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RedCeltic
31st March 2003, 00:09
Private property is in many ways like a private form of state. The owner determines what goes on within the area he or she "owns," and therefore exercises a monopoly of power over it. When power is exercised over one's self, it is a source of freedom, but under capitalism it is a source of coercive authority. As Bob Black points out in The Abolition of Work:


"The liberals and conservatives and Libertarians who lament totalitarianism are phoneys and hypocrites. . . You find the same sort of hierarchy and discipline in an office or factory as you do in a prison or a monastery. . . A worker is a part-time slave. The boss says when to show up, when to leave, and what to do in the meantime. He tells you how much work to do and how fast. He is free to carry his control to humiliating extremes, regulating, if he feels like it, the clothes you wear or how often you go to the bathroom. With a few exceptions he can fire you for any reason, or no reason. He has you spied on by snitches and supervisors, he amasses a dossier on every employee. Talking back is called 'insubordination,' just as if a worker is a naughty child, and it not only gets you fired, it disqualifies you for unemployment compensation. . .The demeaning system of domination I've described rules over half the waking hours of a majority of women and the vast majority of men for decades, for most of their lifespans. For certain purposes it's not too misleading to call our system democracy or capitalism or -- better still -- industrialism, but its real names are factory fascism and office oligarchy. Anybody who says these people are 'free' is lying or stupid."
Unlike a company, the democratic state can be influenced by its citizens, who are able to act in ways that limit (to some extent) the power of the ruling elite to be "left alone" to enjoy their power. As a result, the wealthy hate the democratic aspects of the state, and its ordinary citizens, as potential threats to their power. This "problem" was noted by Alexis de Tocqueville in early 19th-century America:


"It is easy to perceive that the wealthy members of the community entertain a hearty distaste to the democratic institutions of their country. The populace is at once the object of their scorn and their fears."
These fears have not changed, nor has the contempt for democratic ideas. To quote one US Corporate Executive, "one man, one vote will result in the eventual failure of democracy as we know it." [L. Silk and D. Vogel, Ethics and Profits: The Crisis of Confidence in American Business, pp. 189f]

This contempt for democracy does not mean that capitalists are anti-state. Far from it. As previously noted, capitalists depend on the state. This is because "[classical] Liberalism, is in theory a kind of anarchy without socialism, and therefore is simply a lie, for freedom is not possible without equality. . .The criticism liberals direct at government consists only of wanting to deprive it some of its functions and to call upon the capitalists to fight it out amongst themselves, but it cannot attack the repressive functions which are of its essence: for without the gendarme the property owner could not exist." [Errico Malatesta, Anarchy, p. 46].

Capitalists call upon and support the state when it acts in their interests and when it supports their authority and power. The "conflict" between state and capital is like two gangsters fighting over the proceeds of a robbery: they will squabble over the loot and who has more power in the gang, but they need each other to defend their "property" against those from whom they stole it.

The statist nature of private property can be seen in "Libertarian" (i.e. minarchist, or "classical" liberal) works representing the extremes of laissez-faire capitalism:


"[I]f one starts a private town, on land whose acquisition did not and does not violate the Lockean proviso [of non-aggression], persons who chose to move there or later remain there would have no right to a say in how the town was run, unless it was granted to them by the decision procedures for the town which the owner had established" [Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State and Utopia, p. 270]
This is voluntary feudalism, nothing more. Of course, it can be claimed that "market forces" will result in the most liberal owners being the most successful, but a nice master is still a master. To paraphrase Tolstoy, "the liberal capitalist is like a kind donkey owner. He will do everything for the donkey -- care for it, feed it, wash it. Everything except get off its back!" And as Bob Black notes, "Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of servitude. . . . [F]reedom means more than the right to change masters." [The Libertarian as Conservative]. That supporters of capitalism often claim that this "right" to change masters is the essence of "freedom" is a telling indictment of the capitalist notion of "liberty."


B.4.1 Is capitalism based on freedom?
For anarchists, freedom means both "freedom from" and "freedom to." "Freedom from" signifies not being subject to domination, exploitation, coercive authority, repression, or other forms of degradation and humiliation. "Freedom to" means being able to develop and express one's abilities, talents, and potentials to the fullest possible extent compatible with the maximum freedom of others. Both kinds of freedom imply the need for self-management, responsibility, and independence, which basically means that people have a say in the decisions that affect their lives. And since individuals do not exist in a social vacuum, it also means that freedom must take on a collective aspect, with the associations that individuals form with each other (e.g. communities, work groups, social groups) being run in a manner which allows the individual to participate in the decisions that the group makes. Thus freedom for anarchists requires participatory democracy, which means face-to-face discussion and voting on issues by the people affected by them.

Are these conditions of freedom met in the capitalist system? Obviously not. Despite all their rhetoric about "democracy," most of the "advanced" capitalist states remain only superficially democratic -- and this because the majority of their citizens are employees who spend about half their waking hours under the thumb of capitalist dictators (bosses) who allow them no voice in the crucial economic decisions that affect their lives most profoundly and require them to work under conditions inimical to independent thinking. If the most basic freedom, namely freedom to think for oneself, is denied, then freedom itself is denied.

The capitalist workplace is profoundly undemocratic. Indeed, as Noam Chomsky points out, the oppressive authority relations in the typical corporate hierarchy would be called fascist or totalitarian if we were referring to a political system. In his words :


"There's nothing individualistic about corporations. These are big conglomerate institutions, essentially totalitarian in character, but hardly individualistic. There are few institutions in human society that have such strict hierarchy and top-down control as a business organisation. Nothing there about 'don't tread on me`. You're being tread on all the time." [Keeping the Rabble in Line, p. 280]
Far from being "based on freedom," then, capitalism actually destroys freedom. In this regard, Robert E. Wood, the chief executive officer of Sears, spoke plainly when he said "[w]e stress the advantages of the free enterprise system, we complain about the totalitarian state, but... we have created more or less of a totalitarian system in industry, particularly in large industry." [quoted by Allan Engler, Apostles of Greed, p. 68]

Or, as Chomsky puts it, supporters of capitalism do not understand "the fundamental doctrine, that you should be free from domination and control, including the control of the manager and the owner" [Feb. 14th, 1992 appearance on Pozner/Donahue].

Under corporate authoritarianism, the psychological traits deemed most desirable for average citizens to possess are efficiency, conformity, emotional detachment, insensitivity, and unquestioning obedience to authority -- traits that allow people to survive and even prosper as employees in the company hierarchy. And of course, for "non-average" citizens, i.e., bosses, managers, administrators, etc., authoritarian traits are needed, the most important being the ability and willingness to dominate others.

But all such master/slave traits are inimical to the functioning of real (i.e. participatory/libertarian) democracy, which requires that citizens have qualities like flexibility, creativity, sensitivity, understanding, emotional honesty, directness, warmth, realism, and the ability to mediate, communicate, negotiate, integrate and co-operate. Therefore, capitalism is not only undemocratic, it is anti-democratic, because it promotes the development of traits that make real democracy (and so a libertarian society) impossible.

Many capitalist apologists have attempted to show that capitalist authority structures are "voluntary" and are, therefore, somehow not a denial of individual and social freedom. Milton Friedman (a leading free market capitalist economist) has attempted to do just this. Like most apologists for capitalism he ignores the authoritarian relations explicit within wage labour (within the workplace, "co-ordination" is based upon top-down command, not horizontal co-operation). Instead he concentrates on the decision of a worker to sell their labour to a specific boss and so ignores the lack of freedom within such contracts. He argues that "individuals are effectively free to enter or not enter into any particular exchange, so every transaction is strictly voluntary. . . The employee is protected from coercion by the employer because of other employers for whom he can work." [Capitalism and Freedom, pp. 14-15]

Friedman, to prove the free nature of capitalism, compares capitalism with a simple exchange economy based upon independent producers. He states that in such a simple economy each household "has the alternative of producing directly for itself, [and so] it need not enter into any exchange unless it benefits from it. Hence no exchange will take place unless both parties do benefit from it. Co-operation is thereby achieved without coercion." [Op. Cit., p. 13] Under capitalism (or the "complex" economy) Friedman states that "individuals are effectively free to enter or not to enter into any particular exchange, so that every transaction is strictly voluntary." [Op. Cit., p. 14]

A moments thought, however, shows that capitalism is not based on "strictly voluntary" transactions as Friedman claims. This is because the proviso that is required to make every transaction "strictly voluntary" is not freedom not to enter any particular exchange, but freedom not to enter into any exchange at all.

This, and only this, was the proviso that proved the simple model Friedman presents (the one based upon artisan production) to be voluntary and non-coercive; and nothing less than this would prove the complex model (i.e. capitalism) is voluntary and non-coercive. But Friedman is clearly claiming above that freedom not to enter into any particular exchange is enough and so, only by changing his own requirements, can he claim that capitalism is based upon freedom.

It is easy to see what Friedman has done, but it is less easy to excuse it (particularly as it is so commonplace in capitalist apologetics). He moved from the simple economy of exchange between independent producers to the capitalist economy without mentioning the most important thing the distinguishes them - namely the separation of labour from the means of production. In the society of independent producers, the worker had the choice of working for themselves - under capitalism this is not the case. Capitalism is based upon the existence of a labour force without its own sufficient capital, and therefore without a choice as to whether to put its labour in the market or not. Milton Friedman would agree that where there is no choice there is coercion. His attempted demonstration that capitalism co-ordinates without coercion therefore fails.

Capitalist apologists are able to convince some people that capitalism is "based on freedom" only because the system has certain superficial appearances of freedom.

On closer analysis these appearances turn out to be deceptions. For example, it is claimed that the employees of capitalist firms have freedom because they can always quit. But, as noted earlier, "Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of servitude. Of course, as [right-Libertarians] smugly [observe], 'one can at least change jobs,' but you can't avoid having a job -- just as under statism one can at least change nationalities but you can't avoid subjection to one nation-state or another. But freedom means more than the right to change masters" [Bob Black, The Libertarian as Conservative]. Under capitalism, workers have only the Hobson's choice of being governed/exploited or living on the street.

Anarchists point out that for choice to be real, free agreements and associations must be based on the social equality of those who enter into them, and both sides must receive roughly equivalent benefit. But social relations between capitalists and employees can never be equal, because private ownership of the means of production gives rise to social hierarchy and relations of coercive authority and subordination, as was recognised even by Adam Smith (see below).

The picture painted by Walter Reuther of working life in America before the Wagner act is a commentary on class inequality : "Injustice was as common as streetcars. When men walked into their jobs, they left their dignity, their citizenship and their humanity outside. They were required to report for duty whether there was work or not. While they waited on the convenience of supervisors and foremen they were unpaid. They could be fired without a pretext. They were subjected to arbitrary, senseless rules. . . .Men were tortured by regulations that made difficult even going to the toilet. Despite grandiloquent statements from the presidents of huge corporations that their door was open to any worker with a complaint, there was no one and no agency to which a worker could appeal if he were wronged. The very idea that a worker could be wronged seemed absurd to the employer." Much of this indignity remains, and with the globalisation of capital, the bargaining position of workers is further deteriorating, so that the gains of a century of class struggle are in danger of being lost.

A quick look at the enormous disparity of power and wealth between the capitalist class and the working class shows that the benefits of the "agreements" entered into between the two sides are far from equal. Walter Block, a leading Fraser Institute ideologue, makes clear the differences in power and benefits when discussing sexual harassment in the workplace:


"Consider the sexual harassment which continually occurs between a secretary and a boss. . . while objectionable to many women, [it] is not a coercive action. It is rather part of a package deal in which the secretary agrees to all aspects of the job when she agrees to accept the job, and especially when she agrees to keep the job. The office is, after all, private property. The secretary does not have to remain if the 'coercion' is objectionable." [quoted by Engler, Op. Cit., p. 101]
The primary goal of the Fraser Institute is to convince people that all other rights must be subordinated to the right to enjoy wealth. In this case, Block makes clear that under private property, only bosses have "freedom to," and most also desire to ensure they have "freedom from" interference with this right.

So, when capitalists gush about the "liberty" available under capitalism, what they are really thinking of is their state-protected freedom to exploit and oppress workers through the ownership of property, a freedom that allows them to continue amassing huge disparities of wealth, which in turn insures their continued power and privileges. That the capitalist class in liberal-democratic states gives workers the right to change masters (though this is not true under state capitalism) is far from showing that capitalism is based on freedom, For as Peter Kropotkin rightly points out, "freedoms are not given, they are taken" [Peter Kropotkin, Words of a Rebel, p. 43]. In capitalism, you are "free" to do anything you are permitted to do by your masters, which amounts to "freedom" with a collar and leash.

von Mises
31st March 2003, 19:40
So, we now have a system which is immoral according to you and a system that doesn't work.

lukecrouch
31st March 2003, 19:50
Quote: from von Mises on 2:40 pm on Mar. 31, 2003
So, we now have a system which is immoral according to you and a system that doesn't work.


If you'll note carefully...it's not according to him, even. Maybe we should all post exceprts from random books on these forums. Or should we discuss things, like, y'know....a *forum* does.

Pete
31st March 2003, 19:53
Wow. Alot of writing. I'd read them but then I'd go blind.

von Mises
31st March 2003, 21:06
Quote: from lukecrouch on 8:50 pm on Mar. 31, 2003

Quote: from von Mises on 2:40 pm on Mar. 31, 2003
So, we now have a system which is immoral according to you and a system that doesn't work.


If you'll note carefully...it's not according to him, even. Maybe we should all post exceprts from random books on these forums. Or should we discuss things, like, y'know....a *forum* does.


I can point out the obvious misstakes in this copy pasted article, or I can't. This again proves the failure of the state subsidized education system, people only learn how to reproduce someone else's opinion.

Can you sum up the central issues here Redceltic and tell me why he is correct?

Som
1st April 2003, 01:02
Quote: from von Mises on 8:40 pm on Mar. 31, 2003
So, we now have a system which is immoral according to you and a system that doesn't work.




Odd that you say it doesn't work when the system supported by the author of that article is one that has worked the few times its been tried, but merely crushed by outside forces.

Its nothing but simplism to say 'it doesn't work' especially if your thinking in the realms of the authoritarian system which in reality, only vaguely resembles what they put forth.

RedCeltic
1st April 2003, 01:57
This happens to be one single page of a 2000+ (and growing) Anarchist FAQ. I read as much of it as I can every day, I really have little time with my studies of anthropology and my social activism to read alot of it, but I make an effort.

It's really sad that you people are so unable to read one single page of this great massive document, and it really shows how anarchists and socialists spend their time studying, reading, learning, and trying to do as much as they can for the world. Meanwhile so called "capitalists" who simply can't read even one page of the FAQ think they know everything by osmoses I suppose.

At any rate.. here are the main points as I see them:

Freedom is the ability to exercise power over one’s self. When you exercise that power to take away the freedoms of another individual, there is a confect of interest. It is absurd to be mealy against totalitarianism, and not against wage slavery. We are against Totalitarianism because we are against a few holding absolute power over the masses. We try to prevent ourselves from going to prisons by all costs, because we find it humiliation to abide by the absolute power and authority of the warden and his guards.
However the same hierarchy continues in the workplace, restricting your freedoms and degrading your humanity.

When a minority of the populous, ( the cooperate executive) holds a monopoly on the machinery of production, it is not out of the imagination of the masses to assume that they are against democracy. Capitalists have contempt for true direct or participatory democracy, and only support fraudulent “representative” democracy, where it can be manipulated to their will.

Their contempt for democracy however does not make the capitalist anti state. The need and use the state when it supports the interests of big business and the free market, and will go against the state to the point where they talk about right wing “libertarianism” when the state’s laws impede it from making profit.

Capitalist claim that Capitalism is freedom, however one must define what constitutes “Freedom.”

An Anarchist would define Freedom as “freedom from and “freedom to”. When we say freedom from we mean freedom from exploitation, freedom from domination, freedom from coercive authority, repression and other forms of degradation and humiliation. When we talk about freedom to, we are talking about the ability to express yourself at your maximum ability, while upholding the maximum respect for the freedom of others.

Both of these “freedoms” imply that people have the responsibility, and right to govern the decisions that affect their lives. It means the ultimate self management. And it means (since no man is an island) we must work collectively in social groups that respect each other’s individuality and rights to self management.

Despite all the rhetoric boasted by capitalists. The most advanced capitalist states only remain democratic on the surface. Meanwhile, never coming close to meeting these conditions we call freedom. For most of the population, it’s the boss that makes crucial decisions in the economic sphere If the most basic freedom, ‘freedom to think for yourself’ is denied, than there is no freedom under capitalism.

El Che
1st April 2003, 07:42
RedCeltic I had read it before. I think it does make some interesting points, not exactly ground braking but they make their case nonetheless.

In "Socialist" (i.e not saying "Anarchists" aren`t Socialists) oriented critique you see a different type of wording but of course there`s a power issue involved. The reason for this discourse is effectively the establishment of the indentity of those discoursing. The problem with that is that their overall case against Capitalism suffers as a result of the need to focuss on a onesided critique. They end up taking it to far, I dont think Capital/Labor dichotomy is exactly akin to Totalitarianism..., and they end up leaving out a series of useful insights into the problem. I don`t think the reasoning: Capitalism is an unequal power relationship, all power relationships are wrong therefore Capitalism is wrong---Is a particualry strong case. Mostly because I don`t agree with one of the premisses :) You have to moraly qualify Capitalist relations based on your insight on them. That being said I do, in my own way, agree with them, the call for economic democracy is a Universal Leftist war cry and yet another stand point from which to criticise Capitalism.

Also I think it`s a very bad sign when people frown at a post that is more than a few paragraphs long. Is this what debate here has degenerated into? Exactly what kind of Capitalists do we have in here? Do you people have nothing to say?

(Edited by El Che at 8:44 am on April 1, 2003)


(Edited by El Che at 8:47 am on April 1, 2003)

von Mises
1st April 2003, 09:23
Please don't use libertarian's in your arguments. I do object the idea that lives among many left anarchist that the great evil is capitalism and not the state. If you're interested you really have to read something from Errico Maletesta, an Italian left anarchist, who lived before the uprise of fascism. Here is a short [url=http://www.anti-state.com/article.php?article_id=340]story[url]

Though most anarcho capitalist would agree with you that "working for a boss" is a form of coercion, this is indeed not true because you enter a free contract. But on the otherhand, you say that it's either slavery or crippling out on the streets, and this of course isn't true either.

Furthermore, the comparison made in the article is between a utopy in a book and the real life which is presented as "capitalism". But is it really? Is any member of the libertarian party going Yi Ha with the present reality in the USA. I should not think so

sc4r
1st April 2003, 12:12
Quote: from von Mises on 10:23 am on April 1, 2003
Please don't use libertarian's in your arguments. I do object the idea that lives among many left anarchist that the great evil is capitalism and not the state. If you're interested you really have to read something from Errico Maletesta, an Italian left anarchist, who lived before the uprise of fascism. Here is a short [url=http://www.anti-state.com/article.php?article_id=340]story[url]

Though most anarcho capitalist would agree with you that "working for a boss" is a form of coercion, this is indeed not true because you enter a free contract. But on the otherhand, you say that it's either slavery or crippling out on the streets, and this of course isn't true either.

Furthermore, the comparison made in the article is between a utopy in a book and the real life which is presented as "capitalism". But is it really? Is any member of the libertarian party going Yi Ha with the present reality in the USA. I should not think so

You are talking of Libertarian Capitalism / Lassez faire or Objectivism. I dont disagree myself that these are what should realy be called Capitalism and these ideologies are not evil. I do think however that they are utopian and cannot / will not work in reality as they are envisaged to work by their genuine supporters.

Howver the term Capitalists is widely used (about themselves so it is not the same situation as pertains to the misrepresntations of socialism) to mean american style liberal democracy. Now I would say that this system actually is evil beyond a certain point of development (which he have long since past) because it inevitably turns into what might be termed Imperialist or monied aristocracy.

Even objectivism becomes oppressive unless you assume that all capitalists will strive not to gather wealth for themselves but primarily to create it. It ,of course, also fails to explain how it will free iself from prisoners dilemma's and allow many desirable forms of wealth to come about.

I would say also that the extent of the tendency for wealth and control over wealth to persist in an individuals hands merely because it already lies there rather than because of any genuinely desirable ability of the individual is also vastly understated (or even completely ignored) by most lassez faire'ists.

I would also say (and you are going to me quite bizarre maybe for saying this :-) that somewhat paradoxically idealist Capitalism would perhaps be an excellent system to run within the final realisation of communism if the social and mental attitudes required for either can actually be vrought about through socialism.

UNITE CAPITALISTS UNDER THE SOCIALiST FLAG :-)

von Mises
1st April 2003, 12:47
I don't think it is bizarre. If you look at most libertarian websites you'll see that the fundamental problem is human nature, and its strive for power. In our societies power is concentrated in the government which has the monopoly on the use of violence. So if you can control the government you can use it for your own interest.

These atrocities you see especially in the US, and that is why libertarians are concerned with having a large state, instead of a minimal one such as Rand proposed or an anarcho capitalistic society.

But I wouldn't call the US situation true capitalism, more syndicalism or a mixed economy. So in my opinion the term is more abused.

El Che
1st April 2003, 12:53
That is complete bollocks. No state is just what the Capitalists want. No state means no power but their own. I`m not saying the state can`t a be bad and oppressive thing, it can but it can also be a good thing. We need the state, we need a good state to have a good society. Only with Socialists in goverment can we put an end to Capitalism.

von Mises
1st April 2003, 15:15
And with only socialists the state wouldn't be oppressive?

Please learn something about economics, do you really think that companies just love competiting with other companies, or that it would be easier to make it a bit harder to enter their market?

Som
2nd April 2003, 03:16
I do object the idea that lives among many left anarchist that the great evil is capitalism and not the state. If you're interested you really have to read something from Errico Maletesta, an Italian left anarchist, who lived before the uprise of fascism. Here is a short story

I think malatesta just puts forth a sentiment thats probably rather common among anarchists.

The collectivists, communists and other social anarchists of course recognize simple things like someone has as much a right not to join a commune as they do to join one.

I doubt you'd find that most would have anything against the individualists, the problem comes when the individualists are associated with capitalism, the establishment of private property.

Its not that anarchists view capitalism as THE evil instead of the state, its not about priotizing. It often comes to the idea that the relationship between the property owner and someone on his property is essentially the same as that as the governer and citizen.

But on the otherhand, you say that it's either slavery or crippling out on the streets, and this of course isn't true either.

I wouldn't make so bold a statement. For a few maybe it isn't true, those that can afford it, but there will always be a large working class of people exploited under this unprotected system, and for them it is true.
For the rest, I think they'd just enjoy being able to be secured in the basics that a free society can provide.

With this, the concept of freedom only if you can afford it is unnacceptable.

But I wouldn't call the US situation true capitalism, more syndicalism or a mixed economy. So in my opinion the term is more abused.

I don't think this is the first time i've pestered you with definitions on this, but the US sure isn't syndicalist at all.
Syndicalism is worker run industries, 'we dont need the boss' type of worker owned cooperatives.
These are rare occurance in the US.

Its not really a mixed economy either, as that implies some public or state ownership, though I guess this could vaguely apply.

Corporate mercantalism maybe?

von Mises
2nd April 2003, 08:28
Corporate mercantalism maybe?

You're right, I mixed them up :oops:. This is what I meant.

However, true capitalist societies don't exist. Both Europe and the US are mixed with the difference that the percentage socialism/capitalism differs between the different countries.


Its not that anarchists view capitalism as THE evil instead of the state, its not about priotizing. It often comes to the idea that the relationship between the property owner and someone on his property is essentially the same as that as the governer and citizen.

Yes, but the fundamental difference is that one can protect himself against this. You cannot protect yourself against the state. The monopoly on the use of violence essentially means that the lowest clerk has more power than the wealthiest CEO. I know that these are somewhat innertwined in real life, but this is essentially true.


With this, the concept of freedom only if you can afford it is unnacceptable.

I didn't mean this. You can start up your own shop. The only thing libertarianism says is that if you as a society allow rights next to the "natural" rights, this automatically means that you unvoluntarily lessen the freedom of another individual.

hazard
2nd April 2003, 08:29
the original was a good post

I even copied and pasted it for later retrieval