patriotism - bad, bad, bad?

[communard resolution]

While I don't feel particularly patriotic for any of the countries I have lived in, some non-political people whom I know find it normal to feel moderately 'patriotic' about their country. I find that in most cases their patriotism is fairly harmless: they like the shores they come from, their language, food, perhaps music, etc. They don't hate people from other countries.

Because their patriotism seems harmless to me, I let them. I see no point in patronising them along the lines of "Marx said the working class has no fatherland" because a) they wouldn't care and b) they would wonder why I make such a big deal of something that to them is just a positive emotion and nothing else.

I really like Italy. I like the food, the architecture (old and new), the language, the music, the climate. I know very nice people from there. Every time I go to Italy, the moment I cross the border I get very enthusiastic. I love that country and I find its 'vibe' preferable to the 'vibe' in some other countries. So I imagine if I had grown up in Italy and felt the same way about it, that would probably make me somwhat of a patriot - bad, bad, bad?

If this sounds very naive, it's probably because it is - hence 'learning' section.

I'd like to emphasise that I detest nationalism and racism as well as obnoxious, compulsively flag-waving patriotism.

[GPDP]

I myself don't feel there is anything wrong with what you describe. I think it is fairly natural to love one's cultural heritage, the land from whence they originate, etc.

It is when these feelings turn towards blind nationalism, and develop into xenophobia or even superiority over other peoples of the world that patriotism becomes truly damaging.

[Die Neue Zeit]

What about sports?

[Trystan]

What about sports?

Games between neighboring nations can be very nasty affairs. Damn, there was even a war started over one.

[communard resolution]

What about sports?

Hmm... as for football/soccer, I support Croatia. I'm not from there, but I go there sometimes due to family circumstances. I like it there (except for all the young neo-Ustashe who are a real pest and a threat), so probably some subconscious form of mild "patriotism" there, as in: positive emotional connotations.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Games between neighboring nations can be very nasty affairs. Damn, there was even a war started over one.

For me, that basically means there are problems with Canada-Russia/Soviet and Canada-USA hockey matchups.

[Wanted Man]

'Normal' patriotism doesn't just 'turn into' nationalism by magic, it's connected. You say you're proud of Italy, but who else is? Just now, I'm reading about the AC Milan goalkeeper who openly proclaims himself to be a fascist. And we previously had the Italian defence minister, who said that fascism wasn't all bad, and the Rome mayor, who was elected and then held a Nuremberg-style rally where he was hailed with 'duce, duce!' Italy is currently engaging in extremely racist efforts against immigrants, against Roma people, against Romanians, etc. The Berlusconi government, composed of quarter-, semi- and whole fascists, must certainly have played upon patriotic feelings to get where it is today, and its policies must have some broad support. It would be naive to think that all proud Italians are only proud because pizza tastes good.

Again, I'm not saying that a bit of 'pride' (an often-used fascist rallying cry, by the way) is the same thing as racism. But the connection is certainly there. The Netherlands are no different. Especially the new Proud of the Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_of_the_Netherlands) movement is drawing heavily on traditional Dutch parochialism and provincialism, sentiments which have always served the populist right. Its leader Rita Verdonk said in her opening speech: "There is a strong 'down-with-us' current which has for years been leading us to believe that our culture doesn't exist anymore. And it thinks that our norms and values are inferior to that of other cultures. They put our St. Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas) celebration up for discussion and they want slavery monuments everywhere to put us in a bad light."

Here she is not even uttering racist propaganda (although some have interpreted "they" and "them" to mean all immigrants, instead of the usual "political correctness" scapegoat), but simply drawing upon very common Dutch folklore: first of all, the St. Nicholas celebration, which involves a 'blackface' caricature of a slave. Now, I don't approve of the screeching hysterics who want St. Nicholas banned as 'racist'. But Verdonk is only slating "them" for putting it up for discussion. Something similar happened recently, when a left-wing anti-racist group wanted to put St. Nicholas up for discussion by means of an exposition in a museum. However, the museum got a lot of threats from right-wingers, so they unilaterally cancelled it.

Secondly, of course, she says that "they" want slavery monuments everywhere. Again, it's a dangerous precedent if this kind of thinking takes over: the idea that any memorial of the horrible things that Dutch imperialism has inflicted on the world must be combatted because it endangers patriotic sentiment. Edit: oh, I forgot about another thing. Verdonk also stated that she wants to make a 'code' of Dutch norms, values and traditions. And anyone who doesn't stick to them gets "a return trip to their own country".

The point here is: it's too late to discuss whether 'patriotism' is bad, the battle is already occuring. The right wing is currently creating a climate where any discussion of the historical past can be nipped in the bud by violence, or the mere threat of it. The St. Nicholas exposition (which didn't call for bannings or shit like that) just happens to be the first victim, the first careful dissent against folksy patriotism that has been shut down by rabid nationalists. The traditional scapegoat of "political correctness" has been run out of town, and any 'leftists' who still invoke it to justify patriotism are outdated. Now, everyone has to be patriotically correct. The left must now, more than ever, fight for internationalism, and expose the parochial, provincial, folk-mythical sentiment that is consciously being used to strengthen racist attitudes in the conservative 'common sense' underbelly.

By the way, it's not just the area of the far right, either. A while ago, the prime minister Balkenende (a centrist Christian-Democrat) said that the Netherlands should show more of a "VOC mentality". Now, the VOC means the East-Indies Company, which brutally imposed Dutch colonialism on Indonesia. In doing so, Balkenende invoked the folk myth of the Dutch 'explorers', 'seafaring nation', etc. In a similar myth, we are taught that ordinary privateers who plundered ships in imperialist wars were national heroes.

[KurtFF8]

Games between neighboring nations can be very nasty affairs. Damn, there was even a war started over one.

They can also be alternative expressions of competition between nations. I believe there was also a war averted or ended over a soccer game. (Or Football for those who hate the term soccer :) )

[communard resolution]

You say you're proud of Italy, but who else is?Hold on! I'm not proud of Italy, I'm not even Italian nor do I live there. I just happen to really like the way that country looks, sounds, and feels. I get very excited when I enter Italy. So I reckon *if* I had grown up there and felt the same way about it (happy to return to Italy every time I went somewhere else), that would probably make me *somewhat* of a patriot as in "getting a kick out of the particular combination of language, architecture, climate, music and food that this place has to offer".

I don't think I would be "proud to be Italian", though. That's a different emotion that is more akin to a feeling of superiority.

[Wanted Man]

Okay, I see your point. Thanks for the clarification. That kind of thing does make sense. To me, internationalism doesn't mean a desire to turn all of Europe into a monolithic blandscape. What did you think of the rest of the post?

[communard resolution]

Okay, I see your point. Thanks for the clarification. That kind of thing does make sense. To me, internationalism doesn't mean a desire to turn all of Europe into a monolithic blandscape. What did you think of the rest of the post?

I agree one hundred per cent with the rest of your post. I'm also well aware that 'patriotism' is often used as a code for nationalism, racism, anti-communism, and other such unpleasant things.

I was just wondering whether the common house-and-garden patriotism is necessarily something to be condemned and fought since I cannot imagine being Italian (which I'm not) and not feel somehow 'patriotic' about that place. Another factor that enters the equation is that different countries do 'feel' differently, and that is not due to artificially drawn borders. I know that 'culture' is a very delicate subject, but how else do you refer to what I described I liked about Italy? The combination of climate, architecture, language, etc give the place a specific 'energy', for lack of a better word, which results in a specific culture, again for a lack of a better word. And that 'culture' I happen to find very pleasant, enjoyable, and energising.

So... is all patriotism the same?

[Herman]

We should kill all culture and redesign humanity to be emotionless. There, all equal! Isn't that what communism is about?

[communard resolution]

We should kill all culture and redesign humanity to be emotionless. There, all equal! Isn't that what communism is about?

I don't understand what you are trying to imply with this remark. Would you like to elaborate?

[Wanted Man]

Well, of course, you can't just get attitudes out of people's heads, especially not with sanctimonious preaching about internationalism while condemning them. Even I always love that moment when my train enters Amsterdam. Although it's funny how attitudes have changed within just a few centuries of having a nation-state. When the Amsterdam station building (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Amsterdamcentral.jpg) and the Rijksmuseum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksmuseum_Amsterdam) were built, many people felt that they were plump, monastery-like buildings, crude, reactionary throwbacks to Catholic gothic and renaissance architecture, in resistance against the Enlightenment. But I guess one can get used to anything. And now they're part of our 'culture'. See how hollow that kind of thing is? Italy wasn't even unified for a long time, yet now many people love its culture (I like a lot of things about Italy too).

Anyway, to get back to the subject. I don't think that kind of sentiment is necessarily 'bad', but it doesn't exist in a vacuum either. It's just that the nationalists do try to infuse people with a nationalist kneejerk reflex. Like, say, when the train enters Amsterdam, and you see the beautiful buildings. You can think: "Well, that's beautiful." But how about: "We need to protect these beautiful exponents of our culture from Moroccan street terrorists and other Islamic invaders"? Of course, this is a very extreme statement, that I doubt anyone would make. But nationalists and even just plain conservatives do demand national security, and they do propagate an inward-looking, parochial attitude towards the world. A healthy dose of internationalism is the best reply.

[communard resolution]

When the Amsterdam station building (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Amsterdamcentral.jpg) and the Rijksmuseum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksmuseum_Amsterdam) were built, many people felt that they were plump, monastery-like buildings, crude, reactionary throwbacks to Catholic gothic and renaissance architecture, in resistance against the Enlightenment.

Yeah, the only piece of architecture I like about my hometown Warsaw (I don't live there anymore) is the Palace of Culture. Every other Warsawian hates that building because it was a present from Stalin. They all think it's pig-ugly, but I think it looks fucking amazing. I also feel emotional about it because that's where I saw my first movie in cinema when I was a kid. So to me, the Palace of Culture is the highlight of Warsawian culture even though the majority of people would love to see that box removed.


And now they're part of our 'culture'. See how hollow that kind of thing is? Italy wasn't even unified for a long time, yet now many people love its culture (I like a lot of things about Italy too).True. The South feels different to the North. Come to think of it, I don't like Rome. So maybe I actually like cities rather than countries.

I can see what you're saying in the rest of your post, but could it just be that it's nationalists using and abusing people's positive emotions about something? Maybe there's nothing wrong with the emotion as such?

Let's say you feel that Amsterdam has a lot of beautiful women (I'm not claiming you do, it's just a random example).
If someone asked you, you would tell them: "There are a lot of beautiful women in Amsterdam".
A fascist will say: "There are a lot of beautiful women in Amsterdam. We must protect them against immigrants because immigrants -and Muslims in particular- are often rapists".

Does that make your postive feelings about women in Amsterdam a bad thing that is only a few steps away from racism?

[Yehuda Stern]

I'm going to have to get more theoretical here - Nero, in my opinion what you describe that you like in Italy isn't really patriotism. I love a lot of things about the USA, but I'll be damned if I'm an American patriot.

Patriotism, however, is reactionary, as is any other nationalism. But there's a bit of a difference between the patriotism of a person living in an imperialist country and that of a person living in an oppressed country. Imperialist patriotism expresses the support for the subjugation of the world by the great powers, but the patriotism of the oppressed expresses a desire for freedom. Either one is in the end reactionary and incompatible with Marxism, but it's still important to note the difference between them.

[spice756]

No I don't think so:( patriotism ia supporter of one own country and well nationalism is excessive devotion to one own nation and may support views that the country is superior to all others.


just happen to really like the way that country looks, sounds, and feels. I get very excited when I enter Italy

A little nationalism here!! You seem to like that country.So you like Italians ? I don't think it is racist unless you hate other race or other races.

I know in school kids like to go out with spanish girls and like the spanish culture, I don't think that is racist unless they hate other race or races.

Well anyways I think there is a better thread on understanding what is patriotism and nationalism some where here.

[Zurdito]

affection for a place is not the same as patriotism. patriotism is the belief in working to further the interests of a particular state, and to unite the nationality across class lines.

liking the culture of a country and having a special affection for its people is not patriotism.

[spice756]

Patriotism, however, is reactionary, as is any other nationalism. But there's a bit of a difference between the patriotism of a person living in an imperialist country and that of a person living in an oppressed country. Imperialist patriotism expresses the support for the subjugation of the world by the great powers, but the patriotism of the oppressed expresses a desire for freedom. Either one is in the end reactionary and incompatible with Marxism, but it's still important to note the difference between them.


Cuba has some nationalism and patriotism.But I think it is that they want too be independent not run by the US.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/caroline_b_ellingsen/120381992/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yourpalmike/2245507716/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/picture_addicted/741828251/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photo-imagina/744236063/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/picture_addicted/742070527/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/184986300/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/1073763315/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/1073762145/in/photostream/

[Trystan]

They can also be alternative expressions of competition between nations. I believe there was also a war averted or ended over a soccer game. (Or Football for those who hate the term soccer :) )

Yeah, but for 99% of the time in international football, they're not. I know, I've seen it.

[Zurdito]

can we clear this up, there was no war started over a football game. the honduran government was encouraging hatred to el salvadorian immigrants who were escaping the land crisis in that country, and eventually introduced a "land reform" which gave land used by el salvadorian immigrants to Honduarns, whilst expelling the El Salvadorians. This decision caused El Salvador to declare war.

it is true that before this there was violence in two fotoball games where the fans acted violently towards the visiting team as expressions of their anger towards the neighbour for poltiical reasons, and that this was part of the general build up to the war, and that strong violence by Honduran supporters - based on political not football reasons - was used as a pretext by El Salvador.

however the myth of the "football war" is a sensationalist one which the western
media uses to exoticise latin americans as irrational and capable of anything crazy.

the fact is that all this shit would have happened without football.

As Diego Maradona said, there is violence in society, so don't be surprised when there is violence in football. this doesn't mean the violence comes from the football.

[JimmyJazz]

I don't know about other countries, but American patriotism = nationalism. I don't think I go a week without hearing some person, advertisement, or politician say some variation on the statement, "America is the greatest country in the world". And I have thought about counting the number of American flags I see in a day, but I've never done it, because it would take too much fucking work. All of our public schools require that kids stand facing the flag with their hands over their hearts and swear allegiance to America to start each day.

At the same time, the official line on all of our imperial ventures is that they are part of some grand, internationalist, pro-democracy thing. So it's pretty contradictory.

[Wanted Man]

I can see what you're saying in the rest of your post, but could it just be that it's nationalists using and abusing people's positive emotions about something? Maybe there's nothing wrong with the emotion as such?
Oh, absolutely, I agree. I just wanted to highlight the dangers behind it, and how it can be turned into something much worse by nationalists. But of course, there is nothing wrong with liking a place. Most people love a country or culture without any bad sentiment, without even the awareness of how it can be turned into something uglier. That's fine, socialists just need to be there to make a stand when nationalists do start using such sentiment, and explain the difference between loving a country and actual nationalism.


Let's say you feel that Amsterdam has a lot of beautiful women (I'm not claiming you do, it's just a random example).
If someone asked you, you would tell them: "There are a lot of beautiful women in Amsterdam".
A fascist will say: "There are a lot of beautiful women in Amsterdam. We must protect them against immigrants because immigrants -and Muslims in particular- are often rapists".

Does that make your postive feelings about women in Amsterdam a bad thing that is only a few steps away from racism?
Haha, you managed to think of an even more absurd example than mine. :D

Anyway, I don't think so, like I said above. Although the 'fascist' statement may not actually be that absurd: they do say that the growing muslim population is 'taking our wimmenz'. :laugh:

[communard resolution]

Haha, you managed to think of an even more absurd example than mine. :DI know. When I read it back after posting I was seriously wondering "will this really cut it?" :lol: But it looks like you got what I meant, so it's all good.

From the look of things, I shall be visiting Italy for a week in November, so maybe I can give you a bit of a field report on my impressions of the rise of neo-fascist sentiments when I come back.

[communard resolution]

I don't know about other countries, but American patriotism = nationalism.

I have to say that when I visited the US all I experienced was a sort of "friendly patriotism". People often asked me how I liked it, swiftly followed by the question "would you liked to move here?". I soon found out that they were only happy if I told them that yes, I'd really love to move there. So there was definitely a sense of "America is the greatest country in the world", but at the same time "we're a country of immigrants and we'd really like you to be one of us too." Big difference to some other countries where the mainstream mentality seems to be "stay the fuck out of here, this is ours."

What I found a bit irritating, though, was the way some Americans friends acted when in Europe. Sometimes I got a sense that they thought they were visiting the colonies. They would point at things that were different to what they were used to and comment on them loudly and in public ("this is sooo fucking weird") as if America somehow represented the norm of everything. But you know, no big deal, and maybe it's just a matter of them being extrovert and expressing their feelings with less inhibitions.

[communard resolution]

Patriotism, however, is reactionary, as is any other nationalism.

I take it that by patriotism you mean putting your country over everything, or 'standing up for your country' and defending it no matter what just because it happens to be 'your' country.

Or do you include 'loving your country's cultural heritage, language, architecture, music' etc?

[communard resolution]

Well anyways I think there is a better thread on understanding what is patriotism and nationalism some where here.

I read that thread and the consensus seemed to be that patriotism and nationalism were the exact same, or that at the very least one leads to another. If you read my OP again, you'll see why that thread didn't answer my questions.

[Omi]

A country, is just a set of borders installed by ruling classes through centuries of wars and bloodshed. To say you love a country is saying you love this set of borders. I think that mindset is dangerous.
The correct term would be you love a certain culture, which I do too! I love a lot of cultures, most of which are not bound to a nation's borders. Just look at all the civil wars in africa which are due to the colonial borders, and tribes being caught and split between them.

Patriotism I think is the will to fight for your country, which I think is an absurd thing and should be countered through debate.

[communard resolution]

The correct term would be you love a certain culture

Voila! Here's a simple, concise, and accurate answer to my original question. Problem solved.

[Yehuda Stern]

Cuba has some nationalism and patriotism.But I think it is that they want too be independent not run by the US.

The whole Cuban regime is nationalist, contrary to what many might claim. This nationalism is, on the one hand, reactionary, inasmuch as it is used to perpetuate the control of the Castro-CP bureaucracy. On the other hand, this nationalism still has some progressive content, as Cuba is still a third world country.


I take it that by patriotism you mean putting your country over everything, or 'standing up for your country' and defending it no matter what just because it happens to be 'your' country.

Or do you include 'loving your country's cultural heritage, language, architecture, music' etc?

I'll say it this way - I love many things about Israelis and things that are in Israel, but I hate Israel. I don't love those things because they're Israeli - on the contrary, I find it harder to love them because they are so connected to Israel. So I think that loving things about a country is just fine, as long as this emotion is based not on the fact that it is the country you were born here but on other personal or class motives.

[Omi]

Voila! Here's a simple, concise, and accurate answer to my original question. Problem solved.


Why thank you!;)

[RedScare]

I run into blind patriotism all the time here in the US. It's pretty damn annoying to have people asserting that the United States is the greatest country on the Earth and that our way of governing is the best and only way.

I do like parts of American culture as well as some of the food, the people, the scenery, but neither am I "proud to be an American", because of the all the fucked up stuff the American government has done and still does. What do you call that? Not patriotism....

[black magick hustla]

I'm going to have to get more theoretical here - Nero, in my opinion what you describe that you like in Italy isn't really patriotism. I love a lot of things about the USA, but I'll be damned if I'm an American patriot.

Patriotism, however, is reactionary, as is any other nationalism. But there's a bit of a difference between the patriotism of a person living in an imperialist country and that of a person living in an oppressed country. Imperialist patriotism expresses the support for the subjugation of the world by the great powers, but the patriotism of the oppressed expresses a desire for freedom. Either one is in the end reactionary and incompatible with Marxism, but it's still important to note the difference between them.

Workers have no country, period. Both nationalisms are equally reactionary. The difference you are arguing for is in a moral level - i.e.third world nationalism is not "bad" because clearly, third worlders have it worse and therefore their nationalism is a little bit "better". There is no important distinction in the objective level, because both tie workers to the loyalty of their national bosses.

[Sendo]

The best relief for those annoyed by US nationalism is to go somewhere like Korea where they're just as nationalistic. The difference here is that they're even more isolated and ignorant of the outside world (hard to believe, especially when they're obsessed with emulating the Anglophone world) and extremely homogeneous. At least back home people would be proud of different things. With exceptions, of course, "every" Korean nationalist is proud of every Korean athlete/music star, loves Kimchi, thinks Dokdo/Takeshima is holy and belongs to Korea.

But on the other hand, they are very critical of their government.

Korean nationalism can be very, very hostile and xenophobic, yet also very frank and honest with its own shortcomings (well, only certain ones like politics).

I'd say "patriotism" is love of one's fatherland or whatever. In order to be genuine, it cannot be tied around nation-state identities, nor can it be taught in textbooks or in cultural appreciation classes (Korea loves to teach its kids how to be more "Korean"). It's natural in the same way that loving one's family is. There's lots of things about "America" I love, probably its heterogeneity being high up there. There's lots I hate, of course, but nowhere's perfect (well, I might be happier in Cuba, maybe?) and I feel a "responsibility" or tie to the place. But I don't apply this feeling to all of the US as defined by political maps or geographic ones. Culturally, I can relate much more to Eastern Canadians much more than I can with, say, Californians. The same would apply for rich and not-rich people. It's natural to get along with and feel belonging to a group you've spent time with and share common culture with.

My feelings are not nationalist, however, because I would not place any US national's life before anyone else's. When Team USA goes to the Olympics, I just care about seeing good matches or contests, and personally I think the athletes should be drafted from quotas reflecting the populations of regions and not the wishes of nation-states and compete anonymously. Now, I'm rambling, I'll stop.

[spice756]

If you like a country its people ,music ,food ,way of like you for patriotism .

supporter of own country: a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life.

Patriotism is commonly defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language) patria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria), and Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) patris (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patris&action=edit&redlink=1), πατρίς.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#cite_note-0) However, "patriotism," or the love of one's country, has come to have different meanings over time. Thus, the meaning of patriotism can be highly dependent upon context, geography and philosophy.
Although patriotism is presently used in certain vernaculars as a synonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synonym) for nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism), nationalism is not considered an inherent part of patriotism.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#cite_note-2) Among the ancient Greeks, patriotism is comprised of notions concerning language, religious traditions, ethics, law and devotion to the common good, rather than pure identification with a nation-state.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#cite_note-3) [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#cite_note-4) Scholar J. Peter Euben writes that for the Greek philosopher Socrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates), "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#cite_note-5)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

[JimmyJazz]

I have to say that when I visited the US all I experienced was a sort of "friendly patriotism". People often asked me how I liked it, swiftly followed by the question "would you liked to move here?". I soon found out that they were only happy if I told them that yes, I'd really love to move there. So there was definitely a sense of "America is the greatest country in the world", but at the same time "we're a country of immigrants and we'd really like you to be one of us too." Big difference to some other countries where the mainstream mentality seems to be "stay the fuck out of here, this is ours."

Yes, I guess it might be different from some European nationalism in that way. Although you should see some of the shitty political email forwards I get about rounding up all illegal immigrants, or about cutting off foreign aid to "countries that hate us" (apparently they're unaware of why other countries hate us, or of the fact that we give a smaller percentage of our GNP to foreign aid than any other rich country and that most of it is given for strategic political reasons anyway). There was also a lot of France-bashing back when they refused to take part in the Iraq War, and I remember the cafeterias at the U.S. House of Representatives stopped calling French Fries by that name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries).

No, come to think of it, I don't think American nationalism is really too different from the "stay the fuck out of here". It might be a little szichophrenic in that regard, but it's capable of just as much (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Minuteman_Project_Inc.) "stay the fuck out of here" at intermittent times.

[Yehuda Stern]

Again, Marmot, you're reading the things the way you like to. What you're saying is not what I did but a distortion of what I said. Read back and learn to handle yourself in a debate.