The end of the War - For every member

[mentalbunny]

I was thinking, I'd like tp pick your brains on the matter of after the war. What would you like to see happen and what do you think will actually happen? It would be nice to see all colours of the spectrum on this one.

[Ghost Writer]

I would like to see Baghdad, and all relevant towns sacked and secured. The fact that we are having a problem in such a strategic point as Basrah would indicate that this could continue for a while longer than the American media unfairly led the American people to believe. I predict it will take 3-6 months to fully secure Iraq. Some of the dirty tricks we are seeing on the part of the Iraqis could mean that it might take even longer. Movement of Al Qaeda in from Jordan, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia is a troublesome occurrence. However, the more secure the area becomes the less incidents of terrorism we will see.

I believe Iraq will launch a chemical attack when we tighten our control in and around Baghdad. I believe that we will find the WMD that justified this war in the first place. We have found large caches of gas masks, chemical suits, and atropine, which is an antidote for nerve agents like VX. Everything would indicate that they are prepared to use these weapons. It boils down to whether or not there is enough command and control on their side to carry out such an order. Whatever the case, our troops are prepared.

I am concerned when I see our forces taking POW's without MOP level 4 gear on. It has been a concern that one of these terrorists might inject themselves with a biological agent and walk around a shopping mall. I think all prisoners should be placed in quarantine for 20 days before they are considered safe. This is one of my concerns, since Iraq is know to possess some of the worst biological agents. Furthermore, it is known that Russia is actively selling them armament. The Soviet Union had the most extensive bio-weapons divisions in the world, and I would not put it past them to sell their resistant strains to Iraq. We should be concerned about their relations, as they seem to want revenge for Afghanistan.

My prediction is that the most difficult task of the war will be the Turkisk/Kurdish problem in the North, and maintaining the integrity of the current borders. Finding a democratic framework that will work well to address their problem with the Shiite, Sunni, and Kurdish demographics could pose as many problems as Nigeria's diverse regional demographic has been for that country. Nigeria was pieced together by a colonizing force, while Iraq was held together by a murdering madman, but the similarities are striking. In addition to the demographics situation, Iraq also shares a similarity of having a large military/police institution to keep people in line. The coalition forces must do everything to completely dismantle this particularly dangerous political interest group, or they may face a long procession of military coups, and factional infighting when we leave Iraq. Democracy might prove to be more difficult than first imagined for these reasons. The system will fall under constant attack from the inside and outside. This is a challenge that all democracies must face. How they deal with such issues will determine the strength and integrity of the system they create, post Saddam.

(Edited by Ghost Writer at 6:59 pm on Mar. 30, 2003)

[Pete]

We have found large caches of gas masks, chemical suits, and atropine, which is an antidote for nerve agents like VX.

Why do defensive materials mean that tehy have the weapons? Many nations have these things in case they are attacked. ANd they where keeping them in a hostiple, so if America used a bio attack they could treat there people. Norm if you believe that people have no right to defend themselves you are an idiot. Say as you wish, just use your brain aswell.

[Ghost Writer]

No, you trying to attribute the brutal nature of the Iraqi regime to the U.S. military makes you an idiot.

[Pete]

Why is it a crime for a nation to hold gas masks and vaccinces??? Norm, they are prepared to defend against anypossible collition strike, and you criticize them on it?

[redstar2000]

Mentalbunny, what I would like to see happen in occupied-Iraq is what is happening now in occupied Palestine writ large.

That is, an absolute nightmare for the occupation troops in which they never feel safe...and in which their daily atrocities against civilians are on Al Jeezera every night.

With any luck, the U.S. will try to "stabilize" the situation by invading Syria, Jordan, and Iran...provoking a much more massive war and a much more massive anti-imperialist coalition around the world.

Australia would almost certainly back out of the axis at this point and even Tony Lapdog would start getting nervous.

Best of all, the grueling nature of this "war without end" might actually provoke some serious rebellion within the U.S. :biggrin:

And it could happen like this. We'll see.

:cool:

[Ghost Writer]

Mentalbunny, what I would like to see happen in occupied-Iraq is what is happening now in occupied Palestine writ large.

That is, an absolute nightmare for the occupation troops in which they never feel safe...and in which their daily atrocities against civilians are on Al Jeezera every night.

With any luck, the U.S. will try to "stabilize" the situation by invading Syria, Jordan, and Iran...provoking a much more massive war and a much more massive anti-imperialist coalition around the world.

Australia would almost certainly back out of the axis at this point and even Tony Lapdog would start getting nervous.

Best of all, the grueling nature of this "war without end" might actually provoke some serious rebellion within the U.S.

That is the worst display of political prediction I have ever seen in my life. Surely, you do not take yourself seriously.


And it could happen like this. We'll see.

No I don't think we will see it. That's my assessment of your "political science".


(Edited by Ghost Writer at 7:05 pm on Mar. 30, 2003)

[kelvin90701]

One of two possibilies:

1) Iraqi grows into a western style democracy. Just like Marshall Plan Germany and Japan. Then democracy seeps across into bordering Islamic nations. Peace in the middle east. Modern western democracies do not wage war with each other.

2) A cluster fuck. Tribal warefare breaks out. Reconstruction fails to unify the tribes in Iraq. A prolonged peace keeping action by the USA to prevent the tribes from killing each other.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 6:50 pm on Mar. 30, 2003
Mentalbunny, what I would like to see happen in occupied-Iraq is what is happening now in occupied Palestine writ large.


There is so much injustice in this world, much of in occupied Palestine. By your own nomenclature, Palestine is occupied. The Isreali don't belong there. The regions that are left to the Palestinians are completely surrounded. In the 20 or so regions left to them, they are all completely surrounded. When the Isreali tanks incur into Palestine, they are not crossing a border between two nations. Imagine Kansas City, Phoenix Az, Dallas Tx, and Atlanta GA completely surrounded by hostile forces. That is the situtation the Palestinians are up against scaled down. Don't believe the propaganda. The Palestinians are basically living in city sized concentration camps and are getting squeezed into smaller and smaller areas all the time. Now can you imagine why they are so pissed.

[redstar2000]

SN, you strike me as the kind of boor that goes into a casino to criticize how other people bet.

Why don't you wait for the cards to be dealt or the dice to be thrown before you tell me how bad my bet was?

And if my prediction is "the worst you've ever seen", you have a very short memory. You've already forgotten that "short, quick war" that the axis was going to fight in Iraq.

Sometimes, SN, you sound almost sensible...but then your evil twin takes over and out pours abuse and nonsense. You should try to do something about that.

:cool:

[CruelVerdad]

I will like that the people could choose who they want to manage their country. >But we all know that Bush is going to interfer so they have an Pro-american government...

[Ghost Writer]

And if my prediction is "the worst you've ever seen", you have a very short memory. You've already forgotten that "short, quick war" that the axis was going to fight in Iraq.

Yeah, you didn't hear me towing that line either. I thought it was a little to optimistic. I criticized those making that bet, as much as I just criticized you. Luckily, I don't think anyone in the administration made that prediction, as they always erred on the side of caution. I think it was all these general types that they still have parading around the news rooms. Hopefully, those networks are looking for different analysts. People who were closer to the target. I think Major Bob Bivaloque [Sp] of Fox News is one of the best that I have seen. To think he's only a major, and he is showing up many of the big-headed generals. Of course, he was special forces.

(Edited by Ghost Writer at 8:00 pm on Mar. 30, 2003)

[mentalbunny]

Personally I would like to see UN troops take over from the coalition, because now a war has been started I believe it should be finished. Blair, Bush and all their cronies should be thrown out of power.

After the war there should be a new state of Kurdistan and the UN should help secure Iraq, but not necessarily hand over to the iraqi people because then most likely we'd end up with a mad Mullah on our hands.

I'm really concerned about the Turk/Kurd situation, I hope that can stay under control.

SN, isn't it obvious that the Iraqis have chemical protection because they expect that the US will attack them with chemical weapons. Maybe they have chemical weapons themselves, but I doubt it.

I'm really in two minds, if it's a complete catastrophe then we can learn from the lessons and a lot of shit can be cleared in the long run, or at least that's what I hope but I also want it to work because I hate seeing people suffer.

[Tkinter1]

Redstar, wouldn't you rather see the US live up to it's promise instead of wishing death and chaos on the coalition and middle east?

[Ghost Writer]

SN, isn't it obvious that the Iraqis have chemical protection because they expect that the US will attack them with chemical weapons. Maybe they have chemical weapons themselves, but I doubt it.

Maybe it would be more obvious to me, if I was afflicted with CJD, or some other disease that destroys the brain. If you believe that line of bullshit, I don't no if there is any cure for your disorder.

[RedComrade]

It is my personal opinion that Iraq is about two things a. China b. expanding American interests in a very rich but very anti-american region. When I say China you may be asking yourself what? It is my opinion the coming decades will be defined with an increasingly hostile confrontation with China much like the Cold War of last century. In the immediate future the war is about deterring China from intervening in a North Korean War. It was a demonstration basically to show them whose boss, what happens when you mess with the red, white, and blue and how it could turn out for the North Koreans and Chinese forces if they decide to intervene. It is also about securing petroleum resources and territory to be used in the coming Cold War. A puppet regime in Iraq will serve as a giant hub of U.S military activity and with its proximity to China it will be very useful and could be used as a base for air campaigns, naval assets, missiles etc. Also control of petroleum will have a choke affect on China, start acting powerful? boom you just lost half of your petroleum imports better go to so and so and pay them double the price. The second part about expanding american power in the region is preety self explanatory. The Middle East is the only region in the world that untill now was lacking in a U.S puppet regime (i dont count israel because of there non-arab ethnicity they lack the kind of influence the U.S would prefer) that would dutifully enforce pro-americanism and serve as a base of pro western propaganda and military support. Having a number of arab puppets will be key if the U.S is to maintain its position as the one and only superpower which it will stop at nothing to do, I assure you.

[redstar2000]

"Wouldn't I rather see the U.S. live up to its promise...?"

Tinkter1, what in the world do you mean by that?

Are you speaking of some metaphysical concept, like "America, the shining beacon of freedom, hope, and prosperity to the world"?

Or do you speak of America's actual historical track record which is one of utter infamy, past and present?

Whatever the case, I hope the Iraqis resist American occupation with everything they can muster. I hope the U.S. imperialists grow even greedier and more reckless. I hope they do attempt to militarily occupy the entire Middle East and get hopelessly trapped in a Vietnam-style war. And I hope the U.S. casualties are so enormous that common sense will finally penetrate the patriotism-soaked skulls of the American people...the price of Empire is too high.

But, I concede, it may well take nothing short of catastrophic defeat in World War III to bring the American people (those that survive) to their senses. Right now, the mood in America is like that of Germany and Japan in the early 1940s..."we are invincible."

That's not true, of course...but what price will have to paid to learn that?

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 10:42 pm on Mar. 30, 2003)

[Just Joe]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 12:18 am on Mar. 31, 2003
Personally I would like to see UN troops take over from the coalition, because now a war has been started I believe it should be finished. Blair, Bush and all their cronies should be thrown out of power.

This isn't fucking Mastermind. Peoples lives are going to be lost here.


After the war there should be a new state of Kurdistan and the UN should help secure Iraq, but not necessarily hand over to the iraqi people because then most likely we'd end up with a mad Mullah on our hands.

yeah, why bother giving the Iraqi people there own state. they must be too dumb to elect there own leaders. What if the Iraqi people do elect a 'mad Mullah'? another invasion? or maybe just a nice, safe military dictator. The US should have a long list of those. Its placed enough in South America.

To anyone on this site who says there left, but thinks it is best now to get behind the troops, or that 'Saddam has to go one way or the other', or that this war has started so has to be finished, youre a fucking disgrace.

[OzWizard]

Be careful what you wish for, fellaz. It might just come true. America can't handle casualties on TV, they talk tough but can't back it up. Its the national characteristic.

[Tkinter1]

Redstar,

I was trying to say wouldn't you rather see the US live up to its promise to liberate and rebuild Iraq??

Or would you really rather see millions of deaths and WWIII?

[redstar2000]

"Would I rather see the U.S. live up to its promise to liberate and re-build Iraq?"

Now, of course I would, Tinkter1. Why I can see it now: the new Minister of Public Welfare -- Santa Claus; the new Finance Minister -- Tooth Fairy; the Supreme Commander of Occupation Forces -- Jesus H. "Fucking" Christ.

What planet do you live on, Tinkter1?

We've long been familiar with the kinds of "democracies" that the U.S. sponsers...pliant ones. I'm surprised, in fact, that they don't formally recognize "Saudi" Arabia as a "democracy"...

That there will be projects to "rebuild Iraq" is a certainty...every corporate CEO who's ever so much as stood next to George W. Bush in the men's room at a private club will be in line for a contract. Since the Iraqis will be footing the bill...how much actual work will be done is problematical. Loot and plunder will be the main U.S. task in post-war Iraq...while dodging bullets from resistance fighters.

Wishing for the U.S. to be "nice" in Iraq is like wishing for the Germans to be "nice" in Poland!

Am I "in favor" of World War III? I don't think the question turns on my opinion, but...if the whole world comes to believe, in time, that World War III is the only alternative to slavery under the Americans...how do you think they will decide?

I was making an observation...that Americans may well be so pig-headed as to really believe they have both the right and the ability to rule the world. They're wrong on both counts...but it may take catastrophic defeat in World War III to teach them that important lesson.

Sorry about that.

:cool:


(Edited by redstar2000 at 9:18 pm on Mar. 31, 2003)

[kylie]

my hope for the outcome of this war is that the US takes so long to get into bagdad, that the people rise up themselves. this would make it much harder for the US to exert control over Iraq. what are they gonna do, attack that to?(well actually they probably would, but it would damage the USs reputation even more than its already bad state)

[mentalbunny]

Just Joe, I'm sorry if you don't like what I said, I was being at least slightly realistic, we can't possibly expect them to pull out entirely. However as redstar says, we can't trust them to really fulfill their promises,I believe that Bush and his cronies have no intention of doing anything other than benefit themselves. What I don't understand is where China comes in, I know they are preparing for some kind of action but I don't understand why.

Feoric, people won't rise up while they think that Saddam will sruvive, remember the previous big uprising and the US said they'd support the Iraqis but failed so the Iraqis were butchered? They remember the US going back on their word and they're wary, as they should be, I wouldn't trust Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of them with anything.

[Invader Zim]

I would like to see the UN organise free and fair elections so the the Iraqi people choose their leader. Not the USA put some new tin pot dictator in power. I am convinced that would happen as i know both the British Gov and the USA gov could not organise a piss-up in a brewery...

[Moskitto]

I would also like to see the UN and Iraqi opposition organise free and fair elections for the people of Iraq, and Saddam Hussein put in a microwave oven AK47 avatar style (kidding), in reality, I would suspect a situation similar to a cross between Vietnam and Northern Ireland.

[Silent Eye]

Perhaps an Afghanistan -like situation would be a good thing. I do not support the current government at all, but the people dont deserve this. The Iraqi people deserve better. If they drag this on, they might wither away US support.