Proof of torture in Cuba....now what do you say?

[Anti communist]

If you commies dismiss this which is backed up by Amnesty Intl, then you are not playing with a full deck. And don't tell me that the CIA tortures people, etc. The question at hand is wether or not Castro tortures people. Since you've dismissed this evidence in my prev posts, I am forced to start a new post with just that topic so everyone can see it. I'd like to see your responses Redstar2000 and DyerMaker. How can you dismiss this as an inacurate claim by me?

As far as proof of Armando Valladares being tortutred, look at the third link in my group of 3 at the bottom where it says that the French president Francois Mitterand got involved, and look at the lfirst ink below which looks almost identical to the 3rd one in my group of 3 but it has more detail and it says: Unbelievably, while many non-governmental organizations like Amnesty International and America's Watch have denounced the human rights situation in Cuba, there has been a continuing love affair on the part of the media and many intellectuals with Fidel Castro.

http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/...p_prologue.html (http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/aghop_prologue.html)



Armando Valladares
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=625

http://www.blackstoneaudio.com/audiobook.cfm?ID=1069

http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/aghop.html


(Edited by Anti communist at 2:15 pm on April 1, 2003)

[Anti communist]

Here are just a few more.

http://www.canfnet.org/Issues/repressionon...ontherecord.htm (http://www.canfnet.org/Issues/repressionontherecord.htm)

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar97/amrsum.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2...21/161619.shtml (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/5/21/161619.shtml)

http://www.needham.k12.ma.us/High_School/c...kp6/nuskp6.html (http://www.needham.k12.ma.us/High_School/cur/kane97/P6/nuskp6/nuskp6.html)

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/cuba02272003.html

[sc4r]

what Utter tosh. Here is what your own link has to say about Amnesties 'comdemnation'

Scores of dissidents, including human rights defenders, were arbitrarily detained for short periods or subjected to persistent harassment in Cuba. Several were tried and imprisoned as prisoners of conscience or confined to specific areas of the country, and at least nine people were forced into exile. Some 600 other prisoners of conscience and several hundred political prisoners remained in prison

This is just below where it mentions the hundreds that were killed and torturured in Brazil (note that Amnesty does not say that Cuba tortures people, what it does is 'detain them for short periods') and just above where it mentions thousands killed elsewhere. In fact on that report by far the best performing nation is Cuba.

Frankly you make me sick, you cannot be under the impression that you are making a valid point here, you are simply abusing the hospitality of this forum.

The USA has 3x as many Amnesty 'comdemnations' as Cuba and of a more serious nature. Israel has so many Amnesty run it on a separate server.

CUBA is not perfect is what yoiu have 'proved'. WOW!



(Edited by sc4r at 2:47 pm on April 1, 2003)

[Xvall]

APRIL FOOLS!

[Anti communist]

How do you explain the fact that Amnesty Intl and the French president and many other groups put intense preassure on Castro until he released Armando Valladares after 22 yrs of torture. ****CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT PLEASE? OR ARE YOU GOING TO SAY THAT IT NEVER HAPPENED?**** You only like to point out the parts that are not as bad as the others, read the whole thing.

[redstar2000]

So, worm, here are the links you provide:

1. Encounter Books...right-wing publishing outfit; click on the catalog to see what other kinds of trash they publish.

2. Capitalism Magazine...now there's an objective source.

3 & 4 are audio duplicates of 1 & 2

5. is a worm link.

6. is an old report from 1997. (scr4 has the reply.)

7. Newsmax is another right-wing link; it hails the war criminals that shot that van load of women and children in Iraq as "heroes".

8. The Needham link is a bunch of high school kids. I don't blame them for claiming that the "majority of drugs smuggled into America pass through Cuba." The teacher must, however, be considered a total ignoramus.

9. Document Not Found!

And you have the gall to waste 15 minutes of my time with this pathetic shit?

:cool:

[ELComandante]

I agree with redstar2000, this is crap. Please dont tell me that it is proof, every bastard can make up and fake such things. I dont see any proof, that they are real. People there are happy with their goverment now, i know that from a guy who went there 2 months ago on a bussines trip. It cant be real, El vive Fidel Castro! The only who could do such things is Bush...

(Edited by ELComandante at 7:16 pm on April 1, 2003)

[Anti communist]

Hey Redstar, you are the kind of guy that could see Clinton execute a child in the middle of Times Square with 1,000 witnesses watching, and a video tape of it shows up on Fox News and you'd find a way to try to discredit the 1,000 witnesses and say that the tape was fabricated.

Go to any website of your choosing that has stuff from Amnesty Intl and you'll see what a human rights issue Cuba has. Probably the reason I found these links most ly on right wing sites as you **claim** they are is because you commies don't want the truth to be shown on the sites you control. Well it's not gonna work because the centrists and righties in this world know about Castro.

And as far as the part about one of the reports being from 1997.........wow, that makes me feel better, hey, stop the presses.......stop the presses......Castro was only a murderous thug for 38 yrs not 44 as I thought.......what a load off my mind that is.

And I told you to stop the name calling. if you don't I'm gonna start calling you AN UGLY BUCK TOOTHED BIATCH!!!! Is that how you want these debates to go. Keep it civil man. Look at your avatar, it's an angry red face. It matches your tone on this forum.

I have shown you guys evidence from one of the most respected human rights groups in the world and you dismiss it. That makes you a party liner, and a lier. As for me, my conscious is clear, I know I'm telling the truth baby!!!!! Can you or Castro say the same? Death to communism!!!!!!!!!

[Anti communist]

The guy who went there on a business trip 2 months ago. That must be the same guy who stays at the gov't run resorts which don't represent the real Cuba at all. The resorts that have anything and everything you want to buy, but only for tourists, because Cuban citizens can't go near them unless they work there. Even if they could they couldn't afford anything on $100 a month that they make.

[sc4r]

Go to any website of your choosing that has stuff from Amnesty Intl and you'll see what a human rights issue Cuba has. Probably the reason I found these links most ly on right wing sites as you **claim** they are is because you commies don't want the truth to be shown on the sites you control. Well it's not gonna work because the centrists and righties in this world know about Castro.


I have shown you guys evidence from one of the most respected human rights groups in the world and you dismiss it. That makes you a party liner, and a lier. As for me, my conscious is clear, I know I'm telling the truth baby!!!!! Can you or Castro say the same?

More BS. In fact we are not the ones dismissing Amnesty; you are. Nobody here has denied that Cuba is not Amnesties idea of complete perfection, guess what? nobody is.

What you want to do is completely ignore the genuine overall picture and assess only Cuba against a standard which nobody come close to reaching (Cuba comes closer than most mind). If you were doing it honestly you would first work through the 150 odd other nations 'condemned' more by amnesty and spread some vitriol about them. But in fact you do the reverse about at least one of them - 'Dog Bless America'.


Here is an alternative report on Valladares :

“In the 1980s, AI championed the cause of Armando Valladares, a former member of Batista's police who had been jailed in 1961 after being found red-handed with bomb making equipment in his Havana flat. Valladares was masquerading as poet who had been crippl ed by years of alleged ill-treatment in prison. In fact, Valladares faked his illness and made a miraculous recovery after being released. Valladares went on to become the US representative of Human Rights in Geneva and was given a medal by George Bush.”

And here is how Valladares says it was :

[/I]“I was in solitary confinement in Fidel Castro's tropical gulag - where I spent 22 years for refusing to pledge allegiance to the Communist regime”[/I]

And he has published his memoirs for profit (in which amazingly he makes many claims of Cuban brutality). Obviously this man is a character whom anyone would take at face value. AS IF

Now there are actually numerous reports of how Cubans view Cuba and they all say much the same thing - That they are pretty OK with things, they would wish to be richer (we all do) but they blame (correctly) the blockade and even so prefer Castro and Socialism to the alternative.

2 weeks ago I had a Cuba debate on another forum, all the usual crap like yours got dragged out. But one thing unusual happened. One of the Americans* (not a commie, not a socialist, a bog standard american , sometimes even votes republican), happened to have a recently arrived Cuban family next door, so he knocked on their door and asked them about Cuba. They told him 'we are here because we wanted to be better off, things are not that bad in Cuba, no-one starves, no-one is oppressed, Castro is liked by most, loved by some, hated by a few. We did not leave to escape oppression, we simply wanted to be better off'.

Your statements about Cuba are rabid, biased, flat untrue in many cases, and of course you are one of those people who has $billions to gain from getting a complete lie about Castro and the regime established as truth. And then you post these lies (in a very very insulting way) on our site and expect polite acceptance in return !!


* As usual he got called a liar, scum, etc. and accused of actually being me by the usual right wing morons until it became obvious that he was exactly what he claimed to be.



(Edited by sc4r at 8:16 pm on April 1, 2003)

[The Sniper]

HMmm intertesting now i understand why American wants a base there. They can compaire torture notes with the Cubans. Look im not gonna argee against u Anti as u are oviously conviced by the writers story. But please comsider these points.
A) its a book done by a bloke who hates cuba and Castro, so it is Bias and will have alot of dramatic lisence in it. I mean who wants to read a book about someone who was in prison for years a nothing happened.
B)Cuba may hvae "comdemnations" from Amnesty Intl whatever u believe America does in fact have far more "comdemnations" than Cuba so therefore u cannot critize Cuba of ANYTHING the USA hasnt done.
c)These are right wing sources u may claim that u use them because "commies" wouldnt show them on the sites they "control". Unfortunatly "commies" do not control that many sites far far far less that right wingers. Well if you feel this why dont u go to a neutral news site and see if u can find any of this information u sprout as "proof".

I argee with u that the tourist situation in Cuba is disgusting but Castro is doing whatever he can to keep Cuba from going Bankrupt and going into anarchy. The USA has santioned Cuba for years if u have forgotten so much of the hardship cubans suffer is because of those sanctions. When the Soviets where giving Cuba aid the standard of living improved dramatically, and many Cubans refer to it as a "golden age" When the US became the only superpower they effected could strangle cuba economically so all Castro can do is use Toruist resorts to provide money for hospitals schools and public services. You really must consider your arguement before u start sporting moronic lines.

And also WTF are u on!! No one has insulted you are used name calling except you!!

[Anti communist]

I've spent about 12 hrs on this site in the last couple of days. I made my points (all corect), you made your points (all wrong)........LOL....common have a sense of humor. But it looks like we aren't gonna convince each other.

Anyway, my point is that I'm 100% convinced that my data is accurate and that there have been and still are human rights issues in Cuba. And that is a fact just ask Amnesty Intl. I don't want to hear about Africa or China or any other country. The question here is Cuba and the evidence is available from a very respected human rights association (Amnesty Intl).

[Tasha]

Although I think castro is not so bad of a leader. I do know for a fact that people have been tortured under him as I have seen one of my friends cousins has had her legs amputated from this. This is an accurate claim/

(Edited by Tasha at 2:40 am on April 2, 2003)

[El Barbudo]

Mom use to tell me that nothing is all white or all black in live. Castro used to be a hero for a generation with Che, but by being an non-democratic leader to Cuba, he's doing what Batista has done forty years before. He's a dictator, and there are many people keeped in prison for politics reasons. But, I have to admit that at least, Fidel tried to do communist. It's hard, but he tried. But now, if you don't admit he's staying the Leader of Cuba as a dictator would do, you lie to yourself. I'm a communist, but I don't think Marx was thinking about a communist country controled by someone who doesn't give the power to the people...

El_Barbudo

P.S. Plz forgive me for my English, I'm french canadian and I don't masterize this language very well...

[hazard]

The only proof of torture in cuba I know of is that committed by the fascists in camp X-ray. What do you have to say about that? Justifiable torture? Typical hypocritical nonsense.

[Chiak47]

hamered,

camp x-ray?Liberal media and liberal red cross is there every 5 days.Those enemy combatants are treted better than the US forces protecting them.If you believe different than show me the facts that you based your opinion on.If not then STFU.

Thanks,
Wish I was In X-ray too show mercy upon the ones who wish MY country harm.

[RedPirate]

Just face it... you have no point to prove, and you probably will never have another one without the help of right wing websites... so just leave...

[hazard]

enemy combatants?

check out my string on MODERN SLAVERY

you clowns are so brainwashed that when you get caught cheating you still think your're winning

here's a liberal media news flash "EQUIVOCATION RUNS RAMPANT UNDER CAPITALIST REGIME"

start using the brain that surely must be inside your head, somewhere. I'm serious.

police action, unlawful combatant, collateral damage?

come on

[Chiak47]

just the facts woman-just the facts.

[Chiak47]

http://www.mccullagh.org/db7/d30-28/commies-go-home.jpg

[hazard]

I guess you couldn't come up with the thousand words to describe that pic, huh?

In this case that pic only speaks one word. NO, it screams it.

FASCIST!

what does that guys map mean? where is that star supposed to be? is that thing cuba just below florida? why is the US blue and cuba also blue? shouldn't cuba be red? where is the northern east coast? did the east coast just blow up? was it a surprise commie sub attack that did it?

that guy should have an arrow pointing to himself with the caption "I'm lost". it would make more sense.

[Anti communist]

Right on Chiak. I especially like the Fry Mumia sign the best.

Hazard, are you kidding me? The star is Washington DC. He's got the east coast up to Long island in there, and yes that is Cuba although it looks like Guantanamo is missingall the way on the right.

[hazard]

oh yeah?

well I dint no that cuba was within spitting distance of florida. or that cuba is roughly half the size of the entire united states. or that washington was universally known to be represented with a star.

you would like that fry mumia sign too. fascist.

only in america do idiots protest protesters

[Anti communist]

Sorry hazard, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence or anything. I feel bad now. I thought you were kidding. The east coast is fairly well drawn but Cuba is off a bit. As far as size, Cuba is 600 miles from east to west and the area around Havana is only 90 miles from Key West in Florida. The US is approx 3000 miles east to west and about 2000 miles north to south on the east coast. Cuba is much smaller but it is a very big island.....the largest in the Carribean.

Later

[Anti communist]

El Barbudo and Tasha, thanks for the estra HONEST insight about the tortures and political prisoners. I think he IS a BAD leader/man/dictator, but at least I'm glad to see someone else here backing up my claims of human rights violations in Cuba.

Barbudo, your English is pretty good.

[hazard]

so he answers my obviously rhetorical questions intended to be mildly humourous

listen, anti communist

you can dazzle me with all of your geopghraphical no how all day long and you still won't impress me

but you can do this to impress me, if you can

what is the connection between mumia nd the war? obviously these racist fascist hate mongers just want to show everybody how simple minded they are. kinda like you. so, because I know you'll already have forgetten, what is the connection? is there one, or am I correct?

I'd love to stomp those nazi hoodless klueless clansmen for the cowards they really are.

(Edited by hazard at 5:36 pm on April 2, 2003)

[Anti communist]

That's what happens when you try to be a nice guy......the commies still find a way to insult you.

Anyway, Mumia has nothing at all to do with the war. I hate when I go to a Woody Harrelson movie and in the bathroom scene it says on the wall "free Mumia". I'm tired of it. The guy is a murderer.

But those guys are just getting a lot of frustration off their chests that has been building up for decades. Wether it's liberals defending that fucking scumbag murderer Mumia and holding up signs that say "free Mumia" a man who was found guilty of killing cops and was found guilty again in appeals, wether it's that or the illegals coming over the border, or the UN and France trying to tell the US what to do when there is a legitimate threat to the US which we need to eliminate, or being thrown in jail for saying the N word while blacks can say cracker all day, or a farmer not being able to develop his land because some fucking endangered frog lives there, or counter protesting against the filthy, scumbag, communist hippies who hate our military and soldiers, and hate this country but at the same time love how well they live here..........wether it's any of these things or a thousand other similar things, these guys with the signs are venting because they are losing their country and their culture, and it's happening due to political correctness, and diversity just for the sake of diversity, and the thought police from the left not letting them espress how displeased they are that their European culture is being replaced by a million other 3rd world culture.

Anyway, wether it's one or more of those things, that's whathose signs are about.

[sc4r]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 3:11 am on April 2, 2003
hamered,

camp x-ray?Liberal media and liberal red cross is there every 5 days.Those enemy combatants are treted better than the US forces protecting them.If you believe different than show me the facts that you based your opinion on.If not then STFU.

Thanks,
Wish I was In X-ray too show mercy upon the ones who wish MY country harm.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2648241.stm

Here is Amnesty condeming X-Ray. IT has been doing so ever since the camp was established. Amnesty seems to feel rather strongly that neither the treatment nor the access to prisoners is as you describe it.

One can, of course, find literally thousands of similar condemnations with just the slightest effort.

[hazard]

hey, anty, chek this out

is it not obvious that the fact that the fascists are "sick" of all the liberal minded people that they, the liberals, too are sick of all the no minds who toot their horns in favour of all the bad things that capitalism carries with it? thought that was obvious.

to take a stance, such as yours, in response to a valid political movement is beyond hypocritical. it's sub moronic. you need not protest. you have your war. you need not condemn mumia. he has been condemned. you need not rant, and rave and spit insults. you have your way. you voice your support every time you "buy american", turn on the tv or go grocery shopping.

at least you answered my question and proved what I feared. those fascists photographed are nothing but racist, hate mongering, mind controlled idiots who have no point. they like their cars and their tv's and like thumbing their nose at public transportation. in essence, they are not only already dead but have been dead for some time. god how I hate looking at corpses. it reminds me of my own mortality.



(Edited by hazard at 7:34 pm on April 2, 2003)

[sc4r]

Quote: from Tasha on 2:38 am on April 2, 2003
Although I think castro is not so bad of a leader. I do know for a fact that people have been tortured under him as I have seen one of my friends cousins has had her legs amputated from this. This is an accurate claim/

(Edited by Tasha at 2:40 am on April 2, 2003)


SO you and she claim. Maybe it is, maybe it isnt, there are certainly hundreds if not thousands of Cuban exiles who claim all sorts of things about Cuba. But the simple fact remains that the independent organisation that looks into such things (Amnesty, the same source quoted by the worm) dont back these claims up as having any substance.

Once again it comes right down to balance, This american boy is saying 'I must vilify Cuba because I can prove it is not perfect'; That it is not perfect is not in dispute and is pretty well meaningless. It is not normal or intelligent (and certainly not unbiased) to launch an attack on one of the the best behaved countries while excusing the actions of far worse transgressors.

What do you think Americans motive is ? Do you think he is genuinely concerned with improving Human rights across the world (if so Cuba is a peculiar place to start) , or do you think he is interested only in slagging off Cuba and discrediting socialism? Much can be told from motives and his are very obvious.

You should not support him if u are genuinely a socialist. He is your enemy and he wil tell these small and meaningless truths before gradually slipping you larger and larger lies. Worse he will use your support to sow discord among others (he is already doing it).

It is a fatal flaw to believe that addressing minor points while ignoring the total picture is a valid way to seek truth and decency. If he had any better evidence than the pathetic items (which dont even support what he is claiming) he presents, he would present it.

Do not fall for this tactic, he does not care about the truth, he cares about overthrowing Cuba and will say anything he thinks he can get away with to achieve that. I doubt he is even just badly misguided, he is almost certainly a deliberate deciever.

I say again Cuba is not perfect. It has more excuse to be very imperfect than most; but the fact is that by any independent assessment it is far closer to perfection than any other south / central american nation.

Viva Castro.

[sc4r]

Quote: from El Barbudo on 3:04 am on April 2, 2003
Mom use to tell me that nothing is all white or all black in live. Castro used to be a hero for a generation with Che, but by being an non-democratic leader to Cuba, he's doing what Batista has done forty years before. He's a dictator, and there are many people keeped in prison for politics reasons. But, I have to admit that at least, Fidel tried to do communist. It's hard, but he tried. But now, if you don't admit he's staying the Leader of Cuba as a dictator would do, you lie to yourself. I'm a communist, but I don't think Marx was thinking about a communist country controled by someone who doesn't give the power to the people...

El_Barbudo

P.S. Plz forgive me for my English, I'm french canadian and I don't masterize this language very well...


Your english is fine. dont worry.

I'm afraid I totally disagree with your statement that Castro is a dictator. The link here explains it again (I'm sure you can find more discusion in the theory forum).

http://ftp.poptel.org.uk/markburton/democ.htm

The basic truth is that the Cuban system of democracy is very different from the US system (and far better IMHO). In fact the US claim that Castro is a dictator is based solely on the fact that he is elected with a large majority. Thats it, thats the entire extent of the rationale for making the claim. Even this ignores several things:

1. There is much less diversity of interests in Cuba than in the US precisely because of its socialist structure; and far more universal support for Castro simply because of the solidarity caused by the blockade. Cubans know that to argue amongst themselves in the face of the massive enemy they have is to guarantee failure.

2. The electoral system is designed to establish largely unopposed candidates before the final vote, this does not mean that their are no alternatives ever on offer, just that the process for discarding unwanted candidates is different (and BTW there is NO method of simply voting which can be guaranteed to produce a valid result, this is not my opinion it is a mathematical fact - see Arrow impossibility theorem).

Really the fact that there is no oppression can be easily judged from the fact that opponents of Castro are allowed to sign petitions, appear on western TV, and campaign openly in Cuba against him; does this sound like a dictatorial Tyrant from the same mold as Saddam ? No it does not.

You need to examine how Cuba's democracy works before saying it does not exist, it is very different from the one you are used to.