Che's and Castro's Cuba....the truth exposed!!! - How Cuba i

[Anti communist]

To understand my passion on this issue of anti communism and pro Americanism (new word) you have to understand my background. It all started many yrs ago in Havana, Cuba where I was born in the height of the cold war in the mid 60's, impoverished, with parents who had no future for their son and were very worried. I then came here in "71.

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It's gonna seem like I'm getting way off topic now but I'm trying to paint a picture here and in the end you'll see what I mean.

Anyway, my parents were always very pro America and anti Castro. My mom especially always talked about this great country and it's accomplishments. She had to talk in private without the gov't knowing this or it could cost her her life. Some of the accomplishments she talked about include putting a man on the moon, saving the world in WWII (we might all be speaking German or Japanese and we wouldn't be controlling our destinies today if it wasn’t for the US/UK, and yes the USSR), keeping the Soviet Union from expanding their empire and from making the whole world communist (or we might all be speaking Russian if we hadn't out spent the Soviet Union in the cold war), just to name 3 things. Oh yeah, and the US had food where there was very, very little in Cuba. She also visited NYC in 1950 or so by the way.

My dad also visited to see the Sebring, FL 12 hour race in the 50's with his Cuban born friend named Billy Vandermier (I shit you not). I think his father was Dutch. My dad used to race rallies in Cuba in the mid 50's in MG's, Jaguars, Triumphs, etc. He loved anything American or British. I know the above examples are all British.

He had a Jaguar XK 100. He had the fastest engine offered at the time for that car and he had special racing steering on it where you just needed to turn the steering wheel like 90 degrees each way to turn the wheels completely. He said that made it a ***** to park. He had that car until the 1980's and it was like a '56 model. Auto parts (and just about anything) are a real ***** to get since Castro took over in '59 so you have to take care of your cars, and more often than not you have to make your own parts. He was a master mechanic, and had a small machine shop, or what remained of it after Castro took it all, so he often made his own parts for himself and others (for a nominal fee of course, and believe it or not, that wasn't allowed because it was considered a capitalist venture). He was just looking to put a few extra pesos in his pocket and it wasn't allowed. In a communist society alsmost everyone makes the same money which is about the equivilent of us making $100 a month here. You can't live on that. Doctors and other such profesionals make a little more and get a little better appartment, etc.

Anyway, If you look at current video from Cuba, you'll see that almost all the cars are old 40's and 50's American cars. He also had a 1937 Broughs Superior British motorcycle. That bike ran until at least 1980. Jay Leno has a restored one of these. Anyway he lent it to a cop who drove it into the Venezuelan embassy in 1980 to seek political assylum. That's where the Cuban boat lift thing started in 1980, at that embassy. He never saw the bike again.

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Life was very good until Castro took over. It was a society much like the US and the language and weather were the major differences. You had poor, middle class, and rich. There were Woolworth and Sears stores, American goods, etc. Then one day in '60 or '61 everyone who went to sleep rich or middle class awoke, the next day as poor as can possibly be. Castro "nationalized" all private assets like houses, businesses, and bank accts were emptied. My dad had a prosperous printing business with his father and brother. One day, they woke up and the gov't, not them, now owned over $500,000 in assets, machinery, and cash that used to belong to them. What a bummer that was. Now Cuban citizens could no longer control their own destinies. That sucks!!!!!!!! And might I add that Castro is a billionaire while his people are starving.

Then, shortly after Castro took over which was on Jan 1st '59, the political killings started. Then in '60 I think it was, he finally declared himself a communist and took sides with the Soviet Union. And then we got the Bay of Pigs incident in '61 and the Cuban missle crisis in '62 where the US and Soviets almost went to nuclear war. But once again, the US came out ahead. What a great country this is. No one can control our destinies except us and our elected officials (not an unelected dictaor).

Now, here comes the good part and it's amazingly similar to what happened between the US and Iraq in '91 and now where we left him in power only to haunt us later. Are you ready for this? Here it is.................IT COULD HAVE ALL BEEN PREVENTED!!!!!!!!!!!

Before Castro took over there was a right wing dictator named Batista. Yes he was a dictator and corrupt from what I understand but there were rich, poor, middle class, and you could own businesses, provide for you families, and prosper. When Castro took over you saw what happened above, and everyone was dirt poor and lacked the bare neceseties of life.

Anyway, Castro didn't just take over one day. He was a leftist political activist who spoke out against Batista and even tried to overthrow him. He committed an act of terrorism in a University and Batista jailed him but he spared his life and later even let him out of prison. Castro then went to Central and or South America where he hooked up wth some leftist rebels, one of which was the famous Che Guevara.

As far as Che goes, when he helped Castro take over Cuba in '59, he became Castro's right hand man and therefore had as much blood on his hands as Castro did from political murders. Che, like Castro, was a murderous thug. But he is held in high esteem only because he has that “rebel” look. The fact that Cuba had the highest standard of living in the Carribean, and was relatively free, and very prosperous before Castro, and now has an economy in shambles while Castro is a billionaire, proves that Che’s and Castro’s
Ideology is, to say it nicely, flawed.

Anyway, going back to Central America, Castro then went to Mexico and recruited a few more rebels and they set off for Cuba to start a guerilla war against Batista. They ran their war from the Sierra Maestra mountains and in '59 they finally toppled Batista. If Batista had kept him in jail, or taken him out, the Cuban people would not have suffered for 44yrs (and counting) unfer Castro.

[Anti communist]

I forgot to mention the following:

a small example of the missery and fear that the Cuban people live under: You get 1 oz of coffee a month, 1 egg a day, 1 piece of bread a day, 1 pair of shoes a yr, kids get 1 toy a yr around Christmas time. Not to mention that if you talk against the gov't you disapear and are jailed/tortured or killed. See the following links for a first hand account of this.

Armando Valladares
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=625

http://www.blackstoneaudio.com/audiobook.cfm?ID=1069

http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/aghop.html

[sc4r]

And u think that was the typical cuban experience do you ?

[Politrickian]

Most Cubans would be better off with Batista, if the majority of the cubans would be bourgeois.

However, this has never been the case.

1 Bourgeois Cuban does not tell the opinion of all cubans

[Anti communist]

One more point. How many people do you see risking their lives on a raft to go from Key West back to Cuba or from Texas back to Mexico? The answer is none. So this must not be such a bad place and it might actually be pretty good if they are willing to risk their lives to come here. The inner tube ride from Cuba to Key West doesn't have such a high success rate and they still risk it. They face sharks, drowning, sun burns, etc and maybe 50% make it if that much.

[Sirion]

That is a problem all Latin America face, not only Cuba. In fact, Cuba has less emigrants to USA than most countries in thes same region.

[englandsgay]

I thought all those crappy 3rd world communist countries sucked so much was because they weren't industrialized when the "revolution" came about so it wasn't a "true" maxist revolution.

my understanding of marxism is that in order for it to work right you need the revolution in an industrialized nation, only problem is no industrialized nation would want to have a revolution.

[El Che]

"My dad had a prosperous printing business with his father and brother. One day, they woke up and the gov't, not them, now owned over $500,000 in assets, machinery, and cash that used to belong to them. What a bummer that was. Now Cuban citizens could no longer control their own destinies. That sucks!!!!!!!! And might I add that Castro is a billionaire while his people are starving."

It`s a BIG change I know. It would take some getting used to. But I don`t think it sucks at all. I don`t think not having the freedom to exploit other people`s work "sucks". The expression "control your own destiny [whatever that is]" is rather dumb isn`t it? Do you know any society where you are allowed to do everything? Where there are no laws?

Socialism has nothing to do with telling you how to live your life and it has everything to do with stoping people from harming you and/or you from harming them in a very serious way. Because making a profit of people is harming them, yes, even if they don`t realise it and they don`t complain.

Thats why people hate us "commies", we are the party crashers. Here the Capitalists are, having a hell of a nice time and living the good life, nobody seems to have a problem with it, they`ve convienced others and they`ve convienced themselves that what they do is okay, and we have to go and spoil everything by pointing out the black but transparent truth. Of course its easier to keep believing the world is flat.

Anyway Anti communist, I`m sorry that you went through some bad times, I don`t support Castro or his undemocratic regime and I think the fact that Cuba is poor has more to do with the incompatibility betweeb national Socialist reformes and international Capitalist world order and/or the possible corruptness of the regime than with the inherent, fatal unproductivity of Socialist economics.

[sc4r]

No offence but the reason Cuba is poor is to do with the US trade block and pretty much nothing else.

For a capitalist to deny this (I know u are not it's a general point) is almost too ludicrous for words since one of the very justifications they give for their own ideas is that it promotes free trade.

Would a small island like Cuba ever expect to be as rich as the USA? No; Would it be better off though? undoubtedly yes.

[redstar2000]

A most amusing story, Anticommunist, but I think I can top it.

I knew this obnoxious woman in California whose father had owned a factory in Hungary. Things were really looking great for them after the war. One morning (in 1948), daddy got into his small limo and was driven to work. A horrible sight greeted him at "his" factory gate. The proud sign with his name on it was lying against the fence, and a couple of guys were up on laddars mounting a new sign: Red Star Tractor Factory No. 12

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Now go crawl back under your rock, worm!

:cool:

[Larissa]

Actually, I wouldn't expect less from you "caged" worms!

Take a look at this e-mail I recieved from a colleague on a mailing list...

"It is said repeatedly to try to shut up anyone here in the US who speaks against US war policies. "You wouldn't be able to do that if it weren't for the military protecting your freedom of speech." You will have to imagine the "if looks could only kill" look in the eye of one US Marine spouse who said this to me once when I was passing out leaflets in opposition to the wars by proxy in Central America ... . She obviously wanted dissent (and dissenters) to disappear, and felt very threatened by even the rather innocuous signs I had concocted in the most patriotic language I could muster (which was considerable, since at the time I still thought the flag could be redeemed by thorough washing).

Of course it's ridiculous. The only thing that protects freedom of speech is using it. No military power in the world can protect it. Military power cannot protect freedom or democracy in general. The irony is that any dictatorship in the world would be very pleased with the folks who make such claims, since they invariably are the ones who agree with the government... Really, is there any government in the world that would prevent its citizens from praising it?

But it's also understandable that people who have loved ones in combat zones (or who may end up in combat zones any time) will want very much to believe that the risk is worth it, that their loved ones are fighting for freedom and democracy, flag and country. The illusion doesn't protect anybody - here or there - but it's the way they cope with the stress. So visible dissent to this view is quite disturbing to them.

So we are called unpatriotic, traitors and communists and now terrorists (and of course always accused of "helping the enemy" ) even in relative peacetime for simply disagreeing with the federal government on matters of war and peace. A common feeling is that fighting in a war is always patriotic, no matter how stupid the soldier may think the war is; fighting against a war, on the other hand, especially after the war has started, is widely viewed to be more or less unpatriotic. The same people generally don't have the same problem with dissent over domestic policies. It is only in foreign policy that our political leaders are assumed to have godlike knowledge and wisdom. We ALL know they are hopelessly ignorant and unwise about problems here at home....

I am envious of those of you who say you live in countries where people are relaxed about "patriotism" and not "rabid" about it. Here, it seems pathological so often, with the flag (the primary object of idolatry) used to beat up the heretics. The common invocation "God Bless the USA" sounds innocuous until you realize that the unspoken rest of the sentence is actually "and to hell with the rest of the world... ." I never questioned the patriotism religion myself until it was used against me (isn't that always the way?).

Meanwhile, the most hopeful lantranews I've read today is about the 3 UK soldiers who refused to fight and the snippet about 1/3 of UK reservists not showing up when called. Sure hope it's true. We'd probably still be in Vietnam No. 1 today if it weren't for the fact that more and more US draftees never showed up for induction. The number of no-shows reached 50% eventually, I'm told (I imagine calculated for a certain period of call-ups, although I'm not sure).

Wish we could figure out a way for Bush to pull out of this while saving face -- tempting though it is to just wish that he falls on his face....

Peace, Cathy Flick"

BTW, just for your info, Cuba is about one of the best countries I ever lived in. and I have lived in both, the US and Cuba, among other countries including mine, which I love.

(Edited by Larissa at 3:23 pm on Mar. 31, 2003)

[Larissa]

And I bet you must be "so proud" of the CIA's School of Americas, right? Not to mention the countless tortures carried on by your beloved agency.

(Edited by Larissa at 3:30 pm on Mar. 31, 2003)

[Anti communist]

Larissa can I ask what your country of origin is, or your parents' please? And can I get a rough idea of your age please?

El Che said: I don`t think not having the freedom to exploit other people`s work "sucks". The expression "control your own destiny [whatever that is]" is rather dumb isn`t it? Do you know any society where you are allowed to do everything? Where there are no laws?

El Che, what you are describing in your first sentence above sounds like slavery. No one puts a gun to the head of workers in this country. They work where they want, within their capabilities and educational level. They can quit their jobs and go work elsewhere.

As far as the part of controling your own destiny, that means that in a free country like the US you can, withing the letter of the law, choose your path in life through education, work, etc. In a country like Cuba for example, if you want to be an engineer but the gov't realizes you are an incredible baseball player, even though you get a free education, and even if you get a degree as an engineer, the gov't will make you play on the national baseball team and you wll not have a choice. That's what I mean.

SC4R, no matter if there was free trade in Cuba like there is in China right now, the people would still be working for Fidel Castro while he keeps putting billions in the bank for himself. Look at China, everything you pick up these days says made in China on it. But people still can't go on capital ventures. They are in effect workers of the gov't, for the gov't. ***THAT AND WHAT GOES ON IN CUBA IS WHAT YOU CALL EXPLOITATION OF WORKERS***, not what happens in the US. Also, read the part of my post where I mentioned that my father couldn't even make and sell auto parts in his garage because that's a capitalist venture. That's extreme.

Redstar200 said: A most amusing story, Anticommunist, but I think I can top it. I knew this obnoxious woman in California whose father had owned a factory in Hungary. Things were really looking great for them after the war. One morning (in 1948), daddy got into his small limo and was driven to work. A horrible sight greeted him at "his" factory gate. The proud sign with his name on it was lying against the fence, and a couple of guys were up on laddars mounting a new sign: Red Star Tractor Factory No. 12 Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Now go crawl back under your rock, worm!

What's your point? That when a country turns communist, people lose their assets and freedom? hanks for helping me make my point.

Larissa and friend said: "It is said repeatedly to try to shut up anyone here in the US who speaks against US war policies. "You wouldn't be able to do that if it weren't for the military protecting your freedom of speech." Of course it's ridiculous. The only thing that protects freedom of speech is using it. No military power in the world can protect it. Military power cannot protect freedom or democracy in general.

Larissa, I know that's not the whole quote from your friend but I wanted to comment on this part.

The military IS the defender of liberty and freedom of speech. Just look at WWII. Hitler, Japan and Italy were trying to take over the world and force their views and system of gov't on all of us. But, they were stopped by the US/UK/USSR and many others. If Hitler had his way, no one who didn't have blue eyes might be alive today. So the military did defend the freedom of their indivdual gov'ts by acting aginst an enemy. the US definitely defended the freedom of the American people in that war.

About the other part of your friend's email (war protesting and supporting the troops, etc). Everyone is being very careful these days when they protest by saying they support the troops but not the war. I think that's very important because of what happened in Vietnam. When those soldiers came back, the anti war crowd were spitting on them and calling them baby killers, unlike the WWII guys who were considered the savers of humanity. Now being that both the WWII and Vietnam soldiers saw the same type of violence and killing for so long, you know that a certain number of them will be in bad emotional shape when they return. But when on top of that you insult them and make them feel like what they did is wrong, like they did with the Vietnam guys, those poor guys had major emotional trouble when they got back.

Now you might say, well they WERE killing babies, etc. That's irrelevant to them because all they did was answer the call when their country called on them. They were drafted and they either had to go to Vietnam or go to Canada and never be able to return or be prosecuted. Of course we know that Carter pardoned the guys that went to Canada in his first month in office so most of them did come back.

So, family members of the soldiers, and even people who don't have family members fighting, are very careful not to make that mistake again. I remember that it wasn't until the mid 80's that th Vietnam guys started getting some respect.

[Pete]

The military IS the defender of liberty and freedom of speech. Just look at WWII. Hitler, Japan and Italy were trying to take over the world and force their views and system of gov't on all of us. But, they were stopped by the US/UK/USSR and many others. If Hitler had his way, no one who didn't have blue eyes might be alive today. So the military did defend the freedom of their indivdual gov'ts by acting aginst an enemy. the US definitely defended the freedom of the American people in that war.

The Propaganda machine speaks. I'm sorry Anti, but you have been brainwashed well. Try reading a non-American history textbook. Please. America and Britian funded the Nazi experiments, and made us of the 'horrible discoveries' after the fact. I quote in that sentence to show how quickly the means of getting them where forgotten. Profit at all costs. Long Live America, Leader of the Free World! Even if Their Glorious Leader Is Not Democratically Elected! By His Own Nation or the "Free World"!!

[Anti communist]

You are showing your ignorance again. Bush was elected by the procedures laid out in the US constitution, a document which you hate so much. Let me explain it to you leberals one more time so you see how he won the election fair and square.

The constitution says that the one with 270 electoral votes wins the election, not the one with the popular vote. See the following link and go to the 3rd page to see why it was decided to do it this way instead of the popular vote.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/...y/aa022000a.htm (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa022000a.htm)

Since it was so close in Fl which was the state that would put one or the other in the lead, they both contested it. But since the democrats wanted to keep counting over and over until they got the results they wanted (because since it was so close, and due to human error, it's possible that during one of the countings Gore would come out ahead), the republicans took it to the US Supreme court so they could ****stop the counting and accept the present results which showed Bush the winner after several attempts by the democrats to recount in their favor****. It was not taken to the Supreme court to they could declare who would win. They simply ruled on wether it was legal for the counting to continue for so long, they didn't rule on who would win.

Also, if I remember right Gore was trying to have the votes of servicemen oversees discounted because he knows that military usually vote republican.

And as an extra bonus, there were several independant studies done afterwards by diff newspapers that all concluded that Bush indeed win the most votes in Fl.

[abstractmentality]

Anti communist:
first, i will simply talk about the classic american dream thought of being able to control your own life. this thought, actually, is rather funny, but sad in the same sense as it does NOT exist. once again, i will refer you to Jay MacCleod's ethnography Aint No Makin' It. in this ethnography, a college sophomore, who had previously been working with high school kids from the projects, began to write down many of his interactions with these kids. he wrote down how hard they tried in school, their family backgrounds, their personal habbits, who their friends were, just about everything you can think of, and you can read these conversations in the ethnography. so, you have a broad range of students, trying at different levels, with different backgrounds, and different experiences.

he then revisted them, i think, 7 years later. guess what he found. none of the kids he worked with, with the exception of one, made it out of the projects; they were all still in the ghetto, only one with a stable job. why was this the case? one of the students finished college and still has nothing. a few did some college, and have nothing. some went to private schools for junior high, and had nothing. one that were previously straightedge was now in prison for selling drugs. (hence the name Aint No Makin' It.)

yes, the social climbing can happen, but for every one of them that do their are thousands that dont. how did this one person make it in this ethnography? he stepped on and exploited others.

their are so many social structures that exist within america, i really can not even beging to get into them. if you want to learn more, just take a cultural anthropology class, or read the ethnography i am making referece to. whenever i hear of somebody talking about controlling your own life, about social mobility, and all of that other stuff, and how in america, it is all possible, i feel sick because of the indoctrination that is evident.

now, onto the democracy of america:
this subject, again, is just to broad a topic to tackle right now (im busy doing some anti-war stuff), but i will talk about the electoral college just for a moment.

the electoral college was put into place because the founders did not trust the people, flat out. they saw them as a populace that could not be trusted, and the electoral college is a way that can take some power away. (another would be the fact that senators were not initially chosen by the people.) another reason for this was the attempt to get a broader sense of power into voting by giving less populated areas vote more weight.

however, since then, the urbanization of america has occured, making the votes of people of rural areas weight increasingly more relative to the urban dweller or san francisco or Los Angeles. the system of the electoral college now has the vote of a person from the least populate state weighing over 20 times as much as a persons vote from california. one man one vote? i think not. just because the system of the electoral college has been in place for as long as it has does not make it a legitimate form of democracy. calling this system a democracy does not do justice to the word democracy.

beyond that, their are plenty of faults with american "democracy," but since you only made reference to the electoral college, i will stop there.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 10:18 pm on Mar. 31, 2003)