Log in

View Full Version : Against Marx's theory of crisis



Consumariat
27th September 2008, 21:37
Ever since the credit crunch set itself in motion there has been an increase in people speaking absolute nonsence regarding economics. From the right wing press I have heard talk of malthusian cycles, from the left there is talk of inherant issues within the so called 'free market'.

What results is a blame game that tries to simplify the issue as being only the fault of 'spivs and speculators' or 'greedy consumption'. I pose to you that if the economy is ever to be stablised and organised for the benefit of all, then what is required in not to appeal to the dead old theories of the 18th and 19th centuries, but to look at the evidence as it has revealed itself in every boom/bust cycle that has occured to this day.

One major cause of the business cylce is the fractional reserve baking system. For those of you that are not familiar with this, I will briefly outline what it is.

When you deposit money in a bank account, the bank is only required to hold onto a small percentage of that money in its vaults. The majority of your deposit is leant out as credit and loans.

Now, imagine that you deposit $100 in an account and that 90% is permitted to be lent out as credit. That $90 in new money functions to increase the money supply and thus increase prices (inflation). So far this does not seem too much of a problem as long as inflation does not get too high. After all, credit is a perfectly acceptable way of investing in new business and creating genuine wealth, and so benefits society.

But the increase in the money supply does not stop there. that newly created $90 will work its way back into the banking system, which will subsequestly use 90% of it ($81) to lend out as further credit. There is now $271 floating around the economy (mostly as credit), but only $100 of 'real' wealth. This process of credit creation will continue on and on creating new money exponentially until that initial $100 of money has become $1000 of new money created essentially out of thin air.

This vast expansion of credit causes over investment in ventures that will ultimatley fail because regardless of there being lots more money in the economy, this money does not represent real capital wealth (factories, machines, land etc). This misallocation of resources then needs to be corrected, and so market mechanisms force the economy into a downturn.

Secondly (and this is what is happening with the credit crunch), the large supply of money artificially forces down the cost of borrowing, which in turn promotes irresponsible behaviour on the behalf of investers. Combine this with speculation that takes place at the peaks and troughs of the business cylces (the 'spivs' don't get completley let off on this one) you get a system which is marked by volitility.

Thirdly, when banks start to fail, runs on them pose an enourmous danger because most money is not in the vaults. In steps the governments with proposals to nationalise or bail out struggling institutions. Who pays for this eventually? The taxpayer of course; the very public that have been hammered by inflation and economic instability.

What we should be doing is banning the practise of fractional reserve banking and relying on genuine savings for investment. Growth would be slower and city traders would not be able to make a killing on the stock exchange, but the economy would enter an era of stability and long term prosperity.

ÑóẊîöʼn
27th September 2008, 21:49
We shall wait and see, won't we? :marx: The "verdict of history" has yet to be issued.

Consumariat
27th September 2008, 22:02
We shall wait and see, won't we? :marx: The "verdict of history" has yet to be issued.

It seems like you haven't made your mind up yourself

Schrödinger's Cat
27th September 2008, 22:07
Why did you use quotes when starting the thread? Fractional reserve banking is perfectly acceptable within the capitalist definition of a free market. Deceitful practices are supposed to be virtually eliminated through competition. Why should the evil government step in and ban the practice? (Not that I don't think it should)

Fractional reserve banking is within Marxist notions of a disruption in capital->money leading to panic, so I'm confused as to why you're saying this is a new aspect of economic thought. During the eras of free banking in the American West boom and bust cycles were tremendous precisely because currencies and money were so unreliable. Bartering and trade in some parts became more commonplace, but that slowed growth. I think it's interesting that many Austrian schoolers call for a gold standard when gold is where this mess cames from. I tend to side with those economists who think Lincoln's greenback was the best currency ever conceived.

Fractional reserve banking isn't the only thing that creates disruptions in capital->money, though. Failed investments are another. Natural and political disasters. War.

A market can probably be made sustainable, but you would have to push for something along the lines of Proudhons socialist market economy to get it done.

Zurdito
27th September 2008, 22:33
I don't see how this is a refutation of Marx's theory of crisis. If you want to make a serious criticism of someone's theory don't you think you should start by, umm, refering to what they said?

Consumariat
27th September 2008, 22:34
Why did you use quotes when starting the thread?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. The quote marks I put around the phrase "free market" you mean?


Fractional reserve banking is perfectly acceptable within the capitalist definition of a free market

Capitalism takes many forms and is constantly evolving in a subtle way. My criticism of fractional reserve banking comes from an economic position that is itself 'capitalist' by some peoples definition. Not all capitalists agree on what defines the word though.


Deceitful practices are supposed to be virtually eliminated through competition. Why should the evil government step in and ban the practice?

'Supposed to be' according to some people. I am not sure that free competition is the panacea that some would hope. There is no such thing as a universal fix to all problems, sometimes what is needed is a mixture of different systems. Otherwise the risk is that people get bogged down in dogma that becomes nothing more than abstract thinking.


Fractional reserve banking is within Marxist notions of a disruption in capital->money leading to panic, so I'm confused as to why you're saying this is a new aspect of economic thought

I'm not saying that it's a new aspect of thought, just that the media (at least here in the UK) have not been talking about it.


During the eras of free banking in the American West boom and bust cycles were tremendous precisely because currencies and money were so unreliable.

Yes, I don't think free banking would be a good idea without some central body to give the 'seal of approval' to genuine bank notes.


Bartering and trade in some parts became more commonplace, but that slows growth. Gold is where this mess comes from, which is why many economists think Lincoln's greenback was the best currency ever conceived.


True, a gold standard is not the panacea either. There is nothing wrong with fiat currency that is issued at a rate that is in accordance with the real growth of the economy though.


Fractional reserve banking isn't the only thing that creates disruptions in capital->money, though. Failed investments are another. Natural and political disasters. War.

A market can probably made sustainable, but you would have to push for something along the lines of Proudhons socialist economy.


No economic system could ever prevent natural disasters, war or bad investments. But we can at least remove some of the most damaging aspects of our current system.

Consumariat
27th September 2008, 22:36
I don't see how this is a refutation of Marx's theory of crisis. If you want to make a serious criticism of someone's theory don't you think you should start by, umm, refering to what they said?

True, I was originally going to just call the thread 'The banking Crisis' or something similar. Was just trying to get the attention of left wingers though; thought it might spark debate.

Sorry, does that count as trolling?. I appologise if it does :blushing:

Zurdito
27th September 2008, 22:45
True, I was originally going to just call the thread 'The banking Crisis' or something similar. Was just trying to get the attention of left wingers though; thought it might spark debate.

fair enough.


Sorry, does that count as trolling?. I appologise if it does :blushing:

I wouldn't go that far, just don't do it again :trotski:

Consumariat
27th September 2008, 22:53
fair enough.



I wouldn't go that far, just don't do it again :trotski:

Yes Mr zurdito :)

Lynx
27th September 2008, 23:58
I believe full reserve banking would be preferable.

Nusocialist
28th September 2008, 03:53
Wouldn't fractional reserve banking aid Marx's theory of crisis?