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Mindtoaster
21st September 2008, 23:29
The Following article speculates that the reduction of sectarian violence in Iraq has been caused due to ethnic cleansing and not the troop surge.


A study of the Pentagon's satellite imagery concludes that ethnic cleansing -- not last year's surge of U.S. military forces -- is the main factor in the reduction of violence in Iraq.

The report's conclusion about the surge's ineffectiveness (http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1953066020080919) are supported by many Iraq experts and international organizations who credit a population shift with the decline of sectarian violence, especially in Baghdad, Reuters reported.

Conducted by the University of California, the study analyzed the use of nighttime light across Baghdad and how it changed before, during and after the surge. It's findings show only some neighborhoods have higher levels of output, suggesting the others had been ethnically cleansed (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/19/study-ethnic-surge/) before the surge.

"By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement.

"Essentially, our interpretation is that violence has declined in Baghdad because of intercommunal violence that reached a climax as the surge was beginning," said Agnew, who studies ethnic conflict.

In other words, ethnic violence did the job before American soldiers got the chance. (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/9825)

Sectarian violence between Baghdad's neighborhoods has been documented by an independent commission (http://media.csis.org/isf.pdf) that correlates with much of the report's findings.

But FP Passport, a foreign policy blog, offered several caveats (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/9825) to its conclusion. For example, the blog asks why there were also security improvements outside the capital in places such as Anbar province?

Republican presidential nominee John McCain has long criticized (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliza-margarita-bates-and-cara-zwerling/mccain-obama-on-iraq-afgh_b_127374.html) his opponent Sen. Barack Obama for not having backed the surge, which McCain boasts as the single factor in the reduction of violence.

CNN Security Analyst Peter Bergen disagrees. (http://politicalmpressions.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/money-not-surge/)

"...oth the Democrats and the Republicans have been overemphasizing the surge. If it was just about the surge, the violence would be back up again because the surge is over."

In a speech last July, McCain said, "It is precisely the success of the surge in Iraq that shows us the way to succeed in Afghanistan," but one country has very little to do with the other, Slate.com reported.

A recent military analysis (http://www.slate.com/id/2200406/) posits that a surge of troops in Afghanistan, where rising violence has drawn the attention of U.S. forces, will not succeed. The article contends U.S. military leaders do not adequately understand the country's situation.

Which is exactly what the study of ethnic cleansing suggested about commanders in Iraq.

The first sentence of the University of California's summary, written by co-author Thomas Gillespie, says this:

"Geographers and social scientists find it increasingly difficult to intervene in debates about vital matters of public interest, such as the Iraq war, because of the ideological polarization and [B]lack of respect for empirical analysis that have afflicted US politics in recent years." Emphasis added.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/080918_nightlights54.jpg





It seems a tad far fetched if you ask me. What do comrades think?

Winter
21st September 2008, 23:53
Ethnic cleansing is the wrong word for this. Imagine living in a war torn nation, wouldn't you flee? You really don't have much of a choice, flee or be killed either by friendly fire or enemies. Plus, this article doesn't exactly say who are the ones performing the "ethnic cleansing". The article claims that it wasn't the U.S. military, well then, who?

Martin Blank
22nd September 2008, 00:35
It's not far-fetched. It's one of the dirty secrets of the Iraq occupation, and the U.S. is behind much of it. The "surge" was sold as a means of "reducing violence" in Iraq. One of the key ways they went about achieving this "reduction", according to people we know in Iraq, was through the use and egging on of sectarian militias (both through provocations and bribes). When an area saw significant "reduction" of "violence", the U.S. forces would march in and conduct a mopping-up operation, and then declare "victory". This is how we got to the point of elements like McCain and Obama talking about the "success" of the "surge". All it took was the ethnic cleansing of the one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the Middle East.

Module
22nd September 2008, 00:50
I confess I don't know very much about Iraq, so I don't know if this is an obvious question :p but, I don't understand from this article, who is doing the ethnic cleansing?
But no, it doesn't sound too far fetched. Of course the US would over emphasise the surge, they need a continuing excuse for their involvement.

Mindtoaster
22nd September 2008, 01:53
Ethnic cleansing is the wrong word for this. Imagine living in a war torn nation, wouldn't you flee? You really don't have much of a choice, flee or be killed either by friendly fire or enemies. Plus, this article doesn't exactly say who are the ones performing the "ethnic cleansing". The article claims that it wasn't the U.S. military, well then, who?

I think it was refrencing the sunni vs shi'ite militias

Mindtoaster
22nd September 2008, 02:27
Oh, and another note.

I made the title pretty misleading, I was being stupid and wanted it to be "Is the reduction in fighting in Iraq caused by ethinic cleansing" but I figured that'd be a tad too long for the title.

So my real question is:

Do comrades think the reduction in violence in Iraq equated to the troop surge is actually a result of the Sunni/Shi'ite fighting?

Sendo
22nd September 2008, 02:50
The violence was coming down anyway and the US coordinated a bribing effort in conjunction with a surge so they could take credit for the fact that violence slowed (due to cleansed neighborhoods, depopulation, extermination).

Hiero
22nd September 2008, 03:34
Can you provide a link to the news aritcle or at least source.

Winter
22nd September 2008, 04:17
It's not far-fetched. It's one of the dirty secrets of the Iraq occupation, and the U.S. is behind much of it. The "surge" was sold as a means of "reducing violence" in Iraq. One of the key ways they went about achieving this "reduction", according to people we know in Iraq, was through the use and egging on of sectarian militias (both through provocations and bribes). When an area saw significant "reduction" of "violence", the U.S. forces would march in and conduct a mopping-up operation, and then declare "victory". This is how we got to the point of elements like McCain and Obama talking about the "success" of the "surge". All it took was the ethnic cleansing of the one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the Middle East.

The information CL has given is very informative. These really seem like the tactics of thugs and manipulators and not the tactics of "the land of the free". The masses need to understand this is the type of scary methods our government is using. Mind sharing a link with more information CL? Thanks.



Do comrades think the reduction in violence in Iraq equated to the troop surge is actually a result of the Sunni/Shi'ite fighting?

I think it is a mix of both, but more on the side of sectarian fighting. Obviously if you send a bunch of military men with advanced weapons to wipe out people with second rate weapons, there will be fewer Iraqis to cause violence. Of course, we all know the consequences, aka, blowback, of invasion and strain the U.S. government is putting on the Iraqi people will cause. Is it really any wonder why the vast majority of the world hates the U.S.?

So, is the surge working? Yes. It's working greatly if you consider planting seeds of hatred for the U.S. in the minds and hearts of the Iraqi people as it's goal.

Saorsa
22nd September 2008, 04:50
Do comrades think the reduction in violence in Iraq equated to the troop surge is actually a result of the Sunni/Shi'ite fighting?

It's a major factor. There's no organised, structured resistance movement in Iraq with a central leadership and a common program or at least set of goals, comparable to the NLF in Vietnam. This is in no small part due to the divide and rule tactics taken by the US since they arrived there, an age old imperialist method.

While a centrally led, organised resistance isn't absolutely necessary to drive out foreign invader, as the experience of the Mujahideen proves in Afghanistan, unless you have the massive financial backing of a rival imperialist bloc like the mujahideen did, a disorganised and divided resistance movement cannot win a military victory.

The US will have to pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq eventually, and it will leave defeated, but this won't happen any time soon.

Mindtoaster
22nd September 2008, 05:25
Can you provide a link to the news aritcle or at least source.

My bad

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Satellite_images_show_ethnic_cleansing_source_0919 .html