Best quotes about capitalism

[JimmyJazz]

**Substantive quotes only please, no Objectivist rhetoric.



I'll start with one by Kent A. Van Til (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=JFXLrjgUvtMC&dq=less+than+two+dollars+a+day%27&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=9JiBavRcPr&sig=wDn93W7awmpm67NjgBb02BEsCFg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result):


...the notion of "distribution" versus "redistribution" is a fiction. There is no pristine state of distribution from which all other arrangements are unjust redistributions. Goods are always flowing. Where would our original state of "distribution" begin? Would it begin before our [sic] European ancestors took the land from the North American Indians? Would it begin before the egregious accounting scandals at Enron that left thousands without pensions? Would it begin before or after various corporations were chartered and patents were issued? Would it begin before we [sic] were born in the United States and [others] were born in Central America? Clearly, there is no such thing as an initial distribution point from which changes are to be regarded as unjust, inasmuch as they are redistribution. This is an ahistorical position that serves as a justification of a status quo that leaves millions without basic necessities.

[Bud Struggle]

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy only when others are fearful.--Warren Buffet


Greed is good.--Gordon Gecko

[EvigLidelse]

TomK, what does that actually have to do with capitalism? ;)

[Nusocialist]

"Capitalism is a social cancer. It has always been a social cancer. It is the disease of society. It is the malignancy of society."
— Murray Bookchin (http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/Encyclopedia/BookchinMurray.htm)
"Personally, I'm in favor of democracy, which means that the central institutions of society have to be under popular control. Now, under capitalism, we can't have democracy by definition. Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control."

-- Noam Chomsky

Anarchists are opposed to violence...The main plank of anarchism is the removal
of violence from human relations. It is life based on the freedom of the
individual, without the intervention of the police. For this reason we
are enemies of capitalism, which depends on the protection of the police
to force workers to allow themsleves to be exploited...We are therefore
enemies of the State, which is the coercive, violent organization of society.

-- Errico Malatesta, Umanita Nova, August,
25, 1921

Nothing can excel a few days in jail to give a young man or woman a quick education in the basis of industrial society.
--Edward Abbey

[JimmyJazz]

^^I've read that Chomsky quote before, it's good.

(the Bookchin one is pretty much rhetoric...)

[Ken]

As long as he is moderately comfortable, the average man will not change his ways. Only when existence becomes utterly intolerable and there is no alternative can he be persuaded to do what he should have done from foresight and through self-discipline at the beginning. That is his unalterable nature, and it is why democracy is such a catastrophe.

[Djehuti]

You know what capitalism is? Gettin fucked! - Tony Montana

[Bud Struggle]

TomK, what does that actually have to do with capitalism? ;)


The quotes explain that Capitalism isn't about discussing things--it is about DOING things.

Besides, what fun would an entire thread only made up of snotty remarks about Capitalism be?
:D

[Gleb]

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men, will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

- John Maynard Keynes

"We can have a democratic society or we can have the concentration of great wealth in the hands of the few. We cannot have both."

- Louis Brandeis

[Bilan]

"Capitalism is like an island of wealth, surrounded by a sea of poverty" - Noam Chomsky

[Bud Struggle]

The best things in life are free
But you can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Your lovin' gives me a thrill
But your lovin' don't pay my bills
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Well now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, I wanna be free
Oh I want money
That's what I want
That's what I want, well
Now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, you need money
now, give me money
That's what I want, yeah
that's what I want---John Lennon

[CaptainCapitalist68]

"Capitalism is a social cancer. It has always been a social cancer. It is the disease of society. It is the malignancy of society."
— Murray Bookchin (http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/Encyclopedia/BookchinMurray.htm)


This is such a stupid quote. It doesn't explain why nor does it explain anything at all. In this stupid dumb quote you can replace th word capitalism with violence, communism, porn, religion.

[Vanguard1917]

'Forces of production and social relations – two different sides of the development of the social individual – appear to capital as mere means, and are merely means for it to produce on its limited foundation. In fact, however, they are the material conditions to blow this foundation sky-high.'
- Marx

[Nusocialist]

This is such a stupid quote. It doesn't explain why nor does it explain anything at all. In this stupid dumb quote you can replace th word capitalism with violence, communism, porn, religion.
It is a quote not an essay. What were you expecting? A doctoral thesis?

[Nusocialist]

Besides, what fun would an entire thread only made up of snotty remarks about Capitalism be?
:DA great thread?

[Trystan]

This is such a stupid quote. It doesn't explain why nor does it explain anything at all.

"The freer the market, the freer the people"

http://www.blogscanada.ca/egroup/content/binary/Pinochet2.jpg

[Plagueround]

The best things in life are free
But you can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Your lovin' gives me a thrill
But your lovin' don't pay my bills
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Well now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, I wanna be free
Oh I want money
That's what I want
That's what I want, well
Now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, you need money
now, give me money
That's what I want, yeah
that's what I want---John Lennon

For it to be a quote from someone, they had to be the first one to say it, and not just be covering it because it was a popular song at the time. Nice try at a jab though.

[Sendo]

For it to be a quote from someone, they had to be the first one to say it, and not just be covering it because it was a popular song at the time. Nice try at a jab though.

Popular at the time? It was a 1959 Motown single.

[Bud Struggle]

Popular at the time? It was a 1959 Motown single.

Oops--I thought it was a Beatles original. :blushing:

[peaccenicked]

Democracy is when the indigent, and not the men of property, are the rulers.
Aristotle


Gold? Yellow, glittering, precious gold? No, gods,
I am no idle votarist. Roots, you clear heavens!
Thus much of this will make black white, foul fair,
Wrong right, base noble, old young, coward valiant.
Ha, you gods! why this? What, this, you gods? Why, this
Will lug your priests and servants from your sides,
Pluck stout men's pillows from below their heads-
This yellow slave
Will knit and break religions, bless th' accurs'd,
Make the hoar leprosy ador'd, place thieves
And give them title, knee, and approbation,
With senators on the bench. This is it
That makes the wappen'd widow wed again-
She whom the spital-house and ulcerous sores
Would cast the gorge at this embalms and spices
To th 'April day again. Come, damn'd earth,
Thou common whore of mankind, that puts odds
Among the rout of nations, I will make thee

Shakespeare Timon of Athens




“That this social order with its pauperism, famines, prisons, gallows, armies, and wars is necessary to society; that still greater disaster would ensue if this organization were destroyed; all this is said only by those who profit by this organization, while those who suffer from it – and they are ten times as numerous – think and say quite the contrary.”
– Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is within You

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

Albert Einstein Why Socialism?

Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class.
Al Capone

[pusher robot]

"Many economic systems have been tried, and will be tried, in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that capitalist institutions are perfect. Indeed, it has been said that capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all of the others that have been tried from time to time."

-Pusher Robot, shamelessly ripping off Winston Churchill

[peaccenicked]

is only Michael Moore who thinks Cuba has got a better health care system that the USA?
I think not
The real truth is that capitalism is a stage in human evolution, and in its advanced form imperialism has provided wealth for First world countries. Revolutions have happened in backward countries, and have been held siege to the economic power of the first world countries. Hence socialism has never been given free reign to develop as it only can as a world wide system build on the backbone of capitalism, to free workers who are the backbone of capitalism.

[Plagueround]

Popular at the time? It was a 1959 Motown single.

The beatles put it on an album in 1963, and were known to sing it before then. :)

[CaptainCapitalist68]

It is a quote not an essay. What were you expecting? A doctoral thesis?

A good quote would explain something.

[Nusocialist]

A good quote would explain something.
A good quote makes you think.

"Beneath the paving stones - the beach!" - Sous les pavés, la plage! - Anonymous graffiti, Paris 1968

[Nusocialist]

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is
impersonal -- that there is no human relation between master and slave."
--Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy

[Plagueround]

Like so many Americans, she was trying to construct a life that made sense from things she found in gift shops. - Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse Five

[RebelDog]

I should say that when people talk about capitalism it's a bit of a joke. There's no such thing. No country, no business class, has ever been willing to subject itself to the free market, free market discipline. Free markets are for others. Like, the Third World is the Third World because they had free markets rammed down their throat. Meanwhile, the enlightened states, England, the United States, others, resorted to massive state intervention to protect private power, and still do. That's right up to the present. I mean, the Reagan administration for example was the most protectionist in post-war American history. Virtually the entire dynamic economy in the United States is based crucially on state initiative and intervention: computers, the internet, telecommunication, automation, pharmaceutical, you just name it. Run through it, and you find massive ripoffs of the public, meaning, a system in which under one guise or another the public pays the costs and takes the risks, and profit is privatized. That's very remote from a free market. Free market is like what India had to suffer for a couple hundred years, and most of the rest of the Third World.

Noam Chomsky

[IcarusAngel]

^^Good quote.

[Sendo]

something about how individuality has been reduced to personalized license plates was good.


also:

“Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.” Cree Indian Proverb

[Bud Struggle]

"Formal education will make you a living, self education will make you a fortune." --Jim Rohn

"What we really want to do is what we are really meant to do. When we do what we are meant to do, money comes to us, doors open for us, we feel useful, and the work we do feels like play to us." --Julia Cameron

“Money, it turned out, was exactly like sex, you thought of nothing else if you didn't have it and thought of other things if you did."--James Arthur Baldwin

"Money was never a big motivation for me, except as a way to keep score. The real excitement is playing the game."--Donald Trump

"A large income is the best recipe for happiness I ever heard of."--Jane Austin

"It is better to have a permanent income than to be fascinating."--Oscar Wilde

"Money can't buy friends, but it can get you a better class of enemy."--Spike Mulligan

"Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons."--Woody Allen

[Schrödinger's Cat]

"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate." - Bertrand Russel

"Political economy came into being as a natural result of the expansion of trade, and with its appearance elementary, unscientific huckstering was replaced by a developed system of licensed fraud, an entire science of enrichment." - Karl Marx

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." - Abraham Lincoln

"A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Howard Scott

“Chicago is the product of modern capitalism, and, like other great commercial centers, is unfit for human habitation.” - Eugene Debs

And this one seems most applicable to today:

“Ten thousand times has the labor movement stumbled and bruised itself. We have been enjoined by the courts, assaulted by thugs, charged by the militia, traduced by the press, frowned upon in public opinion, and deceived by politicians. 'But notwithstanding all this and all these, labor is today the most vital and potential power this planet has ever known, and its historic mission is as certain of ultimate realization as is the setting of the sun.” - Eugene debs

[Bud Struggle]

My favorite:


"A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Howard Scott

I've somehow always thought that.

[CaptainCapitalist68]

"A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Howard Scott

So people like Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Sam Walton, and Hugh Hefner are all criminals? People like this, who are responsible for making America rich and prosperous, you believe are evil?

Capitalist prey on opportunity.

The real criminals are people who vote or make laws which require wealthy people to give up what they have rightfully earned. They are lower then thieves because at least thieves know that taking other people's property by force is wrong.

I bet you would be ok if people seized the property of the rich huh?

[IcarusAngel]

Yeah, that Scott quote is great. Did he hold some leftist beliefs?

I didn't even know Russell directly attacked capitalism before. I knew he was a libertarian-socialist and anarchist, and had written on how tyrannical property is, but not that he directly had something to say about the system of capitalism.

Like always, he sums up the problem brilliantly with his typical lucidity.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Yeah, that Scott quote is great. Did he hold some leftist beliefs?Well, a lot of our members are Technocrats, so it probably wouldn't be too absurd to say he was a leftist. :D


Bill GatesSued competitors into the dust. Enacted software monopolies. Labeled employees "contractors" to get around paying them health care or offering pensions. Uses the Gates Foundation to conduct business without being taxed.


Henry FordSubsidized by state and federal governments. Investment corporations propped up Ford when he met Edison. Busted unions, even voluntary ones.


You can't get it through your thick head that we don't oppose entrepreneurship; we oppose utilizing the state to make money. The corporate business structure is how they do that. Why don't you stop and consider the implications of your statements? Indentured servants worked to acquire slaves. You can praise their work and hate their ownership status. Now stop upholding men as gods and start thinking.

You don't care for entrepreneurship. You want slavery. You want to limit a free society so that people can become billionaires by having the state prop up others. Until you repent for supporting copyrights, patents, fractional reserve banking, limited liability, business personhod, and land rent, you're little better than an apologist for slavery.

[Nusocialist]

"It is better to have a permanent income than to be fascinating."--Oscar Wilde

“Why should [the poor] be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table? They should be seated at the table and are beginning to know it.” Oscar Wilde, The Soul of man under socialism.

[Plagueround]

So people like Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Sam Walton, and Hugh Hefner are all criminals? People like this, who are responsible for making America rich and prosperous, you believe are evil?

As far as I know all those people have engaged in shady business practices that are largely responsible for a lot of the problems we have...except Hef, I don't know much about him. Henry Ford was a big favorite amongst the Nazis, to the point where he accepted a medal from them. Not surprising you would admire him though.


I bet you would be ok if people seized the property of the rich huh?

You don't think the rich have been seizing property by force for a very long time? How do you think property is acquired?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Ford and Gates were the worst of the bunch. During the Progressive Era, especially right through WWI, Ford created a whole department that would "Americanize" its employees. The government already demanded that you not have anarchist/socialist flags, but Ford demanded that his employees speak English (at home), eat American food (everywhere), and decorate their living quarters with American products. After a few weeks if you didn't change, he fired you. We now see something like that coming back into fruition towards smokers.

Big Brother isn't just your government. It's your boss.

People need to stop masturbating to these men. It's disgusting. There are much better inventors out there - like Einstein, and hell - practically every other Silicon Valley guy who Gates shoved down the hole (Linux).

Einstein could have been sitting on bags of gold if he hoarded his theories and inventions for profit.

[Plagueround]

Ford and Gates were the worst of the bunch. During the Progressive Era, especially right through WWI, Ford created a whole department that would "Americanize" its employees. The government already demanded that you not have anarchist/socialist flags, but Ford demanded that his employees speak English, eat American food, and decorate their living quarters with American products. After a few weeks if you didn't change, he fired you.

People need to stop masturbating to these men. It's disgusting. There are much better inventors out there - like Einstein, and hell - practically every other Silicon Valley guy who Gates shoved down the hole (Linux).

Einstein could have been sitting on bags of gold if he hoarded his theories and inventions for profit.


I've still got no dirt on Hefner though. :lol:

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I've still got no dirt on Hefner though. :lol:

Kind of ironic, eh? Outside of incorporating (and being a pig), I'm not aware of Hefner doing anything abnormally deranged. I suspect his success comes from the government taking active role against porn in the '30s and '40s. Then again the man is only worth about $400 million. For capitalists that's child's change. Porn is probably one of the most "free" markets out there thanks to the internet, ironically enough.

[pusher robot]

People need to stop masturbating to these men. It's disgusting. There are much better inventors out there - like Einstein, and hell - practically every other Silicon Valley guy who Gates shoved down the hole (Linux).

1. Einstein was not an inventor, he was a theoretician. Good inventors have a unique ability - to synthesize available theories and research into products that provide economic value to their customers. Edison is not remembered simply because he was able to produce light from electricity. Ford is not remembered because he invented cars. Automobiles, after all, had been around for some time before he came along. Rather, he is remembered for being able to produce cars that worked well and were affordable. As Edison himself so astutely observed: "Anything that won't sell, I don't want to invent. Its sale is proof of utility, and utility is success."

2. Linux was not invented in Silicon Valley, it was created by Linus Torvalds, who lived in Finland. It also was not a unique creation. It was and is simply a free reverse-engineering of Unix, a commercial operating system created by eeeeeevil corporate overlord Bell.


Einstein could have been sitting on bags of gold if he hoarded his theories and inventions for profit.

This part is just LOL funny. What "inventions" of Einstein's could have been so profitable, pray tell us? How exactly do you suppose he could taken the theory of relativity and commercialized it? Einstein was a brilliant man, but his brilliance was in pure science, not commerce.

[Plagueround]

1. Einstein was not an inventor, he was a theoretician.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator

[IcarusAngel]

As usual, Pusher Robot only gets his story half-right.

Linux was based off of Minix, hence the name Linux (just replace "m" with "l", and the second "i" with "u"). Linus Torvalds had been experimenting with Minix but he found the OS to be inadequate to his needs, so he started developing "Linux" in 1991. Linux was originally compiled and bootstrapped under Minix, but by 1992 it was an independent OS and the kernel was combined with the GNU OS to make a complete operating system. By 1993 there was a high rate of code and Linux delegated some of the kernel maintenance to other now well known programmers (i.e. Alan Cox).

In fact, in one of his first usenet postings about Linux, Linus noted he had finally freed it of Minix code [1].

I guess you could say Minix is a descendant of Unix, but Unix was a descendant of Multics. In fact, the reason Ritchie and Thompson developed Unix was because AT&T (Bell Labs) had pulled out of the Multics project as they got cold feet as in 1969 the project was behind schedule.

The market had little to do with it - these were individual contributors and programmers working under auspicies of government backed corporations isolated from market forcers, or for government funded research programs (i.e. Multics). It was only later that companies tried to claim Unix and the *nix variants as their intellectual property, which was disasterous for programming and computer science research, and one of the reasons DOS became so popular because they weren't bogged down in copyright, trademark issues.

In fact, Quick DOS and so on succeeded not just because it was an environment that easily allowed programmers to get work done, but because of the infighting and the problem of standards with all the variants of Unix. Had they been worked out, Unix, clearly superior in a lot of ways, may have succeeded over DOS. Then again, The X window system was a disaster from MIT as well, and still kind of is, so who knows.

[1] “Emergence of Linux” from Wikipedia

[pusher robot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator

Well, I stand corrected - he did collaborate on at least one invention. But what's this? It was patented to obtain a monopoly on the production? The patent was sold for profit to an EVIL CORPORATION? the fact that it was patented and then sold to a refrigeration conglomerate so that said conglomerate could protect their own technology from competition...doesn't that rather prove that Einstein was an EVIL GREEDY BUSINESSMAN that we should heap with scorn and abuse?

Eh, Genecosta?

[IcarusAngel]

Do we have a source for that Russell quote?

[pusher robot]

As usual, Pusher Robot only gets his story half-right.



Half-right? You didn't contradict anything I said, you only added more details that almost nobody care about.



I guess you could say Minix is a descendant of Unix

You guess? Just what is "Minix" short for, anyway?



but Unix was a descendant of Multics

I don't think that's very accurate. Unix "descended" from Multics like cars "descended" from boats. Unix used entirely different design principles than Multics. It borrowed a few superficial similarities here and there, but outside of that it was very different, and it was developed entirely at Bell Labs - I thought every geek knew this.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Well, I stand corrected - he did collaborate on at least one invention. But what's this? It was patented to obtain a monopoly on the production? The patent was sold for profit to an EVIL CORPORATION? the fact that it was patented and then sold to a refrigeration conglomerate so that said conglomerate could protect their own technology from competition...doesn't that rather prove that Einstein was an EVIL GREEDY BUSINESSMAN that we should heap with scorn and abuse?

Eh, Genecosta?

Not evil or greedy, but wrong. Keep in mind that Einstein's essay in defense of socialism was written in 1949, so we have no clue where his ideology was in the '20s and '30s. Regardless, you will rarely see me use "evil and greedy." You didn't see me attack Walton and Hefner, did you? I'm particularly amused at Hefner's path to wealth.

Ford and Gates deserve to be *****ed at, even by capitalists.

The refrigerator wasn't his only invention: http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1991/3/1991_3_34.shtml

[IcarusAngel]

Half-right? You didn't contradict anything I said, you only added more details that almost nobody care about.

You said that Linux comes from Unix. That's not true - it was entirely based off of Minix, and not "Unix."


You guess? Just what is "Minix" short for, anyway?

And Unix is another play on Multics, moron. Plus, Minix also uses a different design philosophy from Unix.


I don't think that's very accurate. Unix "descended" from Multics like cars "descended" from boats. Unix used entirely different design principles than Multics. It borrowed a few superficial similarities here and there, but outside of that it was very different, and it was developed entirely at Bell Labs - I thought every geek knew this.

You obviously have no concept of programming. Unix borrowed entire ideas and concepts from Multics, which is why multics is often called the "father of Unix." Unix has a lot from multics.

It's hilarious getting lectured on technology by the guy who thinks that the internet uses different protocols than TCP/IP. :laugh:

[IcarusAngel]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g87/dblahdx/Unix-history.png

As you can see, Minix is broken off from Unix, as is GNU, which stands for GNU's not Unix, as it's as different as unix is from multics.

Pusher again proves what a retard he is. :laugh:

[pusher robot]

You said that Linux comes from Unix.

Now you're just lying, unless you honestly don't know what "reverse-engineering" means.


It's hilarious getting lectured on technology by the guy who thinks that the internet uses different protocols than TCP/IP.

There are lots of protocols. IP is a nearly universal base protocol, of course. I've never claimed otherwise. TCP is a common transport protocol but UDP is also common. Then you have a myriad of application protocols, like HTTP and FTP and SMTP. Are these not "different protocols?" Are they not "used on the internet?"

[CaptainCapitalist68]

Ford and Gates were the worst of the bunch. During the Progressive Era, especially right through WWI, Ford created a whole department that would "Americanize" its employees. The government already demanded that you not have anarchist/socialist flags, but Ford demanded that his employees speak English (at home), eat American food (everywhere), and decorate their living quarters with American products. After a few weeks if you didn't change, he fired you. We now see something like that coming back into fruition towards smokers.

Big Brother isn't just your government. It's your boss.

People need to stop masturbating to these men. It's disgusting. There are much better inventors out there - like Einstein, and hell - practically every other Silicon Valley guy who Gates shoved down the hole (Linux).

Einstein could have been sitting on bags of gold if he hoarded his theories and inventions for profit.


you don't like the company you work for or your boss then quit. Grow food in your backyard or start off your own business if you don't want to work for no one.

The point is that If you are in someone else's lair, IE their house or factory, then you respect the rules of the house otherwise don't go their period. WHo gives a fuck about people's needs. Whot he fuck says a man is entitle to shit just because he or she exist?

[Plagueround]

you don't like the company you work for or your boss then quit. Grow food in your backyard or start off your own business if you don't want to work for no one.


I'll ignore the established fact that Gene owns a small business he started himself and focus on this instead:


The point is that If you are in someone else's lair, IE their house or factory,Did you just use the term "lair"? Seriously? LAIR? AHAHAHAHAHA? What are we dragons?

And they call us out of touch. :laugh:

then you respect the rules of the house otherwise don't go their period.You know, I'm not some kind of Native American "nationalist", but I always feel the need to say this. If you believe in this view of "my house, my rules" when applied to anything other than someone's actual private home, and this silly notion that people have a claim to land ownership, get the fuck off my land.
Otherwise at least recognize that private property is a bullshit myth, only made reality by coercion and force.



WHo gives a fuck about people's needs. Whot he fuck says a man is entitle to shit just because he or she exist?The funny thing is under your system of "who gives a fuck about others?" you would probably be a slave or someone would have shot you by now.

P.S. You're getting boring.

[CaptainCapitalist68]

I'll ignore the established fact that Gene owns a small business he started himself and focus on this instead:

Did you just use the term "lair"? Seriously? LAIR? AHAHAHAHAHA? What are we dragons?

And they call us out of touch. :laugh:
You know, I'm not some kind of Native American "nationalist", but I always feel the need to say this. If you believe in this view of "my house, my rules" when applied to anything other than someone's actual private home, and this silly notion that people have a claim to land ownership, get the fuck off my land.
Otherwise at least recognize that private property is a bullshit myth, only made reality by coercion and force.


The funny thing is under your system of "who gives a fuck about others?" you would probably be a slave or someone would have shot you by now.

P.S. You're getting boring.

I know and I am not talkign about him. I am simply saying that if a person doesn't like workign for another man then that person should quit period.

Hey you know what, History is full of many killings and bad shit happening. I am sorry capitalism isn't perfect enough to make everything right including the past. Iam sorry capitlism isn't perfect enough to just sweep away all suffering in the world.

Ohh so your saying that under my system which is capitalism people who don't care about others and who only care about themselves get enslaved or shoot?

[Plagueround]

Good to see your views are faltering. You're going from "so what?" to "it's not perfect but what is?"


Ohh so your saying that under my system which is capitalism people who don't care about others and who only care about themselves get enslaved or shoot?

You want Randian style capitalism and you see taxation as stealing. If you have capitalism without taxes, who will provide the infrastructure capitalism depends on? Private companies will.
If private companies are able to get a monopoly on land, and you've established you think people can do whatever they want to others without respect for decency or diversity, what is to stop someone from shooting or enslaving another person and saying "they were on my property!"

Now to you that sounds absurd...So think about that the next time you slam someone's ideals without actually knowing anything about it other than what Ayn told you.

[RebelDog]

Think of the whole country as a big household, and the whole nation as a big family, which is what they really are. What do we see? Half-fed, badly clothed, abominably housed children all over the place; and the money that should go to feed and clothe and house them properly being spent in millions on bottles of scent, pearl necklaces, pet dogs, racing motor cars, January strawberries that taste like corks, and all sorts of extravagances. . . . Now this is shockingly bad political economy. . . . the nation that spends money on champagne before it has provided enough milk for its babies, or gives dainty meals to Sealyham terriers and Alsatian wolf-hounds and Pekingese dogs whilst the infant mortality rate shews that its children are dying by thousands from insufficient nourishment, is a badly managed, silly, vain, stupid, ignorant nation, and will go to the bad in the long run no matter how hard it tries to conceal its real condition from itself by counting the pearl necklaces and Pekingese dogs as wealth, and thinking itself three times as rich as before when all the pet dogs have litters of six puppies a couple. The only way in which a nation can make itself wealthy and prosperous is by good housekeeping: that is, by providing for its wants in the order of their importance, and allowing no money to be wasted on whims and luxuries until necessities have been thoroughly served.
George Bernard Shaw

Government is the shadow cast by business over society.
John Dewey

[CaptainCapitalist68]

Think of the whole country as a big household, and the whole nation as a big family, which is what they really are. What do we see? Half-fed, badly clothed, abominably housed children all over the place; and the money that should go to feed and clothe and house them properly being spent in millions on bottles of scent, pearl necklaces, pet dogs, racing motor cars, January strawberries that taste like corks, and all sorts of extravagances. . . . Now this is shockingly bad political economy. . . . the nation that spends money on champagne before it has provided enough milk for its babies, or gives dainty meals to Sealyham terriers and Alsatian wolf-hounds and Pekingese dogs whilst the infant mortality rate shews that its children are dying by thousands from insufficient nourishment, is a badly managed, silly, vain, stupid, ignorant nation, and will go to the bad in the long run no matter how hard it tries to conceal its real condition from itself by counting the pearl necklaces and Pekingese dogs as wealth, and thinking itself three times as rich as before when all the pet dogs have litters of six puppies a couple. The only way in which a nation can make itself wealthy and prosperous is by good housekeeping: that is, by providing for its wants in the order of their importance, and allowing no money to be wasted on whims and luxuries until necessities have been thoroughly served.
George Bernard Shaw

Government is the shadow cast by business over society.
John Dewey

So your saying that no one should be allowed to drink wine or have any luxuries until every person on Earth is well feed, has a house to live in and an education?

[CaptainCapitalist68]

Good to see your views are faltering. You're going from "so what?" to "it's not perfect but what is?"



You want Randian style capitalism and you see taxation as stealing. If you have capitalism without taxes, who will provide the infrastructure capitalism depends on? Private companies will.
If private companies are able to get a monopoly on land, and you've established you think people can do whatever they want to others without respect for decency or diversity, what is to stop someone from shooting or enslaving another person and saying "they were on my property!"

Now to you that sounds absurd...So think about that the next time you slam someone's ideals without actually knowing anything about it other than what Ayn told you.

I never said I believed in 0 taxation.

There will be signs, fences and shit on what land is private property.

No, capitalism does not cause people to get shoot or enslaved. Your system does.

[Nusocialist]

It is almost like some people cannot comprehend anything about society, social institutions, social relationships etc etc. It is an extremely poor analysis of the world.

You get the same silly arguments about how capitalism is non-coercive because the coercion sanctioned by property right apparently doesn't count. Capitalist property rights are apparently something that is given, they appear naturally, they aren't social relationships and institutions at all.:rolleyes:

[pusher robot]

Otherwise at least recognize that private property is a bullshit myth, only made reality by coercion and force.

So what? So is every human law or moral code. Unless you are advocating the total destruction of human civilization, this is a non-argument.

Why don't you participate in the argument that matters: whether or not, on balance, property rights are beneficial.

[RebelDog]

So your saying that no one should be allowed to drink wine or have any luxuries until every person on Earth is well feed, has a house to live in and an education?

Yes, if we have control over that then it should be priority. But an anarchist society would do that, its called socialism. There is no moral argument that could lead a rational human being to any other outlook.

So your saying that its OK for a parasitic elite to live in the most disgusting luxury, whilst billions have barely enough to eat, live in untold misery and suffering, and see their labours stolen in order that these fuckers can live like kings? Its funny how people like you see everything totally upside down. It doesn't matter how reprehensibly immoral that view might be, the justification for the unjustifiable is found somehow.

[jasmine]

Why don't you participate in the argument that matters: whether or not, on balance, property rights are beneficial.

Obviously it's really beneficial to society as a whole if you're a good looking movie star doing something really socially useful like starring in a really boring movie and being paid millions, or if you do something else really socially useful like playing basketball and earn a fortune, or you could be failed banker and the taxpayers will pay back everything you lose through your idiocy,whilst people like nurses or care workers doing something that really doesn't matter like looking after sick or old people are paid a pittance.

It all just makes so much sense doesn't it?

[pusher robot]

Obviously it's really beneficial to society as a whole if you're a good looking movie star doing something really socially useful like starring in a really boring movie and being paid millions, or if you do something else really socially useful like playing basketball and earn a fortune, or you could be failed banker and the taxpayers will pay back everything you lose through your idiocy,whilst people like nurses or care workers doing something that really doesn't matter like looking after sick or old people are paid a pittance.

It all just makes so much sense doesn't it?

You cannot win an argument with sarcasm.

[jasmine]

You cannot win an argument with sarcasm.

There's no sarcasm there. Not a hint. I don't care about winning arguments.

Is there anything you really care about?

[Plagueround]

So what? So is every human law or moral code.

No shit. But CaptainFascist68 doesn't seem to realize that and thinks there is some inherent morality to owning property and money.


Unless you are advocating the total destruction of human civilization, this is a non-argument.

Unless you're reading what I say out of context and not paying attention to the other poster I was replying to.


Why don't you participate in the argument that matters: whether or not, on balance, property rights are beneficial.

I do not advocate any property rights other than personal property. Personal property is merely a means of someone having personal space, not one person using more than they need to accumulate even more than they need and more than others have while exploiting others and giving them a fraction of what their labor is worth. I also do not advocate state monopoly on resources since that is just putting the property in the hands of different owners.

[pusher robot]

There's no sarcasm there. Not a hint. I don't care about winning arguments.

Is there anything you really care about?

Integrity.

[Bud Struggle]

Integrity.

Interesting. For all it's want of understanding of the real world--integrity is one thing that RevLeft has in abundance.

Good call.

[Agnapostate]

Is this considered substantive?

-For people to attempt to implement capitalism in a libertarian communist society would be akin to an untalented entrepeneur going to a public park and attempting to sell water next to a drinking fountain.

[jasmine]

Integrity.


Sounds good but this means what exactly? What defines your intergrity?

[JimmyJazz]

"Law? What do I care about law? Ain't I got the power?"--Cornelius Vanderbilt, industrialist

[Schrödinger's Cat]

So your saying that no one should be allowed to drink wine or have any luxuries until every person on Earth is well feed, has a house to live in and an education?

You actually complained because people see that as an ethical imperative? You, sir, are an asshole.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Back on topic, I saw this Paul Krugman (a Keynesian) quote from another board:

"At the heart of capitalism's inhumanity, it treats labor as a commodity. A worker usually only has one job, which supplies not only his livelihood but his identity. An unsold commodity is a nuisance, an unemployed worker is a tragedy."

[Octobox]

Of course by An-Archism you mean No-Rule or No-SovereigntyOver-Anyone. Better known as "self-rule" or individualism.

All our problems (as a society) in America can be traced back to groupism or collectivism -- wherein one group sought to dominate another involuntarily.

The "idealistic" goal of America was that of Individual-Anarchy; but we never made it owing to Farming Subsidies, Regulatory Advantages, and Slavery -- just can't have a free-society with those roots in it.

Regardless -- one cannot deny that the ideal would be the supreme protection and benefits go to the individual; rather than the group -- since all groups are comprised of individuals.

This is why I request my Anarcho-93 model be considered like a temporary Marvel Comic Superhero Team-Up.

We need to first determine what group is the most individualistic -- my vote is the Consumer. All people consume, not all work; but all consume.

A Consumer Union has legs and teeth -- but we'd have to drop all the "groupist" trigger words: capitalism, communism, socialism, trade-unionism, free-markets --- we'd need terms that don't suggest either -- simple language for a non-partisan movement.

Oooops I forgot my quote (edit): "I am just absolutely convinced that the best formula for giving us peace and preserving the American way of life is freedom, limited government, and minding our own business overseas." Ron Paul (a "truly" free-market advocate and individual-anarchist)

[Pogue]

Of course by An-Archism you mean No-Rule or No-SovereigntyOver-Anyone. Better known as "self-rule" or individualism.

All our problems (as a society) in America can be traced back to groupism or collectivism -- wherein one group sought to dominate another involuntarily.

The "idealistic" goal of America was that of Individual-Anarchy; but we never made it owing to Farming Subsidies, Regulatory Advantages, and Slavery -- just can't have a free-society with those roots in it.

Regardless -- one cannot deny that the ideal would be the supreme protection and benefits go to the individual; rather than the group -- since all groups are comprised of individuals.

This is why I request my Anarcho-93 model be considered like a temporary Marvel Comic Superhero Team-Up.

We need to first determine what group is the most individualistic -- my vote is the Consumer. All people consume, not all work; but all consume.

A Consumer Union has legs and teeth -- but we'd have to drop all the "groupist" trigger words: capitalism, communism, socialism, trade-unionism, free-markets --- we'd need terms that don't suggest either -- simple language for a non-partisan movement.

Might I ask, are you a fan of Rene Descartes?

[Octobox]

Might I ask, are you a fan of Rene Descartes?

The first thing of his that I read - ruined everything written after it -- so I left Descartes to Descartes. This is where he lost me (I'm glad it was the first thing I read, because I've seen people lose their 20's to this man): "Cogito ergo sum."

I can always find something on a quote page that I agree with him on -- I can't argue with a few of his laws, but if you are referring to his political views there are a lot of wholes.

Peace

[JimmyJazz]

Octobox, what didn't you understand about this:


no Objectivist rhetoric.

[Plagueround]

Of course by An-Archism you mean No-Rule or No-SovereigntyOver-Anyone. Better known as "self-rule" or individualism.

Sure.


All our problems (as a society) in America can be traced back to groupism or collectivism -- wherein one group sought to dominate another involuntarily.Later on you say all groups are created by individuals. Perhaps a few bad individuals infected the groups. It cannot be as simple as "individual good"/"group bad".


The "idealistic" goal of America was that of Individual-Anarchy; but we never made it owing to Farming Subsidies, Regulatory Advantages, and Slavery -- just can't have a free-society with those roots in it.Don't forget plowing over the already established society that lived here first.


Regardless -- one cannot deny that the ideal would be the supreme protection and benefits go to the individual; rather than the group -- since all groups are comprised of individuals.Which is why we must not allow any individuals to gain such disproportionate amounts of resources that they can lord over others with things like food, water, housing, and such. A true individual does nothing to propel their "individualism" at the expense of others. Otherwise, they are not truly a proponent of individualism, rather they are a bully and a tyrant.


This is why I request my Anarcho-93 model be considered like a temporary Marvel Comic Superhero Team-Up.Boring nonsensical filler that rehashes the same tired plots and attracts those that don't know any better with flashy pictures and overly dramatic language? I always hated those team-ups.


We need to first determine what group is the most individualistic -- my vote is the Consumer. All people consume, not all work; but all consume. My vote for most individualistic would be a one-legged juggling prostitute with an eye patch and a pink mohawk. You don't see many of those. Consumers are everywhere. But assuming you mean a group that incorporates and accommodates the largest amount of people, we would have to create a group that doesn't have such clashing disparities and contradictions amongst them. Bill Gates consumes a hell of a lot more than I do, and I consume a lot more than the 25-30,000 children that die everyday from treatable diseases and lack of food. Surely, when considering the best way to truly "protect" people's rights, we need to look at more than their consumpition, which, with human beings, is kind of a round about way of saying existence.


A Consumer Union has legs and teeth -- but we'd have to drop all the "groupist" trigger words: capitalism, communism, socialism, trade-unionism, free-markets --- we'd need terms that don't suggest either -- simple language for a non-partisan movement.So in the end your proposal is simply a class colaboration endorsement with an economic system that exists in a vacuum? I'm still not convinced.


Oooops I forgot my quote (edit): "I am just absolutely convinced that the best formula for giving us peace and preserving the American way of life is freedom, limited government, and minding our own business overseas." Ron Paul (a "truly" free-market advocate and individual-anarchist)Isn't that the guy that thinks we could still run a global economy on shiny rocks? Here's my counter-quote:

"One's regret is that society should be constructed on such a basis that man has been forced into a groove in which he cannot freely develop what is wonderful, and fascinating, and delightful in him in which, in fact, he misses the true pleasure and joy of living. He is also, under existing conditions, very insecure. An enormously wealthy merchant may be - often is - at every moment of his life at the mercy of things that are not under his control. If the wind blows an extra point or so, or the weather suddenly changes, or some trivial thing happens, his ship may go down, his speculations may go wrong, and he finds himself a poor man, with his social position quite gone. Now, nothing should be able to harm a man except himself. Nothing should be able to rob a man at all. What a man really has, is what is in him. What is outside of him should be a matter of no importance. With the abolition of private property, then, we shall have true, beautiful, healthy Individualism. Nobody will waste his life in accumulating things, and the symbols for things. One will live."

-Oscar Wilde. A true individualist and anarchist who never wished for "limited government".

[mikelepore]

"We stand for maintenance of private property. We shall protect private enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible, economic order." --- Adolf Hitler

(My indirect source for this: A 1985 book of quotations called "The Great Thoughts" by George Seldes says that this quotation appeared in the 1944 book "Der Fuhrer" by Konrad Heiden, and that Heiden was quoting a speech from 1926.)

[Die Neue Zeit]

"But the Nazis were SOCIALISTS, damn it!" :laugh:

[mikelepore]

"But the Nazis were SOCIALISTS, damn it!" :laugh:

Yeah, you can always judge what everything really is, just by looking at its name!! But now I'm so confused about why a tit-mouse is a type of bird!!

[Pogue]

Yeah, you can always judge what everything really is, just by looking at its name!! But now I'm so confused about why a tit-mouse is a type of bird!!

errr, i think its because people are naturally selfish :confused:

[farleft]

Minix - Its name derives from the words minimal and Unix

[JimmyJazz]

These kinds of quotes need to get greater exposure; they don't faze us, but I think most people would be shocked to read something like this if they truly grasped what it is saying:


Another adverse feature of representative democracy is the strong political power of interest groups, such as agriculture, environmental lobbies, defense contractors, and the handicapped. These groups tend to generate policies that redistribute resources in favor of themselves. These transfers create economic distortions that hamper growth, and the programs usually do not benefit the poor.

Authoritarian regimes may partially avoid these drawbacks of democracy. Moreover, nothing in principle prevents nondemocratic governments from maintaining economic freedoms and private property. A dictator does not have to engage in central planning. Recent examples of autocracies that have expanded economic freedoms include the Pinochet government in Chile, the Fujimori administration in Peru, to a lesser extent the shah's government in Iran, and several previous and current regimes in East Asia [probably he's referring to genocidal maniacs like Suharto, who also happened to turn Indonesia into one big sweatshop]. Furthermore, most OECD (Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development) countries began their modern economic development in systems with limited political rights and became full-fledged representative democracies only much later.

The effects of autocracy on growth are adverse, however, if a dictator uses his or her power to steal the nation's wealth and carry out nonproductive investments. Many governments in Africa, some in Latin America, some in the formerly planned economies of Eastern Europe, and the Marcos administration in the Phillipines seem to fit this model.

Thus, history suggests that dictators come in two types: one whose personal objectives often conflict with growth promotion and another whose interests dictate a preoccupation with economic development. The theory that determines which kind of dictatorship will prevail is missing. Absent this theory, the choice of a dictatorship can be viewed as a risky investment: economic outcomes may be very good or very bad but are surely uncertain.From Getting It Right: Markets and Choices in a Free Society by Robert J. Barro (a self-professed Friedmanite libertarian)

What to even make of a person who openly talks about democracy vs. dictatorship for the great majority of the world's population as a choice for the first world rich to make--an investment choice?

[Tom-Guevarist]

"A system based on greed, unbearable rics an perverdish rewards"