the religious

[reddevil]

i've noticed there are some on here who, whether for practical or bigoted reasons, reject the presence of the religious within our ranks. i find this most unnecessary and closed minded. socialists have always viewed religion as inherently illogical and destructive but this should never result in an attack on the religious themselves who, despite being horribly misguided, are mostly good people.
here's a list of religious leftists i admire.
note that all of them hold some positions on which i disagree

ernesto cardenal
oscar romero
rafael correa
hugo chavez
mahatma gandhi
nelson mandela
leo tolstoy
daniel ortega
tony benn
george galloway
gerry adams
jesse jackson
martin luther king
malcolm x
yoshua ben yosef (jesus christ)
charles dickens

[Plagueround]

While I don't consider myself a religious or very spiritual person, I recognize that the majority of people are. Whether this comes from truth, dellusion, or Jayne's bicameral mind theory, I try to respect the views these people have. Most of the people you listed usually did the same.

The main problem with religion comes in my view comes from the damage it does in trying to impose itself on others, not the spiritual belief itself. That being said, I think most religious leftists, abrahamic leftists in particular, should take a step back and realize how much the two belief systems contradict each other and how religion can have a very great potential to limit a person...stressing that I don't think it is my job to force them in this matter.

P.S. This probably belongs in the religion subforum of OI, if someone wants to move it.

[Yehuda Stern]

Chavez? Mandela? Correa? Jessie fucking Jackson? Are you high? I don't even agree with your vantage point, but to give these bourgeois politicians as examples has to be the worst way to state your case I've ever seen.

[spice756]

It is not really if one believe in god that is the problem here but religion and the church.Has religion has rules and beliefs.But if one believe in god does not really cause a problem.

The church or any religion has a problems not if one believe in god.It is religion who make wars and divides us.

And it is religion that is not compatible with socialism and communism not god .

[Raúl Duke]

yoshua ben yosef (jesus christ)

:rolleyes:

-------------------------------------------------

It's only co-incidental that the majority of the left is non-theistic.
Here in "our ranks" we have some religious leftists.
Some parties/organizations/etc in real life also allow the religious in.
Others probably don't (AF in UK/Ireland; their principle and aims say "we are against religion" Off-topic: I wish we had an AF like that in the U.S.).

In other words, the left as a whole isn't necessarily "against religion" (although maybe sometimes I wish!).

However, I think there's a point where we have to confront religion itself.
For example, if we protest against something religiously inspired (ban on abortion attempts, creationism place in school attempts, etc) we should not be skittish and point out the root of this problem: which is religion itself.

Although currently at this point the left barely does anything of the sort that is directly opposed to religion (at least not in the U.S.) to my knowledge.

Another thing I must address is that the left, in real life, has done barely anything/nothing against the religious people themselves (to my knowledge)...so such accusations sound hollow.

[reddevil]

Chavez? Mandela? Correa? Jessie ------- Jackson? Are you high? I don't even agree with your vantage point, but to give these bourgeois politicians as examples has to be the worst way to state your case I've ever seen.
my vantage point was not a call to embrace religion but rather a call for tolerance and debate rather than crude secatrian bigotry. chavez is a latter day simon bolivar and his allies are heroes and represent the best hope in the struglle against noeliberalism and US domination in the americas. all hold positions on which i disapprove- abortion, free expression, foreign alliances etc but to label them "bourgeouisse" is absurd. mandela and jackson are not socialists but have been very active in anti-racist struggles and so deserve our praise despite having collaborated on occasion with the forces of neoliberalism

[Yehuda Stern]

Why? Why is it "absurd" to say that Chavez and his allies are bourgeois? Why, if Mandela and Jackson cooperate with imperialism, do they deserve our praise?