what about stalin?

[actmemb]

what do i have to response when they tell me that stalin killed over 25 million people? and when they tell me that cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world? i know things but i want to learn more..

[Catbus]

I'm assuming that they're saying that horrible atrocities have been commited in Communist nations and that Communist nations are always poor.

This is based off of the idea that said nations were Communist, but this is a false claim because when examined the USSR under Stalin's leadership was anything but a workers state, and was essentially just a dictatorship under the guise of Communism.

As for Cuba I don't know enough about their economics to really say anything, but once again Cuba was more of an authoritative Socialist state, and generally speaking authority and leftist politics haven't mixed well.

The basic problem is that people are still hung up on McCarthy-ist ideals, and are ignorant of what the real ideals of Communism are.

[revolution inaction]

Tell them the USSR was state capitalist and Cuba to, a communist country is impossible because communism requires the abolition of countries. The so called communist countries were capitalist because the workers did not have control over the means of production and had to work for a wage

[Redboy]

Tell them to compare cuba to the other capitalist nations around it.

Cuba is not fully communist, yet it's hints of it are what is leading it ahead of the other Caribbean nations.

[Vendetta]

Stalin dragged the good name of communism through the mud and provided anti-communists with much propaganda for years to come.

[Winter]

what do i have to response when they tell me that stalin killed over 25 million people? and when they tell me that cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world? i know things but i want to learn more..

Here's some links! Time to do some homework :D

Stalin info: http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/

Cuba: http://www.cubatruth.org/

[F9]

Tell them the USSR was state capitalist and Cuba to, a communist country is impossible because communism requires the abolition of countries. The so called communist countries where capitalist because the workers did not have control over the means of production and had to work for a wage

This,basically and Stalin was a dictator not a Communist!

Fuserg9:star:

[politics student]

This,basically and Stalin was a dictator not a Communist!

Fuserg9:star:

But without his extreme development we may have been looking at a Nazi victory in ww2.

[revolution inaction]

But without his extreme development we may have been looking at a Nazi victory in ww2.

Without the Stalinists in Spain attacking the revolution and Stalin making deals with the narzis ww2 may not have happened at all, it certainly would have been different and the narzis would have been in a worse position.

[Catbus]

But without his extreme development we may have been looking at a Nazi victory in ww2.


That may be true but anyone who commanded the Red Army could have defeated the Nazis. Plus that's hardly justifies the purges and collective farming.

[F9]

But without his extreme development we may have been looking at a Nazi victory in ww2.

may is the key word.Its not sure!Can you tell for sure?

Fuserg9:star:

[communard resolution]

This,basically and Stalin was a dictator not a Communist!

Fuserg9:star:

I'm still not sure what to think about his 'deal' with the Nazis. Was he really so un-principled that he would ally with fascists only to get a piece of Poland? Or did he really just try to buy time because the Soviet Union wasn't ready for a war just yet?

Assuming the latter was the case, well, I acknowledge you cannot be an idealist in every situation, especially when you have a lot of responsibility.

Imagine you're on the tube/subway train on your way to meet ten friends who will pick you up from the station. A few stops before that station, five Nazi skinheads enter the carriage. You're the only person on the carriage and you carry no weapons. They ask you "friend or foe?"

Will you tell them "I will never be friends with any of you scum".

Or will you say "friend" just to keep them happy for a few stops until your ten friends can enter the carriage and kick the living daylights out of them?

[Winter]

Plus that's hardly justifies the purges and collective farming.

You're against collective farming? :confused:

[Catbus]

You're against collective farming? :confused:

Not at all, but the way that it was implemented in the Soviet Union and how so many people died from the starvation it caused is what I don't agree with. I mean Stalin had really high hopes going into the collectivization, and just because those weren't met is no reason to force people into quasi-slavery.

[Winter]

Not at all, but the way that it was implemented in the Soviet Union and how so many people died from the starvation it caused is what I don't agree with. I mean Stalin had really high hopes going into the collectivization, and just because those weren't met is no reason to force people into quasi-slavery.

Here is a passage from The Stalin Era, by Anna Louise Strong:



American commentators usually speak of collective farms as enforced by Stalin; they even assert that he deliberately starved millions of peasants to make them join collectives. This is untrue. I travelled the countryside those years and know what occurred. Stalin certainly promoted the change and guided it. But the drive for collectivization went so much faster than Stalin planned that there were not enough machines ready for the farms, nor enough bookkeepers and managers. Hopeful inefficiency combined with a panic slaying of livestock under kulak urging, and with two dry years, brought serious food shortage in 1932, two years after Stalin's alleged pressures. Moscow brought the country through by stern nationwide rationing.


Bourgeois propaganda to discredit Stalin has gotten to the heads of many comrades here. I urge everybody to take the time to study the links I have posted.

[Sam_b]

Bourgeois propaganda to discredit Stalin

Which every Stalinist uses thoroughly in order not to answer the very serious charges made at Stalin and his legacy. It's nothing more than a complete cop-out.

Or was the Holodomor just another 'bourgeois lie'?

[Catbus]

I've never read The Stalin Era, but one passage sort of caught my attention.


But the drive for collectivization went so much faster than Stalin planned that there were not enough machines ready for the farms, nor enough bookkeepers and managers.

Then why does every other historian agree that the original numbers of peasents that went to work at the collective farms was not enough to sustain them properly? Why did Stalin have to make it mandatory to work in them? And please don't tell me that it's more borgeouis propaganda. And why the hell would he need managers? Isn't that a little borgeouis? It's definitely not self-managed, which seemed to be one of the main aims of Communism from the get go.


Or was the Holodomor just another 'bourgeois lie'?

Apparently it was...

[Winter]

Which every Stalinist uses thoroughly in order not to answer the very serious charges made at Stalin and his legacy. It's nothing more than a complete cop-out.

Or was the Holodomor just another 'bourgeois lie'?

I answered the charges by using that quote.

Strong lived in the Soviet Union when this all happened. The book was published in 1956 and is out of print. Why is it out of print? Do you really think those in charge want this information brought to the publics attention?

I can literally give you guys a magic video off of youtube showing actual events in the USSR during those days and you still wont believe it. I think it's safe to say alot of you have "Stalinphobia".

I will not post anymore info on the subject because it is trully useless. Nobody takes the time to read up on the subject and everybodies mind is already made up.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

^^^Seems like yours is, too.

[#FF0000]

Everything I hear about Stalin, I take with a grain of salt. I don't believe he intentionally killed so many people. I don't believe the Holodomor was an intentional genocide. I don't think of Stalin as a mass murderer. Just an amazing fuck-up, at the very worst, who made the bad mistakes in conditions that turned those bad mistakes into catastrophic fuck-ups.

That sort of ends at the Gulags and executions and his ham-handed purges though. I think he was a dick with all that.

Lenin too.

[Wanted Man]

That may be true but anyone who commanded the Red Army could have defeated the Nazis.
I think that's a bit much. The Wehrmacht were not girl scouts. It's not a cakewalk.

[spice756]

The food shortage was that Stalin thought people where hiding food and starve them to turn the food over.There are lots of different stories on this.


intentionally killed
He killed people who where counterrevolutionary or threat to him or the state.Even communist party members.There where prison and forced labor.

But the economy inprove under him and the standard of living inprove .Everyone one had a house and there was no poor people.

And women life improve alot and help out alot in society.The country had only farms he built factories all over the place.He set up a 8 hour work day later on.

[#FF0000]

The food shortage was that Stalin thought people where hiding food and starve them to turn the food over.There are lots of different stories on this.

You're referring to the Holodomor?



He killed people who where counterrevolutionary or threat to him or the state.Even communist party members.There where prison and forced labor.

This I won't argue. Stalin regularly purged those he felt were opportunists or counter-revolutionary. Somtimes he was right. Sometimes he ended up executing, exiling, or imprisoning completely innocent people.

[spice756]

You're referring to the Holodomor?


There was food shortage from time to time it was not a one deal shot.But the Holodomor was very bad.

[Harrycombs]

Here's some links! Time to do some homework :D

Stalin info: http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/

Cuba: http://www.cubatruth.org/

Once again, I strongly suggest reading these!

Stalin wasn't nearly as bad as a lot of people make him out to be. Overall, I think he had a positive impact on society.

[Charles Xavier]

Everytime you talk to someone Stalin killed more people. 1 million 7 million 13 million 25 million 50 million 60 million and some people even say 100 million. What are their primary sources? Where are the mass graves? Where are the gas chambers? Where are the guards of the death chambers? Where are the photos? Where are the documents in the Soviet Archives? Who reported what was reported when it was comptempory? Why would Stalin want to kill millions of people? Honestly they just make up number. The already fictitious numbers get inflated to lunacy. And to say the actions of Stalin caused the deaths? How so? what orders did he dictate. He controlled everyone in the Soviet Union? There of course were the soviet people who were responsible for the actions of the Soviet Union why don't they speak up?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

HarryC:


Stalin wasn't nearly as bad as a lot of people make him out to be. Overall, I think he had a positive impact on society.

I'm afraid, many here regard Stalin as little better than Hitler, if that.

And we view those like GeorgeD here, who defend this monster, as little better than Holocaust deniers.

But, politically, it is the bureaucratic regime he represented that we despise, not the so much the figurehead.

[Sendo]

Cuba looks like a wonderful place. When I see documentaries on Cuba (99.9% of the time banned in the US) it looks great, clean, cultured, and full of life. Yes, I'm romanticizing it, but it remains that their poverty is not their own fault and that people are provided for. The people are happy. Well, they want the government opened up more, and they would like more consumer goods and services, but overall they'd rather keep their revolutionary gains than become capitalist. If it was such a stinkhole, then there would be another uprising, u there hasn't--only CIA goons and terrorists.

Plus, Cuban tobacco owns all.

[Ismail]

HOLY SHIT STALIN KILLED COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS!

We all know that, due to being Communist Party members, these guys are totally loyal to Communism. The Mensheviks, Gorbachev, Lin Biao, Palmiro Togliatti, Earl Browder, etc. Nevermind the fact that these people were not, in fact, loyal to Communism and that revisionism is dangerous since it gains support from below due to a lack of knowledge about Communism. This was particularly eviddent in places like the Turkmen SSR where everyone only went to councils and stuff because local party leaders would blackmail them if they didn't, and no debates were held because no one knew a damn thing. The head guy in the local areas just said "I think you guys should vote this way... FOR THE TURKMEN!" and it was done.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

In fact, his regime killed more communists than Hitler did.

[Catbus]

I think that's a bit much. The Wehrmacht were not girl scouts. It's not a cakewalk.

Ok, I phrased that wrong. What I meant was that the defeat of the Nazis isn't something that redeems him because I'm sure there were other leaders that could have also done the same thing. I didn't literally mean that any average joe could walk up and command an army to a victory.

[Ratatosk]

and when they tell me that cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world? i know things but i want to learn more..They must have simply made that claim up - either that or they are so idiotic as to apply first world standards to developing countries (which include most of the world's population). The response I would go for is to compare the living standards on Cuba with other countries in the region, say, Guatemala or Nicaragua.

[Ismail]

In fact, his regime killed more communists than Hitler did.How do you figure that? In Nazi Germany, Communists were killed simply for being Communists. In the Soviet Union, the vast majority of people had little knowledge on Communism and thus weren't Communists, although they generally approved what was going on with industrialization and such. So unless every single person in Stalin's "death toll" is for some reason counted as a Marx-and-Lenin-reading Communist, I think you're incorrect.

[chegitz guevara]

what do i have to response when they tell me that stalin killed over 25 million people? and when they tell me that cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world? i know things but i want to learn more..

First off, we need to come to grips with the number of people who died during the Stalin period. It's true around twenty nine million people died while Stalin was in charge, but twenty five million of them died from 1941-45. There was an event occurring at the that time, really big an important, made an awful mess, that person might have heard of it: World War Two. Those 25,000,000 ought properly be laid at the feet of Hitler, along with all the rest of the European war dead, some forty million in all (which includes the victims of the Holocaust).

That leaves us about four million people. Slightly less than one million people were executed during the Purges. Most of them were Communists, which is why the Mensheviks in exile approved of the Purges, only asking that Stalin add his corpse to the pile when he was through.

During the Holodomor, which lasted from 1932-34, according to the Soviet archives, 3.3 million people died above and beyond normal. The Soviet government was aware of the famine, and continued its policy of grain requisitions, and disrupting production by collectivizing the farms. Only towards the end did the state begin to provide relief.

Regardless of the fact that we are only talking about 4,000,000 human beings, which is a small number only when compared to the numbers anticommunists usually bandy about, it is a staggering number. In response you should point out America's own extremely bloody history, killing 2.7 million American Indians, well over a million Americans in the Civil War (civilian deaths are unknown, but over 600,000 soldiers died), as well as all the people we've killed in all the wars and coups we've been responsible for. Noam Chomsky and John Stockwell put the figure at ten million deaths for which the United States was responsible from 1945 to 1990. Since then, we've killed at least two million more Iraqis alone. In addition, capitalism kills over ten million children a year world wide simply because those children have no value to capitalism. In a single decade, capitalism kills more people than the wildest anticommunist fantasies concoct about communism. Then point out the Cuba has one of the longest life expectancies in the world, and that following Mao's victory in China, the life span of the average Chinese rose from 35 to 65. As horrorify as the Stalinist and Maoist experiences may have been, compared to capitalism people's lives improved vastly. Now imagine if those countries had een democratic, instead of dictatorships. Can you imagine what we could have accomplished?

As for Cuba, when people bring it up, ask them to compare it to Jamaica, Haiti, the Domincan Republic, Puerto Rico, Mexico, etc. It may be poor, bu they share what they have, so the poor there live better than the poor in the rest of the Carribean.

[chegitz guevara]

How do you figure that? In Nazi Germany, Communists were killed simply for being Communists. In the Soviet Union, the vast majority of people had little knowledge on Communism and thus weren't Communists, although they generally approved what was going on with industrialization and such. So unless every single person in Stalin's "death toll" is for some reason counted as a Marx-and-Lenin-reading Communist, I think you're incorrect.

According to Michael Parenti's, Black Shirts and Reds, Stalin's government killed nearly a million people during the purges. Most of those folks were members of the Communist Party. Two thirds of the delegates to the 1932 CPSU congress were purged and executed. Of the original central committee, by 1941, only two members out of about twenty still lived, the rest having died either of natural causes or were executed. In the 1930s and 40s, the most dangerous place in the world to be a Communists was the USSR.

[Sprinkles]

what do i have to response when they tell me that stalin killed over 25 million people?

Read enough about the subject from different angles so you can make up your mind for yourself before you try and answer that to anyone else.



and when they tell me that cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world? i know things but i want to learn more..
That's just factually incorrect, you could google "The Cuba Truth Project" which has some interesting fact to disprove this, for example:
"The UN recently announced that Cuba is the only country in Latin America that has no malnutrition" or that "Cuba is among the top five Latin American countries in protein and calorie intake."

Examples like this indicate Cuba is certainly not one the poorest countries of Latin-America let alone one of the poorest countries in the world. It's a shame that Cuba's GDP isn't recorded by the World Bank or the IMF which would make comparisons easier between other Latin-American countries and even have the information provided and verified by a hostile source.

[Sprinkles]

How do you figure that? In Nazi Germany, Communists were killed simply for being Communists. In the Soviet Union, the vast majority of people had little knowledge on Communism and thus weren't Communists, although they generally approved what was going on with industrialization and such. So unless every single person in Stalin's "death toll" is for some reason counted as a Marx-and-Lenin-reading Communist, I think you're incorrect.


This is such a load of semantics. I mean, if your statement that "In the Soviet Union, the vast majority of people had little knowledge on Communism and thus weren't Communists" isn't an utter condemnation of the complete lack of any worthwhile connection that Stalinism as a political movement had with the working class, or even of being a working class movement, I don't know what is.

Also "well technically they didn't read Marx and Lenin" so you can't really add their deaths to this particular body-count is pretty macabre all things considered.

[Valeofruin]

what do i have to response when they tell me that stalin killed over 25 million people?

It depends if you wish to enter a big debate over William Hearst, Naziism, and Ukraine.

If you seek a simple answer ask them to present the bodies.

When they can physically account for all the people they claimed died, then I may hear what they have to say.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ismail:


How do you figure that?

Your argument seems to be that if person X was killed by the Stalin terror regime, he/she can't have been a communist. And yet, the facts suggest otherwise (as the comrades above have shown).

Moreover, had it not been for the lunatic policies of the Stalin regime, Hitler would never have got into power in Germany to begin with.

[Valeofruin]

According to Michael Parenti's, Black Shirts and Reds, Stalin's government killed nearly a million people during the purges. Most of those folks were members of the Communist Party. Two thirds of the delegates to the 1932 CPSU congress were purged and executed. Of the original central committee, by 1941, only two members out of about twenty still lived, the rest having died either of natural causes or were executed. In the 1930s and 40s, the most dangerous place in the world to be a Communists was the USSR.

Sure, Purging reactionary elements is what strengthens the party. However "purging" doesn't equate to murder.

If of course you believe that all the people purged from the party were murdered, you're always welcome to proove it.



And yet, the facts suggest otherwise (as the comrades above have shown).


What Facts? I see plenty of opinions, and "first hand accounts" from hardly credible sources. I see plenty of bloated statistics, but no facts.


That may be true but anyone who commanded the Red Army could have defeated the Nazis. Plus that's hardly justifies the purges and collective farming.

Anyone of course accept Leon Trotsky, as under his economic proposals the USSR would have still bee busy trying to catch up to the rest of Europe economically when the Nazi's came rolling across the border.

[chegitz guevara]

Sure, Purging reactionary elements is what strengthens the party. However "purging" doesn't equate to murder.

If of course you believe that all the people purged from the party were murdered, you're always welcome to proove it.

No, it's true, purging doesn't equate with murder. Of course, most of those purged were murdered. Also, if 2/3rds of the party are reactionary elements, including 90% of the top leadership, then communism has some serious issues.

Let me see what I can dig up.


Anyone of course accept Leon Trotsky, as under his economic proposals the USSR would have still bee busy trying to catch up to the rest of Europe economically when the Nazi's came rolling across the border.Perhaps. But perhaps the Nazis wouldn't have come rolling across the border for a number of reasons: Hitler might not have taken power if Stalin's highly sectarian "social-fascist" policy hadn't prevented the social democrats and communists from uniting to fight that threat, the defeat of the fascists in Spain might have been more likely, the general strikes in Great Britain and France might have succeeded, there would have been no Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Red Army might not have had its best elements purged, the Soviets might have expected a war, rather than being caught off guard. Stalin's industrialization plan certainly made it possible for the Soviets to fight off the Nazis, but his other policy's made the Nazi invasion inevitable. I can't give credit for one and not the other.

As it is, the USSR needed the help of the Western imperialists to survive. It was only through the massive infusion of Western aid that the Soviets were able to defeat the Nazis, as evidenced by this picture I love.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/Russian/russian_tanks.sized.jpg

That Sherman tank reads, in Russian, "Death to the German occupiers" note the beautiful red flag on the tank and the Soviet tankers standing upon it.

[Valeofruin]

And so Trotsky would have avoided catastrophe by.... handing Germany over to the Social Facists? I see...

[chegitz guevara]

Even accepting that mischaracterization of what I wrote, are you really trying to argue that the Social Democratic Party was equal to the Nazis?

[Valeofruin]

Even accepting that mischaracterization of what I wrote, are you really trying to argue that the Social Democratic Party was equal to the Nazis?

No, but i will argue that "Unity" would have meant victory for that party, conceeding to their Liberal Ideals and Opportunist elements, and ultimately just trading out for a lesser evil, it would be a loss for the proletariat movement, and would probably greatly weaken our cause in Germany at the time. If Unity could be achieved, and at the same time a victory for the proletariat obtained i would be gung ho for it.

Any political alliance that damages the Proletariat movement is an alliance I want no part of.

One of my favorite quotes by Lenin reguarding the opportunists of his time:

"We are marching in a compact group along a precipitous and difficult path, firmly holding each other by the hand. We are surrounded on all sides by enemies, and we have to advance almost constantly under their fire. We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighbouring marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation. And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the marsh. In fact, we think that the marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don’t clutch at us and don’t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are “free” to go where we please, free to fight not only against the marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the marsh!"- V. I. Lenin ("What is to be Done?")

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Valeofruin:


What Facts? I see plenty of opinions, and "first hand accounts" from hardly credible sources. I see plenty of bloated statistics, but no facts.

As I noted in an earlier post: you Stalin-worshippers are no better than Holocaust deniers. They too say things like this.

[Valeofruin]

Valeofruin:



As I noted in an earlier post: you Stalin-worshippers are no better than Holocaust deniers. They too say things like this.

With 1 key difference, I can prove the Nazi's are liars. We have camps, we have bodies, mass graves, modern forensics, written documentation, endless confessions.

No real evidence exists however suggesting that Stalin is guilty of all he is accused.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

V:


I can prove the Nazi's are liars. We have camps, we have bodies, mass graves, modern forensics, written documentation, endless confessions.

No real evidence exists however suggesting that Stalin is guilty of all he is accused.

You dig yourself deeper, for this is precisely what holocaust deniers say.

[Winter]

You dig yourself deeper, for this is precisely what holocaust deniers say.

Holocaust deniers say, "With 1 key difference, I can prove the Nazi's are liars. We have camps, we have bodies, mass graves, modern forensics, written documentation, endless confessions. No real evidence exists however suggesting that Stalin is guilty of all he is accused."???

Wouldn't they be contradicting themselves?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Winter:


Holocaust deniers say, "With 1 key difference, I can prove the Nazi's are liars. We have camps, we have bodies, mass graves, modern forensics, written documentation, endless confessions. No real evidence exists however suggesting that Stalin is guilty of all he is accused."???

Wouldn't they be contradicting themselves?

Well spotted -- but I rather think you know what I mean.

[Valeofruin]

You've made no point at all whatsoever.

Show me where holocaust deniers found these supposedly up to 50 million magical disappearing corpses.

I can show you the proof that the haulocaust happened, i can show you the graves, the bullets, the gas chambers.

Even if a nazi claimed they could show graves in the Soviet Union that they didn't create, they would simply be doing something called "Flat out lieing" because no such evidence exists,

Learn what your talking about and get back to me, try googling mass graves in the soviet union, read about the evidence showing that 97% of the graves they've uncovered so far in all their years of searching, have been proven to be the work of Nazi killing squads, and make it your mission to account for the supposed hundreds of thousands of "Holodomer graves", and see how many of the Facist and capitalist accusations against Stalin you can actually prove with hard facts.

You may be able to account for 600,000 deaths in the Soviet Union, up until the 1970's. Out of which theres no way to tell which ones died of natural causes and which died of the supposed genocide, that noone seems to be able to actually prove took place.

Ill admit there was famine, there was war, and alot of people died. But what i wont acknowledge is the existence of any sort of mass starvation imposed by the soviet government, the existence of any sort of death camps, or that all of the people that were perhaps executed by firing squad were all in fact innocent. Nor will i recognize any kind of exhagerated number stemming into the tens of millions, that cant be backed up with any kind of evidence whatsoever.

[Sam_b]

Its stuff like this that reminds me of how much I detest Stalin and the lbind followers of so-called 'Marxist-Leninism'.

[Valeofruin]

Its stuff like this that reminds me of how much I detest Stalin and the lbind followers of so-called 'Marxist-Leninism'.

Then why do you follow the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine? A Marxist-Leninist organization?

[Sam_b]

I wouldn't say they were Marxist-Leninist in the sense of that being used as a by-word for Stalinism. There sure as hell isn't as much of a cult of personality complex compared to some people on here. I would say they were a Marxist organisation.

But, ultimately, your question is a false one; especially considering the national liberation movements in the Middle East. I don't support the reactionaries that head Hamas, but do I support the working class militants who organise within it to oppose Israeli aggression? Of course I do.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

V:


Show me where holocaust deniers found these supposedly up to 50 million magical disappearing corpses.

I can show you the proof that the haulocaust happened, i can show you the graves, the bullets, the gas chambers.

Where have I mentioned these '50 million'?

And, I note once more, that you argue just like holocaust deniers do -- they say similar things about the gas chambers and the numbers of those who died.

I agree that the holocaust happened (indeed I lost over 60 relatives in it), but then so did the mass killings under Stalin. You inconsistently accept one, but deny the other.

[Valeofruin]

I wouldn't say they were Marxist-Leninist in the sense of that being used as a by-word for Stalinism. There sure as hell isn't as much of a cult of personality complex compared to some people on here. I would say they were a Marxist organisation.

But, ultimately, your question is a false one; especially considering the national liberation movements in the Middle East. I don't support the reactionaries that head Hamas, but do I support the working class militants who organise within it to oppose Israeli aggression? Of course I do.

Their founding fathers and documents would disagree with you.

As for cults of personality, we all have them:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/503617430_0ed833d9e1.jpg?v=1179588952

Essentially you detest Marxism-Leninism, but acknowledge they are fighters for the working class, and stand by us in our struggle.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This is all rather tedious, since it has been thrashed out thoroughly here several times; for example here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/crimes-stalin-t5196/index.html?highlight=Crimes+Stalin

[Sam_b]

Posters which the PFLP produce, often to commemmorate fallen comrades, certainly does not equate to the glorification of people like Stalin.

I aknowledge that the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class, not that some school of socialist thought and practice is leading or playing some kind of vanguard as of yet. I give my support the the comrades and working class allies in Palestine fighting against imperialism, much more than I would someone from Pennsylvania who will not aknowledge Uncle Joe's murderous regime because he hasn't seen some bodies.

[Valeofruin]

This is all rather tedious, since it has been thrashed out thoroughly here several times; for example here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/crimes-stalin-t5196/index.html?highlight=Crimes+Stalin

Yet the claims still have no substance, there is still no physical proof. Listing hte crimes of stalin and presenting some excerpts that hint to them is hardly the same as proving it.


Posters which the PFLP produce, often to commemmorate fallen comrades, certainly does not equate to the glorification of people like Stalin.

I aknowledge that the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class, not that some school of socialist thought and practice is leading or playing some kind of vanguard as of yet. I give my support the the comrades and working class allies in Palestine fighting against imperialism, much more than I would someone from Pennsylvania who will not aknowledge Uncle Joe's murderous regime because he hasn't seen some bodies.

Good then im glad to hear we can reach a compromise on that front, you DO support a Marxist-Leninist movement.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

V:


Yet the claims still have no substance, there is still no physical proof. Listing hte crimes of stalin and presenting some excerpts that hint to them is hardly the same as proving it.

You can judge this without reading that thread can you?

[chegitz guevara]

:lol:

[spice756]

Show me where holocaust deniers found these supposedly up to 50 million magical disappearing corpses.

I can show you the proof that the haulocaust happened, i can show you the graves, the bullets, the gas chambers.


There are pictures of corpses and graves.Check out youtube on it.I seen it the other day.

Has for the number I don't think we will ever know the right number how many people killed under Stalin.

Keep in mind the 5 yaer plan was good but the goals was too high and people could not meet their quota and where killed.

And the peasants who slaughter of millions of farm animals that would not give up to the state did not help .The rich Kulaks was big problem.But at least Stalin free up the bondslaves and landowners .And put the Kulaks in jail.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, there are similar things with respect to the holocaust, but that does not stop the deniers, and it won't phase the Stalin lovers either.

[Valeofruin]

There are pictures of corpses and graves.Check out youtube on it.I seen it the other day.

Has for the number I don't think we will ever know the right number how many people killed under Stalin.

Keep in mind the 5 yaer plan was good but the goals was too high and people could not meet their quota and where killed.

And the peasants who slaughter of millions of farm animals that would not give up to the state did not help .The rich Kulaks was big problem.But at least Stalin free up the bondslaves and landowners .And put the Kulaks in jail.

Its been proven that some of those photos are doctored and mis attributed.

Remember the Nazis killed up to 5 million in the USSR as well, often times people use pictures of well known Nazi Grave sites and mis-attribute them to Stalin for propaganda purposes.

In addition the total number of bodies found in the soviet union isn't even as high as what "Historians" estimate the Nazi's did, yet alone enough to confirm the myths about Stalin.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Spice -- told you!:lol:

[communard resolution]

Remember the Nazis killed up to 5 million in the USSR as well, often times people use pictures of well known Nazi Grave sites and mis-attribute them to Stalin for propaganda purposes.


Not that this would weaken your point, but did the Soviet Union not actually lose 20 Mio to the Nazis?

[chegitz guevara]

Valeofruin, could you explain how the Nazis carried out mass atrocities in Siberia and the Far East?

[chegitz guevara]

Not that this would weaken your point, but did the Soviet Union not actually lose 20 Mio to the Nazis?

Twenty five million, actually, but I suspect Valeofruin is referring to those specifically massacred, not merely war dead.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Come on comrades; be fair!

When communists in the former USSR were killed in their tens of thousands by Stalinist bullets, this actually improved their health (unity of opposites, and all that...).:rolleyes:

[spice756]

In addition the total number of bodies found in the soviet union isn't even as high as what "Historians" estimate the Nazi's did, yet alone enough to confirm the myths about Stalin.


Well how many have they found? But all web sites the numbers keep changing and I don't think the people in government really know the right number.

[Black Sheep]

what do i have to response when they tell me that stalin killed over 25 million people? and when they tell me that cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world? i know things but i want to learn more..Firstly, there is a contradiction when discussing actions taken by socialist states and their General Secretaries.

Correct me if i am wrong, but:
In Ussr,theoretically, every decision sent downwards by the Central Committee had to be approved by the soviets by a majority vote,and the delegates would confirm or vote down that course of action,right?

-If that was the way the system worked,then judging the GC about this or that course of action is an incorrect approach.
-If the Ussr functioned under the holy word of the GC,then it was not a socialist state.

edit:
also,
what do i have to response when they tell me that [...]

It's not like, 'what do i have to respond'..it is about learning the facts.Following and supporting an ideological current without knowing what it is and not approving it after careful judgement and critical thinking is silly IMO.You are not a PR executive for Marxism-Leninism, Inc or Leftist Current incorporated.
If you do not know the answer to a question,then just respond 'i do not know' and don't try to defend it when you are ignorant on the subject with strawmans.

I am sorry if i sound aggressive,it is not my intention,but i get very pissed about fanatics and childish supporters of this or that ideology, who can't confront arguments and start rambling unrelated stuff (no, i am not talking about you btw).

In a nutshell,keep in mind always that the branch of leftism you follow could be 'wrong' (i am not talking about M-L,but generally), and for that don't get too passionate about it until you learn,learn and learn more about it.