that. It takes time and effort. We should actively help (re)build the workers movement and fight the daily struggle, be on the streets. And while we're doing that, we need to actively discuss and debate the need for a socialist transformation of society within the movement and try to convince others. Discussion on theory and perspectives and daily action go hand in hand. Get involved! There's probably a group near you!


In an anarchist society, what's to prevent the formation of new states, etc?
I'll leave this question up to the anarchists. But what I do want to point out is that we, Trotskyists, argue to end and abolish the capitalist state and replace it with a workers state (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/t.htm#state), in other words: replace the rule of the bourgeoisie with that of the working class. This latter state has a fundamentally different structure and works with workers councils (or soviets (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/orgs/s/o.htm#soviets) as they're called in Russian). As long as the class society exists (with an end to capitalism, the bourgeoisie will eventually starve), the workers state will exist. With the withering away of the class society, so will the state (this doesn't however necessarily mean the soviets will wither away).

[Black Sheep]

Do we have a plan
Of course we do, in fact we have like too many plans ..:D

Every ideology constructs a different plan, so i would suggest learning about the separate leftist currents and their proposal to the proletarian revolution.

You can start from here http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolutionary-left-dictionary-t22628/index.html (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revolutionary-left-dictionary-t22628/index.html)

[Schrödinger's Cat]

In an anarchist society, what's to prevent the formation of new states, etc?Action.

What prevents the reintroduction of chattel slavery? Good values held by the majority.

[Kukulofori]

Action.
What prevents the reintroduction of chattel slavery? Good values held by the majority.


That might work. But there's also a chance we'd be looking at another American Revolution, where in 2-300 years everyone will forget what it was about entirely and the same thing will happen. What's gonna prevent that?

[Incendiarism]

Why would you willingly or consciously return to old forms of organization(capitalism, government) when you are free from those precarious grounds, your needs are assured, etc?

[Kukulofori]

I dunno, why'd it happen the first time?

All it takes is one Stalin or Hitler.

[F9]

Do we have a plan? It's nice to talk here about how awesome socialism would be but that won't amount to anything unless it gets set into motion.

yeah,peoples revolution.When this is accomplished and majority of people is aware of what we are fighting for,the overthrowing of the system would be take place.Of course and we would face difficulties,though with people awareness,and unity the counter revolutionaries are going to be destroyed by their own systems.Their weapons will turn on them,their planes,their tanks etc etc.Because who does control those things if not the poor people who cant do anything than joining army to live?


In an anarchist society, what's to prevent the formation of new states, etc?

Again people!Why would anyone would wanted to return somewhere that they were going to be exploited?If some people would go and want to restart Capitalism when in some meters there are Anarchism-Communism do you believe that there are going to be people who decide to go with Capitalists to be exploited?Any try of state generation would fail dramatically as no one would want to be exploited,no one would want to be un-equal with no freedoms!Its really common sense and nothing more!

Fuserg9:star:

[Kukulofori]

Not everyone would know the states are oppressive though. Enough propoganda can convince people of pretty much anything.

Also, nothing to prevent hostile expansion.

Also, how would I find out if there was some way to get involved in my area?

[The Douche]

I dunno, why'd it happen the first time?

All it takes is one Stalin or Hitler.

It happend a first time? We had a successful anarchist revolution which resulted in a stable society that was then overthrown in favor of liberal capitalism and democracy?

Name one time in human history where we have regressed in our development. It hasn't happend, there is no historical precedent for it so I see no reason why it even needs to be discussed.

[GPDP]

First off, welcome to RevLeft, Kij! Glad you finally joined. :D


Not everyone would know the states are oppressive though. Enough propoganda can convince people of pretty much anything.

To be sure, propaganda is a problem, but one largely applicable to current society, when the ruling class all but possesses a monopoly/oligopoly on the media. Following a revolution, however, the major propaganda apparati (did I say that right?) will most likely be seized. And let's not forget that knowledge on propaganda methods are not exactly a secret! How, then, can the dispossessed bourgeois possibly gather enough resources to effectively out-propagandize us with counter-revolutionary crap?

Besides, if the large majority of people were still oblivious as to the nature of the state and capitalism, then how the hell did we get a revolution started, let alone one that would actually progress and not degenerate into the Soviet Union redux?


Also, nothing to prevent hostile expansion.

Au contraire! Let us say we achieve a revolution, and the United States turns into the United Federation of Communes. Were one of these communes to somehow turn capitalist, and begin to experience a desire to expand and restore the old United States, the other communes could band together and stop the rogue commune from getting any further. But yes, this is always a concern, and it will not entirely disappear overnight.


Also, how would I find out if there was some way to get involved in my area?

Where do you live? Maybe some members here live near you, and can provide information. You can always try googling as well. You might find something that way.

Anyway, enjoy your stay here, and I hope you stick around and learn!

[Gleb]

It happend a first time? We had a successful anarchist revolution which resulted in a stable society that was then overthrown in favor of liberal capitalism and democracy?


I know what you meant here, but it still sounds rather silly to say that anarchism would be overthrown in favour of democracy, considering anarchy is basically the purest form of democratic rule, after all. :)

[/offtopic]

[The Douche]

I know what you meant here, but it still sounds rather silly to say that anarchism would be overthrown in favour of democracy, considering anarchy is basically the purest form of democratic rule, after all. :)

[/offtopic]

I meant for the liberal to apply to both capitalism and democracy.:thumbup1:

[Kukulofori]

Au contraire! Let us say we achieve a revolution, and the United States turns into the United Federation of Communes. Were one of these communes to somehow turn capitalist, and begin to experience a desire to expand and restore the old United States, the other communes could band together and stop the rogue commune from getting any further.

If they did. What happens if someone manages to get an army started and takes over by force? I'm not talking about just capitalism here, I mean they'd start a state.




Where do you live? Maybe some members here live near you, and can provide information. You can always try googling as well. You might find something that way.

Anyway, enjoy your stay here, and I hope you stick around and learn!

Appleton, WI

What would I google?

[#FF0000]

If they did. What happens if someone manages to get an army started and takes over by force? I'm not talking about just capitalism here, I mean they'd start a state.

The question you're asking can be applied to any new social order. For example, in a democracy, what is keeping someone from gathering an army and making himself king?

Now, such a thing could certainly happen, but people today are not likely to join the army of the next pretender they happen to stumble across. If a person today would think about joining an army that is going to be used to turn the wheel of history back, so to speak, then you can bet that some serious shit is going on. People are not going to just change the way things work without a damn good reason. That's a problem with humans. Far too sluggish to action until the situation gets serious.

The situation you're talking about is only likely to happen in very dire situations in which people not only lose faith in the system, but lose their class consciousness. So long as people are comfortable and have that sense of class consciousness, I don't think there's any reason for them to decide to rise up and form another state.

[Decolonize The Left]

Do we have a plan? It's nice to talk here about how awesome socialism would be but that won't amount to anything unless it gets set into motion.

There are many "plans." Ultimately, plans are all well and fine, but all that matters in terms of material reality is the raising of class consciousness.

It is the people which will launch the revolution - the working class which will engage in this battle - not "plans." All that matters is drawing individuals attention to the realities of class oppression and capitalist exploitation.

The working class forms solidarity and rises up together. That is the plan - it is achieved through class consciousness.


In an anarchist society, what's to prevent the formation of new states, etc?

There is nothing to prevent this other than the people. You must understand that in a theoretical anarchist society, the people have decided upon enacting said society - hence it is contrary to their values and material realities to form a new state.

- August