Communism for Dummies - Compiled list of communist excuses:

[kelvin90701]

Here is my compiled list of why Communism failed as I understand them from Commies:

1) It is too complicated to explain.

2) We still tinkering with a workable model, or in other words were gonna make it more complicated.

3) We were sabotaged by capitalist. Like it took capitalist to teach Russian CCCP and Chinese Maoist how to be corrupt.

4) Denial? What failure? The CCCP and China were not really communist.

5) Accusations towards failed coutries, "They are traitors."

Did I miss anything?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Did I miss anything?

yeah, communism

[redstar2000]

"...as I understand them..."

And therein lies your problem, kelvin90701. Understanding is something that cannot be taught to those unwilling to make the effort.

:cool:

[peaccenicked]

1. Communism is easy it is against stupidity.
2.Capitalism is not working, it is destroying humanity.
3. All corruption Stalinist or capitalist is the enemy of humanity.
4. Communism will always be a failure until the last oppressed person is free.
5. Betrayal has indeed the main problem of the workers movement. We know much better how to spot them.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:16 am on April 3, 2003)

[thursday night]

Socialism has not failed in Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam...

[hazard]

I would like to formally address the issue of Russia and CHina.

Before I do this, however, I would like to point out that China is still admittedly COMMUNIST, despite what the right wing media so blatantly lies about. Its all in the language. At worse, China has a slightly modified communist system. Sort of like a modified free enterprise system. If you believe what these rags of papers report, you'd think that CHina is already waving the stars and stripes overhead. Now that that has been handled.

Russia, on the other hand, is a whle other matter. It is very difficult to dispute the collapse of the soviet empire. I mean we all saw the collapse of the berlin wall, right? Then again, I saw Wag the Dog, but this is not my point. Lets just pretend that the USSR did collapse. Now, how long do you think it will take to change? According to you free enterprise lovin fascists, the change is instantaneous. Like Optimus Prime transforming from a rig to a robot. You go to bed, wake up the next morning and the next thing you know you're eating cheerios and drinking tang and reading the free enterprise press. I don't think so. It will take decades before the capitalist model can be introduced in any meaningful way into russia. And before that time, there is always the chance of liberating the social model back into a communist one. Popular opinion in russia, right now, is vastly in favour of restoring the communist government. Yet you claim that communism, as applied to russia, failed. Sure.

And still CHina is being cited as a failure. Can you really be so naive? China is still a fully functioning communist nation. Russia is on the verge of restoring a communist government. Then you got Cuba, Korea and all of the socialist loving europeans. The odd man out here is the USA. And by my score, they're not only losing, they've already lost.

[peaccenicked]

Socialism does not equal a glorified wefare state, no matter that must be defended. Socialism does not equal beseiged isolated one party states no matter how much their national soveriegnty should be defended.
Socialism is best defined as the ending of all poverty for that, dear comrade, we need the vast resources of this planet.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:37 am on April 3, 2003)

[Pete]

Kelvin. Research your beloved system for your self. And then research communsim. And then read a book called The Real World of Democracy by Macpherson. Then tell come back and make a dumbass post.

[Liberty Lover]

China is still a fully functioning communist nation.

Some aspects of Chinese society are still communist...such as:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/tspic1.jpg

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/tspic2.jpg

But for the most part China is a capitalist country:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/Shanghai.jpg

[hazard]

ll:

whatever

say, where did that post go where you had the pic of the dude who was protesting the protesting?

I can't find it anywhere

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Lover, your posts makes no sense. Care to explain, Lover? How is a dead bloody guy copmmunistic, Lover? How is tanks rolling down the street communistic, Lover? How is a skyline capitalistic, lover?

I felt like using "lover" excesively, sorry, I found it amusingly disturbing.

[hazard]

victor:

I tried to say all of things when I said "whatever"

u said it a whole helluva lot better

thanks

[peaccenicked]

Now I truly understand how a raving right wing lunatic
can be spotted.

[Liberty Lover]

How is a dead bloody guy copmmunistic, Lover? How is tanks rolling down the street communistic, Lover?


They are indicative of communisms ability to kill millions and illegitimately use power to instill fear and remain in control of a population.


Lover? How is a skyline capitalistic, lover?

How is war militaristic? How is money capitalistic? Think about it. Skylines indicate the accumulation of wealth expereinced by capitalist socities. One of the buildings even has "JCV" on it.

[peaccenicked]

Deluded lateral thinking? Perhaps.
Not your classical Aristotlean or everyday sort of logic.

[Show me the Money]

Kelvin:
those saying that are traitors ;-)

[Cassius Clay]

Liberty Lover China is NOT Communist, Socialist or anyhing remotlty left-wing. It is a Fascist state and has been for decades.

The people who were massacred at Tinamen were carrying portraits of Mao, the people who gave the order to fire are rich Capitalists. Simple as that.

But you come up with this rubbish, 'Everything bad in China, result of Communism. Everything good result of Capitalism'.

Infact the massacre is more common in freedom loving Capitalist societies. See Chile, Salvador, Argentina etc etc.

[mentalbunny]

Hazard, I disagree with you about China, China is a mess, look at all the abuses of Human Rights, they've got one of the worst records in the world, I would not call them Communist or succesful.

Russia's confusing, I don't know enough about it.

The problem with Cuba is that it isn't democratic, but apart form that it seems fairly succesful.

What communism needs is a different mind-set to capitalism, a vastly different mind-set. The problem with it is that this mindset is quite easily corrupted by capitalism at the moment, but in the future, as capitalism reveals it's flaws then the left will become stronger and people will realise that there is much more to life than money, there is a more spiritual kind of well-being, to do with fulfilling yourself mentally and feeling the warm glow of co-operation, rather than the kind of fulfillment from a fat pay check and winning the financial race.

People are realising this, slowly but surely, and when more secrets come out about this corrupt war then people will see ever more flaws. As seen from the recent protests, the youth in Britain is not as apathetic as assumed, and this will spread.

[thursday night]

Cuba is very democratic. I am writing a very long post to this forum totally dedicated to the Cuban Revolution and I will adress the democracy issue in it. Stay tuned to OI. ;)

[Wolfie]

Chinas genaral working ethic is still very much socialist, but the chinese communist party is mostly corrupted by big US businesses wanting to use chinas cheap labour.

[mentalbunny]

Sorry for getting that wrong Thursday night, but I thought there hadn't been any elections since Castro took power? I guess it can be democratic in other ways, like actually deciding stuff as opposed to who leads.

[Anonymous]

1-COMMUNISM IS A ECONOMIC THEORY.. it does not entirely depends on its good or bad aplication in the past or present.. it doesnt fail, the people do...

2-WE DONT HAVE TO PERMANENTALY APOLOGIZE FOR THE ERRORS OF THE PAST! because if we had to all german, japanese, turkish etc etc etc citzens had to be apologizing for theyr countrys mistakes and errors in the past... what is done done is, we can only do it bether or not...

3-OUR IDEOLOGIES STAND CORRECT THROUGH THE AGES! while capitalism often drift from fascism, to nazism, passing trhough severe fanatism and then to libertarian "democracy", our economical theorys stand alone, we do not need to chanmge anything in socialism, the only thing that changed is the aplication of the theorys...

4-YOUR PROPAGANDA CANT HURT US! idiotic remarks as "the soviets eated children during the german assault on Leningrade" and "communists like to kill people becuase they opose them" dont afect us... and idiotic remerks as "CCCP did it this way, then all commies must think it must be done this way" arent helping you either...
when debating separate propaganda from facts...
and then try not to be a damn factualist because as a comrade from "soviet-empire.com" said "factualism kills"...


(Edited by the anarchist at 10:20 pm on April 3, 2003)


(Edited by the anarchist at 10:21 pm on April 3, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

Communism is still alive in our world though, and its symbol is one of towering construction as Liberty Lover's is of capitalism:

There are some pictures of housing estates, however they don't seem to link.

http://www.yunkai.de/stories/northkorea/page1/night.jpg

http://members.fortunecity.com/mcdeil69/dprk/mansudaehill.jpg

http://members.fortunecity.com/mcdeil69/dprk/ryugyong.jpg

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:57 pm on April 3, 2003)


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 11:00 pm on April 3, 2003)


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 11:16 pm on April 3, 2003)

[Pete]

Department of Love is a large pyramid.

[Liberty Lover]

The people who were massacred at Tinamen were carrying portraits of Mao


No they were not. They were carrying pictures of Hu Yaobang and a 10-metre white plaster statue called the goddess of democracy, modled after the Statue of Liberty.

[hazard]

mentalbunny:

peacenicked menationed aristotealean logic, and I now bring the father into the fray

"Doubt all that can be doubted", rene descartes

There is so much about what I have been told about China that can be doubted, including all accounts of atrocity, maltreatment and human rights violations. Simply, one must look to the source. The information we receive, be it through the capitalist "free" press, the capitalist controlled television stations or capitalist teaching tools, such as videos and text books, is all to be dismissed in one sweeping motion. USeless lies.

As such, I cannot confirm or deny the validty of any statement that paints any communist nation as being guilty of the things the capitalists claim them to be. Based upon the theory of communism, however, simple logic dictates my own conclusion.

The capitalists readily admit these nations are communist. However, in admitting this, they portray these nations in non-communist ways, ie. human rights violations.

So, these nations are either not communist and thus the capitalists are liars, or they are communist and not guilty, and thus the capitalists are again liars. Either way, I doubt all that they say.

[Cassius Clay]

''No they were not. They were carrying pictures of Hu Yaobang and a 10-metre white plaster statue called the goddess of democracy, modled after the Statue of Liberty.''

A small minority were, these people also protested in 1975 and nothing happened to them. All they wanted was Deng to embrace full Capitalism (and the 'democratic' rights that European and American people are entitled to). However the vast majority were protesting against 'Corruption' of the leaders, they shouted 'Mao's son died in Korea' in reference to the fact that 28 out of 29 millionaires in China under 30 were sons of party officials. They were also 'Ready for another Cultural Revolution' (most were students) which would of probably meant liqudading the leadership.

[Liberty Lover]

Cassius Clay,

I have studied the events surrounding the Tiananmen Square Massacre in depth and this is the first time I have heard that the students were maoists. I was always of the understanding that the protest was one for democracy. It would make sense that this was the case as the uprest started on the day of democracy advocate Hu Yaobang's funeral. Also, the few maoists in the Chinese Communist party were opposed the the protests. They blamed it on Deng's economic reforms and used it to push their case for a halt to the capitalist transformation of the Chinese economy.

[hazard]

liberty:

what country is being referred to in your signature? and what principles does that country stand for

bet the principles that country will claim to stand for aren't the principles they really stand for

they'll probably say liberty, truth and freedom

they probably stand for slavery, lies and corruption

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from hazard on 9:27 am on April 4, 2003
liberty:

what country is being referred to in your signature? and what principles does that country stand for

bet the principles that country will claim to stand for aren't the principles they really stand for

they'll probably say liberty, truth and freedom

they probably stand for slavery, lies and corruption

The country being refered to in my sig. is the country Paul Wolfowitz belongs to. You don't even know who he is? LOL Your're an even bigger idiot than I first suspected.

The principles of the country are "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 9:35 am on April 4, 2003)

[Pete]

Paul Wolfowitz in 1991 proposed the pre-empitive unilaterial forgien policy that George Bush Jr. is using today. It was not accepted by Bush Sr or Clinton becuase they had heads on their shoulders and respected international law that shred more than Dubya does. He is one of the people that is refered to when we say 'damn americans'.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 11:44 pm on April 3, 2003
Department of Love is a large pyramid.


Actually it is Ryuqyong hotel. I know that you are referring to 1984. In my opinion George Orwell is an ultra-left social democratic bourgeois. And his opinions are worth very little.

[Pete]

I was just making sure I had the building right ;)

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 1:35 am on April 4, 2003


The people who were massacred at Tinamen were carrying portraits of Mao


No they were not. They were carrying pictures of Hu Yaobang and a 10-metre white plaster statue called the goddess of democracy, modled after the Statue of Liberty.


Actually, I have seen photos in capitalist history books showing the protesters carrying photos of Mao, AK47 might like to find it for me?

And the Russians did eat children during the Leningrad siege, since it was the only source of protein after all the rats died.

(Edited by Moskitto at 8:14 pm on April 4, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 7:01 pm on April 4, 2003
I was just making sure I had the building right ;)


Never have I heard such incomprehensible comments. George Orwell is bourgeois, guilty of bourgeois thought, in that he denies class struggle and the dictatorship of the proletariat. Therefore he is an enemy of working class though, thus a reactionary as he denies the progression of the masses.

This is evident in his constant offences on working socialism in the 40's at a time when capitalism and imperialism plagued the world as it does not. I cannot fathom the behaviour of such an individual. Furthermore he claims to be a 'democratic socialist' as if to suggest that socialism is not inherently democratic; clearly a traitor to the precise theory that Marx pointed out and Lenin elucidated with 'socialism is 100 times more democratic than capitalism'.

George Orwell's book 1984 is nothing more than farce; the Julia, Winston relationship is akin to a relationship of one man to a prostitute. This demonstrates the immorality of that degenerate. He takes socialism out of context and perverts it, which untimately only tars the name of socialism. He is in essence a bourgeois propagandist. I do not portray any anger in writing, but you can be assured that there is much for this man.

My point is that the 'department of Love' or ministry of love as it is correctly known (and podanticly you should be referring to the ministry of Truth. I do not mind though, I understand the comment) is not relevant to anything as it is a perversion of the mass struggle, and thus is irrelevant in history.

Simply put, such criticisms of the DPRK are bourgeois and irrelevent.

[Liberty Lover]

It was not accepted by Bush Sr or Clinton becuase they had heads on their shoulders and respected international law

The same respect for International Law that led them to sit back and watch the Kurds and Shiite's get plowed down by Saddam's gunships?

The same respect for International Law that led them to sit back and watch a million Tutsi's get massacred by Hutu's during the Rwandan genocide?

Is that the respect fo International law you are talking about?

[Blibblob]

How about modern international law. Take down Iraq, but leave the Israilis alone. The ones who whenever something bad happens in Jerusalem, the run through with a buldozer and destroy innocend civilians homes in Palistine. It's their people. Isnt that one of the largest reasons, that Saddam killed his people? I find Israel full of terrorists. But when are we gonna invade them? How about not, because it doesnt relate to our intrests. Screw the rest of the world, you can all suffer another black plauge, but if it doesnt mess with us, fuck you.

[Liberty Lover]

the run through with a buldozer and destroy innocend civilians homes in Palistine.

They destroy the homes of terrorists.

But when are we gonna invade them?

When they become a totalitarian dictatorship that is a threat to American security...In other word's, never.

[abstractmentality]

The same respect for International Law that led them to sit back and watch the Kurds and Shiite's get plowed down by Saddam's gunships?

The same respect for International Law that led them to sit back and watch a million Tutsi's get massacred by Hutu's during the Rwandan genocide?

Is that the respect fo International law you are talking about?

actually, from what i understood through last quarters International Relations course, in times of crimes against humanity with specific relation to genocide or mass murder, a countries sovereignty is basically transparent, and other countries can "legally" go in to help.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 12:33 am on April 5, 2003

actually, from what i understood through last quarters International Relations course, in times of crimes against humanity with specific relation to genocide or mass murder, a countries sovereignty is basically transparent, and other countries can "legally" go in to help.

?

"No state or group of states has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other state. Consequently, armed intervention and all other forms of interference or attempted threats against the personality of the state or against its political, economic and cultural elements, are in violation of international law."

Declaration on priciples of International Law concerning Friendly Relations Co-operation among states inaccoradance with the charter of the United Nations.

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 5:32 pm on April 4, 2003

"No state or group of states has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other state. Consequently, armed intervention and all other forms of interference or attempted threats against the personality of the state or against its political, economic and cultural elements, are in violation of international law."

Declaration on priciples of International Law concerning Friendly Relations Co-operation among states inaccoradance with the charter of the United Nations.

"Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III." - Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Approved and proposed for signature and ratification or accession by General Assembly resolution 260 A (III) of 9 December 1948 entry into force 12 January 1951, in accordance with article XIII (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm)

"...that human rights should be protected by the rule of law"
(http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm)

look to Yugoslavia for an example of it in action.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 7:48 pm on April 4, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

look to Yugoslavia for an example of it in action.

Wasn't action in Yugoslavia intiated by NATO because the security council failed to act?

Also, why did the UN condemn the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia as illegal? The Vietnamese said that they were intervening for humanitarian reaons, yet the UN said that was no justification.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 4:26 am on April 5, 2003)

[antieverything]

...doesn't that big-ass North Korean pyramid hotel have so many structural problems that it isn't used?

[Pete]

Wasn't action in Yugoslavia intiated by NATO because the security council failed to act?

Actually there where many countries in Bosnia and other areas before NATO. NATO only officialy went when America did, but Canadian, Italian (i believe), British (i believe) and French (i believe) peace keepers where already there. My world issues teacher put it like this: "There was no great economic need for America to go into the former Yugoslavia, yet all of a sudden everyone was there, hell even we [canadians] where there, so America had to go"

[abstractmentality]

LL:
"Laws concerning human rights date back to the Nuremberg trials. Beyond the war crimes committed by German officers were acts of genocide.... Clearly this ranked among the most wicked crimes ever committed, yet it did not violate either international law or German law. The solution was to creat a new category of legal offenses-crimes against humanity-under which those responsible were punished. The category was not applied again until 1994-1995, when the tribunal for the former Yugoslavia handed down indictmens for genocide." -Joshua S. Goldstein, International Relations, fifth edition, p. 297

[Sirion]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 12:12 am on April 5, 2003
the run through with a buldozer and destroy innocend civilians homes in Palistine.

They destroy the homes of terrorists.


So, basically, you say that a palestine is a terrorist because he is a palestine?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 5:16 am on April 3, 2003

How is a dead bloody guy copmmunistic, Lover? How is tanks rolling down the street communistic, Lover?




They are indicative of communisms ability to kill millions and illegitimately use power to instill fear and remain in control of a population.


Lover? How is a skyline capitalistic, lover?

How is war militaristic? How is money capitalistic? Think about it. Skylines indicate the accumulation of wealth expereinced by capitalist socities. One of the buildings even has "JCV" on it.


http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/images/4237n069.jpg

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/vietphotos/18.jpg.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/08/06/hiroshima.anniversary/story.hiroshima.ruins.afp.jpg

my responce to that bull shit...

(Edited by AK47 at 9:40 pm on April 6, 2003)