What happens after we die?

[MarxSchmarx]

More precisely, what happens to one's mind/consciousness upon death?

I beg of you, please don't post anything like your cult's we go to planet blublekiron crap. And unless your joke answer is objectively LOL-OMG-IZ-DA-SHITZ-ROFL funny, give it some thought and write a serious post.

[pusher robot]

More precisely, what happens to one's mind/consciousness upon death?

I beg of you, please don't post anything like your cult's we go to planet blublekiron crap. And unless your joke answer is objectively LOL-OMG-IZ-DA-SHITZ-ROFL funny, give it some thought and write a serious post.

Is this a trick question? There really is only one realistic answer: it is lost. Your mind, your consciousness, is an emergent behavior of the pattern of matter and energy that constitute your brain. When those patterns cease to exist, so do the emergent properties.

This does raise an intriguing possibility, of course: for if it is the patterns that are important, the physicality constituting those patterns is of less importance. Ergo, there is no theoretical reason why the patterns of matter and energy could not be duplicated - or even simulated - thus allowing those patterns - that is to say, your mind - to continue existing beyond the brain's ability to maintain the integrity of your pattern. No theoretical reason - and the practical reasons why this cannot be done are becoming fewer and fewer at a surprising rate.

[Socialist18]

I don't know what happens and since I'm not a materialist I don't agree with most atheists on this matter. Its possible you are just dead and have no consciousness and its possible that you will continue to have some kind of awareness, I really don't know and don't like to speculate or pretend to be a know it all on the subject. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see, or not see.

[F9]

Basically i dont know,and to be more honest i dont give a shit!Why?I will leave this life as i can,i will do what i do,and when the time will come to die,i would get to know what happens after i die,if i can understand and know that i am dead of course.
But really this currently pays no matter to me!

Fuserg9:star:

[Killfacer]

You go into the cold earth and your body rots. Your mind simply "ends" when you die, nothing happens it just ends.

No you will not have awareness. Why the hell would you? No blood being pumped to your brain, no brain activity; nothing.

[Forward Union]

More precisely, what happens to one's mind/consciousness upon death?

I beg of you, please don't post anything like your cult's we go to planet blublekiron crap. And unless your joke answer is objectively LOL-OMG-IZ-DA-SHITZ-ROFL funny, give it some thought and write a serious post.

Given that we can observe that the process that constitute ones "conciousness" stop, the brain ceases to function and even decomposes, making it irreversably incapable of thought (after an hour or so). It's pretty conclusive that the mind stops after death.

It wont be that scary though, don't worry, you've not existed before. Just think what it was like before you were born.

[which doctor]

It wont be that scary though, don't worry, you've not existed before. Just think what it was like before you were born.
That's how I think of it too. I imagine life after death will be much like life before birth. It won't be an eternity of nothingness of anything like that, it will just be the absence of anything.

[Dean]

This does raise an intriguing possibility, of course: for if it is the patterns that are important, the physicality constituting those patterns is of less importance. Ergo, there is no theoretical reason why the patterns of matter and energy could not be duplicated - or even simulated - thus allowing those patterns - that is to say, your mind - to continue existing beyond the brain's ability to maintain the integrity of your pattern. No theoretical reason - and the practical reasons why this cannot be done are becoming fewer and fewer at a surprising rate.

Yep, right back to this insanity. Did you think I wouldn't notice? :rolleyes:

[Sentinel]

More precisely, what happens to one's mind/consciousness upon death?As far as we know, it ceases to exist. No reliable proof can be presented for any kind of 'life for the consciousness' or a 'soul' after the death of the body.

Therefore the most logical strategy in life for rational persons is to cherish this life we know that we have, to not accept being treated unequally, etc.

This is why the ruling classes aren't taking stronger measures against superstition; a situation with the masses wallowing in ignorance is a beneficial one for them -- compared to one with a proletariat making demands.

[Led Zeppelin]

What happens when we die? We become dust in the wind. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goHYC6sfS2Q)

[Killfacer]

This is why the ruling classes aren't taking stronger measures against superstition; a situation with the masses wallowing in ignorance is a beneficial one for them -- compared to one with a proletariat making demands.

What do you want the "ruling class" to do? Come out and say "stop beleiving in god!", you make it seem as though the masses are a bunch of thick idiots incapable of making their own decisions.

[maverick]

Well it's difficult to say if there is anything after death. There is no way we could possibly know that, so generally you'd have to experience death first hand. From tha natural perspective, as others have said, your body decomposes, and you simply become part of the world and are recyled off into nature. It would simply be a sort of nothingness, similar to how it was before you were born or a state you are in when you are sleeping except forever. I still find that a bit troubling to think about as all people do to a certain extent, but surrendering yourself to a religious belief for the sake of immortality doesn't make things or change anything as hard as reality is (if you ever do follow a religious belief make sure you aren't just doing it to flee from death). It though is an outlet where many who fear mortality turn to the opposite being the nihilists who take pleasure and confide in their nihilism and use that as a source of comfort so to speak. It's a two way street and many people handle death in different ways. Thinking about it makes it worse just enjoy life when you got it and be thankful that you exist. Your existence alone is amazing, and its really a privilige to be breathing. I'm agnostic and don't say its impossible that there may be something more, but I still live each day as if it were my last.

[maverick]

What do you want the "ruling class" to do? Come out and say "stop beleiving in god!", you make it seem as though the masses are a bunch of thick idiots incapable of making their own decisions.

+1

[Zurdito]

Well it's difficult to say if there is anything after death. There is no way we could possibly know that, so generally you'd have to experience death first hand.


why exactly? I'm not a scientist but I'm pretty sure it's scientifically proven that that the brain is the source of thought and consciousness, and I am pretty sure it's scientifically been proven that the brain stops working after death along with the rest of the body.

a corpse is an unconscious object. this can be proves by testing it and seeing there's no brain activity. to say you have to die to know that there is no consciousness after death is like saying you have to be a table to know it's not conscious.

after death, "you" become the corpse, an unconscious thing. it's not like the brain disappears to some mysterious place where it may still be working. the brain is your consciousness, and it stops working.

[maverick]

Like I said there is no way we can know for sure if there is something more, or beyond Human comprehension (or scientific measure). I'm aware of the naturalistic view points, biology, how the mind and body works. I'm not ignorant. I just keep an open mind being man doesn't know a whole lot in reality and in retrospect knows very little compared to what exists in reality. There really is no need to get into a discussion about it, call me weak or whatever, etc. and get it out of your system.

[pusher robot]

Yep, right back to this insanity. Did you think I wouldn't notice? :rolleyes:

What do you find "insane," the notion that consciousness is a manifestation of matter and energy? For this to be false, you must believe in a "soul" or something similar.

[Lynx]

This does raise an intriguing possibility, of course: for if it is the patterns that are important, the physicality constituting those patterns is of less importance. Ergo, there is no theoretical reason why the patterns of matter and energy could not be duplicated - or even simulated - thus allowing those patterns - that is to say, your mind - to continue existing beyond the brain's ability to maintain the integrity of your pattern. No theoretical reason - and the practical reasons why this cannot be done are becoming fewer and fewer at a surprising rate.
Vicarious immortality is no comfort :(

[al8]

To compare it to somthing we know daily, our death will be like an everlasting dreamless sleep.

[Demogorgon]

To compare it to somthing we know daily, our death will be like an everlasting dreamless sleep.

No it won't, because a dreamless sleep still has low elements of consciousness involved and of course it only exists in a meaningful sense because we have something to compare it to.

The state of death is the same state as before you are conceived, that it to say nothing at all. When your brain ceases to function in its entirety, that is to say your mind is gone. It is no more than a computer programme after the computer it is running on is taken apart and its memory wiped.

[trivas7]

This does raise an intriguing possibility, of course: for if it is the patterns that are important, the physicality constituting those patterns is of less importance. Ergo, there is no theoretical reason why the patterns of matter and energy could not be duplicated - or even simulated - thus allowing those patterns - that is to say, your mind - to continue existing beyond the brain's ability to maintain the integrity of your pattern. No theoretical reason - and the practical reasons why this cannot be done are becoming fewer and fewer at a surprising rate.
You make the Buddhist case for rebirth cogently.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I believe that it lives on; I don't take the Bible's description of heaven and hell literaly and think its silly for any Christian to do so, I don't think that limits us to only one plain of existence though. All that energy, all that passion thats bottled into the human soul cant possibly just wither away... it has to go somewhere.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I don't know what happens and since I'm not a materialist I don't agree with most atheists on this matter. Its possible you are just dead and have no consciousness and its possible that you will continue to have some kind of awareness, I really don't know and don't like to speculate or pretend to be a know it all on the subject. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see, or not see.

Agreed:)

[Socialist18]

In the end it doesn't really matter what we all think death is because its one of life's unavoidable outcomes for us all. If people need to believe in life after death to live comfortably and deal with their fear of the unknown then so be it, just so long as their beliefs don't flow over into politics and governmental decision making I have no problem with that.
From this viewpoint it ultimately makes no difference in the grand scope of things because life is a pointless endeavor anyways in my opinion as we will probably, in the end, all be wiped out like the dinosaurs (that doesn't mean not to value life and try to make circumstances better for all), one more dead effects nothing in the mechanisms of life.

Sure it would be ideal if the masses weren't self brainwashed into fantastical beliefs but they are and there will never be a man or woman that can convince them otherwise, religion is the opiate of the masses as Marx said.
Just believe whatever you want, whatever helps you deal with the natural fear of death, like I've already said, so long as your beliefs don't play a part in politics then its fine.

I like to keep an open mind about it because its possible that there is something inside each one of us that continues after death, something that cannot be measured by science, possible yes, probable, not likely but I'm not certain. Science almost convinces me to believe that dead is dead, the end of the line and thats it but cultures of the world for thousands of years have had the belief that there is something after we die, could be all superstitious tribal nonsense sure, but maybe not. The spiritual beliefs of the ancient Egyptians is very interesting to me, I kinda think that maybe they were onto something, but again I'm not certain.
:)

[Rosa Provokateur]

I like you, for someone who quotes Mao you're pretty laid back and open-minded. Nothing against Maoists but all the ones I've met have always been pretty high-strung.

[Socialist18]

I like you, for someone who quotes Mao you're pretty laid back and open-minded. Nothing against Maoists but all the ones I've met have always been pretty high-strung.I'm not really a full fledged Maoist per se but I do like Mao's works and what he had to say.

[danyboy27]

after we die we crap in our pants after the jaws release.

[mykittyhasaboner]

i don't know what happens after we die, and i really don't like to ponder on the subject. i find it to be quite distressing not knowing what "happens". it's already a ***** trying to figure out life and what it 'is'.

[pusher robot]

All that energy, all that passion thats bottled into the human soul cant possibly just wither away... it has to go somewhere.


after we die we crap in our pants after the jaws release.

That's as good an answer as any I think.

[Jazzratt]

I have no idea what happens, but given all the evidence available, I'm going with "you shit yourself just after the jaws release".

[mykittyhasaboner]

its true you do shit your pants when you die, i think we should form a religion around that.

[al8]

No it won't, because a dreamless sleep still has low elements of consciousness involved and of course it only exists in a meaningful sense because we have something to compare it to.

There is no such element of conciousness. It is a time passed of which you are not concious and nothing is experienced. It is exactly like before you where even born. These are short intervals all people where they are "shut off" and have hours they know existed but that went unexperienced. Just like the the hours that went before us before we existed.

[MarxSchmarx]

Huh. So a lot of people think our minds/consciousness "just end". Honestly, I don't understand what this means. A road ends, a book ends, but what is lost when consciousness ends? And if consciousness has a beginning and an end, is it a process rather than a state of being?

Plus, I'm not so sure this consciousness ends. For example, we all agree that one component of consciousness is a string of thoguhts. Let's pretend I'm playing a game of checkers, and in the middle of the game I die. Now, I can see somebody picking up from where I left off, understanding my strategy and the string of thoughts that went into the checkers game I was playing. So has this consciousness really "ended" if this alive person carries on the checkers game as I would have??


All that energy, all that passion thats bottled into the human soul cant possibly just wither away... it has to go somewhere.

Well it could just be released as heat like other pent up energy, although I don't know if we can measure how consciousness turns into heat.


In the end it doesn't really matter what we all think death is because its one of life's unavoidable outcomes for us all.

Well, if we're all going to die anyway, why does ANYTHING matter?



If people need to believe in life after death to live comfortably and deal with their fear of the unknown then so be it, just so long as their beliefs don't flow over into politics and governmental decision making I have no problem with that.


What if they use it to brainwash their children? Or if they use it to justify, say, being an asshole as long as they go to confession on Friday.



Just believe whatever you want, whatever helps you deal with the natural fear of death, like I've already said, so long as your beliefs don't play a part in politics then its fine.


I mean ethically this is fine, but this doesn't mean "any old answer" suffices. Sure I have no problem with somebody saying they go to planet blahblah when they die, I just don't take that answer as seriously as I do the answer that, for example, our consciousness "ends" and we cease to exist. Clearly not all answers to this question are created equal.

[danyboy27]

man, my tehory got supported for once, i need to get stoned just for that.

[spartan]

I have always believed that when you die your spirit is born again in another form which could be anything from a human to a cat or dog, etc.

Do I have anything to prove this? No but I have always believed that all living things have a soul/spirit and that this does not die but merely moves on into another new-born physical form (human or any other animal) when your physical body dies.

[Socialist18]

Well, if we're all going to die anyway, why does ANYTHING matter?In a way it doesn't.




What if they use it to brainwash their children? Or if they use it to justify, say, being an asshole as long as they go to confession on Friday.All religion is brainwashing and used to justify everything so I fail to see the difference in this or that sort of brainwashing, its all the same.




I mean ethically this is fine, but this doesn't mean "any old answer" suffices. Sure I have no problem with somebody saying they go to planet blahblah when they die, I just don't take that answer as seriously as I do the answer that, for example, our consciousness "ends" and we cease to exist. Clearly not all answers to this question are created equal.Religion is a coping mechanism in my opinion, people need to free themselves from the fear of death and religion is a sure fire way to do that, it makes no difference what religion or what beliefs people use to get to that stage as the means is unimportant, its the fear free end they desire and as we all know there are numerous ways to achieve this.

[Random Precision]

Plus, I'm not so sure this consciousness ends. For example, we all agree that one component of consciousness is a string of thoguhts. Let's pretend I'm playing a game of checkers, and in the middle of the game I die. Now, I can see somebody picking up from where I left off, understanding my strategy and the string of thoughts that went into the checkers game I was playing. So has this consciousness really "ended" if this alive person carries on the checkers game as I would have?

Quite an interesting thought you have here. I also have in mind works of music and, in some cases, literature that were "completed" by others after the artists' death. For example, Mahler sketched out his tenth symphony before he died, but only completed the orchestration of the first movement. Subsequently it's been "completed" by a number of "Mahler experts", although even those experts are very clear that their versions are nothing compared to what the Tenth would have been had Mahler lived. But then, a game of checkers is a much more straightforward matter than a Mahler score, at least for someone who isn't me. :lol:

I suppose it depends where you draw the line between "consciousness" and the individual thoughts and impulses that make it up. Sure, someone might complete your checkers game correctly (or at least, as you would have wanted them to) but that's only the replication of one train of thought you had, over a very short period of time. It doesn't come anywhere close to the totality of your consciousness- if such a thing even exists.

Like I said, very interesting thought. I'll have to think more about this. :)

EDIT: Dunno if you've ever read Jorge Luis Borges, but there was a story of his this reminded me of- Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote. Basically a man decides to "rewrite" Don Quixote himself without having memorized it. Eventually he does manage to produce some good-sized fragments of it in the original 17th-century Spanish. Another thing to think about.

http://www.coldbacon.com/writing/borges-quixote.html

[Decolonize The Left]

More precisely, what happens to one's mind/consciousness upon death?

I'm surprised that no one has taken note of the linguistic problems of the question at hand.

Let us step back for a moment.
"I" is merely a term/concept used by my brain to relate to the situation my body finds itself in this world. Therefore, "I"/"me"/"one"/"you" are not actual things, but terms used to describe the individual body - the being. Since one is never being, but always becoming, the "I" describes the self becoming.

Hence when "you" die - "you" actually do die. You are no longer a self - an individual. In other words, your brain is no longer capable of processing thoughts (i.e. is no longer conscious). We must also remember that our sensory organs are responsible for our perceiving the world, and given that upon death one's sensory organs fail (due to a lack of blood circulation among other things), there will be no 'extended sleep' to speak of. There will be only nothing - and everything.

There will be no "you."
There will be no "I."
There will be no place.
There will be no time.
There will be no difference, no sameness, etc...

Everything we "know" comes from a perspective. In death there is an absence of perspective, for there is no individual, no distinction, no conceptualization.

- August

[Socialist18]

I'm surprised that no one has taken note of the linguistic problems of the question at hand.

Let us step back for a moment.
"I" is merely a term/concept used by my brain to relate to the situation my body finds itself in this world. Therefore, "I"/"me"/"one"/"you" are not actual things, but terms used to describe the individual body - the being. Since one is never being, but always becoming, the "I" describes the self becoming.

Hence when "you" die - "you" actually do die. You are no longer a self - an individual. In other words, your brain is no longer capable of processing thoughts (i.e. is no longer conscious). We must also remember that our sensory organs are responsible for our perceiving the world, and given that upon death one's sensory organs fail (due to a lack of blood circulation among other things), there will be no 'extended sleep' to speak of. There will be only nothing - and everything.

There will be no "you."
There will be no "I."
There will be no place.
There will be no time.
There will be no difference, no sameness, etc...

Everything we "know" comes from a perspective. In death there is an absence of perspective, for there is no individual, no distinction, no conceptualization.

- August
Yes but basically what we are discussing is whether or not consciousness is matter or spiritual, if its matter then dead is dead but if its spiritual its likely not dead. I think we can all agree that if mind is only matter then dead is dead and there will be no knowledge or thoughts after death, but if its not matter then its highly probable that there will be thoughts etc (consciousness) after death.
This is the crux of the discussion and a question I spend a lot of time contemplating.

[Lord Testicles]

Yes but basically what we are discussing is whether or not consciousness is matter or spiritual

Well you would have to prove that "spiritual" things exist before we should even take that into consideration. To me it sounds absurd that consciousness can exist after your brain has ceased to function, it would be like saying that you could continue breathing without a respiratory system.

[Killfacer]

Why are alot of people saying stupid things like "all that passion, how could it simply wither away". What the hell does that mean? Passion is not a physical object, its something your mind creates. When your mind dies, so does you "passion". It's self important and about 99% likely to be false to make claims that your mind will live on forever.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Why are alot of people saying stupid things like "all that passion, how could it simply wither away". What the hell does that mean? Passion is not a physical object, its something your mind creates. When your mind dies, so does you "passion". It's self important and about 99% likely to be false to make claims that your mind will live on forever.
What I meant by that is I can't see how that "spark" that makes someone human can just die out, something has to happen to it. There has to be some kind of plain after this; if not then oh well, but if so...

[Lord Testicles]

What "spark"?

You're going to have to be more specific.

[Rosa Provokateur]

The soul.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Soul, spirit, life-force, whatever you wanna call it. Theres something that makes things live and I dont think that that something just evaporates after the body dies.

[Lord Testicles]

Soul, spirit, life-force, whatever you wanna call it.

Prove any of these things exist.

[Socialist18]

Well you would have to prove that "spiritual" things exist before we should even take that into consideration.
Not really, I consider it and it hasn't' been proven by science. Maybe it cant be proven by science, maybe it doesn't exist..who knows, thats the whole point of thinking about it.

[cop an Attitude]

your life ends, no afterlife. You just stop and decompose so your body can feed other organisms, life goes on that way.

[Decolonize The Left]

"Consciousness" is the state of being conscious, or aware.

Implicit in this definition is a subject (the thing which is aware) and the object (that which the subject is aware of). The subject must be that which experiences, and one experiences through sensory organs - hence we can conclude that the subject is the individual body. The object can be the external world or whatever you want (the computer screen, a bagel, etc...).

This places consciousness firmly within the realm of the physical, or material. Furthermore, we know that consciousness and awareness are directly correlated to brain function (cat scans, MRIs, brain monitoring, etc..).

Green Apostle, you are merely positing that there is something spiritual which makes things live. You have no evidence, no rational justification, no argument. You are just saying it's so - this is called dogma. It has never led to anything positive or helpful in the past....

- August

[Killfacer]

What I meant by that is I can't see how that "spark" that makes someone human can just die out, something has to happen to it. There has to be some kind of plain after this; if not then oh well, but if so...

Thats ridiculous. All your doing is saying "there has to be a soul". Why the hell does there have to be a soul?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

All the evidence suggests that consciousness ceases at death. It sounds outrageous because the human mind cannot possibly imagine what it's like not to exist. The animal part of our brain fears death, rebels against the very concept. That's why the idea of an afterlife of some kind is so enduring. But there is another part of our brain, the rational, reasonable part, the bit that makes us truly special as humans. This rational part of the human mind is capable of overriding our animal instincts, and our species has prospered as a result.

Instincts, intuition, feelings of the heart, and so on and so forth are simply inadequate ways of dealing with material reality.

[Demogorgon]

I think a good way of putting things is that we know that the mind and consciousness are dependent on the physical brain. This is borne out by the fact that if our brains are physically damaged, we can lose consciousness, suffer personality changes, lose intellectual ability and so forth. It follows from this that if the brain shuts up shop entirely, so to speak, there should be nothing.

A believer in the afterlife can of course argue that the mind will cease to be dependent on the brain after death. But in that case suppose somebody has had the aformentioned change in personality due to brain damage, what do they maintain, their final state of mind or their earlier state? Do you keep your best state?

Again though, the most sophisticate believers might argue that mental state is not transferred into any afterlife but rather the soul alone is. In discussion with Catholic Priests I have often heard it advanced that Heaven may be a sort of soul's union with God. To that I can only say, if you believe that, fine, I accept it, but in the absence of evidence, I am afraid I am not convinced.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Prove any of these things exist.
I can't prove that they do any more than you can prove that they don't.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Green Apostle, you are merely positing that there is something spiritual which makes things live. You have no evidence, no rational justification, no argument. You are just saying it's so - this is called dogma. It has never led to anything positive or helpful in the past....

- August

I'm sorry if it sounds dogmatic, believe me it wasnt meant that way.

I guess I believe it because I decide to, not out of empiricism but out of an existential commitment.

[Trystan]

Comrade Stalin meets us in the Holy Motherland.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Comrade Stalin meets us in the Holy Motherland.
Will we get to touch his mustache?

[Killfacer]

commitment to what? Beleiving something for no reason?

[Rosa Provokateur]

Commitment to believing that there is a Creator; that He has a love for us; that He exemplified the best way to live; and that He willingly died as a sacrifice in opposition to the Roman empire, opposition to human government, and as forgiveness for sins.

[Socialist18]

Commitment to believing that there is a Creator; that He has a love for us; that He exemplified the best way to live; and that He willingly died as a sacrifice in opposition to the Roman empire, opposition to human government, and as forgiveness for sins.

Generally to commit to something one needs to know it exists first. That there is the problem with god, he's never showed himself to anyone. Its always amazed me that people commit to god with no proof of his existence, how is that? how do people so easily sidestep rational thought and dive in head first to fantasy land? Oh, thats right, fear of death!
That same fear of death is likely the very reason I'm agnostic and hope theres an afterlife, my rational mind tells me theres not but my basic instinct wants there to be something. I hope there is but I doubt it and thats along way off from committing to any so called god.

[Lynx]

It is possible to appreciate the implications of faith without having faith yourself, and it is possible to appreciate the comfort that faith can bring without having experienced it yourself. I was able to do this by talking with someone who has faith.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I have no fear of death. I choose to believe it because I find it to be true.

[Socialist18]

I have no fear of death. I choose to believe it because I find it to be true.

You have no fear of death because you believe in jesus and heaven, if you didn't believe in it you'd likely have the natural fear of death but because you are on the jesus trip you are exempt from it. Jesus serves a purpose, I admit that but it doesn't make it true. I cant prove god doesn't exist but because he has never presented himself to me thats a pretty good reason to believe he is a myth.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I dont fear death because death has been overcome. As for heaven, I'll be the first one to point out that whats been preached about heaven has been mostly misconception.

Now as to God never presenting Himself to you, have you seriously looked for Him? Disbelief is usually the result of someone's decision to believe the negative things others have told them about the Bible, and that makes it impossible for them to do any serious reading of it.

[Socialist18]

I dont fear death because death has been overcome.Because of your belief in god, exactly!


Now as to God never presenting Himself to you, have you seriously looked for Him? Disbelief is usually the result of someone's decision to believe the negative things others have told them about the Bible, and that makes it impossible for them to do any serious reading of it.Yes I have seriously looked for him, I have prayed and read the bible daily and looked for him everywhere but I've never received any evidence of his existence. Maybe its cause he's not really there, ever think about that?

[Lord Testicles]

I can't prove that they do any more than you can prove that they don't.

Read this.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/burden-proof-t41051/index.html

Then try again.

[Ken]

No it won't, because a dreamless sleep still has low elements of consciousness involved and of course it only exists in a meaningful sense because we have something to compare it to.

The state of death is the same state as before you are conceived, that it to say nothing at all. When your brain ceases to function in its entirety, that is to say your mind is gone. It is no more than a computer programme after the computer it is running on is taken apart and its memory wiped.

before i was conceived... i was a sperm right? i was one sperm out of a billion or something. (gross lol)

and then before i was a sperm, the person who made those sperms was also a sperm. and so on and so on and so on...

so we are all connected to each other, at least in the being human part. we all descended from the first humans, and from the gorillas, and whoever the gorillas were before they were gorillas, etc. so we are all one and the same, really.

we live and die, and in between life and death we contribute to life.

[Killfacer]

Thats just stupid. You dont fear death? Hmm, wonder what you would be doing if someone pointed a gun at your face, shot your entire family then shot you. I am sure you would fear death then.

You cannot simply "find something to be true". If there is no reason for it to be true, then why do you find it true? Explain to me how you found it to be true - more true than say Islam or Hinduism.

[Forward Union]

Thats just stupid. You dont fear death? Hmm, wonder what you would be doing if someone pointed a gun at your face, shot your entire family then shot you. I am sure you would fear death then.

I don't fear death. I do fear dying. Death is nothingness, whats there to worry about?

[Decolonize The Left]

I'm sorry if it sounds dogmatic, believe me it wasnt meant that way.

I guess I believe it because I decide to, not out of empiricism but out of an existential commitment.

I'm not saying it "sounds" dogmatic, I am saying that your position on the issue of religion and God is dogmatic.

I am very aware that you believe in God, the divinity of Jesus, and the soul, because you decide to believe - I am also aware that this arises out of an existential choice which later turns into a commitment once you have established faith.


Commitment to believing that there is a Creator; that He has a love for us; that He exemplified the best way to live; and that He willingly died as a sacrifice in opposition to the Roman empire, opposition to human government, and as forgiveness for sins.

This is called blind faith. It is blind because you won't consider reason, evidence, argument, logic, or history. It is faith because you believe this despite rational, logical, and evidential arguments to the contrary.


I dont fear death because death has been overcome. As for heaven, I'll be the first one to point out that whats been preached about heaven has been mostly misconception.

Death is not optional. There is no being in recorded history which has not died - none. 99% of the species which have ever lived are dead. Death is something to be 'overcome', it is the same end for all life.

What is to be overcome is blind faith.


Now as to God never presenting Himself to you, have you seriously looked for Him? Disbelief is usually the result of someone's decision to believe the negative things others have told them about the Bible, and that makes it impossible for them to do any serious reading of it.

One cannot seriously read the Bible and believe it... it is too full of contradiction and incoherence.

And is it not possible that what you believe to be God is in fact something else? Perhaps the world? For let us remember when we, as a culture, believed the sky to be series of concentric circles. It was obvious! You look up and there it is, everyone could see it if they believed! Alas... it was not true. Could this not be the case with God? What you claim to be God, perhaps a scene which touched you deeply and you said: "Ah, this must be God." Why not just drop the God bit? Couldn't that scene "just have been life? Amazing, amazing life - so full of color, experience, and beauty."

- August

[pusher robot]

I don't fear death. I do fear dying. Death is nothingness, whats there to worry about?

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I greatly enjoy being able to experience the universe. Since death prevents that, and death is also irreversible, I try to avoid it at all costs, a behavior that could be described as "fear."

[Gleb]

We all are probably going to be reborn as tapeworms or something.

[Lenin's Law]

Why are alot of people saying stupid things like "all that passion, how could it simply wither away". What the hell does that mean? Passion is not a physical object, its something your mind creates. When your mind dies, so does you "passion". It's self important and about 99% likely to be false to make claims that your mind will live on forever.

Well said.

The "stupid things" you cite is what happens when you have no logical argument, no tangible evidence, no scientific evidence to support your claim(s) and instead rely on vague, spiritualistic, metaphyical nonsense about "the life force" and "the passion of man" and "the soul" and "the dream world of life after death" almost reminds one of the The Matrix movies.

The great part about saying all this stuff about "life forces" and "inner passions of man" is that you never have to prove any of it, no one is entirely sure what it means, but at the same time it appears you are putting forth a coherent argument when in the final analysis it is all a bunch of spiritualistic mumbo jumbo that should not and really, cannot be taken seriously.

[Trystan]

Will we get to touch his mustache?

Oh my, don't be such a cock tease. And Enver will be there, and Mao, ohh . . .

[Rosa Provokateur]

Yes I have seriously looked for him, I have prayed and read the bible daily and looked for him everywhere but I've never received any evidence of his existence. Maybe its cause he's not really there, ever think about that?
I've considered before that God might not exist, I've had doubt, but I get through it. I'm sorry you havent seen Him and I'll be praying that things change.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Read this.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/burden-proof-t41051/index.html

Then try again.

Good article, I especially like this part:
"The first thing to keep in mind is that the phrase “burden of proof” is a bit more extreme than what is often needed in reality. Using that phrase makes it sound like a person has to definitely prove, beyond a doubt, that something is true; that, however, is only rarely the case. A more accurate label would be a “burden of support” — the key is that a person must support what they are saying."

[Rosa Provokateur]

I'm not saying it "sounds" dogmatic, I am saying that your position on the issue of religion and God is dogmatic.

I am very aware that you believe in God, the divinity of Jesus, and the soul, because you decide to believe - I am also aware that this arises out of an existential choice which later turns into a commitment once you have established faith.



This is called blind faith. It is blind because you won't consider reason, evidence, argument, logic, or history. It is faith because you believe this despite rational, logical, and evidential arguments to the contrary.



Death is not optional. There is no being in recorded history which has not died - none. 99% of the species which have ever lived are dead. Death is something to be 'overcome', it is the same end for all life.

What is to be overcome is blind faith.



One cannot seriously read the Bible and believe it... it is too full of contradiction and incoherence.

And is it not possible that what you believe to be God is in fact something else? Perhaps the world? For let us remember when we, as a culture, believed the sky to be series of concentric circles. It was obvious! You look up and there it is, everyone could see it if they believed! Alas... it was not true. Could this not be the case with God? What you claim to be God, perhaps a scene which touched you deeply and you said: "Ah, this must be God." Why not just drop the God bit? Couldn't that scene "just have been life? Amazing, amazing life - so full of color, experience, and beauty."

- August
How is my position dogmatic?

True, I'm committed to my faith.

I consider all those things, history most of all because it shows that Jesus existed; again, you describe faith pretty accuratly.

Death was optional for one man, and he overcame it; I agree that 99% of things do die but that means that a 1% is out there that is beyond death's reach.

How do you know the Bible cant be read seriously, have you tried?

It could have been life, but then we must ask what created life.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Well said.

The "stupid things" you cite is what happens when you have no logical argument, no tangible evidence, no scientific evidence to support your claim(s) and instead rely on vague, spiritualistic, metaphyical nonsense about "the life force" and "the passion of man" and "the soul" and "the dream world of life after death" almost reminds one of the The Matrix movies.

The great part about saying all this stuff about "life forces" and "inner passions of man" is that you never have to prove any of it, no one is entirely sure what it means, but at the same time it appears you are putting forth a coherent argument when in the final analysis it is all a bunch of spiritualistic mumbo jumbo that should not and really, cannot be taken seriously.
Thats your opinon and I welcome it with open arms.

[Decolonize The Left]

How is my position dogmatic?

Dogmatic: "Stubbornly (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stubbornly) adhering to insufficiently (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/insufficiently) proven (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proven) beliefs; inflexible (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inflexible), rigid (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rigid)." (Wiktionary.com)

You fit this definition perfectly.


True, I'm committed to my faith.

Case in point.


I consider all those things, history most of all because it shows that Jesus existed; again, you describe faith pretty accuratly.

I'm sorry, can you point to one credible historical source which can demonstrate that Jesus existed?


Death was optional for one man, and he overcame it; I agree that 99% of things do die but that means that a 1% is out there that is beyond death's reach.

Death cannot be optional if you admit Jesus was alive at one point. Life necessitates death.


How do you know the Bible cant be read seriously, have you tried?

I have. I own a Bible among numerous other religious texts and secondary texts. Unfortunately, I have trouble taking the Bible seriously upon reading:
"In the beginning God created heaven and the earth."
Why? Because we know that 'in the beginning' the earth didn't exist, and wouldn't exist for millions upon billions of years...

As for poetic license, I find the Bible to be rather dry. The Koran uses far more imagery and is much more beautiful.

But the Bible cannot be read and believed seriously because it contradicts itself and is incoherent.


It could have been life, but then we must ask what created life.

Life evolved, it needed no creator...

- August

[Socialist18]

But the Bible cannot be read and believed seriously because it contradicts itself and is incoherent.
- August I can only speak of the new testament, I didn't find one contradiction in it, I've read it a few times and it all seems pretty straight forward to me. I'm not saying I believe it but I'll give credit where its due.






What I hate about the religious/atheists issue is the division it causes between us socialists, we are all socialists and that is what we ought to focus on rather than try to break each other down. If you're a theist then so be it, if you're an atheist so be it, who gives a fuck.
:)

[Killfacer]

Good article, I especially like this part:
"The first thing to keep in mind is that the phrase “burden of proof” is a bit more extreme than what is often needed in reality. Using that phrase makes it sound like a person has to definitely prove, beyond a doubt, that something is true; that, however, is only rarely the case. A more accurate label would be a “burden of support” — the key is that a person must support what they are saying."

Yes and the only "support" you have got for your beleifs is a ancient book, which was written hundreds of years after the events and the fact that you "beleive" it must be so. Not the strongest of supports.